Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    John,
    
    Howzabout this...
    
    I'm getting married in September and I feel as though I'm in a 3-way
    partnership - he, me and us.  As long as the 3 of us keep
    communicating, we'll build the foundation of a strong relationship that
    will weather whatever storms are ahead.
    
    Now, as for the "wedding industry", that's another story!  Some
    businesses are in the same league as the hard-sell salesperson...sell
    'em the most expensive thing in the book because they only go around
    once.  Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah.  Not for me, thanks.
    
    There are no guarantees that it's going to be smooth sailing ahead, but
    I'll do everything I can to make the relationship work. 
    
    Judi
    
    

    .0 > I'm Tired of hearing everyone complain about their divorce !!!!!
    
    I can see what you mean, but then there are certain notesfiles you'd
    better just avoid.
    
    Have you tried dipping your spoon into COOKS lately?   No such
    discussions there; and while there are "flaming discussions," they're
    not like those to be found elsewhere.  Refreshing, if not directly
    nourishing (but also not directly fattening!).
    
    		- B

>    .0 > I'm Tired of hearing everyone complain about their divorce !!!!!
>
>    I can see what you mean, but then there are certain notesfiles you'd
>    better just avoid.

	if you wanna MOAN (and have a strong stomach, check out MOANS,
	CLOVAX::moans

	beware, however these people (including myself) ALWAYS aim for the
lowest common denominator...

    Geezz...  On your keypad, is a comma key, next time you see a note like
    that, before you read it, lightly depress that comma key...  like magic
    it (the note) will go away...
    
    

    .0 I second your feeling.
    
    I am getting married in July, and it seems that suddenly EVERYONE
    around me is getting or talking DIVORCE.
    I don't know if I have just become more aware of it because I am
    about to get married. But it is really hacking me off.
    
    I do not want people to tell me about the perils of marriage, the
    pain of divorce and the hate and spite of splitting up.
    
    I love my fiance, I want to spend the rest of my life with him,
    please stop telling me this will change and things can only get
    worse. I DON"T WANT TO KNOW, to be honest, it scares me and I don't
    want to be scared.
    I'm not burying my head in the sand, I just don't want to speculate
    or talk about sonmething that, hopefully, may never happen.
    
    There, I feel better now !
    
    Fran.
    

Rather than being scared, use these notes as an opportunity.  Think NOW about
the kinds of problems that break up marriages and strive to address them
from the start, rather than looking back on it years later and wondering
how you could have been so naive.  This is how you make your marriage strong
so it can last a lifetime.

				Steve

    One cheerful note...
    I just had by 25th wedding anniversary... that means a LOT of time with
    "the other half" as you see, not all is divorce.  There are lots of
    people who are happy with their spouses and a marriage has to be
    nurtured to succeed... I imagine it is like a fireplace... you have a
    good fire but if you don't feed it... it dies! so from time to time "a
    log" has to be thrown in... My parents were getting ready to have their
    49th anniversary when Mom passed away.  I've never seen a better
    couple in my whole life! they were so close...I dream of having my
    marriage as good as theirs... That role model makes any marriage
    stronger, more durable than without it. A durable mariage is not easy
    but certainly, not impossible. Look arround and you will see millions!

    RE:
    
    .5> ..and the hate and spite of splitting up..>> 
    
     
      If IT began with love, then how can spite enter into the picture
      at THE END of splitting ? 
    

    .9  I wish I knew.
    
    All I do know is that my brother-in-law to be and his wife are going
    through a divorce after 15 years of marriage, and I have never seen
    a woman so better and twisted. She really is full of spite in the
    things she says and does to him. She almost goes out of her way
    to show him up and put him down in-front of everyone, including
    the rest of the family.
    
    I have often asked the same question as you, how can something that
    began with love end with such hate and spite ?
    
    I wish I knew, 'cos then I would make sure it never happened to
    me.
    
    Fran.

    RE: .9
    
    If you figure it out, quickly bottle it, so it can be recalled and
    never seen again...

    re. .9 -
    
    I can answer from my own experince, though it's not universally
    applicable.  At the time of our split, my ex and I were determined to
    remain friends and co-parents for our children.  All of our early
    discussions were about how we could FAIRLY divide our material
    possessions and what would be the BEST arrangement for the kids.
    
    Then the lawyers and the divorce support groups got involved.  We 
    didn't want to use lawyers, but everyone in the support groups insisted 
    we must or terrible things would happen in the future when something we'd 
    overlooked in our innocence came back to haunt us.  Members of his
    support group kept telling him how wronged he was and how awful I was. 
    I guess eventually he started believing it. 
    
    So we both got lawyers.  And his lawyer demanded X; my lawyer countered
    with Y.  I resisted, remembering our goal of remaining friends.  I
    don't know how long, or even if, my ex resisted.  All I know is that
    2.5 years later we were bitterly arguing over stupidities and our
    relationship was permanently damaged.
    
    I don't know the answer.  I guess lawyers and support groups are
    necessary.  But somehow the principals in the case need to have the
    strength to stand up for what THEY want.  Only problem is, they're both
    hurting so that there is no strength when they need it most.
    
    Before I ever contemplated a divorce, a family friend told me, "I'd
    never wish a divorce on my worst enemy."
    
    Now I know what she meant.
    
    Karen

    
    The closest emotion to love is hate...
    
    
    
    					been there, back again!
    
    					happily married Dec. 22nd 1989!!!
    
    
    							jean
    

    Maybe people should be encouraged to enter more positive notes.  Along
    with learning from other people's mistakes, why not learn from other
    people's successes?  I think it would be great to see a note saying
    something like "My wife and I had a major fight last night.  I was so
    mad that I got up and walked right out of the house.  As I walked down
    the street, I saw one of those guys selling carnations on the side of
    the street so I bought her some flowers and went home and told her I
    was sorry for my part of our fight.  We talked for a while and although
    we didn't resolve the whole issue, we have a better understanding of
    eacch other's feelings.  And you know what?  I learned that we can talk
    about things if we each take the time to cool off when we have an
    argument.  No matter what happens, I believe in us."
    
    This is just an example but I think you get the idea.  Any takers?

    
    	Well, my marriage to Lynn is going on 14 years and is stronger
    	than ever. She's my best friend also. I find her fascinating
    	after all these years. There's so much I know about her and
    	so much more I want to learn. We really never fight, maybe
    	once every couple of years, if that. We learned long ago
    	that when you fight, even if you win, you lose. If anything,
    	our biggest difficulty is that we're often too concerned with
    	how the other feels. I think it's also important that neither
    	of us tries to control or change the other.
    
    	I don't really know why our marriage works so well, it's
    	very hard to explain. Maybe it's telling that we both
    	wonder why the other has stuck with us after all these years.
    
    								Hank 

    
    
      Well I wrote the base note, so why not put in a positive experience.
    
      My wife and I just finished about a 3 month dispute that reached
    down to the very core of our relationship and tested every part
    of our love for each other.  After a tremendous amount of talking
    and talking loudly and then talking some more we came to the
    inescapable conclusion that we just could'nt survive let alone be
    happy without each other and our little 6 month old girl Allison.
    
      What made working through this feel that much better is the fact
    that both of my older sisters are now divorced (one recently) and
    it is screwing up my whole family since one of them was married
    to my step-brother.  They stranded 3 children between the two divorces
    and they are all showing signs of the strain.  The worst part about
    the two of them getting these divorces is the fact that there was
    no really good reason for either one IMHO they are both beeing jerks.
    
      But I do love my Wife of 3 1/2 years Dearly and plan on staying
    married a very long time !!
    
      JOhn C.
    

    
    
    Hmmm...18 years this June {Egad! Am I that old?}
    
    One thing that seems to have helped us now and then...
    we try to treat each other with at least the same amount
    of respect we would a stranger on the street corner.
    
    It is amazing how easy it is to translate intimacy into
    disrespect.
    
    Melinda
    

>applicable.  At the time of our split, my ex and I were determined to
>remain friends and co-parents for our children.  All of our early

    There is a trend where just this is happening for lots of people.
    In a sense I feel a little jealous at times; and then I turn and
    realize how great  that must be for the kids.

    
>Then the lawyers and the divorce support groups got involved.  We 
>didn't want to use lawyers, but everyone in the support groups insisted 
    
    Support Groups  ??   I don't know what sort of support group(s) this
    must  be,  but   the  ones  I've  belonged  to  encouraged  friendly
    cooperation and discouraged bitterness and feuding.
    
    Lawyers ??  Yeah some lawyers creates a "who's right" vs "who's wrong"
    and paint some darn good financial  scenarios  for  "who's  right".
    Some states are getting creative though, and  are openly encouraging
    "family referees" or "arbitrators", to avoid just what you describe.
    
>2.5 years later we were bitterly arguing over stupidities and our
>relationship was permanently damaged.
    
    
>I don't know the answer.  I guess lawyers and support groups are
>necessary.  But somehow the principals in the case need to have the
    
    Don't blame the lawyers, though.    Blaming  the lawyers is like the
    Nuremburg defense .." they made me do it...".  For whatever reason,
    the lawyers and 'support people' offered advice,  and  'someone took
    it'.  If your ex is putting you  through  the  hoops,  it is because
    they failed to keep their word and agreement with you.

    In  my  second divorce, she and I used basically one lawyer,  and  I
    only sought counsel from a second on the advice of this one.   Total
    cost  was about $75.00 in legal fees.  (As an aside, I "could"  have
    made claim to  property  that was "legally" partly mine, but morally
    was not.  My  personal  attorney  called this to my attention, and I
    chose not to pursue it.)  There were other funds in question my "ex"
    could have made claim to, but  chose  not  to pursue that.  We were
    agreed: No more unnecessary pain).
    
    However,  no  substantial  property  was  involved, and we basically
    abided  by  our  prenuptial agreement (although there was no LEGAL
    reason to do so).
    
    I am happily  married  again ..  we made the commitment before we got
    married "..  all issues will be resolved ..." and "..  we will never
    get divorced ... unless there is no alternative".

    -Yes,  there are decent folks out there ...  but marriage  followed
    by divorce is so unpredictable ... its tough even at its best ..
    
    Bob