Conference quark::human_relations-v1

I've been told that this note was also posted as number 714 in
IKE22::WOMANNOTES-V3.  

				Steve

    Simple enough problem to address... I strongly recommend that you set
    down with her... explain that you've waited for her to address the
    problem herself... and it isn't being/getting resolved.  Suggest to her
    to seek out professional counseling... she may be addressing the
    problem as if the lack of desire is the problem.. when in truth there 
    could be any number of reasons from childhood abuse to medical problems
    that could be the cause.  Seeing a counselor would help establish just 
    what the problem is and help seek a cure for it.  But I'll suggest 
    something to you that might also help..... dump your temper, getting 
    angry does not solve the problem and may just cause further damage...
    Next thing... try becoming romantic.  If you have children, get rid of 
    them for a weekend somewhere.... have her go out shopping for an
    afternoon.... fix her a nice quiet romantic meal with candlelight and 
    roses.... soft music dim lighting... the works.  Don't get angry if 
    it doesn't work.  But, one of the most commen reasons I've heard of for 
    women who lose there "sex drive" is that the romance is no longer there 
    in the relationshp and they feel as if they are being "taken for
    granted"  This isn't something that will go away overnight (if it IS
    the problem) But needs to be addressed with patience and time, sympathy
    and understanding... not anger.  
    
    Skip

    I agree with Skip in that counseling definitely seems to be in order...
    but more on that in a sec.

    In order to address this problem, you have to ask yourselves some
    hard questions:

    First, you have to realize that different people do have different sex 
    drives; what's abnormally low for one may be abnormally high for another.  
    To put it another way; lack of desire is not NECESSARILY an indicator of
    a psychological problem... sex just might not be very important to that
    person.

    That said, you have to look at her lack of desire in a broader
    perspective; is her current level of desire (or lack thereof)
    abnormally low FOR HER?  Was she ever truly sexually responsive,
    or did she just lie there and let it happen even on the honeymoon
    night?  To put it another way, were you sexually compatible when
    you first got married, or was it unsatisfying and you kept quiet
    hoping it would "get better"?

    Another question you need to ask yourselves is: does she WANT to
    address this problem?  Is it a case where she'd LIKE to be responsive
    but the physical response just isn't there, or is sex TRULY not
    important to her?

    Finally, pull back even further and look at the issue in the context of
    your whole marriage.  Mr. basenoter, is it JUST the sex you're missing,
    or do you feel something ELSE is missing as well?  Do you feel that the
    intimacy, the sharing, the "warm fuzzies" are gone out of your marriage
    as well as the sex?  Do you and your wife TRULY communicate with each
    other, or do you just talk at each other and wonder if the other one
    got the message?  If so, then perhaps the lack of sex is symptomatic
    of a much deeper problem.

    Now back to the counseling issue:  I'd suggest both joint and
    individual counseling.  Sounds to me like all three of you (you, she,
    and "you" the couple) have issues to work out.  I get the nagging
    feeling that your complaint is a symptom of a much deeper problem.

    Prepare yourselves for some hard times... if you get a good counselor,
    and you really WORK on your problems, then it can be incredibly painful
    at times.  You might find yourselves screaming in session and crying
    yourselves home afterwards... this is normal for therapy.  The
    therapist's job, after all, is not to CURE you but to help you make
    contact with those feelings that are REALLY bothering you so that you 
    can deal with them and put them to rest.  Many such feelings lay buried 
    for YEARS under layers of guilt, fear, or denial.  Uncovering such 
    feelings can cause a LOT of emotional pressure to be released all at 
    once.  Many people stop the therapy at this point because the pain is 
    too much for them to take.  This is the worst thing you can do. When 
    feelings like this come out is a crucial point in the therapeutic 
    relationship.  Stopping the therapy at this point is like  stopping a 
    carpentry project once the wood has been cut.  All you have is pieces 
    on the floor; the work remains to put them back together into something 
    both beautiful and functional.

    Feel free to contact me offline if you'd like to talk about this some
    more...

    --jim

    re: .2 (Skip)
    
         He's not "wrong" to be angry.  He is entitled to his anger
    if that is what he feels.  He *can* learn to deal with the anger,
    of course, but don't attempt to make him add to the anger by denying
    it and therefore going into deeper angers (resentments, etc.)
    
    re: .0  I second the idea of getting therapy/counseling.  A bunch of
    people in notesfiles aren't going to resolve this issue for you.
    There are two people here both of whom need help.  You, to understand
    your own anger/rage/hurt, etc.  Your wife, to understand or to
    express the reasons she has for a failure to fulfill part of your
    marriage expectations.  There appears to be a lack of deep
    communication here with each other...clearly, your wife has been
    unable or unwilling to make herself vulnerable enough to communicate
    with you...and probably and most importantly with herself.  There
    is also an indication that either the bond of love between you is
    very strong, or else you are both terribly weak in co-dependency. 
    This is not easily ascertained, but a therapist working with both
    of you can sort this out.
    
         Even given that there is a physical problem, there is also an
    emotional problem here.  Since your wife seems to be unable to deal
    with it herself, she should get counseling.  If she refuses, then
    you need to take your feelings and honor them.  End the relationship,
    if that's what it takes.  But to stay in pain isn't serving you.  Her
    problem is up to her, give her an opportunity to resolve it.  No one
    should stay in a disfunctional relationship.
    
    Frederick
    

	I'd like to offer maybe something from the other side.  I can remember
(vividly) a period of my marriage where I had no desire to have sex with my
husband.  It really had nothing to do with the sex issue.  It had to do with 
the whole relationship.

	At the point in time I refer to, there was little or no communication
between us, there was no "us" so to speak.  We didn't do ANYTHING together..
eat dinner, pay bills, go grocery shopping, watch TV, nothing!  The only
time I felt that my husband was aware I was around was when he wanted sex.
It definitely left me feeling like I wasn't worth anything in the marriage.

	Well, after some real tough times, things have gotten so much better.
I actually want sex at times.  However, the other part of this has also changed.
We DO things together....even if it's as simple as going to Spag's, the bank,
the post office.

	Not to say that all the problems were my husbands.  In fact, I'd say
a lot of it had to do with my lack of self-worth.  It took me getting
counseling and working on my sense of self-worth and us getting counseling
and working on our communication skills.

	A spouse, be it husband or wife, needs to feel they are worth 
something to the other.  A husband doesn't want to feel that all he's good
for is a paycheck.  A wife doesn't want to feel that all she's good for is
cookings and sex.

	So, Skip's suggestions of "putting the romance" back into things
could be a good place to start.  It won't get better with just one try.  As
your wife starts to feel important to you (and maybe you do all this...that
isn't clear in your note), she may surprise herself.

	Of course, there is the real possibility that there is some sexual
experience in her past that is giving her some real pain.  And just because
you don't see anything being done, does not necessarily mean she isn't working
the issue.  She may also be scared to death to face it.  If it happens to be
extremely violent, well, frankly, I'd be scared to face it too.

	Good luck and keep us posted.

Faith

    Get help from a third party who is an expert in relationships.

    RE.4,
    
    Fredrick, I guess I didn't present my issue "properly"  I don't
    recommend that he deny his anger... however the "impression" I was left 
    with by the basenoter when he said he left it alone until he reached
    the "boiling" point is that he would literally "blow-up" at his wife in 
    anger and frustration because he wasn't seeing any kind of results...
    
    THIS doesn't accomplish anything...(words spoke in anger can damage a 
    relationship, sometimes more then a blow can.)  No I don't want him to 
    deny his anger as it is an apparent legitmate anger.... just consider 
    "venting" it somewhere or someplace other then in front of her.  A 
    violence group I delt with once recommended that you become aware of
    the signs of anger... then STOP before you lose control and leave the 
    situation... take TIME OUT and go for a walk... stay away from the 
    situation that is angering you for a minimum of 1 hour.... now this is 
    to control a violent and physically abuse temper.... however, I've
    learned to apply the same thing to a verbally abuse temper (my own) and 
    rather then direct my anger at my son or girlfriend (or ex-wife) I
    break away from the situation... explain that I need to take a
    "time-out" and walk away.... this gives me time to organize my
    thoughts... prepare responses to those issues/items that started to 
    anger me.  And even evaluate and determine if in fact the person has 
    a real gripe or just picking nits at the time.  
    
    On the issue of counseling.... I agree with the other noter (sorry I 
    forgot the name and note number) that recommended both seperate and 
    joint counseling... after further reflection it sounds like both of 
    you (basenoter and wife) need to confront some problems together.
    
    SKip

    
    I don't know if this applies to you r situation, but it is definitly
    true. 
    
    If a woman loses her sense of smell, for what ever reason, 80%
    of the time, they lose total interest in sex.
    
    I dated a girl who lost her sense of smell in a car accident, she
    had absolutly no desire for sex. This has been proven.
    
    Good luck,
    Al

    re: .7 (Skip)
    
         Okay, thanks.  I mis-read your entry.  What you said is
    valid, I believe.  The "rules" are: 1.  To express your emotion(s.)
    and 2.  To be *appropriate* in that expression.  (and then there
    are more "rules" beyond.)  I read your reply as 1. and you were
    on 2.  Sorry.
    
    re: .8
    
         I'll remember never to let a woman cover up her nose...;-)
         (is this sort of like with dogs?  That is, dogs don't "mate"
         unless the female dog gets touched, at some point, along the
         shoulder?)
    
    Frederick
    

    I always wondered why my Ex wore a clothes pin on her nose all the
    time!
    
    ;-)
    SKip

    Maybe there are things wrong that are very embarassing and self-esteem
    wrecking for your wife to admit to.
    
    Maybe (how do you put this tactfully?) what she needs to be in the mood
    isn't provided.   Maybe intercourse hurts.  Maybe there's something
    externally that bothers her.  If she finds herself easily distracted
    during romantic moments, that's a good sign the interest isn't there.
    Boy, there's lots of things that could be wrong--and probably all tied
    to something else not directly related to the symptom that is being
    shown.
    
    I'd have to sign my name by the others for the word counselling.  I
    know it's not a easy to get someone to go, and it's not easy for the
    person who should go to actually get themselves to go.  But unless you
    can establish an objective, comfortable repore (sp) and hammer out the
    problem between yourselves, a counsellor would probably be your best
    suggestion.

I just read up to response 3 and there were some excellent suggestions.
One thing I thought of that I don't know if anyone will bring up:

sometimes, this doesn't mean everyone:

sometimes the problems you outlined are deep seated. On ocassion this
type of dysfunction and avoidance is cause by the person having been
sexually abused as a child. The abuse is so horrendous to the child that
they hid from it, sometimes until adulthood. Something triggers the memory. 
They may have a flashback, but the mind continues to hid from the knowledge.
Sometimes sex..even good, healthy sex brings more flashbacks, so they try
to hid even more. Just a thought.

Regards,

Linda 

    
    
    Is she still IN LOVE with you? 
    
    Have you asked her? 
    
    
    Maybe she KNOWS how she feels, but doesn't think that YOU can deal with 
    it, or cares too much about you to hurt you. 
    
    Ask her if she minds if you find sex elsewhere?
    Her answer may tell you more than you expect. 
      
    

>>                    -< but is SHE still IN LOVE with YOU? >-

    
re.13		Now, we are getting down to the 'facts' ...

	Great questions..    

    If she has a high pressured job, that could have a lot to do with her
    low drive.  I advise your wife to get some counseling, or it is going
    to cause a major strain on your marriage.
    
    Lynne :-)

    
     .13 had some good questions.
    
     You might consider diging back into her past. Find out what her sexual
    situations and relationships were before you met. It could possibly be
    that sex had been a humiliating experiance in the past for her and she
    was simply fulfilling what she percieved to be her "wifely duties" in
    having a sexual relationship with you. Now she is tired of the charade.
    
    Sex is also rather intimate within a marraige, and is most likely the
    first thing to die as  unrelated problems are buried. If she can't
    stand something that is part of your personality, it is possible that
    it could repulse her enough to not want to be that intimate with you.
    
    Tony
    

    
    Just remember...
    
    	lack of sex drive is a symptom of a problem, not the problem
    itself.  As everyone here has also alluded to, get to the root of the
    problem.  The rest will fix itself.
    

    RE .16
    
    I do NOT recommend that you try this at home... without the proper 
    instructions you could do irrepairable damage to her, your relationship
    with her, and her entire outlook towards you! As I said much earlier
    It's a sign of a problem...  either physical or psychological.  If you 
    push the issue you could cause a lot of mental anquish!... leave it 
    for a professional... especially if it's related to rape or child 
    molestation!!!!  If you ask the wrong question at the wrong time you
    could very EASILY become a target for pent up frustrations....
    
    This is from EXPERIENCE!
    
    Skip
    
    

    
    
    I disagree that this is the sign of a problem either physical or
    psychological. 
    
    I agree that within the confines of MARRIAGE it is a problem. 
    
    But MAYBE it's as simple as she is not in love anymore. 
    
    Not everything has to come from something deep and dark. We should
    not assume that her current lack of desire stems from a horrid past.
    
    Look at how she is feeling NOW for the answers. 
    
    

    You don't think the problem isn't physical or psychological?
    
    It's one or the other... even if it boils down to the fact that 
    she hates his guts and can't stand the thought of being touched by him 
    ever again... that's a psychological problem... maybe it can't be 
    resolved but.... it's still one or the other.
    
    I don't suggest that its' a deep dark secret causeing the problem
    I suggest that counseling will help bring it out into the open...
    trying to do the counseling oneself can only cause more harm then 
    good.  She evidently doesn't want to admit to the basenoter what the 
    problem is... but continues to stay with him.... that suggests (maybe
    not so but still suggests) that she cares to stay with him for some 
    reason... if the sex in the realationship has become a problem them 
    counsleing will establish WHY not only for her but for him as well.
    
    It could be something as simple as having a doctor tell her it is okay
    for her to enjoy herself while having sex....
    
    Or as complex as some of the other possibilities mentioned... or 
    she may be contemplating a divorce.... or suspect he is...... It's 
    hard to feel affectionate with someone when you suspect that they 
    are thinking of "leaving" you.
    
    Skip

    
    I understand what you're saying , Skip, but I still don't think that
    No longer being in love with someone can be classified as a
    psychological problem any more that being IN love is one (well maybe
    it IS!!). 
    
    The only problem here might be that she can't bring herself to TELL 
    the basenoter (if this IS the problem). Are there kids involved? Is
    she afraid that she might lose them if it came down to a divorce?
    Maybe she has decided that it is better to live in a relationship
    without sex, then to live without her kids, or to hurt someone she has
    lived with for so long. 
    
    There are too many unknowns here, and it's unfair to say that SHE has a
    PROBLEM.  If she does have a problem, it might be simply in how to live
    in an unhappy relationship that she sees no way out of. 
    
     

    Maybe she is not in love with her husband, that is very simple... she
    cares for him but not in a romantic way... before getting into third
    parties help, I would try to talk to her in a very honest,
    understanding, sincere, and non-threatening way, and only then, after
    the subject has been discussed, talked about, and SHARED by both, I
    would seek a counselor, therapist, or whatever is needed to mend and
    alimiante whatever the problem is.
    Good communication between the couple is essential to resolve this and
    any problems that arise in any marriage. (if she has a problem, anger
    is not going to help it either, love and understanding could).