Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    Why not just ask him in casual conversation how he feels about
    someone in a relationship that dates others? There could be many
    reasons, you could be mistaken in what you think is happening.
    Or, he could be going out on you. Did your relationship have any
    guidelines on this?

    One thing is for sure, if you were worried enough to have a friend
    post this note it's a problem. If you don't deal with it the worry
    and suspicion will fester like an infected wound. liesl

    Re:959.0
    >> ..He's been married before and technically still is...but they were
    never truly-in-love...>>
    
    What convinced you to assume that: "they were never truly-in-love.." ?
    How could you tell ?  
    
    If they were not "truly-in-love" even though they were married, then
    how can both of you assume that "You-are-truly-in-love" with each
    other at this stage of the relationship ? 
    

   It COULD be innocent.  You MAY know enough about the situation to make a
   call on that.  If you don't, then you really should confirm with him
   what his intentions are.  Thats step one.
   
   If you KNOW (how?) that it is not innocent, that he has some kind of
   romantic or sexual interest, and that bothers you, then you need to talk
   about each of your ideas about what it means to be in love, committed,
   engaged, married.
   
   You said "I KNOW HE LOVES ME".  Well, if in YOUR mind people don't go
   out with other people when they are in love, then either he doesn't
   share your belief, or he doesn't love you (at least the way you THINK).
   
   It doesn't matter what the ground rules are, as long as you both agree. 
   If he believes in one set of rules for men and one set for women, and
   you accept his rules without any problems, it doesn't matter what anyone
   else thinks.
   
   But if YOU have a problem with what he is doing, but he doesn't, then
   BOTH of you have a problem, because your beliefs aren't completely in
   sync.
   
   Just because two people SAY "I love you", doesn't mean they are thinking
   on the same wave length, or expressing the exact same feelings.  As
   you've probably heard MANY times, in France they have many (27?) words
   for love, meaning different things.  One for parents and siblings, one
   for lovers (meaning sex), etc.  In English we have only ONE, and its
   left as an excercise for the listener to figure out which shade of
   meaning is intended.  All too often I think we hear the one we want to
   hear, without clarifying.  Sooner or later, the miscommunication comes
   out, perhaps even AFTER the marriage.  Perhaps his ex-wife thinks
   differently about their time together.
   
   Someone recently told me about a woman in a multi-year relationship with
   a man.  She said 
   
   	"She 'loves' him, but shes not 'IN love' with him.  Thats why she 
   	won't marry him"
   
   Well, this is a crude attempt to distinguish between two types of love,
   or emotional attachment, but its not very precise.  If you think you
   know EXACTLY what the person is talking about, you should think twice. 
   And if you are thinking about marrying someone and you still haven't
   qualified things anymore than that, be careful.
   
   I'm sure that, having known each other for a while, and having been
   intimate, you THINK you have a good idea about how he thinks.  But, from
   your note, you are telling me that there is SOMETHING you don't know,
   that you have never seen before.  Thinsk you thought you KNEW are not
   what you thought.  Its time to step back, throw out some of your hard
   and fast beliefs that you are relying heavily on, and question some
   basics.  Its a HARD thing to do.  Not as hard as breaking up and
   starting over with someone else.
   
   But don't come here for answers, go to him.  Figure out how or *IF* you
   see things differently.  THEN decide if what he calls love is what you
   thought it was and is what you seek from a lifemate.
   
   Good luck!
   
   Jim
   

    	Why does "having dinner with someone" and planning to get
    together again necessarily equate to dating??  Couldn't it be that
    he's just met someone he's found interesting and wants to get to
    know, without having any romantic intentions??

	Personally, I enjoy meeting new people, and if I'm involved
    with someone, and I meet someone new that I find interesting, I 
    don't see anything wrong with getting together.  It in no way 
    means I'm "dating" them, or have any intentions of sleeping with 
    them.  

	I think you need a bit more info - we can all speculate on his
    motivations, but none of us can tell you what he's doing.  Maybe he 
    is dating...or maybe he's just making a new friend?

    	amy

    Just because he is having dinner with someone it does not automatically
    mean they they are having a sexual relationship. They could just be
    really good freinds and enjoy each other's company. There is absolutely
    nothing wrong with that.   As long as it does not lead to romantic
    involvement, I don't think there is anything wrong with him having a
    close female freind.
    
    
    Just my 2 cents.. :-)
    
    Lynne

    
    I notice the previous notes mentioned this could 
    be a perfectly innocent night out with a friend. 
    If it is, why doesn't she KNOW about the perfectly
    innocent friend that he seems to want to spend 
    time with? True, there is nothing wrong with this 
    type of friendship. But he is not sharing any 
    information about this "friend" - why is the big 
    question?
                                               
    
    The one time I "discovered" an innocent friend of a former
    boyfriend, I had never heard about, my worst fears became
    reality. Yes, it was another woman, and not just a friend.
                                  
    
    I also sense the discovery was probably a result
    of possibly looking thru personal belongings, phone machine? 
    I can see this would be awkward to bring up. 
    
    I would probably say something like "a co-worker, acquaintance,
    whatever, saw you out to dinner - would you like to tell 
    me about your new friend?  If it is innocent, you can be 
    relieved. Your friend sounds troubled enough to use this 
    forum for advice, so I think I would confront the issue
    and get some resolution. 
    
    I hope it turns out OK.                                            
    
                                                              
    

    Come right out and ask this person.  If you FEEL he is telling
    you the truth and there is nothing to worry about ... so be it.
    I was in a similar type situation as you and I GOT BURNT.  Okay,
    maybe I am still bitter, but it was a VERY PAINFUL ordeal and 
    I don't wish that on anyone.  
    
    In any event, I truly hope things work out for you.  Love can
    not only be a beautiful experience, but can be a painful one in
    the process.
    
    All the best to you.

    In my own experiance I have gone from on extreme to the other on this
    topic in what I have done in the past and would do in the future.
    
    In the past WHen I found out my fiance was seeing someone else(I saw
    his truck parked out side of our friends apartment.) I confronted
    him and when he lied about it I broke the engagement. I was seventeen
    and a senior in high school. He was 21 and the girl he had been with
    was probally between 20 and 25. I missed the prom that year and I am
    glad. Because later in life I ingnored the same situation and got a lot
    more hurt... more responcibility (a child) and I required a divorce.
    
    In recent history I have finally found a man who is raved about by
    all his friends(male and female) and some women even suggested that 
    if they hadn't meet thier husbands first then he wouldn't have been a 
    free man when I met him. 
    
    If I couldn't trust him to talk to me if he felt like having an
    open marrage I wouldn't have developed the relationship and gotten
    married.
    
    We have both watched couples with suposedly open marriages and someone 
    is usually hurt in some sutuation and now one couple we are close to
    is actually getting a divorce. I found out after Christmas but they
    just kept it from us as they knew when we had our wedding this Oct and 
    just felt it was better not to say anything. I am glad they didn't
    
    THis is a topic We dialoged (meaning looked at from all posible angles)
    and together came to the conclution that fanticies are nice but in
    reality peoples feelings get hurt. We love each other enough not to
    want to hurt each other. If I couldn't dialog about this with him I 
    would have remained single. I have enough problems trying to raise two
    (then now it is three) children. I dont need complications that make 
    me feel even more unsure of myself. I dont mind what letting other
    people do what they want to do but I dont feel comfortable following
    suit.(Catholic upbringing maybe?) 
    
    Now If sometime in the future I saw him with other people or another 
    person I dont think I would think anything of I because I would go
    right over and say Hi! and join right in (It's my right as his special
    lady) If she/he seemed uncomfortable I wouldn't think anything of it.
    If my sweetie seemed uncomfortable I would talk to him later about it.
    
    I have learned that to save my sanity I must discuss these issues 
    with him. I cant live in a relationship If I cant trust him to try
    to protect my feelings as I would his. I expect no more from him that I
    am willing to give.
    
    janet
    
    

    Be aware talking doesn't work if you're using the same words but mean
    different things. Communication can sound and feel like it is occurring,
    but you can be a million miles apart in truth.

    Tamzen

    re. 6
    I agree with you.  Why is the big question.  Your friend should ask her 
    boyfriend about this other "friend", if it is strictly platonic then
    there should be no fear.  That is true, he should have told your friend
    that he is friends with this woman and taking her out to dinner.
    
    If it is a big secret, then that is another story.
    
    
    One cent more...
    
    Lynne

    
    
    
    The statement that concerns me most is "I like to fix
    people's problems, pain, make it all go way" even though
    your actions are "hard" for you.  I also see a lot of
    focus on him and less on you.
    
    Sounds like a heart-to-heart is in order.  Something is
    not right here. You seem to be quite clear on what he
    feels and has felt in the past, on where your relation-
    ship is, and where it's going. It also sounds as if you
    aren't sure he is as clear about the above.  Or perhaps
    he doesn't share your thoughts on the subjects.
    
    I'd like to see a little more focus on you.  On what YOU
    want, need, expect, both now and in the future.  Once you
    have clarified these things in your mind, have an open
    discussion with him.
    
    If his expectations and plans don't match your expectations
    and plans, understanding and fixing from you are simply not
    going to work.
    
    Deb
                  

>                      <<< Note 959.6 by BARTLE::LESSARD >>>
    
>    I notice the previous notes mentioned this could 
>    be a perfectly innocent night out with a friend. 
>    If it is, why doesn't she KNOW about the perfectly
>    innocent friend that he seems to want to spend 
>    time with? True, there is nothing wrong with this 
>    type of friendship. But he is not sharing any 
>    information about this "friend" - why is the big 
>    question?


	 That's the question I'm fighting with.  The problem with a
	 scenario like this (not telling even though it's innocent) is
	 that when people find out thru different channels, they feel
	 betrayed by the other person.  Even if the relationship is
	 completely open and dating others is great, it's still a
	 great betrayal to know that the person didn't have honesty to
	 tell you about it.
	 

	 Hearing about things from someone else not the person
	 involved feels like deceit, plain and simple.  No one likes
	 to feel deceived even if it is perfectly innocent.

	 Honesty and openness in a relationship is of the utmost
	 importance to me....but it needs to be understood that some
	 people feel that "what you don't know can't hurt you."  Well,
	 plain and simple, they're wrong, it can......

	 Perhaps talking to him about it and bringing it out in the
	 open and expressing your need to know what's going on is the
	 key here.  Perhaps he just doesn't realize the implications
	 that can arise when you "hear it from someone else" and the
	 feelings inside that can fester as a result of that.

	 kath    
                                                              
    

    From a very fine project management course I took years back, I took to
    heart the principle that virtually without exception you should try to
    get out _early_ - and also _from you_ - anything that might be
    construed as "bad news."
    
    I have found it to be a valuable guideline in life in general, not just
    project management.  It's kind of a capsulized version of what kath is
    saying in different terms in -.1.
    
    		- Bruce

    IMHO - Confront him asap.  If it's such a secret, just say that friends
    told you or saw him w/her.  If you cannot trust him, then the
    relationship isn't worth hanging onto or saving.  He'll probably lie,
    in which, you should maybe give him an ultimatum.
    
    This situation has happened to me twice.  The first time, I just let
    things slide, didn't confront, nor did I give an ultimatum.  He lied
    his head off and I got hurt very badly in the end.  The second time, I
    learned from the first mistake, didn't take any sh*t and confronted
    him.  I then proceeded to dump him after he tried to deny things, gave
    him an ultimatum, which for once, I stuck to, and it must have been
    meant to be because now I trust him in a roomful of Playmate
    Centerfolds and we are happy and devoted to each other.
    
    The Answer?  DON'T SELL YOURSELF SHORT!  You are one-of-a-kind, with
    much to offer ANY man.  If he promised you the moon and the stars so
    soon, throwing caution to the winds as it were, then reneges on those
    dreams/promises, is this the type of person you *really* want to spend
    the rest of your life with?
    
    Make yourself less accesible, become more independent.  Focus on
    yourself (as per .11) and everything will fall into place for you.  Try
    to develop outside interests or go back to school if you can't just sit 
    around the house.  It is really hard, once you get used to your lover
    being around, but your independence will tell him something.  When I
    left my sweetheart, he realized what he was about to lose, as compared
    to this other relationship (which was not a healthy one) he had, and
    the choice must have been sort of easy to make.
    
    The old adage, if you love something, set it free, if it comes back,
    it's yours --- if it doesn't, it never was ... is *so true*.
    
    Good luck and let us know what happened.
    
    Tammi
    

    
    
    And yet another adage that seems applicable:
    
    "Fool me once, shame on you.  Fool me twice, shame on me"
    
    Deborah
    

This is from the author of the base note.

===============================================================================

Lots of good questions and advice, thank you all.  I'll try to answer 
the questions. 

Re: .2
He had been alone for some time, had recently turned 30, and was
starting to feel 'old' and like he was 'supposed to be' married.  About
that time he re-met his high school sweetheart and soon after married her.
He told me this, we've talked about on several occasions and I
believe it.

How do I know he loves me?  I just do.  I can tell by the time we spend 
together, the things he does for me, he SHOWS me he loves me every single 
day, in many many ways.  

RE: .3
How I found out:  we're both out of the office quite a bit and often catch 
up on mail from home at night.  He was reading his last week and his next door 
neighbor stopped by.  He went down to talk to him and I was using the 
terminal.  When I was done, I looked in his mail for a letter from a mutual 
friend he was telling me about, and.......

RE: .5 and others
This is not an old friend, but definitely a new acquaintance.  Regarding
that I noticed the same thing before, I know he met with an old girlfriend 
several months ago.  I believe they each had some things of the others, etc.  
Their meeting didnt bother me, nor does his having female friends, but the 
fact that he didnt think he should or could tell me does.  I know that's
something I/we need to work on, and I intend to, but I dont want to make
that an issue in this.


You are all absolutely right about getting it out in the open, and while I
want that, I do not want to confront or accuse him of cheating on or trying 
to deceive me.   It could still be innocent (as far as romance and/or sex 
goes).   I'd rather somehow let him know that I know about this, and let him 
know my feelings, without a confrontation.   Maybe it sounds like I'm trying 
to avoid an argument and maybe that's true.  But I want to give him the 
benefit of the doubt, see if he'll do the right thing, see where he puts us.  
I want to know what he'll do because of 'him', not what he'll do because 
of 'me'.

So, if I (think) I know what I want, what's the problem?  I dont know if I 
can hang in there.   I find myself thinking about it at odd times, sometimes 
right in the middle of one of our special moments, and I'm afraid its going 
to show through, or is already, that I wont be able to keep it in, or that
I'll do or say something foolish.

Am I being stupid?  Am I just afraid to bring it into the open, hiding from
the truth?   Or do I really believe this is innocent and will work itself
out?   If I know what I want, why am I having such a hard time doing and 
dealing with it?

G.

    I have been in relationships that were fraught with jealousy and
    distrust.  I'm talking about extremes that made it painful to even
    arrange a surprise Christmas gift, because of the suspicions that came
    up - it was easier just to never have surprises.
    
    That extreme is *NOT* healthy (and as a result, the relationship is no
    more).  But the relationship was kept alive for a long time by just not
    having any secrets.  
    
    The lesson is that secrets, at least ones that don't have a positive,
    mutually beneficial intent, can destroy a relationship.  A relationship
    with no secrets, may be lackluster, but will NOT suffer from deception,
    jealousy and other problems.
    
    Thats simplistic - life gets a little more complicated than that.  But
    it sounds like there are things going on here that he doesn't want you
    to share in or be a part of.  If you didn't have a problem with that,
    you wouldn't be here, asking for help.  I hear you saying that you want
    to let him "prove himself", but it dosen't sound like you believe in
    that approach in your heart.  Giving him "rope to hang himself" is
    admirable in a way, but remember that you are probably going to be the
    one hurt the most if he isn't able to win your trust.
    
    Maybe its just me, but I always hated it when someone sat back and
    waited to see if I would fulfill their expectations, or dash them,
    without telling me I was being judged.  Its a kind of one-sided game
    that I couldn't really win.  Everyone in the whole notesfile knows what
    he has to do to prove himself to you, EXCEPT HIM.
    
    As strange as it seems, talking between two people that love each other
    can be really difficult.  You don't seem to feel comfortable with going
    up and saying "we need to talk about something that is bothering me". 
    I would suggest that, if you can't do that NOW, that it will be a
    problem later, like after you are married.  And if you can't do that
    with your future mate, I question whether the relationship is right.
    
    Talking about things that hurt is NEVER easy.  But never talking about
    them only makes things worse.  From my one-sided, incomplete point of
    view, I'd say if you can't bring yourself to talk, you're in trouble.
    And you seem reluctant to talk, which might cause trouble.  But for my
    money in the long run you're better off finding out about
    incompatibilities NOW than later.
    
    BUT, if you manage to get everything worked out now, you'll put an end
    to all your concerns a lot more quickly, and start moving ahead again.
    
    Simplistic, yes.  Easier said than done, yes.  Maybe you can bounce
    some of these ideas off someone who knows more about your situation,
    and might be able to help you make a more impartial decision.
    
    Again, I wish you well in getting it resolved.
    
    Jim
    

    This problem is obviously causing you some distress, and should
    be discussed sooner, rather than later.  Please don't put it off
    any longer, because one way or another he's going to know something
    is wrong (he loves you, and he probably will be able to read your
    emotions to some extent).  I find it difficult to see how you are
    going to discuss this without, appearing to confront him, and at
    the same time appeasing your mind.  A similar situation occured
    at home for me too, my husband was meeting a female business
    acquaintance, and hadnt told me.  I was hurt - not because I thought
    anything was 'going on', but because he hadnt told me.  I too, found
    out in dubious ways... I picked my moment, when we could talk, as
    you will be able to do, made it clear I wasnt confronting him, I
    didnt admit to how I found out, just that I had, I told him it was
    causing me problems, and that if we didnt talk this molehill, will
    become a mountain.  I believe that you are in love with eath other,
    if you are, you will be able to work this out, because he will hold
    your feelings at highest priority, and will want to sort it out.
    If after talking, you feel he has not been totally honest, then
    you will have to face that if (I hope not) that happens.
    
    Please DO talk to him.  My best wishes are with you..
    
    Sarah 

    .17 and .18 have some good points for you to ponder.
    
    I can tell that this is eating away at you inside, sooner or later it
    will affect the relationship in a negative way.  If you wait for him to
    bring it up, as *I* did, by that time all this turmoil inside you will
    have you questioning everything he does and says.
    
    Sooner or later the guilt he feels will show through.  I found out
    because he kept forgetting *who* he was with, one night when he had a
    couple drinks he called me her name and it just about killed me.  I
    immediately confronted him on it (although I had known for a month
    about his other "friend") and gave him an ultimatum (which also just
    about killed me inside).  Do you want to wait *this* long?  I still
    feel so much pain inside when I remember this past part of our
    relationship.  I wish I had told him I knew about her much sooner than
    I did, before it got to the point where he was mega-confused about who
    he was with and I got resentful that he was living this "double life".
    
    Tammi
    

    
    I wrote reply .6 a way back. I think I know how you
    feel - your companion still appears to be loving 
    wanting to spend time with you, wanting a regular
    life - and you are afraid your suspicions will mess
    up the "good" you have. I too, felt too much "good"
    was there, and my imagination was working overtime. 
    I mean, I get invited to his folks for XMAS, and 
    three weeks later, I find out the suspicions were
    right, and the "friend" was turning into a romantic
    fling.  Boy, I really wished I had confronted it - 
    I would have felt a little better than having been
    dumped in nasty way that eventually happened. (Still
    I hate this time of year!)
    
    I know this eats at you, and you must find some way
    to let him know. I'ts so hard - but you must think
    of yourself first. You are fighting the feelings - but
    they are popping up in your mind at different times. 
    The sooner you do it, the sooner YOU will feel better. 
    I hope this advice helps, as you can see many of us 
    have been through this before!  
    

    	You don't have near enough information to make any kind of
    judgement about what's going on.  There's only one person you should
    talk to if you *are* serious about each other and that's *him*.
    Something like, "How do you feel about us seeing other people, and
    under what circumstances?"


    	Frankly, I have several female friends that even if I was married,
    I would *still* go out with.  We have dinners, go to movies, talk and
    in general have a great time.  Regardless of what Billy Crystal said in
    "When Harry Met Sally" (great movie though!), it *is* possible for men
    and women to be friends.  If someone I was seeing had a problem with it
    then I would try to work it out but I can't see that I would ever give
    up those friendships.  They're too important to me.  Of course, if I
    was married I'd probably bring my wife along.  ;-)


    	Conversely, I would have no problems with her going out with male
    friends.  As long as you've talked it out and trust each other, there
    shouldn't be any problem.


    Brian

    
    	My fiance and I trust each other totally.  I have many male
    	friends, most of whom I knew before he and I ever met.  I 
    	meet some of them alone or sometimes my fiance is with me
    	or sometimes in a social setting. (party, etc)  We go out
    	for drinks or to eat or whatever.  My fiance doesn't mind.
    	As long as I'm not out every night!  =)  I tell him about
    	them so he'll know who they are when I mention they're names
    	and he's met most of them.  There are a couple who are men	
    	that I used to date or wanted to date but nothing ever became
    	of a relationship.  My fiance doesn't believe in jealousy.
    	Says it's a waste of time and energy.  We trust in our love
    	for each other and neither of us has felt threatened by the
    	fact that the other has friends of the opposite sex.  I could
    	never see myself giving up these friends as they are a very
    	important part of my life and I would never ask him to give
    	up any of his female friends.
    
    
    	So, I guess unless you know for a fact that he is seeing this
    	person for more than just a friendly visit or whatever I 
    	wouldn't jump to any conclusions.  But that's me.
    
    	JJ
    

    RE: Note 959.14 by GRANPA::
    
    .14> ..The old adage, if you love something, set it free, if it comes 
    .14> back, it's yours --- if it doesn't....(?)
       
                  TRY THIS:
    
    o Call the INTERPOL
            or...
    o Scotland Yard
    
    o RCMP 
    
    o Gendarme(rie)
    
    o Securicor
    
    o Savak
    
    o Texas Rangers...
                           OR
    Track it down yourself and....%*#@*?! IT :-!
    

    
    First, I think I have a question....[well I know I have it...
    I just may have missed the answer in here somewhere...]
    
    Did he tell you a lie? Did he, in other words, say he
    was doing "A" when actually he was doing "B"? Or...
    did he just spend some time that he did not tell you about at
    all...nor did you ask...with another woman?
    
    My impression from what I have read is that he just didn't tell
    you anything...not that he lied about his whereabouts and actions.
    
    If my impression is correct...then I have another question:
    
    Do you have an agreement to tell each other everything you do in
    your time that you are not together?
    
    If "No" to question 1 [he didn't lie] and "No" to question 2
    [You have no such agreement]...then I think [totally personal
    opinion...no judgement value]...that you are being pretty
    unreasonable.
    
    If on the other hand, 1 and/or 2 is "Yes"...then I think you
    should *contemplate* raising the issue.  WHY only contemplate?
    Because in my corner of the playground...reading someone else's
    mail [no matter what the circumstances...] is pretty far west
    of center...In my book [and I admit freely that it is a
    book that not many adhere to...] the transgression of
    infringing on another person's right to privacy far out-weighs
    the possibility of this person "cheating"....
    
    If it were me...and I had to raise this issue...I would
    lead into it with something like...
    
    "Gee...I have this need to know what you are doing and with
    whom all the time...I know that is silly, but I need to work
    it through with you...can you help?"
    
    To lots of people, committment does not mean that they
    can never have relationships with other people...perhaps
    he does not realise your concerns in this area?
    
    Mel