Conference quark::human_relations-v1

The answer is - whichever way you prefer is right for you.

If this note wants to get into a discussion of how such "trivialities"
affect relationships, then go for it.  If it's to be a "this way - no, this
way!" session, then no thanks...

				Steve

    According to Emily Post, if the T.P. roll has a print on it, the print
    should always face out, underside NEVER exposed.  I.E., that is
    unrolled from front. If roll is unprinted, plain white, then you are
    probably a cheap S.O.B and Emily would not give a damn what you do.

    Well, I'll see if I can re-direct it to "trivialities" affecting
    relationships...

    Toilet seats (404),and toilet paper going up/down/over/under and even
    how the top sheet is put on a bed (print on the top side or down side)
    represent the willingness to compromise.  If you can't compromise on
    the small trivial stuff, how in the heck are you going to be able to
    buy a house together, raise a child together, or {fill in the blank
    here}...

    If you really care about someone, you'll make an effort to do what
    pleases them...  if that means putting the seat down, rolling the toilet
    paper the way its not supposed to go [:-)], or making the bed a
    different way, then you do it...  if you don't care, you don't make the
    effort, and that should tell someone something right there...

    Just my 2c/ worth you see...

         ...and if they really care about you, they should not be bothering
    you with trivial matters.  If they do continue to do so, THAT should
    tell you something.
    
                                         GB

    
    When you stop and think about it, it *is* funny how trivial things can
    seem important at times.  Why does this happen?  
    
    I've always thought it a matter of what people are used to.  We all get
    into habits....toilet seats - up/down...the way in which toilet paper
    is rolled...squeezing the toothpaste tube....which way towels are
    folded....tools placed in tool boxes...socks folded or rolled...and so
    on.  I think we become comfortable with the way we do things.  And the
    longer we live alone, the more engrained it becomes.
    
    A friend of mine was engaged and they bought a house...in the process
    of setting up house, the couple disagreed on two things and oddly
    enough, it escalated into a real battle.  She liked the toilet paper
    rolled over - he liked it under.  She wanted a porcelain kitchen sink - he
    wanted stainless steel.  If you stop and think about it, it is silly to
    let it affect a relationship.
    
    I would like to think that in most cases, pet peeves are created
    sub-consciously and we usually don't even realize it until we come into
    conflict with someone who inadvertently leaves cupboard doors open, leaves
    dishes in the sink, walks out of their clothes and leaves them on the
    floor, etc.
    
    Then again, when pet peeves escalate into true power struggles, it
    makes me wonder about the relationship.  For instance, I dated a man
    who had absolutely no concept of direction.  It drove me crazy!! 
    Looking back on it, I wonder...if I had really cared for this person,
    would it still have bothered me as much?  I think not.  If we love
    people (and I'm talking about friends and family), we are much more
    willing to overlook such things, are we not?
    
    Compromise is a part of our daily lives...in traffic, at work, in
    restaurants, in negotiations - why is it so difficult to do so in
    relationships?  Are we afraid that if we compromise, we'll be seen as
    weak?
    
    I don't think there is one simple answer - I think each of us must stop
    and evaluate how we let scotomas affect our lives.  If the way in which
    the toilet paper is causing havoc in your relationship, then do
    something about it - throw out the tp and use kleenex :-).  But
    seriously.....
    
    
    
    STOP!
    
    THINK ABOUT IT!!!
    
    
    Which is more important....having everything perfect for you or
    establishing a more open and harmonious relationship (please note that
    I'm not saying a perfect relationship).
    
    Kris
    
    
    
    
    

    Here Here!.... <Clap Clap Clap Clap Clap>...  I agree with you 100%
    
    If the relationship is important enough then compromise can be achieved
    
    If not... well why continue the relationship? 
    
    Love is as much trying to understand the other and being able to
    compromise on the differences as it is anything else.  
    
    If the simple problems are suddenly major issues then maybe it is
    time to sit down and think about the relationship.  Pet pieves are
    in all of us... to let them control our feelings about each other
    or esculate into serious arguments means something is wrong.  The
    best relationship I ever had was with a woman who had as many pet
    trivial hang ups as I did.  Whenever one became a real problem we
    would discuss it and try to reach a compromise on it.  If that failed
    then we would each take a problem of equal importance and "give"
    it to the other to work on.  That is... She hated me puting the
    soap on the corner of the bath tub preferring it placed in a hanging
    soap dish... I hated her always squeezing the toothpaste in the
    middle of the tub instead of from the bottom... We had a major
    arguement about the placement of the soap... I felt it was no big
    deal but it really bothered her... I felt she was being silly about
    it.  But it REALLY bothered her... so in exchange for trying to
    remember to put the soap in the dish as she wanted she tried to
    remember to squeeze the tube from the bottom... It worked, we both
    slipped up sometimes but never one more then the other and the 
    argument ended.  
    
    Just my 2 cents worth on it 
    Skip

    MIke and Greg
    
    There is another way of looking at this. Each of us has grown up
    in a family that had particular ways of doing things - from hanging
    toilet paper to how to cook fried chicken to who takes out the trash.
    A lot of these are in our subconscious minds as 'givens' this is the
    *way* things are done. They are part of our routine and we often
    take them with us without a thought when we move into places on our
    own. Then we fall in love with someone else who have different 'givens'
    in their subconsious mind - ways that seem just as logical and
    reasonable and *given* as yours. This has nothing to do with 'if he/she
    really loved/care enough about me they'd not bother. Trivial personal
    matters really do have great significance to people, they are part
    of things they assume subconsciously and such have a 'rightness' about
    them that is not examined by the conscous mind.
    
    Year ago a good friend of mine married an English man who had many many
    givens that she did not share. She decided on her own, which things
    really bothered her and asked him to change those and she agreed to
    ignore the rest. This isn't such a bad idea, tho today I'd encourage
    a couple to sit down and do this together. Mutually agree that each
    will choose 2 or 3 of these 'trivial' things that really set their
    teeth on edge and agree to change those things for the SO and agree to
    ignore all the others.
    
    I think it is workable.
    
    Bonnie

    re: .5 (Kris)
    
    � If we love people (and I'm talking about friends and family), we 
    � are much more willing to overlook such things, are we not?
    
    You've touched on what I consider to be a key dynamic in the
    problems with "trivialities" in relationships.  I think part of
    the problem is the tendency to say, "Well, I really care for 
    this person so I'll overlook this behavior of theirs which I
    find annoying; after all, it's a trivial kind of thing."
    
    Yet one of the most common scenarios from homes to couples 
    counseling offices is the picture of people who really do care
    a great deal about each other arguing bitterly over trivialities.
    It's tempting to say, "Perhaps they really don't care *that* much
    about each other", but I think that's off the mark.  I suspect that
    it's closer to the case to say that although people in relationships
    often say to themselves that they'll simply overlook a particularly
    annoying behavior, without any outlet those small annoyances tend
    to build up over time and form a pattern of discontent.  It's one
    thing to arrive at a rational decision to overlook a pet peeve,
    but I don't think that necessarily satisfies the emotional side.
    It seems to me that small anger is still anger and just like great
    anger, it needs an outlet.  For that reason, I definitely agree
    with your next paragraph.
    
    � Compromise is a part of our daily lives. . .why is it so difficult 
    � to do so in relationships?
    
    In the solid relationships I know of, instead of overlooking the 
    small angers, they are given an emotional release point.  Some 
    people choose methods like physical activity (a workout, smacking
    a pillow, etc) while others do what I consider to be the healthiest
    route.  They actually submit these annoyances to their process of
    compromise - they sit down and talk about them and try to reach
    some sort of compromise agreement (e.g. "I'll work at remembering
    to put the toilet seat cover down if you'll work to find another
    place to hang your pantyhose besides the shower curtain rod.")
    
    In that way, they actively work towards ". . .establishing a more 
    open and harmonious relationship. . ."
    
    Steve

    
    Steve, 
    
    Each of us knows what we can and cannot deal with.   I'm not saying
    that just because we love someone we should ignore every annoyances.  
    In no way, am I advocating that we deny that certain things bothers 
    us.  What I am saying is that in the scheme of things, pet peeves are 
    minor issues.  However, they can escalate into bigger issues if not 
    dealt with.  Regarding the example of my friend and her husband - 
    (obviously, the issues at hand were important to both of them)
    instead of sitting down and rationally discussing it at first, they  
    let it turn into a big battle .  If you're bothered over something and 
    you ask yourself, is this going to matter five years from now and the 
    answer is no, then for *me*, it is trivial.  Where one takes it from there 
    is up to the individual.  For instance,  I can get by with closet doors 
    left open more so than with a room being a pig sty.  How I *react* and
    handle my feelings is my responsibility.  
    
    In the note regarding the toilet seats, I told Mike Zarlenga that pet
    peeves are never trivial when they belong to you.  And it's true but
    what counts is not necessarily that we look the other way but our
    attitude in how we handle it.   I'll be the first to admit that I've
    some silly pet peeves.  (it wasn't until I began noting that SHOUTING
    got under my skin) 
    
    Perhaps you've never experienced this but I've noticed that I'll accept
    (by use of accept, I mean deal with a more open mind) certain annoyances 
    from one person but not necessarily from another.  Why is this?  I
    can't help but wonder if my feelings for the person enters into the
    picture.
    
    Compromising - give and take.  If you're annoyed about a certain
    behavior and you discuss it with the other person and an agreement is
    reached....then you've made a decision and need to let go of the
    anger.  Compromising is a way to let go of that anger, is it not?
    
    I guess I see compromises as a part of social interaction but for some
    reason this compromising seems to be magnified ten-fold when it comes
    to personal relationships.  
    
    Just my feelings on the matter....
    
    Kris
    
    

 RE:    <<< Note 980.7 by HEYYOU::ZARLENGA "alright, I got my eyes on you" >>>

>	Greg Bruno - have you been reading my mind?
    
         No way, Mike.  There's too many big words in there, and no
    pictures.
    
    RE: .8 (Bonnie)
    
         My comment was just the logical counter to the one made
    immediately before it.  I am aware of the true weight of peeves. 
    However, to place the responsibility of tolerating the peeves on one
    side of the relationship is wrong.  The person with the peeve must also
    do their share of giving and understanding.
    
                                          GB

RE: .12

>	How can something which is trivial also have great significance?

OK, I'll bite. 

The writer probably intended to phrase it: "seemingly trivial
personal matters really do have great significance to some
people...". She also happens to be absolutely right. 

I know a person (who happens to work for this big corporation we all
know and love) that has some brilliant technical ideas. It so
happens that his understanding of the caring for and feeding of
electrons is much deeper than his understanding of the caring for
and feeding of humans. I don't think that he has actually ever been
rude or uncouth to anyone, but he certainly shows little interest in
the human aspect of his life. 

As a result, many of his **technical** ideas have been shot down.

Thus, 'trivial personal matters' have certainly been of 'great
significance' in his professional life. If this is true of the
work place, then it is certainly true for the home - which is what
the subject reply was, I think, trying to convey. 

-- Ron 

    Thank you Ron, that was what I was attempting to say. 
    
    If something is one of our 'givens' i.e. 'that is the way it is
    done' even if it is trivial, someone who doesn't do it 'our' way
    will be a source of annoyance and this can be very significant
    in a relationship.
    
    
    Very small (i.e. trivial) things can turn into major stumbling blocks
    if not delet with.
    
    Bonnie

    I guess it depends on how it's ingrained into your character.
    If your raised to feel that these things are not important and 
    don't really matter... then that's how you will react later...
    
    I heard a joke that illustrated the point about trivial and important
    issue (re .13 I think) This example isn't funny but it's based on
    the joke...
    
    A little paraphrasing to make it work but basicially....
    
    You're rich and just bought a brand new Caddy to tool around
    in town with.  Remember now you're so rich that money really has
    no meaning to you... The kind of rich that when your clothes get
    dirty instead of having them cleaned you throw them out and buy
    new ones.  You park your car on the hill in front of your house
    and get out.  Suddenly the car starts to roll down the hill and
    becomes a total wreck by hitting a tree... your feelings on it?
    
    (something along the lines of "no big deal, I'll buy a new one 
    tomorrow)
    
    Now suddenly you realize that your favorite pet was in the front
    seat...
    
    Takes on a different twist then eh? 
    
    
    Skip

I think what happens is that in the first flow of a relationship any 
"differences" are tolerated, maybe seen as "cute", knowing a persons
little foibles makes you closer... and other "good" feelings abound...

When the relationship starts to go sour you lose respect for the person
and for their ideas and "self" becomes more important, and
you become less tolerant...

Alternatively, if the relatioinship grows the "little things" become less
important...

How you deal with things is definitely related to how you feel about the person
concerned, or whether you know them....

One example is if your other half has bad table manners you'll probably comment... 
but if you go to dinner with strangers you accept the same behaviour, you
might not like it, but you probably wouldn't say anything...


Another example is with my lodgers, one of them is a terrible washer-up... 
when he first moved in I said nothing and just re-washed everything after 
him... but after a couple of weeks I knew him well enough to say something.


Xtine

    There is possibly another matter involved here.  Any of these matters 
    taken individually may be trivial, and one partner in a relationship 
    may readily choose to placate the other.  However, if the same person 
    is the one who must look the other way on issue after issue, perhaps
    there is a larger problem which needs resolution.
    
    Claude
    

>Note 980.15          Well, which way SHOULD it roll off ???             15 of 15
>
>        It just seems extraordinarily silly (to me) to be concerned with
>    such matters.
>
>-mike z
>
      Mike you have hit the nail right on the head there. Consideration is
      that feling which allows a person to realise that,  what to them is
      �extraordinarily silly� can be a matter of life or death to someone
      else.  I mean,, we do not wish to dictate to someone else what should be
      important.. do we?
      S..?

    Mike, I think I understand your point but I feel you're missing part of
    the problem.

    You're absolutely right that much of what people fight over can be
    considered insignificant when looked at as a single issue. The problem
    comes in that these things are usually part of a larger set of issues.

    Get ready, I'm gonna scare you :*)....

    Lets say we were married. (there, I knew I'd scare you ;*)) We've been
    together about a year and the "new" has worn off. During this year both
    of us have let slide our feelings on those issues Bonnie refered to as
    "givens". They aren't major problems, just little nagging problems. Now
    we also start having to "really" communicate because of some big
    problem that's occured. We have trouble saying what really bothers us
    so the answer, when we ask each other "what's wrong", is one of the
    little things. Unfortunately, the little thing now carries the emotion
    of the larger problem and bingo! We rage over TP and which way it
    rolls.

    Does this makes sense? Of course not, but I doubt many of us can claim
    we've never reacted that way. It ain't logical, but it sure is human.
    liesl

Re: .22


>	Do we agree that when trivial issues (eg the toliet paper)
>	become significant, that's an indicator of a bigger problem?

I think that's also a given.

Does anyone remember a hilarious British comedy from the fifties,
where a woman wants to divorce her husband because, every day, at
tea time, he marches into the room, rubs his hands together in a
very smug fashion and says: "Ahhh... Tea..." ? 

-------------

Never thought I could possibly get worked up over this momentous 
issue, but today I actually checked which way the printed side of
our toilet paper is facing. 

Turns out the wife got the solid color type. It's not printed. 

-- Ron

>	Do we agree that when trivial issues (eg the toliet paper)
>	become significant, that's an indicator of a bigger problem?

I'd bet that's usually true. I've never really believed those letters in
Ann Landers that start out "My spouse is perfect in every way but this one
little tiny thing that drives me crazy" - I would figure it had to be more than 
that.

<Turns out the wife got the solid color type. It's not printed. 

    Talk about avoiding the big issues in a marriage. ;*) liesl

    
    Someone a few notes back mentioned that he (or was it she?) considers
    whether an issue will be important five years from now before getting
    upset about it.  Oddly, my husband and I have operated for the last
    12 years on "The Ten Year Rule"; i.e., if we *really* think about the
    importance of an issue, and figure that there's no way we're even going
    to remember it in ten years, then we absolutely drop it.  It's hard
    sometimes to step back and be objective in order to determine the
    things that REALLY matter, but it's an effective exercise.  We find it
    particularly difficult when he comes home in a bad mood, and I come
    home in a bad mood, and the two of us snarl at each other until we
    figure out that we're just in bad moods!!!  As soon as we realize
    what's happening, we look at ourselves as being rediculous, have a good
    laugh, then snuggle and got on to matters that WILL be important ten
    years from now!!!! (we hope) ;-}
    
    If they're important, though, we deal with them immediately and
    directly before they turn into problems, and we compromise with each
    other.  In our view, TP isn't important.  Although, it DOES get
    annoying when he....   oops...I digress....
    
    
    

    re: .22 (Mike Z.)
    
    � 	Do we agree that when trivial issues (eg the toliet paper) become
    � significant, that's an indicator of a bigger problem?
    
    I guess that'd depend on what you mean by becoming significant.
    If that you mean that small issues are triggering big responses
    because people aren't dealing with them when they're small, I'd
    agree (and I'd say the problem is communication breakdown).
    
    However, if you're suggesting that a partner speaking up and seeking
    to reach a compromise over an issue that the other feels is "trivial"
    is an indicator of a bigger problem, I'd disagree.  If something
    annoys me it simply does whether or not my partner believes it to
    be "trivial" or not.  It's been my experience that many of the things
    that bug "you" (generic) will seem trivial to "me" (generic) and
    vice versa.
    
    It's also been my experience that it can be very aggravating when a
    partner suggests that the other "shouldn't" get annoyed because the
     problem is "trivial".  It's not so trivial to the aggrieved party
    and the suggestion that one "shouldn't" be bothered by something that
    the other thinks is trivial strikes me as a kind arrogance.  Sure,
    it may not be the biggest problem in life, but the process of 
    day-to-day living over a period of years tends to give these small
    annoyances a chance to build up.  After all, most couples' lives 
    aren't a series crises coming one after another; instead they're the
    relatively routine process of living in close quarters for long
    stretches of time.  
    
    Within that context, I believe that labelling a partner's feelings as
    "trivial" as a way of avoiding doing anything to reach a compromise is
    an indicator of a bigger problem.
    
    Steve

    Thanks for the re-statment, Mike.  I understand your point
    much better now, and I agree.  I've sometimes been a party to
    arguing over a relatively minor issue as a way of deflecting
    attention from a more important problem.
    
    Steve

    Re:29
    
    >> I've sometimes been a party to arguing over a relatively minor issue
    >> as a way of deflecting attention from a more important problem. 
    
               Why ?   
    
    My reason for asking ?  I'll be disappointed to find out that
     "it happens all the time - everywhere.."

<    >> I've sometimes been a party to arguing over a relatively minor issue
<    >> as a way of deflecting attention from a more important problem. 
<    
<               Why ?   
<    
<<    My reason for asking ?  I'll be disappointed to find out that
<     "it happens all the time - everywhere.."

    I know the answer to that one. It's because, for whatever reason, you
    can't face the result of discussing the real problem.

    I'd think a real common area would be sexual satisfaction. Something
    many of us were not brought up to deal with and discuss. I'm not saying
    this is a "good" reason, only that it's something I think would cause
    the problem. Another area is money. Or maybe you think your spouse is
    cheating on you and while you are upset and showing you're upset, you
    are afraid to broach the subject because you can't face the answer.

    We are driven by many things and logic doesn't change feelings even
    when it would be wise to do so. liesl