Conference quark::human_relations-v1

>I decided that for now, if he is confused and needs to figure this out, 
>I would be willing to date him.  And I would also date other people.  

> I told him...that I wasn't going to hang around forever waiting for his 
> decision.

These two statements seem contradictory and I think betray a subconscious
dilemma you have.  You feel "in control" of your life and you like that.
Statement #1 above is a declaration of your independence and control.

But you don't feel you are as in control of *him* and statement #2 is an 
attempt to impose some sort of control via an ultimatum.  In truth, you
can't control other people.  We all know that, but the realization seems
so much more frightening when it's another person we love.  Relax and 
surrender the need to control him.  You've got far more going for you, as 
far as self-esteem and controlling your own life, than many women do.

> I did admit that I didn't understand how they could just...

Your "understanding" of his relationship with her is irrelevant.

> I believe he is worth working things out with, and waiting for, 
> but I am afraid of being hurt.

Bingo.  No guts, no glory.  Real love is not for the faint of heart.  If it 
doesn't "scare" you a little, you're not reaching high enough.  If you're
that afraid of being hurt, lock your heart away and you never will be.  If
you want love, (with a man who is "worth working thing out with", yet!), you
have no choice but to be vulnerable.  You can't get from him without giving
of yourself.  You can try, but you will always remain "confused" about
it not working.
    

    I am not sure the following will help but my daughter is caught in a
    similar situation.  She is in a relationship with a man who cannot say
    goodbye to an old girlfriend (my daughter & the man are here in Mass
    the girlfriend is in Virginia).  This has been going on for 8 months
    with no end in sight.  He says he loves here but can bring himself to
    end it.
    
    Also, I was dating a man who couldn't either say goodbye to the
    memories of a past relationship and/or his ex-wife.  We had an off
    again on again relationship for 2 years.  Finally the pain it caused me
    was too much and I ended it.  I miss him terribly but the not knowing
    where I stood was too much.
    
    The note from Ciccolini said you are looking for control I don't think
    so, I would say you are looking for a commitment to exploring a future
    for the two of you which can't be done if she is in the picture.
    
    I guess the bottom line is go with your gut feelings and trust your
    instincts, God be with.
    
    Pat
    

    I once dated a man who had been separated from his wife for awhile.
    But the attachment remained-- at her whim.  I could see in him that
    he still loved her.  It was then that I became history.  First of
    all, I would hope that ANY marriage would work-- I'm a romantic
    and believe in "Til Death Do Us Part."  If there was any chance
    of that marriage getting back together, I had no intention of being
    in the middle.  Secondly, any man/woman who is on that
    type of emotional roller coaster cannot dedicate his/her heart 100%
    to the "other" individual.
    
    Whatever happens, I wish you happiness.
    
    B-T-W:  This season-- the holidays, makes people realize what they've
    lost, or they miss what once was.  This could be the case with his
    "ex."  She might miss him now, but when the snow melts and the trees
    are swaying in the breeze, she may have other thoughts!

    
    I see him being confused because he doesn't know who he wants more.
    Which makes it tough for you, because you don't know where you stand.
    My gut says give him a little time to sort things out for himself
    and make a choice, and if he doesn't decide, get on with your life.
    You can't wait forever for someone sitting  on the fence. If he wants
    you, he has to make a clean break with his ex, which might be difficult
    but it would have to be done.
    
    Maybe I'm a hard-nose, but sometimes difficult things just have to
    be done. And whatever the reasons for the problem might be, they
    might not make any difference. Something still has to be done.
    
    Whatever you decide to do, I don't think you should wait too long. I
    don't know how old you are, but whatever, you do have to live your
    life.
    
    ....Bob

    Or perhaps his confussion is more a reaction to your need
    to go slowly.  It's kind of a letdown to not hear "I love
    your" back that first time.  It can't have been easy for
    you to tell him of your fear of commitment--it was perhaps
    even more difficult for him to hear it.  Can hit hard in the
    self-esteem and security areas; could easily make him more
    vulnerable.  Add one ex hitting at just the right time (wow,
    someone who says she wants me!) and there's confusion for
    him and, in turn, for you.
    
    Sounds like the two of you are ready, willing, and able to
    talk to each other though; I think there's a good portion of
    your problem solved right there.  Keep talking and good luck.
    
    Nancy
    
    p.s.  Don't take me wrong--I wasn't trying to throw any blame
          around or make you feel guilty.  I'm all in favor of
          honesty in relationships.  And pain too, if it's honest. 

    Everyone's responses have had some really good points to ponder.
    
    I really wish you luck, and can relate very much to what's happening
    to you.  First and foremost, think of what your firned told you,
    he has told you of his confusion and of his wanting to carry on
    relationships with both you AND the ex, but he hasn't (and probably
    won't) told HER yet.  I call that having his cake and eating it,
    too.  You deserve to have all his love and devotion, not a part-time
    lover.  
    
    Even when you are with him, you will always be wondering on the
    nights you AREN'T with him, "where is he", "what's he up to now",
    "is he with HER", and last but not least, you will question in your
    mind his sincerity.  I mean, all the things he says to you and does
    for you and gets for you, won't you be wondering to yourself, does
    he say/feel/do this for/with HER?
    
    My current boyfriend and I had dated for almost a month when I found
    out he had another woman who he had been dating almost a year. 
    I won't get into the gories (but you can MAIL me if you like), but
    once it came out into the open (the other woman), I told him under
    no uncertain terms would I be "the other woman" in his life, I would
    not compromise my integrity and I deserve the best of him, not just
    1/2 of him.  I ended the relationship, and it was very hard for
    me to do, believe me.  I told him if he broke it off with the other
    woman (whom he professed to love, but could not commit to for various
    reasons, and he had told me that their relationship had deteriorated
    terribly long before we met) I would CONSIDER dating him once again.
    
    It took him exactly three days to do it.  And we've never been stronger
    or happier.  I stuck to my ultimatum.  It wasn't a question of control,
    it was a question of *my* mental health and wanting some type of
    commitment.  If he would not give me what I needed, then I'd move
    on.
    
    Like you, I am used to living my life alone.  And despite the fact
    that my sweetheart remains in my life, and we are committed and
    strong, NEVER again will I allow my life to revolve around another
    person.
    
    Give him time, but please, for your own sake, stay away from him
    until he makes his decision.  I would not sway from mine, and I
    think that's the reason why, when I let him go, he came back.  You
    have the inner strength to stay away from him, I know you do!
    
    Please MAIL me if you need someone to talk to.  And good luck!
    
    Tammi
    

    re .1 -- nice response...
    
    There is however a difference between trying to control another and
    being clear about one's own boundaries.  If the base noter is trying to
    do the latter, and it could sound like an ultimatum, then hse's doing
    what you suggest is important -- taking care of herself.
    
    One thing is clear to me -- he is confused... on the one hand he says
    it could never be the same again, but on the other he goes for the lure
    the first time it's cast in front of him.  The Spoonful had a lyric
    that's appropriate...
    
    "You bet you better finally decide,
    pick just the one and let the other one ride...."
    

    
    AMBIVALENCE:
                Simultaneous liking and disliking of a person or object;
                The conflict caused by an incentive that is at once positive
                and negative.
    
    AUTISTIC THINKING:
                       A form of associative thinking, controlled more by
                       the thinker's needs or desires than by reality.

    No matter what happens you'll be hurt. At least that's been my
    experience with love. The question then becomes whether the high of
    love is worth the crash, or the wait, or the ambivilence, or
    whatever else you have to go through until one or both of you make
    up your minds. I don't know, maybe it's the inevitable pain that
    makes the high so damn addictive.

    As for "hiding your heart away", it rarely works, I know, I tried.
    liesl

    He sounds like he is mixed up and he wants to sort out his feelings
    between you and his ex.  All I can say is if you really love him, take
    the risk of getting hurt and go for it. That is only if you can live
    with him seeing someone else besides you.  If you can't deal with it,
    then there are other fishies in the sea ;-).
    
    good luck!
    
    Lynne

    She said she told him she was willing to see him and date others
    too.  I'm with you, Mike Z, (for once!), that she can't expect commitment
    when she can't give it.  That's where I think the issue of control
    comes in.  She doesn't want to even suggest that she'll be monogamous
    until she's sure she has a commitment from him.  She doesn't want to
    be out of control of the situation, i.e. she doesn't want to leave the 
    ball in his court.  But to me, leaving the ball in his court IS
    having control.  I'd lay my cards on the table, state what I want,
    what I can give, what I'm prepared to do to get it, (this is the
    most important part - will she leave him if she doesn't get it?
    Or will she just sulk and continue on in the confusion), and I'd
    wait to hear his response.  I too suspect he simply wants to have
    2 women.  There are men who find it difficult to surrender sex
    priviledges once they've gotten them.  And let's not discount the
    ego boost of being so "wanted".  And men like that use lots
    of words and "confusion" to buy as much time as they can.  My own
    cynical idea about the outcome of this situation is that he'll
    probably ride the fence until one of the women makes the decision
    for him at which point he'll probably just shrug and say, "Women!"
    and go have a beer.  Reclaim your dignity and either make him prove 
    those words he seems to say so easily, (if you're willing to love
    him back), or do what you said you would do - continue seeing him
    and date others.  In either case, get off his back.

    
    ......in short....I'm in agreement with Lynne......first off....don't
    limit yourself to the reliance of his love_for_you as a crutch on which 
    to live life....there are PLENTY of fun & great fish in the sea.  If
    you believe that and start practicing it, your self-confidence will
    rise to the point that you'll recognize that noone can really change
    another person's mind.  It's obvious that he has some THINGS to work
    out in his mind.....just show him the true *you* and you'll never have
    regrets EITHER way...regardless of how things turn out with THIS guy..
    (it happens to other people too..!)
    
    just a quick $ .02 worth
    
    steve
    

    
    It sounds like this guy wants his cake and to eat it too. Literally,
    don't limit your dating if he won't limit his.  It all boils down to
    the old adage "whats good for the goose is good for the gander".
    
    Debbi

    His ambivalence may have a somewhat different character than has been
    suggested. No matter how painful/messy/welcome the termination of a
    marriage, it seems almost universal that both partners experience at
    least occasional ambivalence about going back. That doesn't mean it
    will happen. Quite possibly he is attracted to the idealised notion of
    a marriage that he once felt part of, and the valuable relationship he
    once had in it. That is quite different from loving the person that his
    ex-spouse really is at present, though the two can get confused
    (especially if there is little contact). If you can let him explore
    this ambivalence (i.e. by contact with the real ex-spouse), he may in
    fact resolve it easily and quickly, and then be ready to move on to a
    real and permanent comittment to you (or someone else). If you try to
    get him to suppress it, it might never get fully resolved.
    
    Of course, this doesn't mean it is risk free, but there is nothing you
    can do about that, as many have said.

    What does he expect to accomplish by dating his ex?  Why does he feel
    that's a good thing to do if he loves you and he doesn't love her?  I
    don't think it's a matter of "he doesn't owe you commitment because
    you're not ready to commit to him."  He's the one who asked for a
    commitment, which should mean that he himself is interested in making a
    commitment.  Granted, it's a scary thing to commit to someone who
    hasn't committed back.  I don't know whether commitment should be done
    on a quid pro quo basis -- "I'll commit to you if you commit to me,
    otherwise no go."  However, if you feel strongly enough that you want
    to be in a committed relationship, chances are you're already
    emotionally committed to that person.  So why has he gone from "I want
    to be committed" to "I want to date someone else"?  I think that can be
    best answered by learning what he expects to accomplish by dating his
    ex -- what's in it for him?

    	Better watch out.  Feel lucky you've only put three(?) months
    	into the relationship.
    
    	I agree with .7 and .11.
    
    	There are many people who will take years to make a hard
    	decision.  All you're asking of him is that he make this
    	decision, or rather not go back on one he's already made.
    	This could go on forever.
    
    	There are many other fish in the sea, as Lynne said.

    It seems to me this guy's ex "suddenly" became interested in him
    again right after you said you weren't able to commit.  Is it
    possible he is exaggerating the scenario to get your attention?
    And if so, didn't it work?
    
    If you really like this guy, tell him.  Tell him you won't share
    him with ANYONE.  And while he is making up his mind.  Leave him
    alone, COMPLETELY.  Only time will tell.