Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    "Why do men marry the women they marry?"
    
    This question has many answers. Very akin to "Why are A & B friends"
    Many times the choice is not free will. That is to say, someone works
    very hard to persuade their partner to marry. Very few marriages or
    friendships are truly equal; one usually leads and the other follows.
    In fact it may be that this process is not a selection or choice but
    really an agreement and compromise. Success depends on the maturity
    level of the participants and not the perfection of the match. As time
    goes on and each person changes, often away from the qualities that
    brought them together, only mature acceptance of the new situation can 
    maintain the marriage.
    
    Initially, of course, something brings the two together such as
    physical attractiveness, a smile, or a golden heart. Unfortunately,
    most men I know focus big time on the physical. When it's the man's own
    free choice on a marriage choice, I think that, for the most part, it's
    love for her and its (love's) ultimate proof through committment.
    
    How do they choose THAT particular woman?
    
    As I mentioned above, she may have chosen him first. But if its him
    that's choosing then certainly opportunity or any of a number of other
    things may have driven him to initiate a date. But the *choice* of 
    *that* particular woman with whom to make a committment is a different,
    more complicated process. But I would say that the other women in the
    man's life, e.g mother, sisters, friends, lovers give him a unique
    experience and "model" of a woman. If he has had good experiences, he
    might be looking for similar traits. If he has suffered he might want
    opposite traits. I've seen both men and women, however, that never
    learn. and are intensely attracted to people with traits that harm
    them. 
    
    As with women, some men can't get beyond the nice cover of book to see
    if there's integrity, courage, honesty, and love inside. The downside
    of choices for marriage made on superficial, fleeting things like
    looks, hair, height, physical strength is that these fade like the
    cover of the book. A wheelchair reduces six foot height a lot, but
    integrity never diminishes. But sad to say, some make choices this way.
    
    What characteristics of a woman causes a man to decide to tie the knot?
    
    Most people take an action to make someting better than before. There
    are many characteristics of a woman that causes a given man to love
    that woman, but I would have to say that when they add up to him being
    happier with her than other women he has known, his "models", he starts
    thinking about the future and committment. The desire for children can 
    be a strong motivator as well. Loneliness often strengthens the
    resolve to find a mate and make a committment. It's a funny thing
    though. A slow process. You don't decide overnight. It sort of grows on
    you until when you think you've decided it's really not such a big
    decision. 
    
    PS:	How would a woman answer the questions you poised for her
    selection?
    
    						Life's not easy
    
    							Spuds 

    Only one reason shoule be there...
    
    LOVE!
    
    Nothing else will make a lifetime commitment a joy, not a burden.
    
    (unfortunately, that cannot be "choosen" and not many people are 
     lucky enough to experience...)
    

Re: .3

There's more to it than that, Mike.  You must love her enough to be able to
withstand the times when you will hate her, and enough to be willing to
put in the work that is necessary to keep a relationship alive for decades.

You can believe all you want that marriage will last forever, but only you
(and your partner) can MAKE it happen.

				Steve

    Once, during an argument, I asked my ex-husband why he ever married me
    in the first place.  I always remembered his answer because it sort of
    caught me by surprise, I guess.  He said, "Because you were the only
    woman I ever dated that I didn't think I would get sick of!"
    
    Well, we are divorced now, but we were married for 12 1/2 yrs., and the
    first 7 were quite happy, and these days that's not too bad.  Although,
    it's certainly not the same as forever.
    
    Lorna
    

    	Why and who to get married to is kind of a difficult question to 
    answer but here it goes.
    
    	When you first enter the dating game you look for someone who has
    the LOOKS that make your friends head turn.  Next step is to find
    someone who is EASY and doesn't think to much.  I know both of these
    reasons sound terrible but looking back that is what happened.
    
    	The next part is the hardest now that you have done all the dumb
    and clumsy dating it is time to make real tough choosing.
    	I looked for someone who I thought would be there when I needed her
    and would help us work through tough times together.  Next I looked for
    someone who shared some of my interests and I shared some of hers.  She
    needed to understand my hang-ups, which were many at that time of my
    life.  She didn't have to be a raving beauty, the best in bed, or the
    smartest woman who walked the earth, because she would be marrying
    someone who was average in all of these.  She had to be open and would
    work any problems that may come.  Wanted to be a team member and a 
    indivdual with her own ideas at the sametime.
    
    	I guess WE made the right choice because we are going into our 18th
    year of marriage and I have seen our love grow year after year.  I am
    not saying everything has been peaches and cream all the time but, we
    worked at our marriage.  There have been sad times and good times but
    it is nice to know that someone is there to count on through both.
    
    	I don't know if i answered your questions through my ramblings but
    I tried.
    
    	Ken

    There is something about the gal he chooses that just "clicks"...it is
    a special something, and the guy knows it when he feels it.  You are
    right 1073.2, it is LOVE!!
    
    
    Lynne

    I agree, starting out as friends give you a better foundation from
    which to start.  I have known my present wife longer than I knew
    my first wife and we were married for 8 years.  My wife and I have
    been friends for over 17 years and we just got married two weeks
    ago. 

    I agree with the last noter, you should be friends first. One can fall
    in and out of love, but it seems when you're friends the feeling is 
    more "like" than love. Sometimes I think I like my wife more than I
    love her but, in either case I know I wouldn't want to be without her.
    
    Tony (first time replier)

    I think the answer is going to be as different as the people who
    respond... Friendship is important, but there are a lot of marriages
    out there that don't have any friendship involved and still survive.
    I personally would prefer the friendship.  I was raised to believe
    the old saying "Looks don't last, but cookin' do".  Not exactly
    word for word, but in the thought that marriage should NOT be based
    on such things as sexual attraction (only or as a Major factor)
    or features.  I've learned to fall in love with qualities that are
    more realistic and will last throughout a lifetime and ultimatley
    that purpose of marriage is to spend the rest of your life with
    the same person.  
    
    Some of the qualities I look for is an ability to express themselves
    openly, the ability to understand what I am saying or explaining
    without taking offense if it is critical... the ability to express
    criticism without insulting.  Trust is a very big issue with me
    and learning to adjust to each others "quarky ways" is important...
    There are a large amount of things I look for now... I don't expect
    perfection but will not compromise what I expect to have.  I did
    that once and ended up divorced, I'll not make that mistake again
    believeing I can "overlook" something or let it ride.
    
    Skip

    There was an interesting articale in UK Cosmopolitan this month
    which looked at this issue... the main conclusion seemed to be that
    men don't decide really WHO to marry.. they more often make a decision
    WHEN to marry...
    
    IE.  They get to a certain age, decide to settle down and then look
    around for someone to marry...
    
    
    Xtine

    re: .12
    
    >>IE.  They get to a certain age, decide to settle down and then look
    >>around for someone to marry...
    
    Funny, that's exactly the way my parents met.  He came to the States,
    then a few years later wrote back to Italy saying that he was looking to
    meet a nice girl and settle down.  My mother's cousin sent a picture of
    my mom to my dad, they met, fell in love, got married.  All in the process
    of about 3 months.
    
    It's still early for me to think about settling down, but I sort of
    suspect that it will "just happen".  Someday I'll just wake up one
    morning married with two kids.  ;-)   
    
       - Larry

    Hmmm... there's one reason that I'm surprised nobody's brought
    up yet:  if you're the type of guy who regularly "strikes out"
    with women (for whatever reason), then you might be inclined
    to marry the first recognizably female creature that says "yes"
    just to lock in the relationship!
    
    I have some experience with this, both directly and vicariously.
    When I was in high school and college, I was your typical unwashed
    computer geek:  all book-smarts, no social skills, NO luck with
    women, and an abysmal self-image to boot.  On those rare occasions
    when I'd get myself a date or a relationship, I'd always have the
    nagging feeling that I'd somehow "tricked" her into liking me; that
    once the real "me" showed through she'd run away screaming like all
    the rest of the girls 8-) 8-( .  As a result, my interactions
    with my dates/steadies were always strained and a bit stilted; I
    was CONSTANTLY checking and rechecking myself, constantly searching
    for the "right thing" to say, always afraid that one slip and I'd
    be dating my right hand for the next year.  Not surprisingly, such
    relationships turned out to be self-fulfilling prophecies; my
    discomfort was pretty obvious, and my SOs would generally leave
    after not-too-long looking for more comfortable situations.
    
    During this time period, I constantly longed for some sign that
    the woman would accept a marriage proposal... after all, once
    she was locked in to a relationship with me, I could really be
    myself again and she couldn't do a damned thing about it (well,
    she could, but divorce is always a messy thing... and who knows,
    she might even grow to LIKE this miserable little wretch...)
    
    Like I said; self-image problems galore.
    
    I was lucky, though.  Right after college I met and moved in with
    a really wonderful woman (who's now my wife).  She's a couple of
    years older than me, and she's been around the block a few more
    times.  Needless to say, when the relationship started looking
    really serious, I started making my typical marrige noises... and
    she'd keep saying "Not yet... I don't know why, but it doesn't
    feel right".  Gradually, as it became apparent that she wasn't
    the type to want out of a relationship at the first sign of trouble,
    I loosened up and started letting more and more of "me" show.  We
    got to be more and more comfortable with each other, and my
    self-image started improving dramatically.  Then, one day (my
    birthday), after my not having even THOUGHT about marriage for
    months, she proposed to me!  (Well... we still tussle about this
    one; she says she proposed, I maintain that she just accepted my
    earlier proposals... but in the grand scheme of things that's
    just noise).
    
    My brother, on the other hand, wasn't so lucky.  Like me, his
    luck with women has been less than stellar.  Unlike me, he had
    actually proposed to several women and had been turned down,
    so when one woman actually said yes he jumped at the chance.
    She was a single mother, and I think my brother entertained
    "rescue fantasies" (i.e. I'll be the knight in shining armor
    to take her out of her miserable life situation and make her
    a nice life and for that she'll be eternally grateful and love
    me forever).  Unfortunately, they are a really poor match,
    they had a second kid who turned out to be an even worse holy
    terror than the first, and now he's turned to workaholism to
    keep him out of the house as much as possible...
    
    

    Some of the reasons that have not been mentioned were that some men and
    women find what ever charateristics of their parrent in the other. Like
    women look for things that remind them of their father in the SO, and
    men find that of his mom for his SO. I found these charaters to be that
    of me with my soon to be ex wife. Her dad lifted weights, was into the
    woods and country, was educated with a undergrad degree. I found
    charaters of my mom, in her. Like being of sound mind, at the time,
    said what she ment, as in walk the walk and talk the talk. 
    
    Some women find men as an excape into another home enviorment. As in
    woman lives at home with parrents. This was alot more common years ago.
    And she would marry a man to move out of the house of parrents. Same
    for the man too. Bad excuse. But it happened. I find that men do look
    at women for the wrappings before the hart value. Also a way into
    trouble. But it keeps lawyers fat and happy with devorces. 
    
    Still women allow men to chase them till they want to get caught. As
    old as time itself. This is the over rider of them all. It seems that
    a woman will send out the signals of distress and helpless ness. And
    depending upon who is answering these signals will catch the right or
    wrong man. I guess were not as smart as women in this reguards. Execpt
    when we want them to pay attention to us we do stupid things like drive
    too fast, drink too much... I don't understand it all either. But I
    watch. 
    
    I think the most infulential line that I have read was from a book
    called "Letting Go", by Phil Roth. The passage goes on something like:
    
    "There is a terrible struggle that goes on in the harts of men and
    women, where pitty is mistaken for love". I think that this is another
    line that both parties use on each other to get each other. I think
    this probably the most popular one that each other uses the most. We
    feel sorry for this woman who cannot fix her car, this man for he
    cannot cook for shi*. This woman for she does this and he does that.
    And we find each other in this senerio that is enhanced when we make
    love too. For there is this small island of excape, excape from the day
    to day problems, there is this life-raft in the sea of trouble. And 
    this helps us even more. More than the biological need of just taking
    care of our ugly parts or lusting. Our emotions over ride it.
    
    I think that, yes, you have to be a good friend, before your lovers and
    married. But I feel that if you believe what that this is the bottom
    line of friend first, your fooling yourself. Look at your SO, what do
    you really have in common? If you were photo perfect match you would be
    dull to death. Opps attract. Friends first? Or is it pitty me first for
    this is the mating ritual of the 20th century. Unlike the others where
    we have freedom of choice, pehaps we have too much choise and when
    things don't work out we walk out, instead of making them work like out
    parents. That is if you come from the more traditional family..
    
    Well I think I have rambled on alot more than I should have. There are
    other mating rituals that we preform. Besides this one what is the most
    common? Of course the prom.

    An interesting article pertaining to this subject of marrying for
    love or "WHY?"
    
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
from: Body, Mind and Spirit
by Judith Sherven, PH.D and James Sniechowski



XXX 00000                                                       XXXXX 0000

			Loving through the Heart


	"Love thy neighbor as thyself" and "Love thine enemy" are two 
injunctions that confound us with the spiritual necessity  of loving those who
are different from us, Globally, we are faced with this necessity as an 
imperative against nuclear annihilation.  Personally, we are faced with this 
necessity as a means of achieving harmony with our brethren.   And sadly, it
is often those closest to us, our marriage partners, with whose differences
we seem to have the most difficulty.

	We often experience  this difficulty as a painful and confusing polarity
On the one hand, we feel our heart's desire to fully embrace the one we love.
Willingly, the heart opens to welcome the lover without judgment, innocent, and
filled with good will.  At the same time, we know the need to be made secure,
to be assured of our value.  We require that our mates love us in only the ways
that will fulfill our conscious or unconscious expectations.   Any other way is
unacceptable.

	The confusion is compounded by a cultural barrage that insists marriage
be a hot, sizzling romantic love affair - a passionate whirlwind that sweeps us
away.  Yet the same culture praises detached independence as a primary virtue.

	Joseph Campbell has said, "When people get married because  they think
it's a long-time love affair, they'll be divorced very soon, because all love
affairs end in disappointment.  Marriage is the recognition of spiritual 
identity.  By marrying the right person, we construct the image of the incar-
nate God, and that's what marriage is."

	But, in our daily lives, we are distracted by conflicting demands.
The noise of the world pulls us one way and the yearning of our heart pulls in
an opposite direction.  We become fragmented and our souls suffer. What are we 
to do?  How are we to connect with the right person?

	We find a 'right' mate through the heart -- through a surrender beyond
will or expectation.

	Too often we encounter disappointment in our relationships by willfully
determining what we must have from another.  NO one, other than the person who
fits  our preconceived expectations, will even be considered.  By so doing, we
limit our possibilities and then righteously defend our limits.  But this is
not the heart's way.

	In order for a true relationship to occur, we must be able to disting-
uish between ourselves and our lover.  Carl Jung states that " a relationship
can only take place where the ability to make such distinction exits."

	The heart's desire is to lead to a union of differences, a union in 
which both lovers are able to feel and know themselves as defined individuals,
and are committed to making themselves available to one another emotionally,
intellectually, sexually, and spiritually.   Through the exchange of self we
experience intimacy.  We are intimate with another only, when we are willing 
to make ourselves present and vulnerable.  In other words, intimacy takes two.

	Many of us balk at this notion of the union of differences.  We com-
plain that such a relationship is too hard, too much work.  We imagine that 
once we meet the right mate, our difficulties will be over and we will "live
happily ever after."  This fairy tale myth is so deeply ingrained in our cult-
ture that all too often, when the differences between lovers, married or not,
becomes troublesome, the relationship is determined to be over. There is no
spiritual context to contain and support us through the troubled time.

	Life, however, is a soul school, and marriage is one of its toughest
classes.  Like any tough class, marriage stretches, us and requires that we
bring the best we have to make it work.  Marriage requires heart.  Marriage
requires understanding.  The fact that differences exist is simply one of the
lessons to be embraced.

	In order to be successful in marriage, we must acknowledge our mate's
right to exist with attitudes, beliefs, and behaviors different from our own.
Rather than wrong, stupid or ridiculous, we must learn to see our spouse as 
a singular, unalike, and personal, while, simultaneously, being just as 
meritorious and valuable as we are.

	Once we move beyond our need to be secure, our need to be right, we 
can surrender to the nature of marriage.  We surrender not to our partner.  
That would mean giving up our own identity, and thereby negating the possibil-
ity of intimacy.  We surrender, rather, to the relationship -- in which each
member is recognized as distinct, honored as valuable, and celebrated as 
unique.  If we do so the sacred union shall live in " the image of the incarnate
God."

	Finally, as we go into the world looking for a mate, the process of 
dating should be considered practice -- that is, a process through which we
present our authenticity to another and note how we are received.  Dating is
then not so much aimed at searching for someone to fulfill our expectations, but
rather, becomes a way to enlarge our capacity to accept the differences between
self and other.

	As we are able to be honest about who we are, rather than hiding and
trying to please "them" we become increasingly able to accept the truth about
others.  That does not mean we choose someone with whom we are not compatible.
It means that, when we openly make ourselves present and available, we can 
receive and be received by someone with whom our heart will sing.  And then we
will know -- this is the right one.