Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    There must be something in the water.  I have somewhat of the same
    problem.  The difference is I have not yet married him and hhis
    daughter is 11 1/2 months old and he sees her every day.
    
    I can't wait to see some of these responses.
    
    Janie

    re: .0
    It's time for the tack/sledge hammer routine.  Rap him in the (insert
    part of anatomy here) with a 1 oz. tack hammer.  Haul out the 5 lb.
    sledge hammer and say: "Next time, I'll crush 'em with this."  If there
    is a next time, do it.
    
    re: .1
    Walk!  ...away.
    There are fine men in this world, that don't play head games.  Grab
    one.

    There are several courses of action you may want to try. 
    
    First, if you really love this man, counseling may be in order to
    help you communicate more clearly.  From your note, it sounds as
    if there is a real communication breakdown.
    
    A second possibility is that you begin preparing to continue on
    alone.  If your relationship is not especially a good one and neither
    of you are willing to keep it together, a parting of the ways may
    be in order.  If, in fact, he does still want a relationship with
    this other woman that is more than friendship, you will probably
    be better off getting the pain of the situation over with and going
    on with your life.  The idea here is to minimize pain for both you
    and your children.
    
    A third possibility (if you want to call it that) is to simply leave
    things as they are and wait to see what happens.  The old saying,
    "This, too, shall pass," comes to mind here.  If this is the course
    of action you decide upon, be prepared for further insecurities
    and heartache before he comes to his senses (IF he comes to his
    senses).  
    
    Whatever you decide, I send best wishes and support.
    
    Kindest Regards,
    Barb

Ouch! That's a couple of tough problems that have come in your 
front door.  Your loyalty and understanding become you, but 
may be betraying you.

It might be useful to try a sort of verbal equation here:

  first side                    second side
--------------------------    --------------------------

husband not seen child         he SAYS he wants to be 
for 6 years                    on birth certificate?
              +
first mother ran off
              +
husband WROTE love letter      he SAYS to get reaction from you 
              +                           +
husband TALKED on phone        he SAYS he does not care for her
 daily, laughing 
 and giggling
              +                           +
husband SENDS first            (your kids need it)
 mother your money
==========================     ================================
TIME, LETTERS, MONEY           words

>   I don't believe him about the love letters 
>   and the  excuse he gave me.  

Good. And I think your word 'excuse' is too kind to him.

>  I am trying to be as supportive as I can

Unless you have a religous conviction that requires that 
you sacrifice yourself and your children, you don't have to.

> just want to know some opinions on what I should do
> about the situation. 

Two things.  First, have your paycheck deposited in a bank.
Use your assets for you and the kids. Period.

Second, find a councelor of some sort and give yourself
enough time to talk over the situation.  From your note,
you are an extemely kind and understanding person, but 
I think things have gotten a bit extreme here. You
deserve more, and I hope you get it.

The best of luck to you and your children.   Meigs

    
    
    
    
    If the man does not have the common courtesy to stop the things
    he is doing for this other woman in order to save his marriage,
    then you can do better....much better.
    
    	Lay the cards on the table and let him know that if this doesn't
    cease right now, then you are leaving. If it doesn't stop, leave.
    Sounds like you're supporting his girlfriend to me....
    
    
    
    best wishes
    
    
    jim s.

    Dear Anonymous:
    
    	I commend your courage in facing this problem and sharing it with
    us. Moreover, you have given your husband loyalty and integrity, which
    seems a lot more than he's given you. I know how you feel. But it seems
    to me that you giving 90+ % to the relationship and he's taking 90+ %.
    Sadly, I recommend confronting him with a choice of staying with you or
    leaving with his girlfriend and daughter that he longs for so much. 
    
    	The comments in .4 are well taken. If he writes to her that he
    loves her and tells you that he doen't mean it, then what are you to
    think when (and if) he has said he loves you? I believe that there are
    people of both genders who tell the truth and people who don't. A lie
    may not be a big thing to many folks but I know of no culture or
    civilization that believed it's OK to be dishonest. 
    
    	I really hope that all of these replies give you the insight
    you're seeking, and remember you're not alone.
    
    							Spuds

Whilst I agree that he seems to be paying mind games, and it is wrong for him
to send her YOUR money - isn't he legally obliged to send some money cos he's
the father?

I recommend you go to counselling together... but I think if you are to stay
together you will have to get used to him seeing his daughter and to him paying
towards her upkeep.  What you don't have to put up with his his deceit and
infidelity.



Xtine

    I hate to say this to you, but there are many many nice men out there
    that dont play mind games, you dont need that bull.  It is time to get
    off the merry-go-round of torment and heartache and grab the brass ring
    (find someone nice that will treat you like a queen).  
    
    
    good luck
    
    Lynne

    Maybe this is oversimplifying things a bit, but I say get rid of
    the jerk. There is no need to lie in ANY relationship. As for him
    sending her YOUR money..to me, that is the same concept as stealing.
    He also sends her a note saying he loves her to get a reaction from
    YOU? How was he so sure you would even find the letter? Also, how
    can it mean anything after that when he tells YOU he loves YOU?
    I think it is hard to face reality when it comes to someone you
    love and often times you will believe any excuse offered just to
    hold on to what you THINK you have. But life is too short to waste
    it on someone who does not respect or appreciate you and from what
    you have written, this guy doesn't hold either for you.
    
    Dump the louse.

    It's the old saying, "Actions speak louder than words", and this is a
    sorry situation but to step back and look at it objectively, continuing
    this lifestyle will only continue the misery.  And to leave it might
    hurt, but later you might find a weight lifted and find yourself
    amongst good, honest people who can appreciate you.  Sometimes someone
    continues this deceit because they can't face up to their friends and
    family the truth of their actions.  It sounds like he never got over
    her after she left him and he cannot be honorable to his new family. 
    It is very hurtful, I'm sure.  Just remember, it's not you.  It's his
    own problems that have caused this.  Let us know what happens.

    
    You found a letter he had written to her.  Did he send it to her?
    Did you just stumble across it or was an involved search required.
    
    The reason I say this is that it appears that you have been doing
    some investigative work.  This alone should send a signal to you
    that this relationship is not worth the effort.  If you do not
    trust him then leave.
    
    It may be hard, but you must put your two children and yourself
    before him.  
    
    He is lying to you.  You know he is.  He is stealing from you.
    You know he is.  Do you think you are going to change him?
    You are not.  The quicker you realize and accept that the easier
    your road will be.  
    
    Are the two children you speak of your's and his?  If they are
    then he has a legal obligation to these children as well as
    the other child.  
    
    This guy is treating you like dirt and you are allowing him
    to do it.  If you continue in this relationship as it is
    today you are only going to let him take you down.  He is using
    you plain and simple.  It may not be nice to hear, but that is
    what it appears to be from your note.    
    
    
    I would cut off all access to your money.  If it is in a joint
    account, then close the account and open one in your own name.
    Have your checks direct deposited.  Protect yourself and
    your children.  
    
    
    

re: .8

>    that dont play mind games, you dont need that bull.  It is time to get
>    off the merry-go-round of torment and heartache and grab the brass ring
>    (find someone nice that will treat you like a queen).  

    uh, Lynne... I agree with what you were trying to say, but your 
    metaphor has serious problems:  getting the brass ring on a 
    merry-go-round entitles the bearer to a free ride on the same 
    merry-go-round.

    This is from the author of the base note.
                                                
*******************************************************************************

    Hello Again. Thank you for the replies.  I would like to answer the
    questions people are asking me.   
    
    Answer to .7  He is not "legally" obligated (I don't think) because his
    name is not on the birth certificate. 
    
    Answer to .11  I was cleaning my house and found a letter underneath my
    couch. I looked in his brief case (I knew if he wrote any more, he
    would put it in there) and found another letter. They were both
    romantic letters.  It was in an envelope that had her name on it and
    his return address.  I don't think he had her address and was waiting
    for her to call to get the address.  I don't know if he had sent any
    letters.  He SAYS he didn't.  And yes the two children I speak of his
    OURS.  The two boys I have are his.  

    We do have a communication problem.  I cannot seem to talk to him and
    when I do he acts like he could care less. He's going to do whatever he
    wants too. 

    If anyone has anymore responses, it would be appreciated.

    Thanks.

    p.s.   My husband said he knew I would find the letters eventually.  He
    didn't know when, but eventually I would find them.  I RARELY go in his
    brief case so I wonder why he would of put it in there, IF HE WAS
    TELLING THE TRUTH... I DOUBT IT THOUGH..

    He said he wrote two of them because he made a mistake on the one I
    found underneath the couch.  I really wanted me to find the one in his
    brief case.

    1)
    Maybe he is not legally obligated, but I would hope that he felt some
    moral obligation to his ex's child, as well as the two that you share.
    
    2)
    Quite honestly, I think that you should leave.  But leaving is rarely 
    the easiest thing to do.  You face much pain no matter what road you 
    take.  I would guess that you already know what you have to do,
    and although we can try to help with our words, what you really 
    need to do is find the strength within yourself to do whatever you 
    think is right, regardless of what that entails, i.e., counselling, 
    leaving, etc. 
    
     3) re: the love letters.  I don't understand the mentality of hurting
    a partner with love letters to someone else.  What does your husband
    hope to accomplish by destroying the trust and faith you have in him? 
    Is he trying to end your marriage so that he'll be free to live with
    this other woman when she is finally divorced?  Or is this the only
    way he can communicate to you that he (I don't know) needs more
    attention from you?  Is he extremely insecure?
    
    If your gut feeling tells you that he is lying about his reasons for
    the love letters, I'd go with that feeling.  You're more than likely
    right.
    
    4) Re: his daughter.  All I have to say about this subject is that, in
    my own humble opinion, I honestly don't believe that this man cares
    about that child.  If he did, all involved parties (including his ex's
    husband) would know that he is the father to this child.  He would also
    have seen this child many more times than once!!!  He might be sending
    money, but my guess is that he is trying to manipulate this woman into
    another relationship or she is manipulating him with guilt or their
    past relationship.
    
    
    All in all, a very bad situation.  I'm sorry if I've read too much into
    this situation or if I've been too abrupt, but sometimes reality can be
    extremely harsh.
    
    What you have to do is think about yourself and your children.  You sound
    like a wonderful person who has dealt with a lot of crap from your
    husband.  He seems unwilling (or unable) to give you the love and honesty
    that any spouse deserves.  YOU DESERVE to be treated better than this!
    And even if you don't feel that you deserve better, think about your
    children.  This man is obviously not a great role model for two boys!
    
    My advice: Get out, get counseling, and get on with your life.  I'm
    sure it'll hurt like hell, but in a few years from now you'll be a
    totally different person with a new life that will bring you joy
    instead of anxiety and pain.
    
    God bless you and your children,
    Shirley
    
                                      

Personally, I don't believe your husband when he says he wanted you to see
the letters.  That sounds entirely phony to me, and would cause me to
suspect anything else he says.  Refer to the "actions and words" comments
for more insight.

				Steve

>p.s.   My husband said he knew I would find the letters eventually.  He
>didn't know when, but eventually I would find them.  I RARELY go in his
>brief case so I wonder why he would of put it in there, IF HE WAS
>TELLING THE TRUTH... I DOUBT IT THOUGH..

>He said he wrote two of them because he made a mistake on the one I
>found underneath the couch.  I really wanted me to find the one in his
>brief case.

    Several (lotsa severals) years ago, my oldest son (age 13) wanted to
    find out if his mother was "snooping" in his room, so he 'planted' a
    very nasty, vulgar, obscene, graphically explicit letter in the most
    secretive hidden part of his room, but addressed  to  her,  accusing
    her  of  being  a  snoop,  amongst  other  "graphicaly explicit  bad
    things".
    
    His  mother  showed it to me at the dinner table, and wanted  me  to
    punish him severely.
    
    Talk about rocks and  hard  places.   This is where you now are.  To
    find a letter by accident  is  one  thing,  but  to search all other
    places implies (proves ?) distrust, and "proves it" once and for all
    !!
    
    I think this clearly shows the communication problem.
    
    You were tested by this immature being, and you "failed" the test.
    
    >Name on birth certificate ?
    
    I'm not sure, but I don't believe his legal obligation is determined
    by the name on the birth certificate, but rather who says he  is the
    father.    Laws  vary, and I'm no lawyer.  If the child ever becomes
    dependent on  welfare,  and the courts believe that he is the father
    (for any reason), things can change very fast !!
    
    
    

    This man is full of BS.  I know, because I've been there, a couple of
    times ...  I can only imagine the pain you are experiencing now.
    
    I would strongly suggest contacting the EAP people in your area and
    beginning counseling.  It will help you put things into perspective.  
    Can you depend on your family for support (not finanical, but perhaps
    they might let you stay with them for a while until you get on your
    feet)?  
    
    I know marriage is supposed to be for a lifetime, and it makes me sad
    to, IMHO, suggest you should leave your husband, but it seems like he
    is dishonest, immature, self-centered and hurting you and your
    children.  You and your kids don't deserve that.
    
    Best of luck to you.
    
    Hugs,   Tammi

    RE .16
    
    In order for "him" to be financially responsible for the child,
    he either has to acknowledge paternity or be ajudicated the 
    father of the child.  Now, given that he has been claiming
    paternity for 6 or so years, even if he doesn't formally
    acknowledge by signing the birth certificate or whatever, he'd
    have a hell of a time defending a paternity suit.  And, you're
    right, if the mother files for AFDC or any kind of welfare benefits,
    DSS will happily take care of having paternity established and getting
    a court order for support.
    
    I wonder if this guy isn't using the daughter and her mother to
    manipulate his current wife.  My ex-husband used to use his first
    wife and children in a similar way to explain to me how lucky I was
    to have him and that if I wanted him to stay, I'd better behave the
    he wanted me to.  Never said it explicitly but that was the message.
    
    In fact, this guy's behavior reminds a great deal of my ex.
    particularly the lying and sneaking behind his wife's back.  I strongly
    agree with the recommendation that the basenoter go to EAP and get some
    counseling.  I think that it will position her to go on, whatever
    choice she makes.
    
    Polly 

    Don't have time to read all the replies, but I personally believe that
    enough is enough. Give a warning, separate your money from his, and if
    he doesn't heed the warning, then he may very well not be worth
    staying with.
    
    Easier said than done, I realize.......
    
    ....Bob