Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    You've got bigger problems than the key. I'd suggest you and your
    boyfriend start talking. liesl

    I agree with liesl.... you've got a major trust problem here...not
    to mention an apparent lie... did he in fact return the key at all?
    Not to mention his week needs for it in the first place.  And your
    statement that he seems to need to have some control in her life...
    I'm divorced with a 5 year old son.  Once a month my echs and I
    set down for about an hour... discuss issues that arise between
    us as far as our son goes, then go our seperate ways. I don't
    ask/interfer in her life... she doesn't with mine.  The only thing
    we now have in common is our son.  And if it weren't for him we'd
    both disapper from each others lives and be just as happy. 
    
    Skip

    I agree with liesl and Skip in substance, but I have no advice to give
    other than perhaps suggesting you to see a councelor (of the type
    of specialty not yet known to me, but surely to exist).  However, I 
    WOULD like to compliment your writing.  By concentrating on the 
    seemingly trivial issue of a key, you succeeded in conveying the
    problem in its entirety, and almost gave the issue a philosophical
    depth :-).  You succeeded in one short paragraph what so many others 
    did not with pages after pages of whining and boring discourses (sorry
    about this last cheap shot).
    
    Eugene

    
    	The other woman has stated outright that she still loves
    	your fiance.  She is arranging meetings and he is complying.
    	(Perhaps *he's* arranging meetings.)  The stories he tells
    	don't have a ring of authenticity or honesty about them.
    
    	In any event, it appears that he is not completely over
    	the relationship and the baby is being used by someone as
    	a pawn.
    
    	You have the right to ask him to cease his visits or to
    	request specific guidelines around them.  Counselling is
    	definitely recommended.
    
    	Try to be objective, but watch out for yourself.  You may
    	be in for a rocky time.
    
    ralph

    Before I got married to the soon to be X, I was engaged to some lovely
    woman from central america. Well to shorted the story, the engagement
    dropped off for alot of lame excuses and I met another woman who moved
    into my home. There were many personal belonging that belonged to this
    latin lady. Like clothing, under type stuff. I wanted to return it and
    got alot of flack from my SO. She felt the same way that I would be
    walking back  into the latin womans arms. So, SO trashed all these
    belongings. Took them into the back yard and set them on fire. Great!
    What a way to really burry the past! At first I thought that the SO was
    alittle off center with this act. But then I realized that there was 
    a cutting of the emotional cord from the past that needed to be done if
    I wanted to go on with a health relationship. Which did go on! So,
    either have a moment of silence and flush the key down the johnny or 
    tie it to a ballon and set it free to the sky with your boyfriend.
    
    George
    ps I use to get calls from the latin lady in the middle of the night
    shortly after this other woman moved into my home and there were a few
    great words exchanged between these two woman that are not worth
    repeating on the tube.

    Re .5: Sheesh - you couldn't have just mailed her the stuff? (And I
    trust you kept your fire insurance paid up after that!)
    
    -b

    Yes, there was an increase in the policy taken out in my behalf.:->
    Why waist the post stamp? Why waist any more time with a dead subject?
    Why encure more emotional pain that was unnessary? If you go around
    leaving your stuff behind at someones place that is not a big
    investment like a pair of what evers, and much time has past and the
    old relationship is dead, and she hasn't made the effort to call you,
    why the hell not! It was alot of fun! Tie that key to some ballons and 
    set it free in the air! You will break off that relationship in the
    best manner possible without anymore brow beating! Why bother with
    something that has made your life a mess, and they refuse to reconcile.
    When the D word is done with me, I plan on doing something of that
    nature. Rent a limo, to take me from the court house to home. Something
    good that will say, page is turned.

    Is the real issue him seeing the woman, the baby, or having the key?
    Your note sounds like he spends some time with the baby.
    
    If he was really interested in her, then why would he have broken up
    with her (if she still loves him it must have been his choice?)? 
    
    I agree he shouldn't lie about returning the key, but is it possible
    there are legitimate reasons for having it?  Maybe he thinks there's no
    harm in it, is a convenience to him, and sees that it disturbs you so
    he said he'd return it.  Sometimes people make promises in an attempt
    to please or appease someone, but don't really want to follow through,
    and then don't.
    
    Why would he want to have control over her?  I don't really want an
    answer, but it makes me wonder what's going on. 
    
    Is it okay with you that he spends time with the child?  If he takes
    responsibility for the baby, and spends some time with it, then why
    *shouldn't* he have a key? 
                              

    >> Then why shouldn't he have a key.
    
    I dunno about you, but I consider it more then a convieniance to
    be able to walk into someone's home anytime I please.  If she is
    inepdt at giving him the things he needs to take care of the child,
    then he should be checking the things first.  I've NEVER needed
    to return to my ex's home for things.  I have a mental check list
    of all the I need when I pick  up my son and check the items before
    leaving.  
    
    IF he is finished with the relationship then the need for a key
    is silly.  There just plain IS no excuse for keeping it unless something
    is going on.  The relationship is over... therefore the need to
    be inside her place is over.  The only link between them now is
    the child.  And I'm sorry but you can't convince me that he should
    have access to her apartment in order to take proper care of the
    child.  It just doesn't work.  What does he need?  Diapers?  Go
    buy a case of huggies... formula?  Go buy it at the store.  Food?
    Go buy it at the store... Clothing?  I've already said it once...
    There is NOTHING in the apartment he needs access to.  If he doesn't
    carry the child on his insurance then she should give him the necessary
    numbers and copies of the paperwork for the childs health insurance.
    
    So the key is something silly.  Besides... this is more of a trust
    issue to me...
    
    Skip
    
    

    ��May I �point out here that this woman is more than�just
    your boy�friend's ex�.��.
    
    They are joint parents of a child and it is his kid as much�as
    it is hers. I think he is very�much to  be commended for being
    a full time father to his child. �If you and he had a baby and
    then broke up wouldn't yant him to be fully involved with your
    and his baby?
    
    kids are funny, they�grow attached to things like blankets
    and teddy bears and such like than they can't sleep without
    and cry for if they don't have them.
    I think it is quite reasonable to have a key to go back and
    get �'baby' stuff.
    
    �May I also point out, that for a man who is involved �with his
    child there is going to be some tie to the mother of that child.
    The more that you are supportive of his emotional ties to the
    child and his subconscious ones to the mother, rather than regarding
    them as enemies, the more successful you will be in the realtionship.
    
    If you can freely give him the 'gift' of visiting *his* child
    and the child's mother, without jealousy, setting him free to
    enjoy being a father, the more secure your relationship will be.
    
    I feel like you want to 'own' him and have him cut off all
    ties to the past..
    
    �I think you should regard you self as fortunate to have a boyfriend��
    who won't walk away from past loves and committements just because
    they are no longer a couple, especially since they share a child.
    What kind of�relationship would you like to�have with him if and
    when�the two of you break up?��
    
    ��Bonnie

    re .10
    
    Nothing in the basenote divulges who the father is.  ("My fiance was
    involved with another woman before he met me.  He found out later that
    she was pregnant.")
    
    If the man is indeed the baby's father, I think it's commendable that
    he is spending time with her.  On the other hand, if he is now engaged
    to another woman, it appears that there are several areas that need to
    be clarified and resolved.
    
    Judi
    

    This relationship was under somewhat longer discussion in another
    notesfile (before the key became an issue), which made it clear that
    the fiance was the father.  It's sometimes hard to keep track what info
    comes from which file, and thus is shared by a given set of noters.
    
    		- Bruce

    
    I like to Russian adage : "Trust but verify" and I think that applies
    very well here.  It could, maybe, posasibly be that your fiance has the
    key to facilitate him seeing his child.  However, it could also be that
    he felt purely physically towards his ex and it continuing that
    physical relationship.  There are many men out there who love one woman
    seemly devoltedly, yet sleep with another.  I don't mean to alarm you
    but I agree, that something is fishy.  From that woman's point of view, 
    if she's still in love with him and he has no interest, wouldn't she
    want advance warning about when he was coming over?  (So she could look
    her best, have the place clean, have the baby clean...)  If on the
    other hand, he has an interest then he would want to pop in unannounced
    so that he could verify and commitment that she has made to him.
    
    Also, what good is having a key when he has to make sure that she's
    there anyways?  The baby is probably not home if she's not home, right?
    Yes it is commendable that he wants to see his child and take an active
    part in raising it, but what good is a key?  The ONLY, legitimate
    reason for having a key, IMO, is if there were an emergency, he could
    get in.  But if there were a situation where the mother was hurt how
    would she call him anyways?  She'd probably call 911.
    
    I would be all wrong and I hope I am, but you are absolutely right,
    IMO, to wonder about the circumstances.
    
    Rachael
    

    
    
    I was in a similar type situation with my guy.  His ex stated she
    loved him, but she treated him like garbage and used the baby (who
    is now four and she continues to do so) as a pawn.  However, he
    simply stated to her that he wanted to be no more than a parent to
    his daughter.  Once he made it clear that there was to be no love
    relationship between she and he, she got angry.  Has been ever since.
    
    I was not aware of him having access to her apartment, and consequently
    the baby.  However, if he did I would also be upset.  It is a matter of
    trust.  But it seems as if the two of you are looking at the key from
    different angles.  If he truly has no need for the key, then he should
    return it.  If however he does have a need, then he should keep it.
    You both have to agree whether or not he needs it.
    
    From experience, this woman is going to use the child as a pawn for
    as long as she is allowed to get away with it.  Is he paying support?
    Does he have a visitation schedule?  Does she still have legal physical
    custody?  These are the issues you two need to work on.  I think it is
    great that he is a part of his daughters life.  But if he truly is
    serious about it, then get it legalized.  She may not even know that 
    you and he are engaged.  Have you thought of that?  
    
    I can remember much pain once I found out that he was telling her one
    story and telling me another story.  Sure it hurt and it took a long
    time to get our trust back, but look at where he is coming from.
    When someone is using their child as a pawn, and they are told that
    they can not see the child unless they see the mother/father it forces
    folks to do strange things.  She could possibly be threatening him
    by saying that he will never see the child again if he does not comply
    to her wishes.  Is it he who is trying to control her or is it she
    who is trying to control him?
    
    Try to put yourself in his shoes for a moment.  If you had a child by
    another man and you were in love with him but he was engaged to someone
    else, what would you do?  Love is blind!!!  Especially when there is
    a child involved.  
    
    My advice would be to have a talk with him and tell him what your
    concerns are now.  Also, it may be helpful (but painful) to talk
    to her and see the child.  He can not just walk away from his 
    responsibilities, and if you try to make him he will regret you for
    forcing the issue.  
    
    
    Are you feeling threatened by her and the baby?  That is a very real
    emotion.  Are you feeling jealous that he still spends time with her
    and the child?  You have to come to terms that this child is a part of
    both of them and nothing you can do will change that.  She is going to
    be a part of his life for as long as his daughter is.  Maybe you need
    to evaluate your feelings on the issue?
    
    Michele

    I WOULD RUN AWAY FROM HIM... he's got the right to his son and see for
    his welfare, future and all that that comes along with being a FATHER.
    Who wants to get involved with this type of person? You know what it
    could happen to you, just by seeing what he is doing at the present
    time?  Are you ready to go thru these problems? Of course only YOU know
    what is best for you and you are entitled to choose...
    Please think very carefully.  I wish you the best.  
    Ana
    

    re .10 and .15
    
    I agree with .10. He can't just drop out of sight because he has no
    relationship with the mother any more.
    
    .15, If she wants to remain with him, she has to be ready to accept
    that condition. Otherwise, just bail out. It's a simple choice, accept
    his situation, or leave. By simple I don't mean easy, but rather
    clear-cut.
    
    ....Bob