Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    I am repling as someone that is a single mom with 2 children, 7
    and 9.  While I was dating, the best thing a friend could do for
    me was to simply be there.  I did not appreciate advice or
    condemnation, nor did I ask for any.  There were times, I'm sure
    when my kids appeared to be absolute monsters, but it would not
    help for anyone to point that out to me.
    
    You can either just accept it or not be part of it.  That's the
    way I wanted it from my friends and relatives.  It took time for
    me to organize my family and the discipline but it was with quiet
    support
    from friends and relatives and my own reliance that it came through
    and still is.   
    
    That's about all I can say.  I just hope you don't make it a contest
    between his children and you.  
    

    I must admit I'm the same way, although my Ex has physical custody, I
    do get to spend long periods of time with my son.  My Father is always 
    trying to talk me into taking things to court to change this or that in 
    the agreement.  It's caused more than one fight between him and I.  I 
    don't need, didn't need, anyone telling me where things were bad in the 
    agreement and where they were good.  I already knew and what I didn't
    know I learned quickly.  All I needed from friends was a little moral 
    support when it got bad for me.  If you're relationship is close enough 
    to him that you feel you can bring it up, suggest family counseling for 
    them.  But I wouldn't even try that if he doesn't seem the type to
    accept small suggestions.  
    
    As for the situation itself.  It sounds like a lot of pent up rage and 
    frustration is building up in him and his boys both.  If they don't
    find some way to release it soon, all heck could break out and leave
    them with a lot of hurt feelings about each other.  They need to learn
    that they in the situation they are in, and that it isn't their fault,
    but that it is better for the parents this way.  A few really good 
    sessions with a family counselor will do them a LOT of good in
    realizing accepting and being able to adjust to the situation.
    
    Hope this helps.
    
    Skip

    	
    	Re .0-
    
    >My boyfriend told me initially
    >that he wasn't sure that he would be able to have a relationship
    >with anyone due to the severe degree of his children's behavior.
    
    	Sounded like he was being honest and perhaps looking for some 
    re-assurance from you.
    
    >I felt like I had all I could take.  
    
    	Can you really handle any more, or is this just what you felt
    at the moment? If you cant handle this, maybe it's best to get out
    of the relationship now?
    
    >I think they need to seek therapy, as they don't behave as a family
    unit.  
    
    	They aren't a family unit. That was effectively dis-membered.
    Until that dis-membering is resolved, this behavior will probably
    continue.
    
    >He does all the chores himself, and if you ask either one of them to 
    >help they look at you like you have 3 heads.
    
    	Children at this age can be expected to cooperate. However,
    you dont know if this expectation has ever been communicated to
    them. Maybe "dad's" doing all the chores out of a sense of guilt
    over the familys' breakup.
    
    >The bottom line is that he was left with these two children, and due
    >to the circumstances around the way it all happend he is bitter toward
    >his ex-wife and all the boys want is for them to get back together.
    
    	I'd expect that the two boys are also "bitter toward" their parents'
    breakup. Their behavior is simply an "acting out" of their unresolved
    feelings about mom and dad's parting. The "bickering, fighting,
    screaming at each other" is _anger_ acting out, showing (what my
    guess would be) that they're pretty darn pissed off at dad, mom and the 
    whole friggin' ordeal!
    
    	Aside from the advice already given, you might try to find a way
    to "be there" in an emotionally supportive context for the two boys
    also. Instead of standing there for 20 minutes with a blank or appalled
    look on your face (in response to their appalling behavior) respond
    to them in some way that conveys to them "I hear your feeling" and "I 
    care enough to let you know that your behavior is unacceptable to me".
    A 5 month involvement with their father is appropriate for showing
    them this level of caring - provided you plan to stick around.
    
    	Best of luck with this!
    
    	Joe 

    Just a quick response to Joe's commment about a 5 month envolvment with 
    "Dad" being long enough to show/react to the boys.  That's assuming
    you've had as much envolvment with them as with the father.  If you've 
    stayed an "outsider" not commented or tried to interreact with them,
    then it's time to do so... but take it EASY... don't try to force
    yourself on them.  If Dad is like I am, I've always taken time before 
    introducing a girlfriend to my son.  I didn't want him to form any kind 
    of attachments to someone who was only going to be around for a few
    months then disappear after she and I broke up.  It could be
    emotionally devistating for him and at his age (6) it's hard to explain
    that the reason someone he's developed feelings for is not coming
    around to see him anymore is because she doesn't care for dad anymore.  
    
    Granted, these boys are older and should be able to understand things a
    bit easier, but, understanding and emotionally feeling something are
    two different levels with varied results.  
    
    The best advice I can suggest is trying to be a friend to the boys. 
    (Which is the same thing Joe has suggested in the previous reply).  
    Don't try to force anything, give them time to know you and come to 
    terms with you on there own level.  It's a tricky business.  I went 
    through it once with a girl who was divorced and had a son.  I had to 
    explain to him after her and I broke up tht I wouldn't be able to see 
    him anymore either.  Not by choice (I liked the boy) but because his 
    mother and I couldn't get along effectivly in the relationship anymore.
    
    Skip

    
    Just wanted to add something I learned when I started dating
    after divorce ... my son had always been well-behaved, but the 
    minute I started dating, he started behaving like a toad ... like
    on a Sunday afternoon when my date and I wer watching football and
    he walks in the den and says, "Mom, are you *ever* gonna cook again??
    ?????  We haven't had a home cooked meal around here in two months!"
    ... etc., etc., etc. ... anything to embarrass me, or try to cause
    a scene.  I couldn't understand it for the longest, then after a
    long talk I learned that he wanted mom and dad to reconcile, and
    really *thought* the possibility would be there if he could scare
    off all mom's dates.  It's tough for kids to see their parent with
    another partner, no matter how nice the new partner may be ... so I 
    think it takes a *lot* of patience on the part of the new partner, 
    and a willingness to take it slow in developing a relationship
    with the kids.  
    
    Too, Dad may be having some real guilt feelings about how the
    divorce is affecting his kids, and may be more lenient with them
    than he was before the divorce.  I do think, though, that his
    comment about it indicates he can't handle the kids and the
    relationship *together* at this point, and maybe he needs some
    time to get the relationship with his kids under control before
    he brings you back into the picture.  
    
    FWIW,
    
    Ronda
    

    I can't really help you with this problem.  I just became seriously
    involved with a man with 2 boys (ages 9 and 11 coincidently).  This
    is the first time I've dated a man with kids and they're great.  So
    far the biggest problem is that they're so friendly and I'm basically
    anti-social!  ;^)  Rough life, I know.
    
    I really hope things settle down for you...all the best.
    
    Just as an aside...you might try treating the boys as adults.
    When they throw a tantrum look at them as if *they* had 3 heads.
    Sometimes this snaps my own son out of bouts of temper.
    
    
    
                                       L.J.