Conference quark::human_relations-v1

I know what Ann Landers' response would be - she'd say "Nobody can take
advantage of you without your permission."  Her advice would then likely
be to stop pretending to "Sally and Sam" that you are at all interested in
socializing with them and to politely but firmly indicate that you just don't
enjoy the get-togethers and would like to keep the relationship strictly
on a business basis between Sam and your husband.  This can't be any worse
than the deceit you're practicing now.

					Steve

I would agree with .2...what's wrong with being honest? 





Jim

    
    
    
    I'd be honest with the people.
    
    It's not always easy, but you feel better in the end.
    
    Then again, I've been accused of being a bitch for being bluntly
    honest, so maybe it's not such a good idea.
    
    Hummmmm........
    
    
    I guess the thing to remember is that people don't like hearing
    negative things about themselves and they usually react defensively.
    (I know I do!)
    
    kath
    

   Frankly, I find "Sam's" tactics very intrusive, if not actually abusive. 
   He stands there and offers alternate dates???  He's badgering until your
   husband gives in!  Working together, shmorking together!  I wouldn't take
   that from anybody!

   I agree with some of the previous replies.  I'd be blunt about it.  If
   "Sam" asked why, I'd tell him why.  Keep that relationship on a strictly
   business level.  It's not worth the abuse to the two of you.


   							Terza

        Cancel the current invitation first ... sooner rather
        than later (i.e., not at the last minute) ... and without
        an explanation.  Then don't accept any more, again
        without an explanation.  If you say you are busy that
        day, that just encourages them to suggest a different
        day.  See the "parents who won't visit" note for the
        damage that giving excuses (beyond "I/We don't want to")
        can do.
        
        Dan

         Yep, it appears that you have two choices:  YOU suffer or THEY
    get a bit of reality introduced to them.  Since they may do the same
    thing to other people, you would be doing them the greatest good by
    telling them the truth.
    
         I'm sure they would rather be told by people as polite as you 
    appear to be, rather than someone brutal.
    
         Perhaps a comment to her husband could be made by your husband. 
    Something along the lines of "We think you are good people, but we just
    don't enjoy the way she dominates conversations."  If it insults them,
    that may be for the better.  However, you at least tried to be polite
    to preserve the working atmosphere.
    
                                       Greg   

    I disagree with Greg on the suggestion of explaining that the
    problem is Sally.  Indeed, this sort of thing works best when you
    explain it as YOUR problem (and indeed it is - you can't stand her -
    she has no problem!)  This gets you out of it without invoking
    an instant defensive reaction with possible negative effects
    later.
    
    			Steve

    how bout you go over to their house and the first second you walk in
    the door, you never shut up.....rehearse the whole thing with your
    husband so that neither of you ever runs out of topics.....
    talk about how wonderful you are and child birth and your first litter
    or puppies and what a great 10th birthday party you had....
    don't let her get a word in at all....
    
    maybe she'll get the idea....
    and maybe they'll get tired of your yacking and not invite you back.
    in either case, you'll get a little revenge and probably laugh all the
    way home!
    
    or....go through with the dinner, don't talk all evening, look/act
    incredibly BORED, even fall asleep on your husbands shoulder......
    
    sometimes some people need to be slapped upside the head with reality. 
    
    :-)cathy
    

    My comment would be ...
    
      Although we enjoy meeting new people and establishing new
      relationships we are committed already socially and feel 
      that we need to spend the rest of our time as a family.  
    
    I find that it is better to take a truth that exists and apply it
    rather than to tell a truth that might cause pain.  It does not sound
    as if you would enjoy the couples company even if Sally would shut up
    so that truth would have no purpose.
     

    RE: <<< Note 1110.8 by QUARK::LIONEL "Free advice is worth every cent" >>>

    >I disagree with Greg on the suggestion of explaining that the
    >problem is Sally.  Indeed, this sort of thing works best when you
    >explain it as YOUR problem (and indeed it is - you can't stand her -
    >she has no problem!)  This gets you out of it without invoking
    >an instant defensive reaction with possible negative effects
    >later.
    
         Somehow I can't see how Steve's alternative (of telling them that
    you can't stand her) would be taken any more positively than telling
    them what it is about her that you can't stand.
    
         The basic principle of this is that these people are so mentally
    entrenched in their behavior because people have been politely
    giving-in to them over time.  Chances are good that nobody has told
    them the truth.  True, the working relationship must AT LEAST be a
    consideration, but I think it unwise to fail to extricate yourself from
    such a clinging situation.
    
                                     Greg
                                                                 

Re: .11

No, that wasn't what I was suggesting, Greg.  I was thinking of something
along the lines of "We just don't seem to have a lot in common and perhaps
it would be best to just keep things on a professional level between our
husbands."  It's a no-win situation if you try to pin the blame on Sally.

				Steve

    By saying that you just don't have much time to socialize, that the
    free time you have you like to spend it with your family, that you have
    things to do on your own is a clear message that is easily understood.
    You have a right to CHOOSE your own friends, and the fact that both men
    work at the same office does not give them tyhe right to intrude in
    your life.  They invited you to their home and you did invited them to
    yours, so subject is closed, hospitality has been reciprocated and
    there is no need for further agonies on either part, (yours or theirs)
    and no need for strained words either, just simple truth, you are under
    no obligations to them.

    Go to dinner with them and BYBB*
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    * Bring your own BARF BAG ;-)

    It sounds like the more you decline, the more aggressively Sam pursues
    setting up some time to get together.  Since you work with Sam, sooner
    or later you'll have to let him know what's going on, unless you want
    to keep ducking the invites.
    
    If Sam insists on getting together socially and you are interested, why
    not do something like going *out* to dinner, movie, show, concert, etc. 
    If you're out doing something, you'll be in neutral territory.
    
    Does Sally realize that she's bulldozing the conversations?  If your
    wife has to seek refuge in another part of the house, then something is
    wrong on *both* sides.
    
    The choice may be either to keep the friendship limited to the office,
    or find activities that are interesting to all in a "neutral" area.
    
    If Sam is oblivious to his wife's behaviour, that's something that they
    have to work out between themselves.  If it affects you, try to talk to
    Sam about it...depending on how well you know him.
    
    
    Judi
     

    without reading the other replies.............
    
    Looks like you need a little support from your husband on this one.
    Tell "Sam" (your husbands job) the absolute truth. Not easy, I know,
    but I don't see any easy way out. The longer it goes on, the worse it
    will get. Your husband has to help you out with this and take the risk.
    
    Blunt, but seems like the only solution to me......
    
    ....Bob

    Sounds like Sally really needs some friends. She is so worked up about
    talking, she never stops to listen to anyone. Sounds like she is very
    insecure. Sounds like she very young too. I know alot of mouths like
    this. Sometimes the are just braggards, sometimes they are insecure,
    sometimes they don't know anybetter, and last they have the mental
    capacities of a house plant that hasn't been watered too much lately.
    
    I can only sympathise with you. I know that I use to have the same
    problem with my soon to be ex and our differences with our work related
    fields. I am a techie, she is in the restrant business and we had
    common things to talk about, and there were always folks who would
    try to show me what they don't know. But after sometime they would cool
    down and we would be the best of friends. I cannot say how much pain
    you have been though, but I would say try agian. Execpt learn to talk
    louder if you cannot talk faster than them. Then be ready to change the
    subject matter at a drop of a hat in order to keep from runnin down the
    rat hole of converstation. Try a board game to get their toungs to stop
    waggeling in waisted manner. If the conversation gets out of control. \
    Lean into her space and tell her something dumb to change the subject.
    Ask her about the thoughts of the moon crashing into the earth some
    summers night. Talk about the depletion of the ozone layer and what are
    they doing to help it. 
    
    I know that I have foamed at the keyboard here. But I know that good
    friends are hard to find, esp these days. Remember the Honeymooners, or
    All in the Family?? Remember how these charaters would make faces and
    how they would handle the unwelcomed guest?? 
    
    Have fun!
    George

    I can certainly see the point .18 is making, and it is obvious "Sally
    and Sam" are socially inept--sort of like a lot of us, but only
    manifested in a different and extreme way.  Indeed they are insecure,
    and in some sense terrified.  It would be kind of you to consider 
    them friends and as friends point out the obivious to them.  Of course, 
    we all have our life to live and it is hard enough without those extra
    problems.  In short, you are under no obligation to do so.  On the
    other hand, you might win two life long friends if you manage to help
    them out in a constructive way.
    
    Eugene
                                                   

Several months ago, we underwent a similar experience. We were
invited by a very talkative couple (they tend to both talk at the
same time, only stopping occasionally to vainly try to shut each
other up). A few days later, they called and invited themselves
over. The evening they came over was a disaster - I spent it sitting
on the sofa saying nothing (which anyone who knows me will attest is
a very unusual phenomenon). 

When it was over, I explained to the wife that THIS WAS IT! NO MORE!
She happens to have the social skills and grace of any two other
people (which averages out fine, since I have none) and has the
knack of saying precisely what she wants without ever sounding
harsh or abusive.

Since she handles all our social chores, she handled this one as
well. What she has done was simply and firmly reject all
invitations, either for us to visit them or vice versa. She has
managed to do this in a friendly manner, without giving insult (they
still call occasionally) and definitely without telling them we do
not enjoy their company. We haven't seen them in several months. 

-- Ron

    
    
    ....so what does she say then????!!!
    

    Sounds to me like "Sam" wants a break... and that he is probably aware
    of the problem.
    
    
    I think in this case your husband has to explain to Sam that his wife
    is the problem... I can't think of any way other than being blunt.
    
    
    In fact, if Sam is "desperate" enough to offer alternative dates then
    he is probably aware that you are reluctant...
    
    Maybe your husband could say something along the lines of "We're
    looking forward to coming ... but we do have a problem with Sally
    monopolising the conversation..."
    
    Then next time, if its no better you can then be even blunter!
    
    
    
    Xtine (never was tactful!)

    
    RE -1
    
    What she said.
    
    It sounds to me as if Sam is aware of the "problem".
    Maybe they find your company "desirable" simply because you're the only
    people in the neighbourhood who'll still put up with her! (sorry, but 
    you did say that you don't seem to have much in common....)
    
    If your husband and Sam get on resonably well, I think he should just
    explain to Sam that his wife does monopolise the conversation (good
    phrase!) and that this does not lead to an enjoyable evening for
    you two. He could explain that, apart from anything else, you two
    would like a chance to talk with him as well as his spouse....
    
    Come to think of it, how does Sam react when his wife is rabbiting
    on? Does he look embaressed? Not notice? Back her up? Does she
    let him get a word in edgeways? Did *he* notice some of the hilarious
    comments you and your husband slipped in?
    
    Do let us know what happens!
    'gail
    
    
    
    
    
    

    
    Gosh, the solution seems so incredibly EASY to me...
    
    The writer said she is the parent of 1 child, and these folks have NO
    children.  Just take the child along to the house with them.  You see,
    kids want ALL the attention and if you're somewhere where you've got to
    give it to someone else (because she's talking all the time or
    whatever), kids will usually do something extraordinary to get the
    attention back to them where it belongs!  And usually, especially with
    folks who have no children... it can bring havoc and possibly an early
    night.  Who knows, with very little encouragement I'm sure you could
    get out of that house within an hour.  
    
    
    					;-)
    
    
    							jean

    Jean,
    
    	That sounds like a GREAT plan! I remember when I had some unwanted
    guest who had 5 children and these little ones were as wild as the 
    New England stroms! Well the fun part was when I got even with their
    mom and dad. Some tin kazoo's and some sqirtguns are alot of fun! Esp
    when you show them how to play before they get into the family car and
    make a long drive home. A very long drive home........

    I see absolutely no reason to come up with convoluted scheme when a
    simple no will do.  As someone said before, a simple no couldn't be any
    worse than those schemes.  For some strange reason, my sympathy is with 
    the couple.  For the noter in .0, it is at most an annoyance.  "Sam and
    Sally" are most likely socially isolated and perhaps subconsciously
    deeply in need of close friends.  A few friends of mine were very 
    irritating the first few times we met, but they are also the ones with 
    the deepest personalities.  Come to think of it, they later hinted
    that I was quite irritating to them too when we first met.
    
    Eugene

    
    	If your husband and Sam get along, the next time Sam asks,
    	why doesn't your husband suggest that the two of them do 
    	something together, instead?
    

I agree with .26 - a simple no is better than a convoluted scheme.
IMHO, the whole situation got started because of deceit.  If you and your
husband had already decided not to invite them over, then that is what
Sam should have been told when he asked when they would be invited.

How in the world is Sam supposed to be able to tell the difference between
"we're busy on that date" (but we don't want to invite you on any date)
and "we're busy on that date" (but another date might be okay).  Sam can't
read minds.

On the other hand, if I were in Sam's shoes, I'd have my own doubts and
would ask you to clarify so I didn't jump to the wrong conclusion.

IMHO, there aren't many people who want to hang around where they *know*
they are not welcome.  And the key word there is *know*.  I know I would
rather be told honestly.  Sure it would sting.  But its not as bad as the
pain of finding out you've been led to believe you were welcome when you
weren't and all you did was lack the capacity to read minds.
    
    Mary

Mary
    

    re .28,
    
    It all depends on your point of view and what you want to do.  From
    what limited information I can extract from .0, I do not detect any
    malice in "Sam & Sally"'s invitations.  Granted they are annonying and
    they lact social skills, but there is also no doubt that their invitations 
    are most sincere, and sincerely they believe that the noters of .0
    enjoyed the parties.   If we take that point of view, we are less
    likely to turn our irritation into revenge like actions.  
    
    I have, in many occassions, overstepped my welcome (as I am sure
    we all have), and I always appreciate a direct approach.  Then there
    were a few times when I stayed too late, and was never invited back
    again.  Of course, I learn a few things after a while.  Obviously, "Sam
    & Sally" haven't, but that is not a sin worthy of "unethical tactics".
    
    Eugene

At the moment I MAY be in a similar situation...


there is a guy I really like, who I see quite often, but always on my 
invitation... he always SEEMS very pleased to hear from me and always SEEMS to
enjoy my company...


I was getting to the stage where I was getting reluctant to ofer any more
invitations in case he is just saying yes out of politeness, but then I think
well if he's too shy to ask me out I'd be cutting my nose off to spite my face,
and if he really hated it he'd say NO.  If he wheezled out of invites I would 
be more suspicious...

This topic has once again aroused my suspicions... next time I see him I think
I might ask outright...

but how do you do that?  "Hey, how come its always me that does the asking??"
or "I hope you don't just see me for fear of saying NO"...


The key thing is that I am NOT a mind reader, while he continues to appear to 
be OK about being asked I'll continue to ask...  much as I wouldn't like it if
it was otherwise I'd rather be told - otherwise I'm making a fool of myself.  



Xtine

    
    
    
    RE: .31  Xtine
    
    you're not alone.  
    
    I'm currently sorta-kinda dating someone that is exactly the same way.
    I say "sorta-kinda" because basically, I got fed up with it happening
    all the time.  I've asked him NUMEROUS times what's going on and why
    *I* always do the asking and why *I* initiate everything, and he
    doesn't answer (sometimes it's as if I never even asked the
    question....like he didn't even hear it).  I haven't talked to him in
    quite a few days, but I know that if I initiate a conversation, he'll
    gladly participate.
    
    Frankly, I'm sick of it.  Friendships should be two-directional...  If
    he won't talk about it, what else is there for me to do?????
    
    
    kathy

    re .31 and .32
    
    I think that if you feel like a relationship is kinda one-sided, then
    the best thing to do is ask. Yes, it might be risky. But if you get a
    vague answer, then it's very possible your suspicions/fears are right.
    If you get a real discussion about it, then you should know the answer
    at that point. If they say sure it's a two-sided thing but they didn't
    realize it appeared one-sided, it's a chance for them to work on the
    problem. If they sya yes, but nothing changes it was probably B.S.
    
    I know I should probably take my own advice more often, but it's not
    anywhere near as easy to do as it is to say..........
    
    But that's the way I see that anyway.....
    
    ....Bob

    Low self-esteem is one reason for always taking the role of the-one-
    who-is-asked.  ("Jeez, he/she just saw me last week; I'd better not bug
    him/her again for a while.")
    
    Laziness, short attention span, self-sufficiency, hatred of answering
    machines, or, OK, one-sidedness to the relationship, are all also
    possible reasons.
    
    Ray

    every time i've had to ask why it was one-sided, i've been shot down.
    
    that is to say, it turned out the other person was so flattered by my
    interest (romantic or platonic) that they would accept, even though
    they had no desire to have any sort of relationship with me (beyond
    basking in the glow of my affection, that is).
    
    lee

    We seem to have gotten off the particulars of the base note, and I am
    sorry but I really felt compelled to add that I was in a "one-sided"
    friendship 7 years ago.  I was the one initiating things with a friend
    but she always said ok and we alwaus had a good time.  I asked her why
    she never initiated - even called to say hi- and she just said she
    didn;t know.  Well it turns out she is just that kind of person.  She
    rarelylls people or initiated *UNLESS* they are really good friends. 
    Sooooo, I pursued (somewhat annoyed) and continued to initiate.  We
    became better friends and one day *she* called me just to say hi.  I
    was soo happy.  She is my best friend to this day.  Tough (one-sided)
    start, but WELL worth the effort!!!
    
    Now...back to the base note?????????????
    

>STAR::RDAVIS "Mr. Earl"                               9 lines  29-NOV-1990 13:43
>    Low self-esteem is one reason for always taking the role of the-one-
>    who-is-asked.  ("Jeez, he/she just saw me last week; I'd better not bug
>    him/her again for a while.")
>
      And I thought it was HIGH self esteem.. This leaves the asker feeling in
      control and responsible.
      Rgds,

    There's a lot of similarity between what's being talked about here and
    a discussion in note 557 in WOMANNOTES_V3.  One sided friendships and
    people not being able to read someone's hints.  Its an example of how
    much pain can be inflicted in situations like this.  IMHO "honesty is the
    best policy."
    
    Mary

Re: .21 by WELMT2::WOODS,

>    ....so what does she say then????!!!

I assume the above questions what exactly, does one say to refuse an
invitation and still sound cordial. 

A good approach is to say that you are very, very busy nowadays (you
know, all these family commitments...) and are leaving your options
open. If the other person insists ("pick you own time"), you say you
are not sure what evenings are open, since your sister (mother,
daughter, son-in-law, whatever) should be calling tomorrow or the
day after or next week at the latest, and you will get back to them
after that call. 

The question is how to do this, time after time, and still remain on
their good side. The answer is, I don't know, but my wife does. 

---------------------------------- 

A quick comment about the tangent concerning one sided
relationships. I don't know whether it's due to low self esteem,
high self esteem or even if the issue is related to self esteem at
all - but I would NEVER become part of a one sided relationship. If
someone does not think highly enough of me to reciprocate my
interest, I figure the relationship is very unlikely to be
enjoyable, so why bother? 

-- Ron 

    Back to the basenote...

    I agree with all the stuff about honesty. If you can't tell her yourself
    then go via Sam who, as has been suggested, might be well aware of the 
    discomfort caused.  I have a neighbour like this, and he spends half his
    time taking the p*** out of her - she knows very well that she rabbits on
    but she is just too nervous to stop.

    On the other hand, I know someone who's a bit deaf, but won't get a hearing
    aid.  He talks a lot I suspect to avoid having to have a two-way 
    conversation that he couldn't follow.

    Anyway, let us know what happens next...
  
    Peter

    I would like to update you on the situation and also to say thank you
    for all your replies. As I read them, I could feel that there are
    really people out there who are sensitive and thoughtful and who really
    try to treat people the way they would like to be treated.  This is a
    very important statement for the rest of humanity, and we should
    recognize it when it occurs. Thank you all!
    
    I also showed the majority of the replies to my spouse and he found
    them  all very interesting and thoughtful! 
    
    What the outcome was that my husband encouraged me to go but
    acknowledged that this would be the last time and that this would be a
    'final' reciprocation to them for the last time they came over our
    home. Again, since he works with the guy he felt that Sam wanted to
    reciprocate to us - that was a priority to Sam.
    
    Also, even tho one noter mentioned it, we came up with the idea to
    bring a board-game along to introduce a different way of communicating!
    (this one requires silence and thinking on the part of the players!)
    And, that we would leave at a courteously early hour.
    
    He would agree with the majority of noters that honesty is the best
    policy but he just cant bring himself to discuss Sam's wife's
    shortcomings with Sam, and would prefer the silent hint approach of not
    (after this last time) accepting invites. Many of you said "I would
    know if *I* wasnt wanted and would drop the issue"..he wants that logic
    to kick in., and hopefully someday it will.
    
    So that is what we are going to do. Again, you all have really helped
    us to think thru the situation and we appreciate all of your thoughts
    and concern!
    
    take care,			me
    

    
    A board game!
    What a great idea!
    
    Why didn't I think of that? :-)
    
    Which one are you taking??
    
    That one where you have to take moral decisions, or guess which
    decision other people would take in a certain situation, could
    be *wicked* fun ...;-)
    (Drat! What's it called?)
    
    'gail
    
    

    'gail
    
    Scruples.
    
    E Grace

    Interesting.  Like Gene, I do find myself feeling sorry for "Sally." 
    It sounds like she may have some problems. *sigh*  
    
    If I were the wife in .0, my first suggestion would be to tell my
    husband, to tell "Sam" that he doesn't think the friendship will work
    as couples because the wives don't have enough in common.  The two men
    can be friends if they get along well together and can occasionally do
    things together if they want, as someone suggested previously.  There
    is no reason why married couples can't have individual friends, as well
    as other couples.
    
    Then, if Sam and Sally persisted in continuing to badger us with
    invitations to get together as couples, I would try to keep saying,
    "No, I'm sorry we can't make it.  Things are really hectic right now. 
    We've got a lot going on."  I don't think a more detailed reason should
    be necessary.  Then, if they still insisted on getting together on a
    certain evening, and I had tried to say no, but they wouldn't take no
    for an answer, I would just not show-up.  They could invite us over for
    the next 40 yrs., and we would just never show up.  The heck with them. 
    They'd have to give up some time. (of course not showing up requires
    the cooperation of the husband, who would have to agree to not show up
    also)
    
    As far as Sally talking too much, I wonder how much talking the other 3
    tend to do.  Sometimes when one person talks too much it's because the
    other people don't seem to have anything to say, and the silence makes
    them nervous so they react by chattering on mindlessly.  Just a
    thought.
    
    Lorna