Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    re: .0
    
         The umbilical cord needs to be severed as a person leaves 
    adolescence and enters adulthood.  The results of not cleanly doing
    so produces the plethora of grown-ups we see today (grown-ups, by the
    way, can be defined as people stuck in childhood, adolescence or critical
    parent stages whose bodies mature, age and rot without ever
    experiencing a true adult at the helm.)  At 26 years of age, your
    parents should either be friends or memories or both.  They
    should no longer be parents.  Running your life for parental approval
    will deem itself disastrous.  So, from my perspective on life,
    I'd say chuck the parents as a reason for your relationship.
         The problem here isn't the parents or the distance.  The problem
    is that *you* aren't clear about your position.  IF there is no
    hurry for you, then sit back and take your time.  If time is important
    to you, then give yourself a certain period of time to "soul search"
    within and then base your decision on what you feel is the appropriate
    balance for you from among your self-components (emotions, intellect,
    intuition and body.)  Based on what you wrote, most of those areas
    are "yes."  
         NO one can ever be absolutely certain everything will work out.
    Life is risky, but by making oneself vulnerable one can experience
    the joys and pleasures of love.  This does not mean one should play
    ostrich (by hiding one's head in the sand and pretending no one can
    see them) but it does mean taking a willingness to have more.  And
    don't expect someone else to do it for you (another parent
    projection...take responsibility for your own life and your own
    decisions.)
    
    Frederick
    

   Hi anon,

   It's your life!  You get to choose how you want to live it, not your
   parents.

   What really counts here is how you feel about the situation.  I hear some
   ambivalence around commitment, marriage, like you're not really that
   comfortable or secure with the relationship.  (or he isn't, or both of
   you aren't)

   Basically, you'll have to let him know what you really want, and ask him
   what he *really* wants.  Then talk about how the two of you can put those
   wants together and what's most appropriate for each of you *and* the two
   of you.

   If you have any concerns at all about the relationship for the long term,
   this is the time to bring them out!  If you're not comfortable about
   laying everything on the table with him, then that is something to
   consider as well.


   							Terza

    > However, my family is devastated and refuse to even really 
    > accept him in my life. 
    
    A previous reply gave some pretty good advice about this, but didn't
    acknowledge the very real loss that comes from making a choice that
    severs ties with parents you love.  Your intent to move closer to your
    parents because your mother is ill suggests to me that you aren't the
    type who can sever those ties easily.  I can't advise you here, except 
    to suggest you get some qualified counseling about this.
      
    > His 
    > money situation is worse than mine (hard to believe!!!), and 
    > having the kids over (although I really like them) can be 
    > frustrating.   
    
    The money situation and the presence of the kids will only get worse in
    the early years should you decide to get married.  It's better to be 
    prepared for this reality than to ignore it because of the stars in
    your eyes and the tug on your heart.  (Oh, yes, if the two of you
    aren't in great financial shape, how will you provide for two -- count
    'em, two -- families?)
    
    
    > They say my friends are too 
    > young to know what trouble and heartache I am headed for.   
    
    'Tis true.  And that's what parents are for -- to warn their children
    of dangers ahead.  It's up to you as an adult to decide whether your
    parents' experience and concern for your well-being should carry more
    weight in your decision than your friends' well-meaning but uninformed
    advice.
    
    > He will go there with 
    > me ('though it's further from his kids) because he wants to 
    > get married and start another family.  
    
                                     and 
    
    > his father had left his mother when he was young, so he vowed 
    > never to do that to his children
    
    Do you see the contradiction in these two quotes?  Does he see the
    contradiction in these two quotes?  How will you (both of you) handle
    it? 
    
    
    For some real eye-opening glimpses of what your life together will be
    like, I'd recommend you read the entries in the BLENDED_FAMILIES
    and NON-CUSTODIAL PARENTS files.  'Cause some version of the problems
    discussed there will be what you will have to face as the wife of a
    divorced man.  And don't let the stars in your eyes and the tug at your
    heart blind you to the fact that yes, it CAN happen to you.
    
    And then you'll be better able to decide how much you want to marry
    this man.
    
    Karen 
    

I agree with all the replies; very well thought out. read them more than 3 times
each.

My advice; dont marry him, but live with him.  All the grief of kids, x-wife,
money, your parents may cause too much stress; you may realize you really dont
love him THAT much.

And, sounds like living with him will garner just as much disagreement from
your parents as marrying him....so wait.

-N

I would also advocate living with him, rather than marrying.

My parents and I are very close, but when I lived with my boyfriend they 
were very upset, disappointed in me and hurt that I would disregard thier 
deepest held beliefs (although they are not Catholic they are very moralistic).

It took some time for them to "come around" and even then it was under suffrance
- they had Denis and I for Christmas and even though we were then engaged they
still strongly dissaproved.

However, we split up earlier this year and both before and after the
split my parents  were great.  To them (and us) we might has well have
been married and splitting up was just as hard.  They not only supported me
but also Denis.  

When I talk to my mum now, she says she still cannot condone living together,
but realises that that is the way things are these days.

If you are close to your parents they will cope, they will still love you, and
when you need them they will still be there...

Time will tell... if it all works out then great! if not, don't be afraid to
say you tried; like my parents yours will still be there, and will probably
not say "I told you so" - even although they did ;-)



Xtine

    Try with all your heart not to commit a mistake... just think that
    MARRIAGE is forever, there will be NO WAY OUT... and then see if you
    can take it.  If you do, you love him WELL ENOUGH to go through your
    entire life with him, but if you doubt... you have the answer there!
    You are young and unatached, you deserve to start your own family, not
    carry somebody else's besides yours.  If money matters are difficult
    now, how is it going to be if you have babies of your own? would it be
    any better than now?
    I think that your parents are very wise and you are fortunate to have
    them but of course the decision is yours and yours ALONE.

    
    
    
    When I was in college, I realized that I was there because that was
    what my family wanted me to do.  I can remember as a small child being
    told I was going to go to college.  I can remember being told the same
    thing each time a new school year rolled around.  
    
    I went to college and hated what I was doing.  I was enrolled in an
    EE program and had to decide whether to stay in college or stay in
    the EE program.  Through alot of soul searching I came to the
    realization that I would switch programs much to the dismay of my
    family.  They were glad that I was not leaving college, but very
    disappointed with my decision to switch programs.  I was scared of
    facing my family with my decision, but glad that it was something
    that I decided to do for myself not for anyone else.
    
    You have much the same decision to make.  Do you want to keep doing
    things to please your family?  At what cost to you?  You have to
    decide whether or not you want to put yourself before your family.
    Remeber, you are the only one who is responsible for your happiness.
    Others can influence you, but they are not responsible for your
    decision.
    
    
    I know how it feels to be in your situation, but if your parents
    truly love you for who you are not for what you are or how you act,
    they will in time learn to accept your decision.
    
    Michele

    I vote do what you want. Reason is that even if you find a man with
    little or less baggage, you may still be involved with this sort of
    tom fooler later on, as in creating it or being a part of it..
     With the way divorce is these days who cares what
    anyone else says or thinks. Maybe you will settle down and live happy
    ever after, or maybe not. The odds are in either case of finding
    someone with less bagage or marring him are too high that you will be
    with him or them in the next 7 years. So I enjoy what you can with
    who you care to be with. If you want to start a new family, go for it! 
    You can't wait for ever for Mr. Right, it maybe too late to have
    children if you do. And I know a few of these ladies!
    

    "seemingly not as much as he loves me ..."
    
    You are not sure.  Please don't do it just for HIS sake.  I agree in a
    way with your parents.  Money (or the lack of it) causes lots of
    problems in relationships.  You might end up resenting him and his kids
    for your financial status after you marry.  Things *do* change, but I
    was in a similar situation (although I had to choose between a dear
    friend who I wasn't head-over-heels with and a man I barely knew who
    was divorced, broke with three sons and I was fatally attracted to!).  I
    chose the dear friend, and now I'm head-over-heels.  My mom told me I
    was always attracted to the wrong guys (which I'm *sure* of!).  Maybe
    this is your case, as well.
    
    IMHO.  Good luck.  I do know several "other women" who ended up
    marrying their lovers who had kids and they are now relatively happy
    but terribly broke and most of the problems they have revolve around
    money and the kids and the ex.  Predictable ...
    

    I am not the age group you are asking however, i did have a personal
    experience which was very similar.  At the age of 17, I met my
    'soul-mate', the one I should have stayed with.  He was divorced,
    had a child by yet another woman, and was from the 'wrong side of
    the tracks'.  My mother was also 'very Catholic' .  At first I went
    with my own instincts; this man provided me with all the love and
    acceptance which had been missing from my childhood.  We moved in
    together and were very happy for a while.  Eventualy after several
    years of my mother bashing our relationship, I fell into a deep
    depression.   It took me years after I had gotten out of the
    relationship to realize that it was not the realtionship which had
    caused my depression; rather it was my childish wish to please my
    mother.  I know now that if I could have realized the problem at
    the time I would probably still be very happy in that realationship.
    I guess my point is; don't choose to stay or go to please anybody
    else.  It is your life, you are the one who will reap the pleasure
    or pain from your decision.  If your family realy loves you they
    will accept your decision.  If your family will not accept a decision
    you have made for your own happiness, (as long as they have no reason
    such as seeing you in an abusive relationship)  then maybe they
    realy can't see far enough beyond their own noses to see what's
    good for you.
    
                                 Kate
      

    First of all, I want to express my thanks to all who have 
    replied to this note.  I really am interested in hearing what 
    other people (unbiased) think, and (re .10) I am interested 
    in hearing from any aged person, not just the ones over 49.
             
    I felt inclined to respond a bit to some of what was said:
    
    Re .3 (the contradiction of his father leaving his mom, and 
    him saying he wouldn't, then did)  He realizes this, and 
    simply held out in his marriage as long as he could...the 
    youngest is 10, so at least they weren't babies. ALSO, his 
    father left, never to be heard from again......unlike my 
    boyfriend who wants his kids to live with him, and spends as 
    much time and money as possible with his kids.  Believe me, 
    he did his kids a favor by getting divorced.  Never before 
    have they seen him (OR their mom!) so happy.
             
    Re. .9 who tells me not to get married for HIS sake:  DON'T 
    worry! I know better than to do that.  In fact, that's sort 
    of the mistake he made when he got married......
             
    Re .5  Your story sounds like what I really do believe my 
    situation would be like if I decided to get married, or live 
    with him.  My parents have always been over-protective, but 
    also always supportive.  They go out of their way to 
    "strongly encourage" me to do what they believe is the best 
    thing, but ultimately the decision is mine, and after a while 
    (LONG probably) and lots of arguments, they will accept what 
    I have done, ESPECIALLY if I am happy..because that is all 
    that they want.  They are just worried about me doing 
    something to prevent that somewhere down the line.....that's 
    what parents DO.  (Thank God).  I will do what I really want 
    in the end even if it hurts them, but right now I am not 
    sure, so therefore I _don't_ want to hurt them.  Does that 
    make sense?  
             
    Anyway, their over-protectiveness is part of what prompted me 
    to move 3 hours away.  Most of my family members live within 
    1� of each other, at most.  I was always set on going away, 
    something my sister (one and only - younger by 1� yrs)  would 
    never do. (by the way, she feels exactly as my parents do on 
    this matter.)  My mother thought it took a lot of guts to get 
    up and move to a strange city with no family or friends 
    (maybe it did..) and didn't think I should do it.  But I 
    did...and despite lobbying to get me to come home once in a 
    while, they have accepted it - and maybe even given me a 
    little more respect?  And I have gotten a lot more of the 
    freedom I wanted.  How do you think I managed to live with a 
    man for 6 months without them finding out??!?? (granted, he 
    could never answer the phone, poor guy!)
             
    I suppose what this is about is that I certainly wish he 
    didn't have his "extra baggage" because I KNOW that will only 
    make life a lot harder, but should I just walk away _because_ 
    of that????????  I know there are no correct answers or 
    guarantees, that's why I sought out the thoughts, opinions 
    and experiences of others in the notesfile.  Again, I thank 
    you all for taking the time to share your thoughts, and 
    please feel free to keep them coming!!!  
             
    -anon 
    

    
    It appears that there are two issues here. One is whether or not
    you can live with "his baggage". That one seems pretty straight
    forward. You decide what's right for you and you do it. I did that
    16 years ago and despite the fact that my staunch Irish-Catholic
    mother was against my marriage I did it anyway. Sixteen years later
    my wife and my mother are friendly (not best friends but friendly)
    and my wife has just this year converted to Catholicism. We've
    had some ups and downs and some of them have related to the "baggage".
    But we struggled through them because of how we felt about each
    other. Our commitment to each other has been strengthened by the
    "baggage" rather than harmed by it.
    
    	The other issue you need to deal with is more complex and much
    more serious. It would appear that you really aren't sure that this
    is mister right. You need to sort out how much of this is guilt
    over your relationship with your parents and how much is between
    you and your SO. The guilt you can live with and work on. The
    differences with your SO may be a little tougher. 
    
    "A person can fall from love with another, but a parent will always
    love its child"
    

    No time to read the replies to this, and maybe by now it's been beat to
    death, but............
    
    You're 26 years old, old enough to be able to make decisions yourself.
    You have to think this over real carefully, and set your priorities. In
    other words, is he more important than the opinion of your family? If
    the answer is YES, then you have to act accordingly and the heck with
    what your family says. If they "disown" you, or something along that
    line, then it becomes their problem, not yours. Be sure you're
    comfortable with that possibility. It the answer is NO, then you should
    put the relationship on a cooler basis and get on with your life.
    
    Not an easy choice, and I pray you make the right decsion......
    
    ....Bob

    I spent 8 years being the divorced woman with the "baggage".  And I
    came to be extremely angry when a boyfriend's mother hated me without
    ever having met me, simply because I was divorced with children.
    This happened at least twice.  It isn't *fair* to object to someone you
    have never met.  I was *never* after a man to take care of myself and
    my children, though I was accused of it a few times.  I thought as long
    as I made him happy, and we got along well together, what right did his
    mother have to try to split us up?  
    
    Maybe you can tell this is really one of my HOT buttons!  In your case
    the only thing that concerns me is the financial situation.  From
    experience I can say it's difficult to climb out of a financial hole,
    and it can put a strain on a relationship *if you LET it*.  8 years of
    single-parenthood had me in pretty deep, and my current husband was
    almost as bad, and the road out is long and slow, but it can be done.
    Just don't let it be a problem in your relationship.
    
    You don't come across Mr. Right every day, and if you think this man is
    it, go for it if you have the strength to make a go of it without your
    parents' support.  It's your life (and his), not your parents', and
    you have the God-given right to make your own decisions.
    
    Best wishes,
    Paula

    At first I was going to give a clever little tight answer... based on 
    some past experiences and other problems....
    
    Then I realized you wouldn't understand the bases for my answers....
    Okay so a little history....
    
    I was married when I was 21 and in the Navy... my parents didn't
    approve of the girl, I carried that inside my heart and married her 
    any how.  Eventually they accepted her... 2 years later I lost her 
    in an auto accident.
    
    Later after much healing inside myself and then a "rough" period where
    I just didn't care about anyone else, I met my second wife, we were 
    Married for two years and had known each other longer then that. I
    ended up divorcing her after the birth of my now 6 year old son.  I
    guess I should mention that I lost a son in the accident with my first 
    wife as well as her. 
    
    So now I have a lot of "baggage" as you described it.  That makes me 
    and "undisirable" for a lot of people and I've gotten where at first 
    I didn't mention to much about my past.  The fact is I made some
    mistakes and had some bad luck in my past.  I didn't become a three
    headed monster because of it.  My feelings didn't go and turn me into 
    some sort of axe murderer or anything else.  I am like everyone else 
    a human being with human emotions, intellect, and foul ups.  
    
    I HATE SNOBS who think they are better then me because of my past.  I 
    used to let it get to me but as I grew older (I'm now 34) I realized
    that people who can not see that I simply made a mistake in my second 
    marriage and had some very bad luck in my first, are not only SNOBS but 
    ignorant to what being human is.  They ALL have there skeletons and 
    to hold a mans past against him (especially if he treats you right and 
    is willing to do what it takes to make you realize it).
    
    Enough of that... now some more history.  My eldest sister married a
    man whom not only did my parents not like... but I as well dispised
    him.  ( I felt I knew more about him as I had grown up and gone to
    school with the guy and considered him a class one jerk).  After they 
    were married my parents eventually came to accept him, but I refused to 
    have anything to do with him.  One day he made a special trip to see me 
    just him, no one else.  He asked me why I hated him so much... I told
    him.  He thought about it and told me his point on those things and I 
    learned that he considered me to be as big a jerk as I had considered 
    him.  He pointed out that he loved my sister and took good care of her,
    had never hurt her and done his best to do right by her finacially.
    Eventually I came to accet him as well.  Now we all get along.  The 
    point is that if your parents really love you and it comes down to 
    having to accept him along with you or not having you in there lives,
    they will accept him and eventually get to know him and if he is worthy
    of it and passes the "test" that parents seem to have for spouses/SO's
    They will accept him for what HE is not what his Past was.  Finally,
    if they are Catholic, then they are Christen and you may want to point 
    out that ALL christen religions seem to hold the word "forgiveness" in 
    high asteem... doesn't sound to me like they do.  
    
    So my advice.... make up your mind and do what you think is best... 
    we can all give you "The wisdom of the ages" on it but YOU have to make
    up your mind.  Consider it all too... financially as well as
    emotionally as well as the sacrifices you may have to make as well as 
    the sacrifices he seems to be willing to make for you.  Weigh them out 
    and project them into the future.... and see what happens... 
    
    But DON'T let his "baggage" be the focal point of your dicision.... 
    That would not only be a mistake but in my opinion it is just as much 
    the mark of a Biggot as my parents when they learned my first wife was 
    going to be Chinese.
    
    SKip