Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    This is YOUR wedding--your party--and you should invite whom you
    please.  Remember Ann Landers' (or is it Dear Abby's?) old chestnut:
    you can't be manipulated unless you ALLOW it.  Your Mom is entitled to
    her feelings about her former husband, but IMO she is not entitled to
    dictate your guest list.  If someone not to her liking is invited and
    attends *any* social function, it's up to *her* to deal with that (avoid
    the person, make polite conversation, whatever).  You'd drive yourself
    and everyone else crazy if you got into the Mrs.-Jones-can't-abide-Miss
    -Smith-so-who-do-we-invite game.
    
    Leslie

    
    My opinion....your Mom has been there for you ever since your Dad chose
    not to be. That's old stuff...but not to your Mom. I'm sure that she
    has been looking forward to seeing you get married for a long time...
    looking forward to doing all the Mom things. I think that she deserves
    this day as much as you do...the "mother of the bride" and all that
    pomp.
    I'm sure that your Dad knows how much he hurt her. I don't think that
    you would lose any ground with him if you explained that your Mother is
    still very hurt by what he did to her. Invite him to spend a few days
    with you and your new husband AFTER the wedding. 
    
    I really think that your Mom deserves special consideration in this.
    It's NOT just a case of "I don't like someone so I'd rather they
    weren't there". This is much deeper than that. Possibly more than you
    can even comprehend at this time of your life when love is only GOOD.
    
    I don't think it's a case of letting anyone manipulate you. I think
    that your Mom is still very very hurt. I think she deserves to not have
    to face this man who humiliated her and hurt her so badly on a day that
    is supposed to be one of the happiest days of HER life (yours too!!--I
    think YOU might get too caught up in the unhappiness in the air)
    
    FWIW...
    
    

    I don't agree at all with .2.  I think if you want your father there,
    then you should explain to both of your parents that this is your
    wedding, and you would appreciate it if they would both put their
    differences aside and contribute to making it a happy day for you.
    
    When my husband and I got married, we had a similar situation in that
    his folks still hated each other after being divorced for more than 20
    years, and couldn't even be in the same room without making a big
    scene.  It was very important to my husband that both his parents be
    there (which was a big deal since he was the one that neither of them
    wanted, so he was raised in a bunch of different foster homes), but I
    didn't want our special day to be a shambles.  My mother explained to
    both of them that we expected them to behave, and that no outrageous
    behaviour would be tolerated, and everything went quite smoothly.  They
    even danced together!  Considering that's the only event we've ever
    been to that both have attended that hasn't turned into a shambles, I
    think setting the expectations at the outset helped.
    
    I don't agree with .2 that your wedding day is your Mom's day.  It
    belongs to you and your new husband, and your mom will be enjoying your
    happiness.  And if that happiness includes having your father there,
    she needs to understand that.  

                         -< it's YOUR day, not Mom's >-

	Well, it seems to me - YOU should do what you want.  I agee with .1 and
.3 it is *your* day.  I am a mother and I am divorced from my children's father.
I also do not think too highly of him, but under NO circumstances would I feel
right in telling any one of my children he could not be at their weddings...
The way I look at it .. my relationship between my ex and myself is our business
not the children.

	sheesh

    
    Their right, it's your day, along with your soon-to-be husband, who
    should also be enjoying the day.
    
    Put the invitation to both your parents, and be honest about how each
    feels about the other attending. I didn't see anything about how your
    father feels about attending of if he was going to. But also be honest
    about the fact that this is YOUR day and you want both of them to be
    there, but if they cannot act maturely for a few hours, then they
    should reconsider coming.
    
    You are doing your best to patch up a relationship you missed, or at
    least trying to make it stable, I would think the two of them would be
    considerate enough to behave themselves seeing this is so important to
    you.
    
    Don't be manipulated by either of them, do in your heart what you feel
    is right, they will either have to accept it or not come and then they
    will have to live with that.
    
    Mary
    

>  Am I wrong?  

To my lights, you're right. It is your wedding, your life, and 
your dad.  

One of the guides I keep hearing for being a divorced parent 
holds that, no matter how angry you are at your ex, don't drag the 
kids into the battle, emotionally or any other way. The converse of
this, for the kids, holds that the kids ignore the parents anger.
(Easy for me to say!)

>I believe that my mom still loves my dad and it will just hurt 
>her to see him with somebody other than her.  

She probably has a lot of feelings about him, but I'd bet love is not
among them.  

It might not be out of place, however, for you to ask your dad to
come by himself, without a guest. Be honest ... tell him the request
has nothing to do with his friend, but just with the fact your mom
is less than pleased with his presence, and his coming by himself
by help limit her negative feelings.

Good luck!  Meigs

    You should do what you think is best, but I gree with .2, your mother
    suffered a great humillation at your father's hands, she was there ALL
    THE TIME while your father denied you, and just out of respect for my
    mother, I would never subject her to further stress... of course that
    is my opinion, that is what I would, I would invite him to YOUR house
    after you married, but leave your mother out or it, you want to bring
    him to your live... do so, by all means, but you also should spare pain
    to you mother, she deserves that much. By reading your entry, seems
    that you father did not behave much like a father to either your sister
    or you... who knows? he can again, repeat what he did with the current
    # 3, I hope he doesn't, but are you ready for that possibility?
    
    A wedding belongs to you and your groom, you have the final word, your
    mother will have to conform with your decision, but she deserves HER
    place in your life too! she is way above your father in getting the
    recognition and respect that is due.
    Best luck.  Ana
    

    .2 & .7 - She's not seating them together, for goodness' sake!  She
    didn't say anything about asking her father to give her away, either (I
    know that's a sore point in families of divorce).
    
    I think it *is* possible to show respect for each parent without being
    required to keep them physically separated from each other.
    
    Let this wedding mark the beginning of a better relationship between
    the basenoter and her dad, and the end of any "emotional caretaking" of
    her mother.  Nowhere is it written that the mother has to get within 20
    feet of her former husband!  Come on!
    
    Of course if I were the bride I would not "carry on" with my dad in
    close proximity to my mom (that would be "rubbing her face in it", I
    think) or otherwise lead my mom to believe that his presence was
    somehow a personal attack on her.  I would extend the invitation to
    each parent and, if grilled, explain that I was hoping equally for
    their presence, and that if one or the other or both declined, I would 
    understand (but would NOT change the guest list).
    
    Oh, and each of their invitations WOULD say "and guest."
    
    Leslie 

    
    
    I think that you should invite both of them.  It is your wedding not
    theirs.
    
    
    For the folks who think the mom's feeling should come first, do you
    think she owes it to her mother out of some sense of duty?  What is
    the reasoning behind this?
    
    
    I was raised primarily by my mom, but in no way do I feel a sense of
    obligation to her.  Yes she was the one who was there for me all the
    time.  The only thing I feel I owe her is my happiness  nothing more
    nothing less.
    
    

    This is a tough situation no matter how you look at it.... I feel
    for both you and your mom, and believe it or not, your dad!  Its
    too bad some folks learn what's really important so late in life!
    He deserves a chance; you also deserve to have a good relationship
    with him, and your mom needs to resolve those ill feelings.  The
    best approach is to have them meet at least once prior to the wedding
    and go from there... It's THEIR responsibility to behave appropriately
    for your special day; which by the way, will more then likely bring
    many more gatherings of this type (i.e. christenings, birthdays for
    grand children, etc).  They need to do this, too bad they can't
    do it without being told.  It's still the children that suffer!
    
    Been there......

> It's still the children that suffer!

Whenever I see stories like this, I sometimes wonder who the REAL
children are?  The offspring who have to walk on eggshells, or the
damned parents who can't bring themselves to behave?

["Oooo... he's looking at me!!!  Make him stop looking at meeee!!!!!!!!!!"
 "Sorry, Mom, I can't do that..."]

   As long as your mother can enroll someone (it happens to be you in this
   case, but it might just as well be someone else) into her vision of the
   world, then she will see no other options.  Her vision of the world is
   that your father does not exist.  For whatever reason, he did not exist
   in your life while you were growing up, and according to her vision of
   the world, he should not begin to exist now.  There are many options here
   as noted by others.  For example, they could be seated at separate
   tables,  They could tacitly agree not to even notice each other.  There
   are many more.  With her current stance, she can only see two.

   There is the reality and there is the way she would like it to be.

   What would happen (what would she do, what might she have to do) if you
   just decided to invite both of them and just let the chips fall where
   they may?


   							Terza

    
    I had a very similar situation with my wedding.  My father left my
    mother for another woman after 20 years of marriage.  In the years
    between the divorce and my wedding (about 8 years) mom's bitterness
    and hurt never went away.  She was always there for my sister and I
    and Dad made it a point to stay at arms length, or further.  I was
    20 when the divorce happened so he was around for my childhood and
    all those milestones.  Anyway, when the wedding was bing planned, I
    had all sorts of heartburn over what to do with my parents.  Like the
    basenoter, my father and I had started to try to resume some sort of
    relationship prior to the wedding, and Mom and I had always been close.
    I knew mom was going to be very uncomfortable around Dad and his 
    girlfriend.  Mom never dated anyone after getting divorced and she
    couldn't stand to see Dad with anyone else.  Big problem.  I didn't
    want Mom to be uncomfortable during the day, after all she's mother
    of the bride!  The three of us talked several times and they finally
    agreed to be cordial to each other that day and take each other's
    feelings into consideration.  I put Dad's side of the family on one
    side of the reception hall, Mom's on the other side.  I was so nervous
    about how my parents would react on that day, with all the little
    pressures that wedding days bring.  They both agreed to walk me down
    the aisle, they sat near each other in church, they both assumed the
    full "parents of the bride" roles.  They walked into the reception
    together, sat next to each other at dinner, then they went their
    separate ways.  I had checked with each of them when making seating
    arrangement plans to make sure they were ok with the arrangements,
    which they were.  I didn't make a move regarding them without checking
    it out with them first.  It gave me a whole new sense of respect for
    both people to see how they could put their personal feelings aside
    for part of a day for their daughter's wedding.  
    
    My advice to the basenoter is to invite both parents.  Be up front with
    both from the start.  Tell your dad that your mom will probably be
    uncomfortable around him and his girlfriend so maybe they can take her
    feelings into consideration (i.e. take girlfriend to the other side of
    the dancefloor so they aren't right in front of mom, stuff like that). 
    Tell your mom that your dad and his friend are invited and that you 
    are so happy that your relationship w/dad is heading in the right
    direction, and that hope that she will still be able to enjoy the day.
    Make sure mom has a support system at the wedding.  My two aunts and
    their families (mom's sisters) kept my mother busy chatting and dancing
    during the day.
    
    If you want to chat offline, feel free to send me vaxmail anytime.
    
    Good luck!
    Cherie  

    Let me give you the perspective of a mother who has raised her child on 
    her own .......
    
    I divorced my daughter's father when she was 3.  He has only been
    marginally in her life -- financially and in every other way -- since 
    then.  He's always been a part of her life when he is depressed,
    feeling sorry for himself or there is an occasion where he can play
    the proud, doting father.  One of those occasions is coming up.  Stacy
    graduates  from college next month.  Her father will be there. (Largely
    because Stacy felt it would be awkward for her grandparents if she
    invited them and not her father.)  Because I have no feelings for the
    man, this is not a big emotional thing for me. (Caveat - It does make
    me angry that he will strut in and try to share the limelight when he
    has never shared any of the resposnibilites etc.)  However, even if I
    hated his guts, I would never tell my daughter that he could not be at
    a milestone such as her graduation or wedding.  And, I will do whatever
    is necessary to make the day as perfect as possible for her.
    
    I hope that the basenoter's mother can come to see that her daughter's
    wedding is not the time to play out her hurt and anger.
    
    Polly 

    I think the compromise here is to invite your Dad without his
    girlfriend.  Would that be a big issue?
    
    
    Xtine

    
    I guess I don't see it as the Mom being 'childish or selfish' here. 
    
    I would imagine that even the basenoter can't fully understand the
    pain that her mother has been through. It is not childish for her to
    feel a little 'slapped in the face' to have 'HIM' be there to share
    in something that he THREW AWAY some years ago.  
    
    Some hurts take a LONG time to heal. 
    I would guess that Mom is feeling a little 'back seated' here...
    "AFTER WHAT HE PUT ME THROUGH AND HOW HE TREATED YOU AND HOW I WAS
    THERE FOR YOU, NOW YOU DO THIS TO ME"....
    I think it's human nature. Telling Mom to grow up is unfair.
    I think it would be more appropriate to let Dad know that you don't
    want to hurt your Mom, so you'll plan a special get together for him
    later. 
    
    Just my opinion....
    
    

Change the scenario around...

Suppose it were you and your brother/sister who were estranged...
But your mother loved you both anyways....and she asked that your
brother/sister be invited...

    re .16,
    
    I agree with that.  While the wedding is the bride's day, I can also 
    see the point from the mom's side.  While the wedding is the bride's day, 
    it is also a day for the mom in a way.  I congratulate .15 for her 
    sacrifice, altruism and courage, but it is still the fact that she resents 
    the father sharing the lime light which he does not deserve.  True the
    wedding is the bride's day, and you can make the mom fully understand
    that rationally, but she can no more change her resentment as you can. 
    When in the realm of emotion, one cannot simply wish something away
    definitely not by reasoning.  Still, the wedding is the bride's day, 
    and rational adults such as mom and dad can be convinced that they 
    should get along just for one day, but it still does not change the fact 
    that your mom is gonna have a miserable day.
    
    At this point, I no longer know what I am talking about, so I am gonna
    shut up.
    
    Eugene        

    I do feel somewhat unfair for the mother.
    
    Raising kids, as happy as it can be, is also a lot of effort. 20 some
    years of hard work being put on her shoulder alone, while the
    father just ignored, or did not want to involve at all.
    
    and after kids grow up, taking their own responsibilities, the father
    shows up again. I don't mean that the father intentionally showed
    up, or want to resume the relationship at this time, but the timing
    sure present a easy way, there is no responsibilities anymore, you
    can be as good friends as you want to be. Not living together, they
    don't have to "suffer (compromise)" with each other, and try to
    live under a roof together.

    A father that leaves his wife and children being, abandons them, denies
    his own children to adopt 2 kids from another woman does not deserve the
    HONOR of being treated as the parent who brought the kids up, stood by
    them... and now wants to be treated equally? to be treated like a
    devoted father???
    
    Whow... of course, he is a father, BUT DID NOT BEHAVE LIKE ONE, and
    thus, does not deserve be treated as such... we're forgeting that he
    distroyed his family to create another one that was also "disolved"...
    and is in the process of going through his 3rd try... and all that has
    to be brought to his daughter wedding... It is perfectly normal that he
    attends, as a guest, but alone... then it would not be an humillation
    to the mother of the bride, (think of all family together and all
    friends).  They started together and they should behave the same for
    the duration of the ceremony for the sake of all concerned, then, or
    later, it is up to the bride to patch things up with the father, away
    from family and friends... I believe that is the only way to patch
    things up, in private and with lots of understanding, patience and open
    communication. 
                 

    The basenoter specifically said she wanted to invite her father *as a
    guest*, not in the role of "father of the bride."  It doesn't seem to
    me that she wants this wedding to be the forum in which the entire
    extended family hashes out the old, old, old divorce news.
    
    Why should the mother of the bride feel humiliated?  If anyone, the
    father might feel uncomfortable (having been the party who *left* the
    marriage).
    
    Why shouldn't the father bring a guest?  Are you suggesting implicit
    punishment (by issuing a "valid for the bearer only" single invitation)
    for the father?  Life goes on; whether the mother likes it or not, her
    former husband has a different partner now.  I think it only polite to
    issue an invitation for the father and guest; he can determine whether
    he wants to/feels he should attend alone or accompanied.
    
    Leslie

    re .20,
    
    As other people have pointed out, the point is the daughter wants the
    father to be there, and it is the daughter's wedding.
    
    re .21,
    
    Why should the mother of the bride feel humiliated?
    
    The "why" isn't important.  It just IS.  
      
    Eugene

    From a different perspective.
    
    I'm divorced.  My Echs and I DON'T get along can't stand each other 
    (although for a while we were friends, things have changed... such 
    is the workings of life sometimes). When my son gets married I would 
    feel very hurt if I weren't invited to the wedding.  Even though he 
    lives in California and I in New Hampshire and may not be able to see
    him as much as I would like.  
    
    When that day comes (if?) I would be willing to sit on one side of 
    the chapel and let her take the other... I would be willing to forgo
    our differences for a couple of hours even.  But I would not like to 
    be told "Sorry old man... but mom counts and you don't, take a hike".
    
    People DO change, and if you and he are starting to establish a
    relationship now, telling him he can't come because of his former 
    wife's attitude is not going to help him accept you.  He is probably 
    feeling enough guilt now as it is.. why throw more at him?  
    
    Talk to your mother recommend that she sit on one side of the seats 
    away from him and not talk to him.  Advise him to do the same and 
    Then leave it to them to be mature enough to set aside the problems.
    
    Skip
    

    
    Let's look at it on the other angle now. I see people saying
    "he doesn't deserve it". Well, as someone pointed out, people DO
    change. And many people are influenced by the person they are with.
    And you can't come down on the father because all the facts are not
    here, maybe there is a reason why he left and maybe there is a good
    reason why he stayed at arm's length, maybe the mother's attitude about
    being left had something to do with it, we don't know.
    
    But don't tell someone who is trying to repair a relationship with a
    parent that he shouldn't go, or to put restrictions on him or the
    mother for that matter. I would think BOTH would be happy that their
    daughter is happy, and that is what they should be thinking about, not
    past pain.
    
    If the role was changed (mother left) I think people would be more
    sympathetic to her.
    
    JMO
    
    Mary
    

    The fault would be THE SAME if the mother did it instead of the father,
    we are not favoring genders. Family desertion is a fault, period.
    Ofenders are EQUALY GUILTY, man or woman. 

    I think that it is unconsionable that a parent would ask a child to
    exclude one of it parents.  As a divorced parent I feel that the child
    had nothinbg to do with my misery and I would not like my child to have
    to share in my misery...After all I chose her mither and I had the
    child with her mother and if it did not work out I stll did not ask the
    childs imput while it was going wrong.  Since the child did not have
    any input while the deeds were being done then I do do believe either
    my ex or myself have the right to put the child in the middle of our
    disagreements.   I would want my child to do what makes her happy and
    that incldes doing what is best for herself..  Her Mother and I will
    bear our pains and scars for the rest of our lives but that is not my
    childs problem.
    Bride have a nice day and just tell the parents how you feel and stop
    tsaking care of either of them... it is your day and don't let anyone
    rain on it..

    I think you should explain to your mother that yes you agree that
    he was not much of a father while you were growing up but that
    he IS your father and you would like to have some kind of relationship
    with him.  Also explain that he could never take the place in your
    heart that she has. etc.   And then invite him.  It sounds like
    you do not know his girlfriend anyway so why couldn't he come solo
    and sit with his side of the family and explain to him that it has
    nothing to do with his SO but mom would be more humiliated if he
    brought her to the wedding.  
    
    
    Good Luck and hope your wedding goes beautifully.

    Similar situation happened to my family a couple of years ago. 
    My sisters and I hadn't seen our dad in 17 years.  Both our parents
    remarried within a year and I never saw Dad again.  He started over
    and that was that.  Mom was sure reinforce what a crud he was, so
    I didn't think I should want to see him cause of her feelings. 
    That's where I think my Mom was wrong.  But my Dad could have seen
    us anyway.
    
    Anyway, my younger sister was getting married and she decided to
    ask Dad if he'd come for the ceremony.  He did.  My mom was excited
    to see him.  She had way to high great expectations.  My dad resents
    her for the entire Divorce.  So the atmoshphere between her and
    him was not good.  But they kept in line for the sake of the wedding.
    
    Things have progressed.  My dad's still very cold.  Even since our
    reunion a few years ago, which I though would be a new relationship
    is in fact not so great.  We keep in touch probably once a few months.
     I don't care for his wife or step-kids, but we're polite.
    
    It's all understandable to me.  I just accept it and that's about
    it.  He's my Dad, the only one I have.  My step Dad is out of the
    picture since 8 years now.  He left for another woman while he was
    stationed in Korea.    Yeah, life is wierd.
    
    So, I take Dad how he is.  He'll never be the great Father I dream
    about, but I don't want him out of my life.
    
    So, perhaps leave the invitation as is.  Let the chips fall as they
    may.  It was your gut reaction to invite him, so be it.  I think
    your mom will survive.  The folks at the wedding know who did all
    the hard work and so does your Dad.  

    Tell your Mom that Dad is coming.  It will be good for your Dad
    to be at the wedding and see how good your turned out in spite
    of his absense.  This will be good for you too.
    
    Tell your Dad to come alone.  If his new girlfriend is as nice
    as everyone says, she will understand.  This way, Mom won't feel
    so intimidated.
    
    This is the only way I can see where everyone might be happy
    Also, Mom and Dad might even have a chance to talk and smooth
    over some bad feelings.  You never know what good could come of it.
    
    Good Luck!