Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    There are absolutely no justifications in spanking, hitting, or
    withholding dinner from our children.  This parent is taking out
    their OWN frustrations, and they are ignorant to any other way
    to handle a frustrating situation.  Like I have heard before,
    are you hitting your child to make a point, or does it relieve
    your OWN tension.  Hitting children also does nothing for their
    self-esteem, which is a key to an emotionally healthy child.
    
    Remember, always count to ten before hitting your child.  You
    may change your mind after you're calm and think up some other
    form of discipline.  Like withholding dessert, instead of dinner.

...it just lets the adult vent his or her frustration.

I am not a parent, but I have been reading some interesting literature on this
subject.  A VERY interesting book I HIGHLY recommend on this subject is
	"For Your Own Good:  Hidden Cruelty in Child-rearing Practices"
	by Alice Miller.

I may have the sub-heading slightly incorrect, by the way;  I don't have the
book sitting in front of me right now.

I just finished reading this book.  Alice Miller describes what she calls the
"poisonous pedagogy" of child-rearing.  Basically, she shows through research
and case-studies that many of our standard child disciplining techniques are
far more harmful than has ever been believed and that (as was stated in .1)
physical punishment (as well as emotional, mental, and psychological punishment)
is purely for the benefit of the adult who is doing to the child what was done
to him or her.  The book explores "How Hitler ever could have happened" as well
as other less famous case-studies.

If I ever have children, I am seriously going to examine my disciplining
techniques.

Sorry if I sound preachy;  I was AMAZED at this book.  Once again, I recommend
it HIGHLY.

Mary Ann

    My wife and myself have rose our two daugters who are now 23 (they were
    twins) using three concepts.
    		- Team spirit
    		- Respect
    		- Responsibility
    
    Team spirit means that within a family everyone is part of the team and
    must take his share of the team work load, there is no reward for
    doing so, apart from being considered as a member of the team! Of course
    it is the responsibility of the "team leader" to make the team
    attractive in such a way that people will feel rewarded to be members.
    
    Respect means that everybody regardless of his age or social position
    must be considered has "a person". Someday like anybody else there is
    things which I don't like or don't want to do, respecting others is
    understanding that they are entitled of the same behaviour, I have no
    right to use my position, as an adult, to force them to do things if
    they don't want; but this can work only if respect goes in both
    directions, which is I don't expect others to force me to do things
    they are responsible for; let me give an example: my daugters
    were 5 years old and one of their duty was to set up the table for
    dinner, one day we tell them " it is going to be time for dinner"
    implying that table should be set, but they prefered to keep playing.. my
    wife and myself waited for a while then we set the table FOR TWO
    and started our meal leaving the girls playing in their room, finally
    they got hungry and went into the dining room.. surprise... surprise
    man and dad are eating! AND THERE IS NOT PLATES FOR US!!! we explained
    "that it was their right not to participate but that it was our right
    not to do their task we where all equal...."  they then set up their
    own plates and had their dinner after all.. 18 years after they still
    remember the lesson.
    
    Responsibility probably the most important in the whole education is to
    make children responsible of themself FROM DAY ONE . We must always
    remember that knowledge comes mainly from experience and very rarely
    from teaching. Kids must make experiences good AND BAD, the bad
    experiences being even more important than the good ones. I once got
    involved, with my wife with an organisation helping people out of drugs
    our role was to house them for sometime when the organisation was
    lacking rooms. Talking to one of them he told me exactly that "Our
    parents have taken all the stones from our path..." meaning they have
    (tried to ) prevent even the beginning of a problem making their life
    dull and ininteresting ....What a lesson
    Another things we have to remember as parents, is that THERE IS NO TOO
    MUCH TIME, after 10 year old you will got what you have done! meaning 
    that the education is basically finished from this time on you will just 
    improve what you have done before but the core of the education is there 
    for ever. You must also realise that YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE not the schools,
    not outside organisations no one else but YOU is responsible of YOUR
    children education. The last point I would like to make is that
    children rarely care for welfare and they would probably prefer to have 
    mam at home ready to talk, explain, kiss... love; than to have a bigger, 
    nicer empty house! 
    I could speak a long time about education but I'm afraid my speech may
    not be always as clear as would like it to be, there is sometime things 
    more difficult to explain in a foreign langage than computer stuff!
    
    Regards
    jacques
         

    Wow, Jacques.  Nice note.
    
    A book I used with my children was called "The One Minute Scolding". 
    Don't let the title turn you off.  It was very effective,
    non-demeaning, non-abusive and positive.  My children hated it more
    than a spanking and respect me for using it.  They continue to feel
    that it was a significant event in life when I started using this
    technique.
    
    Essentially it involves the following steps:
    
    1) Without putting the child down, scold the child for the
    transgression, not longer than 15 seconds.  Let them know what they did
    wrong and why it is wrong.
    2) Take a deep breath, calm yourself.
    3) Explain what the appropriate behavior, action, etc is.
    4) Ask a series of questions:
    	a)Why am I scolding you?  A=they must tell you what they did wrong.
    	b)What should you have done? A=an appropriate response.
    	c)Why do I scold you? A=Because you love me and want me to learn to 
    	  behave responsibly. 
    	d)What will happen if you do this again? A=you will scold me.
    5) End on a positive note, ex: I know you were angry when you punched
    your sisters lights out, and you did not take the time to think about
    your actions, but you are a smart kid and I know you can find more
    appropriate ways to deal with you anger than hitting.
    6) hugs
    
    There is a lot of room for variation here, and it must be tailored to
    the situation.  Trust me, it works well (I can only speak about age 8
    and up because that is when I started using it).
    
    It was developed for use with emotionally disturbed kids and works well
    on all children.
    
    jimcjimc

    .0, I'm not sure what your first paragraph has to do with your second
    paragraph ("in the same way..." -- what way?), but I agree with .3
    almost entirely on each discussion.
    
    re your first para: in my family, household chores were age-appropriate
    and considered as "pulling your weight" in the family team.  No one
    gets paid for that.  Parent(s) pay for food, clothing, and incidentals
    until the child is old enough to have his/her first allowance, which is
    a very small amount (!) and pretty much discretionary (subject to
    parental veto).  The allowance gradually increases and takes on more of
    the child's needs (at about age 12, my allowance got a big hike--to
    cover clothing).  If a child wants more money (say, to save for a
    specified and approved goal), then s/he can contract for specified
    additional chores around the house, or ask for permission to do neigh-
    borhood jobs (raking leaves, shoveling snow, etc.).
    
    Your second para: I'd never withhold a meal, although I have many, many
    times truncated one abruptly due to intolerable behavior on the part of
    my adorable child!  At that point, she is told "your meal is over; no
    more food [just water or juice] til <next meal or snack time>."  And
    I'll echo the party line on spanking/hitting, except that I condone the
    occasional swat on a toddler's padded (diapered) butt.  Sometimes you
    just have to get their ATTENTION (I'll get flamed for this, no doubt)! 
    I can hear everyone screaming "put her in Time Out", but the only way
    I'd ever be able to get Alex to *stay* in Time Out would be to strap
    her down, using square knots that were out of her reach.
    
    Leslie
    
    P.S.  You'll find mega-discussions on both your topics in NOTED::
    PARENTING.

    
    I'm sure this response will get a flame.  But I'm going to put it in
    anyway.
    
    I always swore I would NEVER say shut up to my children or spank them
    (beyond a "swat on the padded behind).  That was before I had my second
    son.  This child has been in counseling for two years.  We have tried
    all the above solutions.  With this son, the only thing that DOES work
    is "shut-up" when he keeps talking and ignoring all other attempts to
    get him to be quiet.
    
    As to the spanking, it is the only thing that sinks in.  I don't like
    it, don't want to have to use it.  Unfortunately, there are some
    children that have to be dealt with this way.
    
    I will say that the spankings are few and far between.  The behavior
    doesn't tend to get repeated.
    
    Now, I'm talking about a child that steals money (at 9 years old) from
    his mothers wallet.  No amount of counseling, talking, discipline of
    other sorts stopped the behaviour.  The threat of a spanking did!  And
    it's been months now.
    
    The spankings do not come after the first misdeemor (for lack of a
    better word).  It is usually after weeks of trying other avenues with
    no success.
    
    Faith
    

    I am not going to feel guilty for spanking my children.  I don't
    think children and parents are on the same level.  Spanking is very
    rarely used by me or their father, but it's not ruled out.  I don't
    think spankings should be done in the heat of anger but after
    punishment is decided upon.   Physical pain hurts, so does scolding
    or emotional pain.  Sometimes love hurts.  Sometimes physical pain
    is the correct measure.
    
    Women bear children in pain, supposedly as a consequence to original
    sin.  That pain is in love.     Maybe this is a wierd analogy.

    I'm confused.  First, why is it a truism that love has to be
    painful?  When did you start thinking that you were expected
    to feel guilty for spanking your children?  And why did you
    ask the question in the first place?  Your response seems
    quite defensive.  I'm wondering what you were looking for
    when you entered your base note.  

    May be I should give another try!
     Talking about spanking and hitting I, first, would like to ask a
    question: If you were/are a manager and one of your collaborator do
    something wrong will you spank or beat him? Probably not..so why would
    you do it to children? Aren't they human?
    
     Education is a matter of couple part of the education is performed by
    the father and part by the mother; the part which is (more or less.)
    performed by the father deal with social life and social integration
    and in this area there is no need to spank or hit to teach lesson, just
    make the child EXPERIENCE the problems: If a child steals just do the
    same to him steal his toys, candy ... something that he really like,
    and be a real thief; if you think you have stopped this behaviour just
    by physical punishment I am afraid you may be wrong (I hope not)
    because this will work as long as he will be afraid of the beating, but
    one day he will no longer be and then.... If he beats his younger syster
    again make him feel the social disgust about such an attitude, take the
    time to tell him tales (BTW when did you do it last time?) about good
    and bad... if he beat is boyfriend let THEM give the lesson. 
     The role of the mother in the education is more toward (again more or
    less) personnal behaviour, getting clean (for a baby), washing.... in
    this area experience may sometime be more difficult to apply, this for
    one and the fact that a mother is a very very special person, there is
    no level of intimity closer than the one between a mother and her
    children (when you have spend 9 month in some one else body you do have
    some intimity with that person don't you?),  makes spanking by mam a less
    important problem. A mother can spank and kiss at the same time without
    looking ridiculous mother spanks may bruise the body (rarely) they
    never bruise the soul, father spank may bruise both.
     All what I just said comes from the analysis I have made from my
    parents education, just to give you a flavor of it , let me tell you
    how my father stopped me from smoking when I was 15:
     The day my farther discovered that I have started smoking he called me
    and said: " If you want to smoke you can do openly it is your problem,
    the only thing is that, being a non smoker I don't want to be disturbed
    by your smoke.  Now I would like to add something... I have recently
    noticed that your seem to be more and more interested by the young
    ladies who live in the surrounding, this is normal behaviour and I have
    nothing against it. If I can provide you with a bit of my experience in
    this field which you have to admit is bigger then your, I would tell
    you that ladies are very much interested by boys and men when they are
    different if you are different they will come to see why your are like
    that. If you smoke you will be a smoker among smokers if you don't you
    will be different..and thing will be a little bit easier for what you
    are looking for..." I stopped smoking, and ever since I have tried to be
    or to look different ;-) 
     If you are interested in children behaviour I would recommend to read 
    FREE CHILDREN OF SUMMERHILL  by   ?.Neil

    Hitting absolutely not!! ( a spank on the arm once in a while wont hurt
    though).
    
    
    Chores, yes.  I always my specific chores when I was growing up,
    starting with keeping my bedroom clean, then moving up to vacuuming,
    dusting, ironing etc.  I think it is good for a child to do these type
    of things, it teaches them responsiblity and how to take care of
    possessions. There is nothing wrong with paying the child or giving him
    or her somekind of reward for doing these things.  They learn the
    value of a dollar and money does not grow on trees.
    
    Lynne ;-)

    Expected to feel guilty?  Parents are pressured by some in society
    to refrain from spanking their children by all kinds of subtle and
    not so subtle ways.  Whenever one exclaims that the way in which
    you raise your children is wrong, as a parent you tend to take on
    a denfensive attitude.  Methods of punishment for young children
    is something that I think about.  I was brought up under a very
    hard hand.  I was usually afraid from my father enough to refrain
    from whatever misdeed I was doing, 'cause I knew if I didn't a swift
    swing from a leather belt would tan my bare hide a few times.  That's
    the way he ruled.   He thought he was doing right.  Although his
    form of discipline is questionable, I know it wasn't out of meanness
    but love.  It hurts to discipline your child.  Whether it's a
    restriction from their anticipated party or a spanking.  I don't
    like to see my child sad.  But I know as a caring mother, I want to
    raise my children to contribute to our world in concerning fashion
    and I also want respect from them.  Discipline also takes time.
     Time away from whatever you're doing to handle a matter that needs
    reform.  You have to care.
    
    I asked this question, in the first place, more as something to
    ponder.  I'm not going through any personal turmoil, as you seem
    to suggest.  As a matter of fact, the question comes from a text
    book.
    
    One more thing about guilt!  Working mothers have been subtly "made"
    to feel guilty.  Maybe not so much now, but say about 10+/- years
    ago.  Society has a way of making a person question his morals over
    and over again as the times and the norms change.  Now, when a woman
    decides to stay home as homemaker, she's definetly looked down on.
     Just not the in thing right now.
    
    My 1st reply came after the parent that explained her methods with
    one of her children that she felt required a spanking as appropriate
    punishment.
    
    BTW, I never use a belt.  Just a pat on the behind, enough to let
    my kid know, that his behaviour was disobedient.  It's not like
    a spanking means it's going to cause bruises.  Geez.
    
    I wonder how a physical "hurt" punishment would effect criminals?
    instead of a lock-up?  Another question to ponder!

    
    You asked for "thoughts" so I will share mine with you.
    
    First, no one can "make" you feel guilty.  If you are secure
    in your decisions, than what others think, do, or say will 
    have no bearing on your own thoughts, actions, or words.  Rather,
    you will view it simply as a difference of opinion.
    
    Second, my "moral values" are not shaped by society.  My values
    are the product of my own observations and life experiences,
    tempered perhaps by thoughtfulness and digesting the input of
    others.  
    
    Finally, I feel very strongly about spanking children.  I too
    was raised in the "traditional" manner, with a belt or a slap
    being the answer to any misbehavior.  The best thing I can say
    about my mother as a role model is that, when it came time for
    me to be a parent, I sure knew what kind of parent NOT to be.
    So, I had to find my own solutions.
    
    I cannot imagine hitting someone I love, be it my child, my husband,
    or a friend.  This is not to say that the above never act in ways
    that annoy, frustrate or anger me.  Only that there are more civilized
    methods of dealing with conflict.
    
    My goal in life is to raise my son to be a healthy, happy, and
    responsible adult.  The best way to teach is by example.  I don't
    believe in punishment.  I do believe in discipline.  I believe in
    people-big ones and little ones-learning from the consequences of
    their actions.
    
    I will not tell you that I have never spanked Jamey.  I can think
    of two times-once when I caught him with a group of friends who
    were playing with firecrackers.  He had been told numerous times
    not to play with fireworks; and he wasn't-he was just observing.
    He and I were both a little stunned after I spanked his bottom.
    Afterwards, I realized that I had reacted out of fear.  My aunt
    lost the sight in one eye, from a firecracker.  When Jamey and I
    had settled down a little, I apologized and explained my actions.
    Hitting him was wrong. 
    
    And in my heart, I believe hitting a child is almost always wrong.
    I use the qualifier "almost" because, as one noter observed, there
    are exceptional children who do not respond to the usual methods.
    
    A noted psychologist and educator, Jim Fay, explains that physical
    punishment gives the kid an "out."  Instead of focussing on the
    misdeed, the child focusses his anger on the parent and on the pain.
    And is let off the hook.  Better to allow them to feel their own
    "pain" in the form of consequences.  
    
    Let me give you a splendid example:
    
    When Jamey was 4 years old, we went thru the usual morning ritual
    of me nagging him to "hurry up and get dressed" and he (being a 
    normal little boy) dragging his feet and playing with his toys.  By
    the time I got to work each morning, I was cranky and exhausted. 
    Until I listed to a tape by Jim Fay, and followed his approach. 
    That night I told Jamey "Tomorrow morning we're leaving at 7:30."
    The next morning, at 7:30, I said "It's time to go.  I don't want
    to be late for work."  Naturally, Jamey was still in his pajamas,
    but that was no problem. I just put his clothes in a paper bag,
    led him out to the car, and drove him to day care.  He somehow managed
    to get dressed in the car, despite his seat belt, by the time we
    arrived at the center.  From that day on (and it's been almost 8
    years) he has never been late in the morning.
    
    Well, I could go on and on with examples, but I fear I have already
    been long winded.  To sum it up, I just don't see any situation that
    has to be handled with physical punishment.  There are so many other
    ways, that are gentler and more considerate.  And I guess that's what
    I'd like to see change in our society. I would like to see children
    treated with courtesy, respect, and consideration, in the hopes that
    our next generation of adults will be courteous, respectful, and 
    considerate.
    
    

    Recently I read, but cannot remember where (maybe _Birth by Dr. Kevin   
    Leman?), that the one ["and only" is implied] mistake you can be sure
    you will *not* make is the ["most memorable" is implied] mistake 
    your parents made with you.
    
    I can vouch for that in my own parenting.
    
    aq
    
     

    Strong physical abuse is uncalled for but a spanking on the behind from
    a wrong doing....nothing wrong with that!!  When I was a camp
    counselor to a bunch of very spoiled kids that came from pretty weathly
    families that only care about spending a day at "the club"....some of
    them needed disapline badly and a spank on the butt would not have hurt
    them that is for sure, they needed it! Kids need some form of
    discipline to learn that they can't get their own way all the time.

    There is a vast difference between "punishment" and "discipline."
    No where have I stated that children do not need discipline.  A
    "spank on the butt" DOES hurt, not only in the physical sense, but
    also because it deprives them of the opportunity to learn
    selfdiscipline, and to learn from the consequences of their own
    actions.  
    
    I contend that no one "needs" to be hit.  
    
    Deborah
    

    Quite the contrary, the children DO learn from the consequences of their
    actions - if they continue whatever act they had committed, their butt
    will be spanked again.  Telling a 2 or 3 yr. old that it's bad to touch
    an electrical outlet is a good idea, but if he/she touches it anyway, a 
    slap on the wrist will usually send the message across.

       - Larry  

    About this consequence thing.  I once thought that if I wasn't "caught"
    then the consequence would be mild to null.  
    
    You learn to lessen the consequences by doing the misdeeds smarter.
     This could could work good and bad.
    
    Psyc 101 explains some interesting facts about discipline and
    punishment.       Rewards and punishment!
    
    Anyway, I wouldn't quite go so far as to condemn any parent's form
    of discipline.  Every family is different.  It's enough if the parent
    cares enough to discipline and wants to learn in the interest of
    their children.  This usually will curtail any cruel or unusual
    punishment. 
    
    

    A parent who deeply cares about their child will discipline the child
    when needed, hitting is not the only was too discipline a child. I
    remember something worse then a spanking.  When I was a kid and if I
    did something out of line, I used to have to put on my pjs right after
    school and when a freind came over to see if I could go outside, I had
    to answer the door, talk about major embarrassment!! ;-)

    When I was growing up, I had many a yard sticks broken on my butt. 
    I pray I will never treat my children to that kind of punishment,
    but I do think there are times when a slap is the best reprimand.
    Usually I will use a slap if the behaviour is dangerous.  I think
    a slap across the hand is a lot less harmful than the pain a child
    will feel if they play with plugs or stoves!    

>    Usually I will use a slap if the behaviour is dangerous.  I think
>    a slap across the hand is a lot less harmful than the pain a child
>    will feel if they play with plugs or stoves!    

I don't like anyone hitting a child , (or adult for that matter), in the face,
period.  There's something about hitting the face that goes deep and hurts
badly, emotionally.  Anyone that's been slapped knows this.

Saying that it's better than getting burned is like saying it's better to be
run over by a Honda Civic than an 18-wheeler, in my opinion.  

I haven't the time of day for anyone that slaps their child.  Might be tempted
to step in and slap the adult back though...

    There are times when the only thing a child will pay attention to
    is a slap.  My siblings and I were punished this way when we were
    very young (until we got bigger than my mom :-) ).  One rule my mom
    had was that we couldn't get hit above the neck.  After seeing what
    happens to boxers who get hit too often, that was a good rule.
    
    B.

>>    Usually I will use a slap if the behaviour is dangerous.  I think
>>    a slap across the hand is a lot less harmful than the pain a child
>>    will feel if they play with plugs or stoves!    

> I don't like anyone hitting a child , (or adult for that matter), in the face,
> period.  There's something about hitting the face that goes deep and hurts
> badly, emotionally.  Anyone that's been slapped knows this.
         
    
    Dwight,
    
       Re-read the reply.  The author said "a slap across the hand", not "a
    slap across the head".  I think you should retract your comments.
    
       - Larry

    
    
    	In all my 26 years, I can count on one hand how many times
    	my mother or father spanked me.  And I can honestly say that
    	when I look back at it, I deserved it too after seeing just
    	how far I could push one of them.  It's is extremely
    	effective when used ONLY when necessary.  Used few and far 
    	between, it reminds a child who is in charge, just what the 
    	limits are, and how far close to that you can go.  
    
    	I think a lot of times I would rather have been spanked than
    	had to talk to my Dad about misbehaving.  I think I'm almost
    	to the age where I can have a serious talk (about anything)
    	with him and not get upset.  He was always so stern that it 
    	made you shake in your shoes.
    
	Looking back on it, my parents did a great job.  I have a
    	lot of respect for them and only hope I can be half as good
    	at it as they are.
    
    					Eileen

      re..
>================================================================================
>Note 1174.20               Parent's role, child's role                  20 of 23
>IMTDEV::BERRY "Dwight Berry"
>
>Saying that it's better than getting burned is like saying it's better to be
>run over by a Honda Civic than an 18-wheeler, in my opinion.�
>
>I haven't the time of day for anyone that slaps their child.  Might be tempted
>to step in and slap the adult back though...�
>
      Striking a child is one of the most important trainings a parent can
      give, this allows a child to fit into society. Children should be struck
      in the heat of the moment (while the iron is hot). � hour later or once
      a week is for the benefit of the parent not the child. This is too late
      to be effective. A person goes through a number of changes (facial,body
      etc) before entering the violent stage. All too often in society we meet
      people who have not learnt to recognise these stages. The extremes vary
      from a) Excessive timidness, a victim. b) excessive boldness, a
      victimiser.
      Striking a child permits the learning� of human responses within a safe�
      environment. 
      Rgds,

      �   I would take my chances with a honda civic any day over an 18
      wheeler. We agree therefore that small amounts of violence is better
      than large amounts.
      �   Does this mean to say that you could actually be provoked to
      violence. It appears that some people have not learnt the meaning or the
      seriousness of violence. -- It is always good to hear how violent the
      advocate of non violence speak.
      �   pls note learning and safe, no harm should come to the child.

    .22
    
    Oh.  I somehow missed the 'hand' ....  Sorry to whoever it was.
    
    
    -1
    
    Violence should always be a last resort.  I'm not a peace-nick.  But
    we should talk to our children.  It works for me so far.
    

    I dunno, anymore as a parent I wonder just what is the right and wrong
    of it?  Spare the rod and spoil the child seems to actually be a true
    statement... the trick is in learning when to use the "rod" or flat of 
    the hand.  I tell my son not to do something.  I go to pains to explain 
    why he shouldn't.  Then he does it anyhow.  We have a discussion as to 
    why he did it anyhow.  I explain he shouldn't do it anymore.  He does
    it again.  and again, and again.
    
    I tell my son not to do something.  I explain why he shouldn't do it.
    He does it anyhow... I smack him on the rump (mind you, when I say 
    smack I mean I bring more physical abuse to bare when we are playing 
    with each other... a stiff flat handed smack on the fleshy part of his 
    rear end just hard enough to sting.) He stops doing it.  
    
    Am I a child abuser?  I don't think so, I've never left a mark or
    bruise on him.  I have scared the living bejebbers out of him a couple
    of times.  I don't swing first and question later.  I think it through.
    
    To be honest, I was raised the same way, and I don't feel I've been 
    'damaged" by it.  I'd be concerned if I had no self control over his
    occasional smack on the rump.  If I beat him or took a belt to him.  
    Something like that, I'd be horrified. If I ever left a hand print from
    the smack or a bruise mark or whatever... I'd be horrified.  
    
    What I think should be of greater concern to the parent is verbal
    abuse.  Spanking is NOT so horrid, it seems to have served the human
    race this long and granted we may not be the greatest species on earth,
    but physical punishment is typical behavior in many species... it's
    when it becomes sadistic and/or harmful that it is a problem.... yet
    the words... "Whats wrong with you?  You some kind of moron or
    something?"  uttered just once at the wrong time... that can cause more 
    damage to a child then a smack on his rump for misbehaving.  
    
    The fact is that there has to be a form of punishment when you raise a 
    child and for each and every method available as a choice, you will
    find a book or expert that will sing the death derge for it.  "Time
    Out" was a big thing a few years ago for punishment... if the child 
    misbehaved, you made him sit still in his chair for 5 minutes and take 
    a "time out".  Wonderful.... no physical abuse, a great way to punish 
    a child, only problem was... more then half the kids that were punished 
    this way developed a liking for the punishment (including my son) they 
    would participate in something they didn't want to do, do something
    "bad" and not have to do it anymore.... 
    
    So the wonderful "values" being taught my son were... "if you have to 
    do something you don't want to do, do something bad, then you don't
    have to do it anymore or can take a break from it!"  Wonderful set of 
    values he's learning there eh?  Let's apply them to our jobs now....
    If we have to work on a project we don't want to work on, screw it up,
    then we'll get to take a break for a while."  Right!  A break right out 
    the door and onward to a new position.
    
    So wht am I saying?  I'm saying that there are no right answers for how 
    to raise a child.  The parent has to make his/her own decisions on how
    to do it, put a bit of faith in themselves and stick to there
    decisions.  Consistency is more important then following the current 
    beliefs of how to do the job right.  For every acceptable from used on 
    a generation of children there has been a generation of adults with 
    problems stemming from thier childhood rearing... From the days of 
    sever punishments that resulted in literally getting wiped as a child
    for dong something wrong, to the "discussion" method that produced the 
    "ME generation" Dr. Spock is a crock and so are the rest of the
    experts.  They're filled with wonderful theories but don't know if they 
    work until the children raised using those theories are adults.  
    
    But to me, and from what I've observed with my own son and other
    children the major trick is consistence.  Plain and simple. If you 
    chose to use a set of rules for raising a child stick by them.  If you 
    tell your child "Don't do that or you'll go to your room" by God when
    s/he does it, send them to their room"  Not just that one time but each 
    time they do it.  I'd rather my son grew up knowing that "If I break
    this rule, this is the price of it"   Then having him grow up thinking
    "Hmmm if I break this rule again....wonder what he'll do this time?
    Will he spank me? Send me to my room? Lecture me? Hmmmmm?"
    
    All of this is of course my own personal beliefs based on what did and
    didn't work with me when I was growing up, things I've observed with
    other kids I've watched growing up and grown up with, and of course,
    my own opinion... you can take it for what it's worth.
    
    Skip

    re.26
    I like your opinion
    

    The parenting course I am taking says don't bother to explain anything
    to your kids because the dont understand whats driving them to do what
    they are doing and explanations are a waste of time and may in fact
    be determintial. The may cause the kid to increase the bahavior.

    So you're saying you should not explain to your kids that sticking their
    fingers in the light socket is going to hurt?  (Sorry I couldn't
    resist).  
    
    Actually .28 is just another example of what I said.  It wasn't that
    long ago when we were being told that rather then punishing the child,
    we should go into explainations of why they shouldn't do what they are 
    doing. ANOTHER widely accepted theory on child rearing shot to heck.
    
    
    Skip
    

        re: .29 (Skip)
    
           I don't have the time to get into this too much, but I
       want to make a comment...it is difficult, if not impossible,
       to generalize about raising children.  Everyone is an individual,
       everyone is unique.  What for some may be traumatic, others may
       find "acceptable" while yet others may find necessary for their
       own personal growth.  If one studies abuse cases (and virtually
       everyone has been "victimized" by some abuse or other...which
       is my point) they will observe all different kinds and to all 
       different levels.  Some people will have been traumatized simply
       by being looked at, while others will have been emotionally
       negatively impacted by being spoken to in certain ways.  There is
       NO WAY to know what will impact someone a certain way which will
       have severe emotional consequences.  For this reason, it is not
       appropriate to state that spanking a child is proper, when in fact
       for that particular child it may be quite traumatic.  
            Using fear tactics, gross intimidation, displaying violent
       anger (and I don't necessarily mean physically) can all be extremely
       stunting towards a child/person's development.  I have first hand
       awareness of the effects (life-long) of such behavior.  While not
       as clear or obvious as some physical abuses, the impact is pervasive
       and deep nontheless.  Add to this (non-physical "abuse") *any*
       physical punishment, and it could be extremely difficult to gauge
       the resulting history.  
            Physical punishment is likely the "last resort."  This means
       exactly that.  Words can and do have impact.  NEGATIVE words as well
       as POSITIVE words.  If humanity were even a fraction as enlightened
       in using positive motivation as we seem to be in using negativity,
       life would probably be magnitudes beyond our current wildest dreams.
            I suspect that people who resort to negative motivation, fear
       choices, intimidation, manipulation, physical punishment, etc., do
       so simply because they are unaware of alternatives, do so because
       often they are looking for expediency and do so often as a
       habituated reaction to their own upbringings...knee-jerk reactions
       never attenuated by serious thinking.
    
    Frederick
    

    Fred,
    
    Read my earlier reply... I think you'll find we agree on a lot.  I've 
    just said it a bit differently then you.  As I said before and in .29
    there are no correct theories.. no defined right ways... what works for 
    one won't for another.  I still beleive that verbal abuse is far more 
    damaging and rampant then physical abuse (it has GOT to be simply by 
    it's nature... It borders too much on the Freedom of Speech issues, 
    and other problems... how can you prove calling your child an idiot has 
    caused him sever mental damage not until the damage manifests can you,
    then you have to prove it was in fact that and not some other traumatic 
    experience that caused the behavior... Verbal Abuse is DANGEROUS but 
    physical abuse is easier to deal with, so it take precedence.)
    
    But the bottom line is (and it is my own personal opinion) that
    inconsistency causes trauma.... it isn't a trauma for a child to have 
    his fanny smacked for spitting on the floor.  It's traumatic to be 
    told not to do that or you'll not get dinner.  Then told if you do it 
    again, you wont get to (insert favorite past time here).  Then do it 
    and find your self smacked on the bottom.  Face it, if you ask me 
    uncertainty, variation, etc., cause trauma a lot more often then not.
    
    Skip

    re: .31 (Skip)
    
         Yes, Skip, true enough.  However, physical violence is often
    the result of learning that hitting is okay, no matter how simple 
    it was when done.  
         Let me give you what I'd call an embarrassing moment in my life.
    A couple of years ago, a female friend of mine said something that
    was meant cynically.  I took it as a joke, but wanted to *pretend*
    to be offended, if you can understand.  I did something that I have 
    never done before (why, I haven't been able to figure out, but as best
    as I have been able to remember, I have never done this to anyone
    before) and that was to slap her...understand, as best you can, that this
    slap of mine was extremely weak.  That is, I felt that I had barely
    touched her face.  Well, I had acted rather spontaneously, without
    really thinking it through, without even considering any of its 
    implications, etc.  In my mind, I was just playing when I did that.
    WELL, to make the story shorter, for her it was almost catastrophic.
    She has had TMJ problems (which I knew about but hadn't considered
    at that moment) and is the most delicate, hypochondriacal person I
    know...therefore, you can see the rest...she even considered suing me
    after this!  It was months and months before we were back on even
    terms again (I spent hours apologizing...)  
         Physical blows have lots of implications.  Physical blows don't
    necessarily have to physically cause pain to be interpreted in a
    variety of negative ways.  But physical blows are a violation of 
    the only thing we really own in physical space!  If we don't own our
    bodies, we don't own anything in physicality.  "Funny," too, is 
    that once that barrier has been breached, it's very easy to escalate
    it.  "Funnier," too, is how physical punishment is so often associated
    with "love."  ("Well, they only do that to you to show you that they
    love you.")  This association between physical punishment and love
    is a very, very tenuous, delicate and perhaps even erroneous coupling,
    AT BEST.  
         I don't know about you, Skip, but if someone wants to love me,
    I think I would prefer that they find some way of demonstrating it
    by means other than by "punching my lights out" or even whacking my
    butt with a yardstick or whatever.  Can't we, in all our creative
    enterprise, come up with better ways of showing love?  Also, how
    much creativity and individuality is taken away from people in forcing
    them to conform to not just society, but also to our own little and
    severely limited views of reality, by manipulating, coercing, 
    punishing, and otherwise forcing (euphemistically called "molding")
    others, especially small others (children) into subservience?
    Following the moribund norms are highly revered in our world...
    individuality and independence are severely castigated and forced
    into atrophism by our insistence upon it.  Some things may require
    training, but most often LOVE, in its purest expressions, are all
    the motivation(s) that are needed.  Please note I don't condone apathy,
    for apathy is the direct opposite of love. (Hate is *not* love's
    antithesis.)  But, again, most of us are exceptionally successful
    in understand hurt, pain, violence,...negativity of all kinds...while
    very, very, very few of us have even a shallow understanding of what
    love is or how to practice it.
    
    Frederick
    

    Fredrick,
    
    I think you're confusing Physical Violence with Physical Punishment...
    Two very different lines....
    
    Further you're taking a situation between two adults and trying to make 
    it work for a situation where a parent is dealing with a child....
    Again... two very different things.
    
    Finally you're trying to make ideals work for child rearing... which 
    is something the so called experts keep trying to do also and like I 
    said before... for each of their theories on the proper way to raise a 
    child... there is a generation of adults with hang ups and problems.
    
    Lastly, I DO agree that love is a major part of child rearing.... so
    long as the child is raised know it is loved and physical VIOLENCE is
    not used in place of physical punishment... I think the child will grow 
    up better then our generation has.  
    
    I was raised with spankings as punishment...
    I do not go to that degree with my son.  I smack him on the fanny...
    once, and while in control of myself or I don't smack him, but instead 
    send him to his room to "await punishment" (He's now old enough to 
    understand the whys and hows of this now).  
    
    One last thing... if you (regardless of the TMC) had ever slapped me 
    across the face, or I ever witnessed you slapping a woman across the
    face, playful or not, I'd be obliged to give you black eye.  I was 
    raised that to feel that a gentleman simply does not strick a person 
    across the face unless he is very very old and about to challange the 
    person to a duel.  Otherwise, it is not acceptable behavior and the
    person displaying it isn't much better then a four legged egg-sucking 
    dog.  (And where I come from they shoot egg sucking dogs). 
    And once I did it, you'd never slap me across the face again.  
    Don't be angry with me for saying this, I don't mean it to offend you
    or anyone else.  But, that is something you simply do NOT do where I 
    come from unless you intend to be beaten severaly for having done it.
    
    Skip

    re: 33 (Skip)
    
         Well, Skip, then we'll get into discussing the fine lines between
    physical punishment and physical abuse.  I used that example
    deliberately.  I used it because it *was* between adults, who
    supposedly know the difference between play/harm, good/bad,
    punishment/violence.  Apparently *I* didn't realize what the harm
    that I was doing was...even though I believe that's the only time in
    my life I slapped someone (that I can remember,) I was doing so
    playfully (in my mind.)  Clearly it wouldn't be interpreted as such
    by many people, you foremostly included.  And had you reacted towards
    my (intentional, though inappropriate) playfulness by giving me a
    black eye, my likely response to you could have escalated to even
    further violence.  
        Now then, if two adults can act this way, what sorts of impact does
    this have on a child?  Especially since the child knows that it is
    small and helpless and up against "gods"...what kinds of suppression
    or repression or resentments do you suppose get generated?  So, in 
    your mind it's only a pat on the butt...(in my mind, it was *only*
    a slight slap, with playful intentions, on the face)...but the child
    reacts with great fear, with great anger, with great intimidation...
    "but it was only a spank on the butt" says the parent.  Maybe *your*
    butt is "only"...my butt is rather special to me.
        Child psychology has been imperfect as has been the rest of 
    society.  I do not defend practices of the 1950's.  But resorting to
    primitive methods doesn't inspire me, either.  
        You can use spanks on the butt if you like, Skip, and justify it
    all you want to.  I will not be impressed with your sense of evolution
    with that, however.  If you want to inspire me, then describe to me
    how you find or have found ways to motivate children without having to
    resort to even the "little slap on the butt."
        Moreover, in dealing with children, where do you suppose it is that
    parents learn to do what they do?  And why is it that "grown-ups"
    treat each other as they do?  Where is *that* behavior picked up?
    Yes, adult to adult is different than adult to child which is different
    than child to child...but who has the greatest impact?
    
    
    Frederick
    
      

    Fred,
    
    You've brought up some wonderful "theoritical" opinions on child
    raising but the real bottom line is you preach a lot of nice things,
    but offer no examples on how to accomplish the goals of a parent using 
    them.  
    
    You see there's one thing I HAVE learned in the 6 years I've been a 
    father... that old cliche about "Until YOU have children, you'll never 
    know" is the absolute, onehundred percent, god honest truth.  I can 
    remember growing up and thinking more then once, "If I ever have
    children I will not do this... I will do this instead"  Well, I did 
    the insteads and some of them worked and I still do them, but some of 
    them didn't and left me with trying what the doctors suggested the so 
    called "experts" the same people responsible for the "Me" generation, 
    the "We" generation and the "Huh?" generation.  Then there are the 
    methods I siad I would never use... guess what, I used them, and they 
    worked.  Face it, there are NO right answers... you do what works best 
    just like I do.  And it seems to me that each generation makes it's 
    mistakes and has it's failors but it has it's successes as well.  
    
    You've repeated that love is all and it's a great concept but it won't 
    raise a kid who won't go and beat the first kid he sees playing with is 
    bike...
    
    Children are naturally a selfish and cruel lot... they are also open
    and honest in it.  It's up to us to raise them to fit into society and 
    maybe the methods aren't the greatest... but unless YOU have some 
    bonifide certifiable correct magic answer that solves all and does all,
    I'll stick with the ones that work for me now... thanks all the same,
    but your discussion just leaves me wondering if you have children or
    not and that's it.
    
    Skip

    re: .35 (Skip)
    
         My son is a successful 20-year old junior (in mechanical
    engineering.)  His mother and I divorced when he was 5.  I raised him
    alone for three years.  Ask him how "theoretical" I am.
         Now, then, Skip, next question...
    
    
    Frederick
    

    Fred,
    
    I'm not arguing with you... I see your point and understand what you're 
    saying but so far that's all you've done... SAY.  So?  SHOW man... 
    If you have a great method for raising a kid that is perfectly normal
    and socially well adjusted.  GIVE IT TO ME!  Otherwise, bog off, my 
    methods are working just fine and from all the folks invovled my son 
    is a well adjusted, self assured, normal 6 year old boy.  (And believe 
    me, I keep taps on teachers, doctors, and mother to make sure of what's 
    going on.)
    
    But as I said before, you're talking and making noise... but you havn't 
    given with any info other then "Peace and Love shall accomplish all"
    
    What do you do when you asked him at age 6 to pick up a mess and he 
    said "NO!" ??? How did you deal with it?
    
    What did you do when you fed him dinner and he refused to eat his
    broccoli for the 10th time?  (And according to my doctor the theory 
    about a child somehow knowing what there body needs and doesn't need
    for a well balanced diet is a crock... a child will eat what they like 
    so long as you give them the freedom to eat it in the quantities they 
    want to eat it in... letting the necessary vitamins etc. go, in other 
    words, it's up to us to insure they eat properly.)
    How did you get him to eat or at least taste it?
    
    What did you do the first time he reached out in anger grabbed a kid by 
    the hand and bite him?  (Convince me this is a learned behavior... go
    ahead try.)  
    
    There's a long list of things ALL kids do to some degree or other that 
    ALL parents deal with.  Everything from pot-training, to spitting at 
    people, to cursing, to taking the screws out of anything and everything 
    in the house (my own personal favorite past-time when I was 6).  These 
    "standard problems" are dealt with different from household to
    household.  Take pot training.... I work the "every hour or so, place
    them on the pot... if they go while there... praise them, shower them 
    with love.  When they wet, tell them they did wrong... not
    humiliatingly but more like "Ahhhh you wet your pants, too bad" then 
    place them on the pot.  It's kinda like trying to paper train a puppy.  
    My sister's method was to pat her baby on the rear and set her down on 
    the chair each time she wet her pants.... 
    
    Both methods worked for both children... both stopped wetting pants in
    about the same amount of time... Is my neice "ruined for life" because 
    she got patted on the butt?  Who knows?  She seems to make it to the
    bathroom okay and I havn't noticed any problems with her during the two 
    weeks I visted her last.  (She was 8 then).  
    
    I'm not saying that I'm an expert Fred... nor will I ever say you are.
    
    I'm saying that whatever methods you used worked for you... my methods 
    work for me... until someone shows me something that works better then
    the ones I use, I ain't buying anything they say.  That goes for you,
    my doctor, and all the wonderful child psychologist and psychiatrist
    here or anywhere else.  My own methods work, and from all the input I 
    am able to receive, are working quiet well.  
    
    Now I want to clear something else that seems to be getting blurred
    here... you keep mentioning spankings... 
    
    spankings refer to repeated blows on the rear intented to do harm or 
    cause pain.... 
    
    my "smack on the rear" is just that.. one (1) singular blow to the butt
    with about enough force to cause a candle flame to jiggle if it were 
    1" from the arc of swing.  It makes a rather dull and soft sound that 
    is something between a "slack" sound and a "fumph" sound that can be 
    heard if you don't have the television on in the apartment next door.
    It is not a repeated blow, and it's more a signal to Raymond that he's 
    doing something wrong then it is a physically forceful blow.  It's 
    not intended to hurt so much as to say... THIS IS WRONG...Now Pay
    attention while I set you straight kid.  
    
    Further, I still contend that verbal abuse... words.. comments like...
    
    "You aren't a moran, why can't you do this?" are far more damaging to 
    a child then the blow to the but I use.  I further beleive that the 
    verbal abuse is a lot further out of hand then the physical abuse is,
    (Haven't I said that before?) Mostly because of the nature of the two,
    It's easy to take a child to the hospital and show the bruises... not
    so easy to show the damage a handful of words properly applied at the 
    wrong moment can do.  Saying "Son I love you" is wonderful... but when 
    you say it after telling him what an idiot he is for not being able to 
    tie his shoe... doesn't carry much weight.  
    
    I worry more about what I say to my son.  I KNOW where I am with my 
    punishment system in the physical sense.  But when I say something to 
    him... will it make sense to him later in life?  Will it help him to 
    take a strong stance in his convictions?  Or, will it make him buckle 
    under when the day comes that he needs to be strong?  Will he look at 
    his boss and say something like "Gee boss, that's a neet idea, but I 
    can't handle it... give it to someone else... you see, I was raised 
    a moran....at least that's what my father always told me"
    
    You say your son is 20 years old... that's about the same age I was
    when I first started to test everything my father taught and said to
    me,  along about the age of 29 I decided he wasn't the worlds greatest
    father, and had made some mistakes along the way.  (29 is the age I was
    when my son was born) Until then, my father could look at anyone and
    say...
    
    "My son is 29 years old, served proudly in the military and works for
    the 2nd largest Computer Company in the world, got excellent grades in 
    school and is a loving wonderful son."
    
    That is a true statement but it don't mean a thang.  You see, my father 
    made a lot of mistakes raising me, mistakes that I go to great lengths 
    to avoid with my son, which makes me worry about over compensation,
    which makes me worry about under compensation, which makes me worry
    about individual factors (not all tricks work with all kids regardless
    who they are).  
    
    AS for your practice and practice and practice... isn't that basically
    all ANY of us in that catagory of "parent" ever do?  
    
    The bottom line is that in answering the base note,
    
    I feel that the physical abuse issue is blown to large in comparison
    to the verbal abuse issue when raising a child.....
    
    And that all the experts with all the wonderful theories are a crock
    until such time as they talk with adults who were raised using those 
    theories.
    
    That individual children have individual circumstances that require
    individual handling with individual methods, which makes all the
    general child raising theories even more difficult to implement.
    
    And that no one has the right answer yet.  Nor will they for a very
    very very long time to come... If for no other reason then the fact
    that we are talking about human beings with all the failings, and all 
    the achievments that go along with being that particular species.....
    
    Skip

    re: .37 (SKip)
    
         Okay.
    
         A couple of points, then I want to leave this...first off, since
    we both agree that people (including children) are individuals, then
    I guess we'll both agree that there is latitude and breadth in using
    variations of child-rearing (within certain broad ranges.)  Therefore,
    for me to tell you what I did back 15 years ago is not only irrelevant
    but it is probably also not how I see the world today.  I have 
    grown and changed...I no longer see things or do things as I did then.
    Further, I felt better equipped in one sense at the time due to my
    having a bachelor's degree in psychology.  However, since I have 
    gone beyond psychology (and I'll leave that as it stands) I no longer
    adhere to the efforts I made 15 years ago to implement the psychology
    I knew.  
         Clearly we all make mistakes.  But we don't need to feel shamed
    for our mistakes.  I feel certain remorse for certain things I did,
    and I am currently working towards releasing the shame I have had and
    also in forgiving myself for the past mistakes-or-whatever that I
    have made.  That is *MY* ongoing process.  
         A whack on the butt is probably not going to have a severe 
    impact.  But that same whack 20 times per day, day-in-and-out probably
    *WILL* have an impact.  Yes, we can learn from "negative
    reinforcement," but I believe that we can stretch far beyond by using
    positive reinforcement.  Think about it...you use the whack on the butt
    because of its expediency...and you "know that it will work."  Do you
    have or take time to look for some alternative that doesn't rely on
    physical force?  THIS is what I'm referring to.  THIS is precisely the
    sort of thing that this whole nation (and other nations) do.  They
    go to the same old "I know this will work" routines with resultant
    wars, battles and unhappinesses, tragedies and deaths.  Expediency.
    And no real effort to find other avenues.  And, no, eventually it
    doesn't work very well.  
        Skip, understand that I'm not criticizing your actions.  Frankly,
    it sounds as though you are making the best decisions you know with
    a great deal of thought and feeling behind them.  Just understand that
    there are certain resigned attitudes that can stagnate and produce
    negative results...and that these may be enhanced by frequently 
    reassessing them.  That is, don't just say "this will work," but also
    say "yes, that has worked, but maybe something else will work better."
    And don't quit looking.  Life is about systems...finding newer and
    lighter systems.  All systems work...but all have limitations.  The
    world we live in, with all its ugliness, is based on systems that have
    only worked to this point.  In order to find greater freedom, we need
    to constantly reassess, question and renew efforts to break systems in
    favor of better ones.  A whack on the butt may not be much...and maybe
    it isn't...but complacently accepting it may not be much, either.
         One more tangential thing...all educators, etc., are not
    infallible.  I'm not sure what your hostility towards them is about,
    but to generalize them and lump them all into the same category is
    not only unfair but false.  Most are probably well-intentioned.  Many
    are very, very good at what they do.  All are human and also make 
    mistakes.  But to dismiss them all in a broad sweep of the arm is
    a bit risky, I think.  There is lots and lots of valuable advice and
    information out there.  Certainly at least as good as HUMAN_RELATIONS.
    I hope you consider backing down from that platform a bit.
    
    
    Frederick
    

    Fred,
    
    After going over your reply and then re-reading mine I have come on a
    bit (okay A LOT) strong against the so called "experts"  I didn't mean 
    to sound that way so much as trying to point out that a person
    shouldn't accept some theory for child rearing simply because the
    person expressing it is considered an expert in that field...  His 
    theories are just that... and he wants a chance to prove them which
    means he has to use them and find out what the results are.  I hold no 
    malice for him or his attempts to do that, so long as I don't make the
    mistake of saying "Well, I'll keep using his method because according
    to his theory its going to work."  
    
    The problem in what you suggest, is in learning when to change your 
    approach to raising a child and when not too.  There are a lot of
    problems that are going to arise from the generation of children who 
    were raised by this group of adults, if they continually change methods 
    everytime someone says "My Theory works like this..."  
    
    There is a certain amount of expermentation involved in raising a
    child, (as you've said, and any parent will attest to.)  And a parent
    has to play with a three way scale when raising a child... that is,
    they, {The Parent} has to keep aware of changes in theory of child
    rearing... then play the "This worked for my Grandparents, parents, me"
    balanced against "This works for my friend, cousin, a teacher or other 
    outsider of the family, including spouse"  "This works in theory and 
    sounds like something I need to change in my approach"  
    
    Between the three you have to strike a balance, simply because if you
    don't then the poor child you're raising isn't going to know how you
    will react to a given situation from one week to the next.  And THAT by 
    it's very nature is going to cause a lot of damage.  Ah well, I think 
    we've beaten this dead horse enough... I see your point, and I think 
    you grasp mine.... and basically it all goes to show just how much 
    uncertainity there STILL is in raising a child and any parent is bound 
    to be scared to death by it if they stop and think about it long enough
    (I know I am whenever I start dwelling on the subject too long).  
    
    Oh, and one other things, I have no doubt whatever that when my son is 
    grown and on his own, I'm going to be looking back at the methods used
    and tried and having just as many regrets about things as you have.  
    (I've already had a couple minor ones in the way I phrased a sentence 
    or jumped to a bad conclusion)  I won't pretend I'm unashamed, or proud
    I just learned to accept that it's going to happen, it has and it
    will...  that's how life works.  I'm  the type that firmly believes
    thought that so long as I learned from it, then I can forgive myself 
    for the error.  If I didin't learn anything from it, then I can't until 
    such time as I do.  
    
    The thing is that historically, aside from the "smack" nearly 97% of
    the various child raising theories have failed to some degree or
    extent.  Several of them come to mind and most recently the "Explain 
    don't punish" theory comes to mind (I also read that explaining the
    reason for everything to a child can cause a lot of problems later in 
    life).  I decided tht I would not "experiment" on my son with any new 
    theories that came up on how to raise a child.  I would research the 
    older ones and see if I could learn what of them worked (very VERY 
    little).  But, aside from that, I would have to go with the things that 
    did and didn't work for me, as well as those things that whn presented 
    to me properly make me feel somewhere on a gut level that they have
    merit and just might work, (again very VERY little).  
    
    Finally, of all the medical sciences today, the mind is the weakest one 
    we know anything about... It took a lot of years and knowledge to reach 
    the point where we understood enough about physiology to attempt the
    first organ transplant, and a lot of years from that day to the point 
    where we can work with inorganic materials in place of natural organs.
    The mind and the sciences of it, are still one of the least explored 
    areas.... and child rearing is only a very small portion of it.  
    
    When my son is on his own the questions will be irrelevant but I'll ask 
    him where my mistakes were.  I'll ask him to forgive me the errors, and 
    I'll move on from there.  If he has a sense of self worth, a drive to 
    be the best at whatever he decides to do, and he has a caring and
    loving attitude toward others, with the ability to recognize when he is 
    being taken advantage of.  If he shows thoughtfulness toward any
    decisions concerning himself and (when/if the time comes) his
    familey, and he shows that he has some degree of acceptable
    intelligence and skill that will allow him to work at a trade or
    profession which he will be happy in...
    
    Then I'll feel I did right by him, mistakes or no.  
    
    Skip  

    I'm glad you care enough to discipline.  Skip, you sound
    like a great dad, I'm sure you and your son will be just fine.
                                
    Consistency probably is one of the most important issues in discipline
    and takes energy and caring enough to follow through.

    Somewhere in the comments made an idea got stuck in my mind... As
    sometimes happens, the idea took root and floated around, along with it 
    is the fact that my son returns to his mother on the 21st of this month
    and I will not be able to see him again until Christmas Vacation....
    At which point I will get to discover all the new changes from now
    until then, just as I discoverd the changed between my taking custody
    of him in June and when I saw him last in Nov of the preceeding year.
    
    Well then, for your pleasures and to show you where I actually am 
    coming from....
    
        
    Somewhere in the Hugmelots
    Between the Kissesdaddy
    Near the long lost ticklemees 
    between the pickmeups
    
    Or maybe in the Swingme
    by the forgotten Peekaboo
    When we fought of the Koodiebugs
    With the magic of your BOO!
    
    Sometime along the Longwalkhome
    And the Igotbigstepstoo
    And the Takemefishingdaddy
    and the Girlsareickypoo
    
    I guess I don't know when it was 
    I forgot to take your hand
    I wish I could remember 
    That's when you became a man
    
    Was it a bit of magic 
    a spell wove over me?
    When could you have grown enough
    for me to let you be?
    
    Somewhere there by the Helpyoudaddy
    And the Imadeitmyself
    You grew to fast to follow son
    Now I'm Allbymyself.
    
                     Dedicated to the Rainman (Raymond) 
                       who had that effect on me.
                       
    			Skip
    

    The title of the previous piece is 
    
    "The Rainman (Raymond)"