Conference quark::human_relations-v1

>    ... if I choose to have a baby out of wedlock, shouldn't it be
>    mine and my boyfriends decision and not anyone elses? 

Absolutely. The decision is yours and your boyfriend's and no one
else's. 

Of course, in forming that decision, you may wish to take into
account the way it affects the other people you love. In that
context, you could come to realize that --just for your mother's
happiness-- you are willing to make a sacrifice by making some
concessions. While balancing your wishes against your mother's
happiness is up to you (both) alone, you should consider all
ramifications while deliberating. 

If your final decision is not to get married, I wonder if an open
'heart to heart' talk with your mother will not help her see things
form your point of view. 

Good luck.

-- Ron

>>            How do I convince her that the decision is mine?  How do
>>    I tell this friend that I don't want her to discuss my personal
>>    business with my mother any more and that if she wished to continue
>>    discussing my personal business, that she should talk to me?

	Print two copies of .0 and hand one to each of them?

	Dan

    Do what you feel is best for the "three" of you.  I've been in
    circumstances somewhat similar to yours.  I've been divorced for 17-18
    years and starting seeing someone about a year after the divorce.  My Mom
    didn't approve of my situation initially but she didn't outright try to
    tell me what to do.  She did talk W-I-T-H me (not T-O) me about her
    feelings, but the decision about my relationship was mine and she
    respected that.  We've never had children together but each have two
    children from a former marriage.  For us that was enough.  We didn't
    want anymore.  I'm happy to say that 16-17 years later I'm still with
    the same man and we're still happy.  About 2-1/2 years ago we bought a
    home together and are still happy.  We've been through some hard times
    (if you read note 969 you'll see some of the hard times) but we hang in
    there together.  I'd like to be married but he doesn't want marriage
    today.  He feels as you and your gentleman friend feel ---> that you
    don't need that certificate to make your relation better or to make
    either of you love the other more than you do now.  
    
    Give your Mom her space and let her have her opinion.  I heard in a
    movie I saw recently that "opinions are like assholes, everyone has
    one!"  Love your Mom, but give her her space.  Try not to let her
    trouble you.  Once you have your little one she'll come around ....
    maybe more than you want her too! Can you involve her in helping you get 
    ready for the baby?  Maybe she needs that involvement and to feel that 
    she's actually doing something to help you ... her baby!  We all tend to 
    forget when we grow up that we once were someone's baby.   I didn't mean 
    to sound harsh above.  Just trying to get a point across and to try to 
    help you realize that you've got to do what is best for you.  All mothers, 
    myself included, want to protect our children, no matter how old they are.  
    Our love for our children never goes away.  I'll bet your Mom is concerned 
    that if your relationship sours that you'll be alone, no money, no place to
    live, whatever ....  Try to look at the situation through her eyes.
    You're going to be a Mom soon and you'll understand that
    "protectiveness" that comes out in a parent.  Don't close her out or
    push her aside.  Instead reassure her that you appreciate her concern
    for you and the baby, you're happy the way you are and marriage isn't
    going to make you any happier, the baby will be loved and taken care of
    and she'll be able to see the baby often.  Babies have a wonderful way
    of making us realize that life once was so sweet and innocent and we
    can't stay angry.
    
    Just give her time, your love and your patience and understanding as
    well.  Watch, she'll come around.  It's just going to take more time.
    
    Virginia
    

    
    
    Lori,
    
    
    I agree with the others.  The decision is between you and the father
    of your child.  However, by being an unmarried single parent you
    are throwing alot of other factors in to the pot.  I am not saying
    that you and the father are going to end up separate.  And I hope
    for the child's sake that this never happens.  But each of you has
    to look at all of the implications.
    
    Being a single parent legally you have 100% custody of the child
    regardless of the level of involvement of the father (in Mass).
    This can only be changed if and only if you agree to it.  You
    should really speak to a lawyer about drawing up an agreement
    before the child is born.  One of the reasons I say this is
    because if you are not married the child's medical expenses are
    not covered under the father's benefits unless it is stipulated
    in a legal document.  This may vary so I would check into it.
    
    Also being a single parent you are the only person who can claim
    the child as an exemption on your taxes.  This is a small nit but
    can add up to big bucks in the long run.  This too can be changed
    but only if it is stipulated in a legal document.
    
    My boyfriend has gone through all of this and beleive me he still
    wishes that he and the mother had signed an agreement before the
    child was born.  Because once the child arrived the mother suddenly
    realized that she held all the cards.  She had the right to tell
    him when he could and could not see the child.  Mind you their
    circumstances seemed quite different than yours.  But a child
    does change people.  Some are can deal with the changes and some
    can not.  It is much better to be prepared than not.
    
    I wish all three of you the best.  You must be very excited about this!
    Keep telling your mom you love her, but you are adult enough to make
    your own decisions.  Also, tell her that having a child is not a
    good reason to get married.  I would definately wait until after the
    child is born and you both are accustomed to the situation.  Then
    look at getting married if that is what you both want.
    
    God Bless,
    Michele
    

    I would not be concerned if my daughter had a child "out of wedlock"
    as long as I knew she made enough money on her own to raise a child.
     If she didn't, I would want her to get married so that the father
    would be legally responsible for helping to support the baby.  So
    many women have suffered trying to raise kids on their own that
    it seems a natural enough concern for a mother to have.
    
    Lorna
    

    
    Lorna,
    
    In Mass it doesnt matter if the parents are married.  The father
    is still legally responsible to pay child support if the mother
    pushes for it.  Of course the "father" is the person listed as
    such on the birth certificate.  There is no proof required that
    listed father is paternal father.  The burden of proof is on him
    if he needs to take that course.  Definitely unfair, but still the
    practice.
    
    Michele

    Re .6, That's interesting.  I was under the impression, I believe
    from a note I read a couple of yrs. ago in womannotes, that a mother
    had to have permission from the father before she could put his
    name on the birth certificate, and that if he wouldn't give permission,
    she would then have to take him to court (a paternity suit).  Maybe
    that was a different state?
    
    (I don't know, because, thank god, the problems never cropped up
    in my life)
    
    Lorna
     

    Lori,
    
    I had to deal with this situation this time last year, with my
    SO's parents.  His mother even sent us this letter, pleading with
    us to get married, "I don't want any stigma attached to the baby,"
    and so on, which was like emotional blackmail.  Needless to say,
    we didn't get married "just for the baby's sake", as far as we are
    concerned we have made enough of a commitment to each other, and
    didn't need a piece of paper to prove it.  Now Lauren is nearly
    5 months, and they adore her, but I still feel the pressure is
    there whenever we see them.  But we feel this is our decision, and
    although other people's feelings are important, it's you that 
    matters, and at this stage you don't need others trying to pressurise
    you into doing something you don't feel ready to do.  I can understand
    in a way that 30 years ago this was not 'the done thing' and it
    will be difficult (if impossible) to change your mother's attitude.
    But don't let it spoil your relationship with your mother, and try
    to involve her in everything you can to do with the baby, having
    a first one is very special
    good luck!
    
    Donna
    
    
      
    

    While I agree with all the "it's your life comments" there may be some
    legal considerations. If you aren't married and something serious
    happens medically your lover may not be allowed to see either you or
    the child and will not have any say in your treatment. I thought this
    was one of the big issues with homosexuals wanting to be allowed to be
    legally married and why just living together wasn't enough. Maybe
    something like a power of attorney or some other legal document takes
    care of this. liesl

    First I'd like to take this opportunity to thank all of you for
    your replies.  After I put this note in on Friday, I was still teed
    off at my mother for making my whole day a miserable one.  I tried
    to calm down about it, but until I got it completely off my chest,
    I knew it was going to grate on my nerves.  As soon as I got home
    I called my mother and told her just how I felt.  I told her that
    I had discussed our conversation with Steve and he felt the same
    way I did.  I also told her that I was sick and tired of her allowing
    other people's opinions to sway her feelings.  We both got very
    angry and the argument got a little overheated and it ended up with
    her hanging up on me.  I decided that I wasn't going to call her
    and I knew in time she'd call me as if nothing was wrong.
    
    Well yesterday I was home not feeling well and the phone rang. 
    You guessed it, it was mom.  She started the converstation with,
    "Hi, are you mad at me?" (In a very whinny, guilty sort of voice.)
    I told her I was never mad at her and that she was the one who hung
    up on me.  She than said "I hung up because I was tired of listening
    to you yell me.  I appreciate your opinion and I was only trying
    to let me know what my opinion is.  I realize that you're an adult,
    but I only want what's best for you, and I'm sorry if you got angry
    at me for that".  I told her that I wasn't mad, but I'd appreciate
    it if that from know on, she'd discuss her opinion with me first
    before she got other people involved.  She agreed and the rest of
    the conversation (1 hour, at least) was quite pleasant.  She even
    told me that she saw some cute baby things on sale at Building 19
    and that she wanted me to come over on Saturday so we could go shopping
    together.
    
    So like everyone said, give her her space and she'll come around.
    
    Thanks again,
    Lori

    
    
       I'm curious to find out how many men would agree to let their
       girlfriends have a baby out of wedlock and yet want to help in 
       child rearing and financial support.   THis would be an ideal
       situation as far as I'm concerned.    
    
                   
                          Melinda 
    
                                           
                         

         For those who don't feel marriage is for them, the only problem I
    see is the one already being discussed in another topic: the bias of
    the courts.  Should this relationship go sour, it will be even easier
    for the guy to get financially shafted than if they were married. 
    The already faint chance of the father getting custody of the child
    would become completely non-existant in the absence of a legal union.
    
         If I was a woman, however, I would LOVE such an arrangement.
    
                                       Greg

    re. .11
    
    Agree to "let" their girlfriends have a child out of wedlock?
    How could any man force a woman (girl) NOT to have the child if
    she wanted to?
    
    How do you define "help" with child rearing and financial support?
    
    In a marriage, hopefully you have daily commitment and caring for
    the family as a whole, childcare included.
    In a live-in relationship even without legal marriage hopefully you
    would have this.
    If the father is not there fulltime, married or not, maybe he could
    participate in the child-rearing, but he'd have to work pretty hard
    at it.
    
    ??  Beth