Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    You can not change society because it is composed by many, many people
    with many different backgrounds, and standards, and values, that differ
    greatly from one another, but one thing we can change is our own
    families and our environment, in there we put our OWN standards and
    values. If I had a "magic wand" I would teach children a bit more
    manners from much earlier than it is done these days... kids are let do
    whatever they want to do and that is NOT RIGHT in my point of view... I
    did teach MY OWN kids since day one not to interrupt adults when adults
    are talking, I taught them to go to their room to play when visits came
    over, and to be very quiet when at church, kids are very smart and they
    DO know when they can get away with anything... and they knew that they
    had to obey me in those subjects because I was consistent in explaining
    why they had to behave and... THEY DID, it was a joy going out with
    them, always behaved very nicely and people and friends were delighted
    to have them around because they were so well behaved.
    Other tabu is... free sex. I would uncover my "magic wand" and eliminate 
    so much promiscuity, so much fooling around as we have these days and 
    that would certainly curb the epidemics we have with vd, aids and all
    those related diseases and let's not talk of the many unwanted babies
    brought to this world only to be left out to whoever wants to adopt
    them... and those who go from foster home to foster home...  My magic
    wand would make SEX to be legitimate only inside MARRIAGE, and marriage
    only possible within genuine LOVE...
    That would put marriage where it WAS MEANT TO BE, before our society
    destroyed it with divorce, anulments, "open" marriages where anything
    fits...
    Can you imagine what kind or world that would be? what a nice dream...
    to have a world full of easy, happy, and clean people!
    
    p.s. (to those who do like promiscuity, little ummanageable brats, use
    of drugs and other "gifts" of our society... rejoice, my "magic wand"
    does not exist (except in my house)!
    aids and the like...

    Where does one begin...
    
    	- Change the way that children are being educated; how can they
    	  understand something like the constitution when they can only
    	  recite the amendments without understanding how they came about?
    
    	- Impart information that children will use later in life -
   	  balancing a checkbook, running a household, car repair, etc.
    
    	- Change the images that we see in advertising.  The majority of
    	  current ads have an underlying theme of "buy this product and
    	  all your problems will be solved..."
    
    	- Given that TV is such a powerful medium, why not use it wisely?
    	  Why is it that daytime TV has such loose restrictions?  Learn
    	  that there IS an "off" button
    
    	- It would be naive to wish for an end to crime and promiscuous
    	  behavior, but first we need to look at *why* such behavior is
    	  rampant.  
    
    
    No, there are no magic wands, but we don't need to accept that which no
    longer works.  The "old rules" are being thrown to the wind because
    times have changed; this leaves us with uncertainty about what lies
    ahead.
    
    It's up to each of us to stand up for what we believe is right.
    
    
    Judi
    

    Everyone would grow up in Manhattan.
    
    Ray

    re: .0
          
         On a personal level, there are lots of things to do...the things
    that we do to implement our principles...the things that reveal our
    character.
         But I like something that Lazaris has stated...there are three
    *obligations* (which exist until they have been replaced by needs,
    which in turn exist unless they've been upgraded to preferences) which
    parents have to their children:
    1.  To give them the best education that is appropriate for them to
    give.
    2.  To teach them "manners."
    3.  (The most important) To teach them self-love.
    
         I don't think I can improve on that...as I said, what I would do
    is to work on that implementation.
    
    Frederick
    
         

        Getting rid of the public school system would be a good
        start.  Why do parents send their children to schools
        that aren't allowed to teach their values and aren't able
        to teach the three 'r's?
        
        Dan

    This is partly triggered by a comment in .6, but reflects something
    I've been thinking about for a while.
    
    Why do "we" find it necessary that schools, TV, movies, whatever
    teach "our values"?  Whatever happened to us imparting our own
    values to our children?
    
    This is the most fundamental change I would like to see.  I would
    like parents to stop foisting the responsibility of how our children
    grow up on the schools and other external influences, and for
    these parents to acknowledge that THEY are the ones who are most
    responsible for what their child becomes.  If we as parents set
    a good example for our children, encourage curiosity, kindness
    and show them love, our kids will, by and large, turn out ok.
    
    I read much too much of people decrying the "bad influence" of
    cartoon characters such as Bart Simpson, or parents insisting that
    the schools teach their children how to behave in addition to giving
    them the gift of knowledge.
    
    I am a parent (how many of you who have responded earlier are?).
    I see the schools increasingly saddled with teaching children
    values that they should be learning at home, and this leaves less
    time for the job schools should be doing.  It seems many parents
    believe that they are not responsible for their children, and this
    is what has to change.
    
    My son gets his values from his parents.  We give him love, encourage
    him to reach for the stars, and develop in him a strong sense of self.
    And in this environment he thrives.
    
    And related to all of this, perhaps most basic of all, is this belief
    which I hold firmly.  In the most ideal world of all, each and every
    child who is born would be wanted and loved by their parents.  The
    corollary to this is that people who don't want to become parents
    shouldn't have to be against their will.  Ideally, this would be a
    result of education and medical advances in contraception.
    
    But this isn't an ideal world, is it?
    
    				Steve

Steve, I enjoyed reading your whole reply...
    
.7>    My son gets his values from his parents.  We give him love, encourage
.7>    him to reach for the stars, and develop in him a strong sense of self.
.7>    And in this environment he thrives.

Could you further elaborate on how you "develop in him a strong sense of self"?
    
.7>    And related to all of this, perhaps most basic of all, is this belief
.7>    which I hold firmly.  In the most ideal world of all, each and every
.7>    child who is born would be wanted and loved by their parents.

Perhaps this belief should be called the Fundamental Law of Humanity...
Do you have any others?
    
.7>    But this isn't an ideal world, is it?
    
Perhaps the Mission of Humanity is to make this an ideal world...

Regards, Don

        re .7,
        
        In "teach their values" in .6 "their" meant the parents'
        values, not the children's values.  "Reinforce" would
        have been a better word than "teach".  With a choice of
        schools one hopes it would be easier for parents to find
        one that at least tried to give the same message to their
        kids.  Then what is taught in the home wouldn't be
        untaught in the schools.
        
        Dan (not a parent)

    1.  Love and appreciate your own self as much as you do others.
    
    2.  Accept responsiblity for your own life and your own actions.
    
    3.  Learn that discipline is not a bad word or a negative concept, but
        rather the means for achieving your goals and living in harmony.
    
    4.  Discover the wonder and reward of curiosity.
    
    5.  Exercise your natural creativity on a daily basis so that you can
        bring joy to yourself and others and advancement to the world 
        around you.
    
    Karen
    

Re: .9

I understood what you meant, Dan.  I don't consider it the responsibility
of the schools to teach my values to my children.  I can do that just fine,
thanks.  If I do my job right, nothing that happens in the schools will
undo what I have done.

Re: .8

By "develop a strong sense of self" I meant that he is treated as an individual,
with feelings and responsibilities.  He is encouraged to make his own
choices (within the boundaries we set), express his feelings and to 
understand the consequences of his actions.  He is not an appendage of a
parent, but his own person.  Our job as parents is to instill in him the
knowledge and values that will help him grow into an adult.  A child who
believes in himself (or herself) won't be susceptible to "bad" influences.

			Steve

    RE: .5
    
    Why would you run away from home?  These are the values I was raised
    with; it didn't seem like too much of a drag.  
    
    Oh well.
    
    E Grace

    RE .9 Dan
    
    I think there's a danger in shielding kids from anything but their
    parent's values.  I prefer my daughter to be exposed to many different
    ways of thinking.  Otherwise she would not be aware that life consists
    of a myriad of different types of people from different backgrounds and
    experience levels.  She would not be aware that there are always
    choices to be made in life and would never have the opportunity to be
    challenged by those who may not agree with her.  I think that by
    answering these challenges we develop a stronger sense of who we are
    and what place values and integrity take in defining what "self" is.
    
    I'm not saying this is always easy for a child and that it doesn't take
    help and encouragement from the parents.  But in the long run I think
    it helps to develop a stronger personality and helps the child prepare
    for the challenges presented by the "real world".
    
    After all, if a child is raised in a bubble his/her view of the world
    is more than likely going to be pretty distorted.
    
    Nanci   

    to .5 from .1
    Why would you run from home? ... I don't think you qualify to get in,
    in the first place! but to update you on our children's development...
    those kids grew up with a great sense of values, very happy and very
    people oriented, multicultured, have travelled extensively by the time
    they were in Jr High, graduated from H. School in Japan, graduated suma
    cum laude from Tufts university with 2 majors and a semester ahead of
    her class, at 23, is a banker, lives in Manhattan, NY, has a nice bank
    account to herself, is 100% self-sufficient, and what is best, has been
    able to avoid unstable people who would harm her or make her suffer.
    
    What a drag! eh? I have two others, a 24 yr old who is a TV producer
    and a 16 yr who is a great wrestler, but I won't bore you any more...
    

	We go through three stages in life and perhaps more.  When 
	we were young, we saw the world and thought it was not good.  
	We decided to dedicate our lives to change it for the better.  
	Then we woke up one day and realized we could not really change 
	the world, so we set out to change ourselves.  At certain 
	point, we realized that that too was an illusion.  We became 
	fatalistic and resigned.  The only thing left to us were the 
	childhood memory, and we discovered that our inner vision had 
	become the vision of a wasteland.  We were left to wander 
	when our garden of Eden became a ruined wasteland.

	The parents' job is to prolong the first stage for their 
	children as long as possible and make sure that the third
	stage arrives at 72 not 27.

	Eugene

    Eugene - 
    
    Some of us never get past stage one despite the way we were raised. 
    :-)  And some of us go from stage one to two to three and back to one
    again and then even integrate one and two!  We may not be able to
    change the world on a global scale as individuals but we can change the
    way we perceive the world.
    
    Nanci 

	re .0

	A start would be to give our children respect from the
	very beginning of their lives.  Don't treat them as
	mindless/brainless beings during their infancy and
	childhood. 


	kits

    re .16,
    
    Nanci -
    
    Then I would say your parents did a great job. :-)
    
    Eugene

        re .10
        
>>    2.  Accept responsiblity for your own life and your own actions.
        
        I think that is definitely one of the most important
        things that can be taught to children growing up. 
        Especially as a large portion of the past couple of
        generations seems to have missed that lesson.
        
        Dan

re.15
When I was young I thought the world was a wonderful place as I aged I
discovered it had problems but never have I resigned from trying to make it 
a better place to live. Even with all it's problems life is great at least 
from where I see it.

-j

    in re .20
    
    I *forced* my kids to go to church when they didn't want to get up
    on Sunday, all of them today have a strong sense of spirituality
    that they acquired from both church and our discussions about
    church. I don't expect they will all stay in our church (Episcopal)
    but they are still people who believe that the spiritual is a part
    of life.
    
    and I forced my kids to be polite and not interupt when we had
    company. People who meet them today think that they are some of
    the nicest kids/young adults that they have met.
    
    We also allowed them freedom of mind and freedom to talk/aruge
    back. We were willing and still are to let them express opposing
    points of view and read what they chose to.
    
    But we also insisted on our family standards.
    
    Today we have one son, our oldest who has rebelled, as is normal
    for a teenager, young adult by becoming far more radical than
    we are. He's also about to be a father and is in a committed
    non married relationship and we love both of them and are supporting
    them. He is also a very spiritual person and very committed to
    helping peole, we are proud of him.
    
    Son #2 is much more conservative than we are and far more than
    his older brother. He's still involved in the church, and is
    actively involved in politics in college. We expect one day that
    he'll be governor with his  brother protesting outside the state 
    house. We are proud of him.
    
    Daughter #�1 took confirmation, and teaches Sunday school, both
    by personal choice but doesn't truely belive. She has not used
    her intelligence in high school, but is now working to get into
    college. She is turning into an excellant semstress, and has a real
    gift for working with people. We are proud of her.
    
    Son # 3 is mildly retarded. He has continued to try and learn as
    he has gotten older. He is a very loving child and has recently
    become an acolyted at church (tho he has trouble sitting still
    through the service when sitting alone and can't be trusted to
    carry a lighted candle in a holder because he fidgets too much.
    We are very proud of him.
    
    Daughter # 2 Is 13, she is currently flunking 2 subjects and uses
    bad language to us. She enjoys being an acolyte, she is active
    in church youth group, she is a total slob, and she is a typical
    early teen. we are very proud of her.
    
    Restrictive, rule organized childhoods do not turn out puppets, but
    give kids a basis to form their adult lives on.
    
    I agree very much with what Steve said about parenting. (and I think
    his son is a pretty neat kid!)
    
    Bonnie

    RE: .22
    
    Cheers, Bonnie!  It is nice to see parents who haven't been snowed by
    the "if you love them, you will let them do whatever they want"
    mentality (or maybe theories?) that seem so rampant today.
    
    I have many problems with my parents, but for one thing I am eternally 
    grateful: they cared enough to raise me with a respect for society and
    other peoples feelings and "space".
    
    E Grace

	"Love, Limits, Let them grow up."

					clb

    I have 3 children which I send to a Waldorf school.  I like their
    approach which tries to give each children an personal experience of
    history.  For example, look how writing is developed.  In grade 1 they
    would use several fairy tales - told from memory, not read.  Another
    day the children would draw a picture that they mentally formed.  It
    might be Rapunsel letting down her hair.  Then the teacher would find
    an "R" in the picture and outline it.  This would be, not the letter
    "R" but the Rapunsel Letter.  Later combinatorics would take these
    hieroglyphs and create each child's name.  Later still would come
    writing and still later would come reading thereby giving the child an
    experience of history.
    
    Its very important to realize that we all go through stages in life. 
    What was once a 7 year cycle, from birth to change of teeth to puberty
    to adulthood and so on has been decreasing to now less than 6 years. 
    Girls are having their first period at an earlier and earlier age. 
    Emotionally they are not yet there when their bodies are.  I believe
    this is because we HURRY our children to adulthood, ask them to think
    like adults (see .13) when their not ready - this harrassment of
    childhood affects their physiological development.
    
    Just as it ruins a flower to force it to bloom before its time by
    ripping off its outer sheath, we are adversely affecting our children
    by rushing them to think, feel, and act like adults.  Why rob them of
    their childhood??  Much foundation building takes place then.  Let them
    live in a world of fantasy - it will emerge as adult creativity later.  
    
    As for the school debate in earlier replies - I believe that the child
    needs an authority of truth in the ages 6-13.  But it has two or three
    or more.  It has the home(s), the school, and the church (if any).  If
    these are in conflict with one another, this undermines the child's
    trust in truth or in meaning to life.  Once the child has a foundation
    for loving the truth then let them go and discover the truth in the
    ages 14-adult-old age.  Yes, I support a choice program for schools but
    choice requires variety not just a choice of different manifestations
    of the same principle - materialism.
    
    Do any of you know the history of the "public" schools.  I'm extending
    this for those of you who are interested:
 
	  The public schools emerged from the Common School
          Movement which from the 1830s to the 1870s was largely and
          anti-Catholic movement. Ironically, the educational issue
          that divided Protestants and Catholics at this time was over
          how to teach the Bible in school. Riots ensued in districts
          that allowed the Catholics to use their Bible and related
          instruction - riots that burned homes and left scores dead.
          Protestant parochial schools were wide spread into the 1840s
          when unequal taxation issues were raised by Catholics.
          The issue was "resolved" by refusing public funds from go-
          ing to either parochial school. Instead, public funds went
          to a "common" public school that already was Protestant in
          essence. "Public" schools in this period and well into the
          20th century were run by Protestant clergy. The NH Consti-
          tution required all public teachers to be "Protestant" un-
          til stricken as no longer relevant in 1877.
               

    Well, I guess you asked for it... and believe me I am aware of the 
    impossibilities with this but here is what I would change.
    
    Our entire social structure... is backwards in my opinion.
    
    Here is the basic change I would make then I'll explain the benifits...
    Skip the problems with it.  We all know it can't work still....It's 
    a nice idea in theory.
    
    Our society is backwards in its structure of working from (aprox.) 16
    years of age until retirement at age (aprox.) 55.  I would change it 
    so you don't start working until age 55 and continue until you are 
    either too old to actually work or die.
    
    Here are the benifits.
    
    First of all.... parents would be around ALL DAY to spend time with 
    there children during the years they are needed most and can give a 
    much higher degree of influence on the children.
    
    They would be young enough to enjoy fully the things that we wait until
    retirement to do.  Imagine being able to travel and do the things our 
    parents/grandparents do now...plus the advantage of being able to do 
    them with our children.
    
    Now the oldesters have advantages to... when they retire after a while,
    many of them feel they no longer are capable of being "useful" if they 
    are working and filling positions during this age, then they are not
    only being useful but the older folks have the memories of a full life
    to reflect on in there old age.
    
    I know it won't work for a lot of different reasons but wouldn't it be 
    nice?
    
    SKip