Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    If  a) he won't change
    and b) you can't live with him as he is/acts
    then cut your losses. 
    
    
    PS sounds to me like the changes you want *are* more 
    'character' than 'behavioral'. Behavior *reflects*
    character. 

    
    I thought I replied to this one. It mush have gotten lost......
    
    My reaction is that this person isn't going to change one bit. He might 
    put it on for a little while, but not for any length of time....
    
    I'm not an advocate of divorce/annullment/separation done hastily,
    but here I suspect that staying with him could/would be useless, even
    dangerous. He was given "notice" before hand, and ignored it.
    
    Marrying someone thinking you can change them afterwards will usually
    result in some unpleasant surprises. From what I've heard, this very
    seldom works..........
    
    ....Bob

    Hello,
    
    Without knowing specifically what it is that is bothering you about the
    relationship, I will try to address some thoughts to what appears to be
    the general nature of the relationship. Please do hear my remarks as
    concerned, which I am.
    
    With respect, it sounds to me like you need to be clear first about
    where YOU are at with this relationship.  I just strongly believe that
    if we don't know ourselves first (what makes us "tick", what we need,
    what we want), we can't really know other people. What do you put into
    this relationship? What do you want to get out of it? What about this 
    person attracted you in the first instance? 
    
    Also, you were very young when you started this relationship, and you
    mention that you realized you were "alone" when you broke it off. Have
    you had other close relationships, other than with your husband?  By
    this I mean, have you had the opportunity to get to know other people,
    so that you can form a realistic opinion about the quality of this
    relationship? Does this relationship in some way "protect" you from
    having to go it on you own?
    
    As another replier noted, and I paraphrase losely, you can't change
    someone else.  Many times, we WANT to change someone else, because we
    think/hope/wish it will make the relationship "perfect"...it still
    won't happen.  We can ONLY affect how we ourselves behave, and many
    times we need to get better in touch with why we behave as we do, in
    order to do something constructive about it.
    
    I hope these thoughts provide some food for thought, and help you to
    clarify what you want and where you're going.  Please do keep in touch
    through this file and let us know what's happening.
    
    Regards, 
    Lynn
    

Re .3:

I put everything I had into the relationship.  I spent every spare minute
with him in high school, went to the same college and lived with him after
that.  I never dated anyone other than him.  I guess it was a high school
"crush" that attracted me to him and the things that we have in common
kept us together.  

I believe you are right when you say that this relationship is "protecting"
me from having to go it on your own.

I just don't want to throw away this relationship to later discover that
it was the one that I really needed in the first place.  In other words,
I'm scared that I can't find someone that will have the same interests as
he and I share.  He basically "raised" me, from the age of 16, so we have
many things to share that no one else can relate to.

Thanks for the advice...

    
    re: .4
    
    You never dated anyone but him.......so having a relationship with
    anyone else is a complete unknown, and most people will opt for the
    known bad option rather than something they aren't sure of. 
    
    From reading .0 & .4 I see a number of things which would alarm me
    if I was close to the situation.
    
    Breaking up stinks, too, and I'm not blindingly advocating
    that. I'm just trying to make some observations from what I read.
    Just things to think about. 
    
    ....Bob

    
    Something you said in .4, using the word "raised". It sounds like
    you're looking for parenting in a relationship. I know I was. It didn't
    work. You need to learn to be your own parent, and pick up where your
    parents left off. 
    
    I had a similar experience where I left someone I'd been with for 5
    years, not because she was a bad person, but because I finally got
    honest with myself about our stylistic differences, and how unhappy I
    was about them, despite the fact that for the most part we got along 
    very well, and loved each other a lot. I, too, feared for some future
    point where I'd look back and say to myself that I really blew it and
    I had what I wanted all along, why did I leave?  And here it is a year
    and a half later, and I have someone I've never had before..... ME!
    And I wake up to my aloneness at times and I'm sometimes very scared.
    But I am gaining in strength in ways I never though possible,
    and am learning things about myself I need to know to have better
    relationships. It's not easy, and it's not always fun, but I feel very
    strongly that I'm doing the right thing. 
    
    All I can say to sum it up, is that you deserve to have more of what
    you want in your life than you seem to have now. And you CAN get it.
    Maybe not overnight, maybe not painlessly, but you have choices.
    
    When I was trying to figure out what to do about my dilemma (i.e. stay
    or leave) someone said to me "the worst thing you can do is do nothing"
    
    Hope this helps.
     

Like others have said in here, you can't change someone else and if you
suggest to someone else that they change, they can take the suggestion
and do something about i or accept the consequences that not changing
will bring.  If his treatment of you is bad, then I doubt that you will
look back and think that this was the relationship you needed.  No one
needs to be treated badly and although breaking up any serious 
relationship is difficult, especially one you've been in as long as you
have, putting up with mistreatment is more difficult.  The scars of being
badly treated last longer than the pain of ending a bad relationship.

My exhusband and I had been together since high school and I had known
him almost 15 years when we broke up.  Although I had been treated very
badly throughout the marriage, I wanted it back after we broke up even
though I had initiated the breakup.  In my journal I wrote "I don't want
him back because I love him.  I want him back because he's all I've known."

I don't know *how* badly he's treating you.  I don't know what constitutes
your definition of ill treatment, but if its bad enough for you and you
don't see any of it changing, think seriously how long you want to stay
in this situation.  Try to convey to him just how serious it is.  If the
situation calls for counseling and he's willing to go for it, you may be
able to stick it out if thats what you want to do.  Only you can make that
decision.

You are young, you've been in the relationship a long time and the prospect
of going out on your own can be very scary.  But you can be successful on
your own and you can learn who you are and what you want and eventually find
yourself in another relationship where you are treated well.  

Weigh all the factors and come to your decision.  Not one designed to please
family, friends, hubby.  One designed for you to live with.

Good luck.

    Don't know if this is universal, but I seen it often enough and had
    other report it often enough to begin to think it's pretty common.
    
    There's something about the act of marrying that some participants seem
    to reframe things afterwards... and what was an act of accepting the
    other as wholly who they are becomes the right to demand that they
    change in some way. (This may really get me in hot water... but...) It
    has been my experience, that some women have been educated that the way
    relationship works is that when you have the ring, you can start the
    renovations and straighten the guy out.
    
    If this is your case, an anullment will be doing him a favor... cuz if
    you fail in your change project, you'll be miserable and end up taking
    it out on him; and if you suceed, he'll have turned out to be a wimp
    and you'll be disappointed... and take it out on him... and the process
    of trying won't be very pleasant for either of you.
    
    ... so you might go ahead and do it.. it can't be more expensive than a
    divorce... and it might save you both a lot of pain.
    
    R.
    

RE:  0

I haven't read all the other replies.  They may have given you some great
advice, but as Steve's banner points out, "free advice is worth every cent."

My gut feeling is, who do you think you are trying to make someone over??  You
have no right to put expectations on him and expect him to adapt to your whims.
If you think he's a jerk, then find your prince somewhere else.  Are you so
lonely that you feel he's "CLOSE ENOUGH" but doesn't quite make it, and rather
than move on, you're afraid of being single or lonely, so instead you're going
to try and "WHIP" this guy into shape????

Like Rocky said to Adrian, "We can't change who we really are.  I can't change,
you can't change.  I'm a fighter, Adrian.  That's what you married."

-dwight

    There are several "red flags" in your notes. I recognize several
    that used to part of my world. I to went out with the same person
    for 6 years, 15-21, got married and then opened my eyes 2 years
    later to what I really needed from a relationship. I couldn't agree
    more with the reply's about people staying in bad relationships because
    they feel better that the prospect of no relationship. The relationship
    I was in was not abusive but it was not healthy for me. Over the
    past couple of years since I've been on my own, I've realized how
    much I needed to learn to be own my own. Rather than dedicating all
    my energies and time on another person, I reserve a lot of that time
    for myself. It may be hard for you to understand, but you do need
    to learn who you are, as an individual, not as an extension of someone
    else.
    
    If you feel that this is an abusive relationship, be it physical
    and/or mental, you can do better. It is can be scary to make the
    break, but you'll be amazed on how much the quality of your life can 
    improve once you decide to do what you need to do to make yourself happy.
    You may also be suprised how good a healthy realtionship can make
    you feel.
    
    Gail
    

    
    
    
                        Yeah,.sure.....
    
    
                                But EVERBODY does change over time.
           It is inevitable.  You can't stop it and you can't even slow
           it down.  All you can do is try to change together and in
           the same direction.  Learning from each other's accomplishments
           and mistakes.
    
                        Growing with and towards one another.  There
           is nothing wrong with finding some dislikes in your mate.
           And nothing wrong with wanting him/her to change thier ways.
    
                        The key is to have enough love, understanding
           and patience to help each other to become better....for the
           both of you.
    
                        I've heard alot of discussion about these
           "soulmates" and I don't believe it's true.  Being married
           and staying married takes alot of effort and giving in to
           each other's,  sometimes difficult, will and/or point of view.
    
                        If you feel he's worth it and he is ready to
           work as hard as you at it,  stick it out.  It WILL get better
           over time.
    
                        If the majority of effort is coming from only
           one of the two,  I think it's time to jump ship.
    
    
                                           Good luck,
    
    
                                                      Chris
                          

    First suggestion - go and talk with EAP about your concerns and
    your options.
    
    Second suggestion - contact your nearest military post for whichever
    branch of the service your husband is in and talk with the chaplain.
    (Even if you are not religious.  The chaplain corps is there to
    help straighten out problems of whatever sort, and will direct you
    to the correct individuals for the aid you need.)
    
    My ex had one unaccompanied tour while we were married.  It was
    the most difficult time I have ever had, and I cannot imagine going
    through it as a newlywed.  Given your doubts about the relationship,
    I would *not* go over to live off-post right now.  Instead, use
    this as an opportunity to discover your own strength, for whatever
    comes later.  I also (personally) would not initiate an annulment or 
    divorce until he is back in-country.  You have been given a gift
    of time to work on the issues, whatever they are.
    
    Feel free to contact me through mail if you like.
    
    Alison

    
    re .12
    
    I agree that people do change in a lot of cases.....and that a
    relationship can be difficult to maintain.....I've been married
    for 27 years and still struggle with some things. But I see some
    basic flaws here, and somewhere I see the definite possibility of
    physical danger in there somewhere......and is it really worth trying
    to hold onto something which seemed to get worse, not better. Seems
    like he thought getting married gave him a license to be more abusive.
    
    There are too many stories about situations like this gettind worse
    rather than better.
    
    Obviously no-one here can direct what you do, that all we can make
    are observations, but I personally see too many (someone had the
    right word) flags in there......
    
    ....Bob
    

    Hello again,
    
    A few more thoughts:
    
    As some others have noted, I'd feel more comfortable knowing what
    constitutes "ill treatment", at least in some relative terms.  In my
    experience, people can regard things like sarcastic humor as ill
    treatment; or people can regard physical abuse as ill treatment-
    there's such a wide range possible.  Can you share with us something
    about where your situation fits?  
    
    If it's physical abuse we're discussing, whether of the "beating"
    variety or of the "occasional slap when he's drunk" variety, my best
    recommendation is to stay away from him.  If he shows no indication of
    wanting to change his behavior, the odds are overwhelmingly on the side
    of "it will only get worse."
    
    Re: .4
    >I'm scared that I can't find someone that will have the same interests
    >as he and I share
    
    Yeah, it is scary to contemplate sometimes, and there are no
    guarantees.  In all reality, you probably will be able to find several 
    "someones" with whom you share various interests, and none (either
    persons or relationships) will be JUST like what you share with your 
    husband, because they aren't your husband.  
    
    As several people have replied, you need to focus on yourself and what 
    you want out of the relationship...rather than focusing on "what am I 
    going to lose that I maybe won't be able to re-create". You really need
    to get a handle on where YOU are at, in order to help you make the best
    decisions about your relationship.  .8 said this very well: weigh all
    the factors and come to your decision, one designed for you to live
    with. Someone else suggested the EAP program; DO get some first-hand
    help with sorting this out.  As much as we all care about what's
    happening, we can only give you some pointers and suggestions, and it's
    a very complex problem you're dealing with.
    
    On a similar side of this issue, do you have other personal support
    systems that you can rely on, such as parents, siblings, etc.?  How do
    they all feel about this?  Are you getting pressure from them that is
    compounding your conflict? 
    
    BTW, please feel free to contact me at CURIE::HAROUTIAN if you think it
    would help.
    
    Keep in touch.
    
    Regards, 
    Lynn 
    

    I've read the responses and there are some things that I would like to
    point out.
    
    First, I don't want him to turn into a "wimp" or "whip" him into shape.
    Those are not my intentions at all.  When I broke up with him before
    the wedding, we talked a lot about how he has treated me over the years. 
    It took for him to be gone a long time (at boot camp and training) to 
    discover that something was wrong.  I built up a strength in being
    alone and I looked "in" on our relationship because we were separated. 
    I had never been apart from him that long.  When I finally got the
    courage to tell him, I was stronger than I had ever been with him. 
    But, when I saw him, I fell into the submissive role that I had always
    played before.  I agreed at that point to marry him again.  Now that he
    is away again, I feel the "invisible hand around my throat" release and
    my strength is returning.  On the other hand, I feel weaker than ever
    because I don't want to make my marriage work.
    
    Second, the "abuse" talked about in some of the responses was, in the
    past, physical.  He has promised never to do that again.  But more than
    the physical abuse, it's the verbal.  He can twist any situation into
    it being my fault.  I *never* win an argument.  When he came back, we
    talked about this and he agreed to try and discuss things more and not
    to put the blame on me all of the time.  When we got married, he said
    that there was nothing wrong with the way I was being treated.
    
    All of this put aside, I do love him and will forever.  He has told me
    that no one would ever love me more than he does or treat me as well as
    he does. I almost believe that, just because I'm scared to leave him.
    
    Thanks for all of the advice.
    

    re:  .16

    One suggestion to look into is reading "MEN WHO HATE WOMEN, AND
    THE WOMEN WHO LOVE THEM".  It is in paperback and has been out
    awhile.  It might shed some further light onto the subject you
    are wrestling with right now in your life.  

    justme....jacqui

    The most important thing you need to talk about with him is why
    your needs and concerns are of no concern to him.  It doesn't matter
    whether or not he *tells* you you are being treated fairly.  If
    you don't feel like you are, *that's* the issue.  You need to find
    out why he brushes you off so easily *and*, more important, why
    you will "love forever" a man who doesn't appear to care much about
    your feelings.   You sound frightfully dependent and if nothing
    else, I would suspect he knows durn well you're not going anywhere
    no matter what he does.
    
    Thank heaven for the distance forced upon you.  Don't be afraid
    of the feelings of strength you feel in his absence because only
    that strength will get you what you want - the strength to believe
    you have a right to fair treatment, the strength to insist upon
    it and the strength to walk away if you don't get it.  The alternative
    is way too depressing to even think about.  You cannot love if you're
    too busy needing.  The only feelings neediness gives you are panic
    and fear punctuated by a quiet tension.  Love is many things, but it 
    isn't that!
    
    Now - see what's happening around town, call a friend and go out.  Get 
    some sense of what it's like to have a life of your own - something 
    satisfying and worthwhile which you can then share with someone
    deservingwhich, I'm sure you will have no problem attracting if
    you have a satisfying and worthwhile life.  You say you don't want
    a wimp or to whip him into shape.  Do you think he really wants
    someone docile and submissive he can talk circles around and who
    will not only accept poor treatment but reward it with "love"?

    re: .16
    
��                               On the other hand, I feel weaker than ever
��    because I don't want to make my marriage work.
    
    
    If you don't want to make the marriage work, maybe you don't want to
    be there at all. You need to make a decision and a commitment to either 
    make it work or let it go. If you decide to try and make it work, get 
    some counseling (EAP is a good start) on how to approach that. 
    
    If you don't want to make it work - get out of there. If you don't want
    to make it work now, you'll never want to make it work. 
    
    There is NO excuse for physical or emotional abuse and it doesn't
    matter how much you love a person - you're worth more than that and
    yes, there are people who would cherish you without abuse.
    
    

    
    I've heard, and it makes sense, that wives (and I assume it applies
    to others, too) who have been abused have VERY low self-esteem, and I
    see something like that there. It looks like you need to build that
    up, so that you can either bail out, if that's what has to be done,
    or stand up to him. If you stay, you have to stand up to him. If you
    don't, the whole self-esteem/abuse cycle will start again, and he won't
    be out of the country to give you a break. If you stand up to him, what
    he turns into will be his problem, because you'll know that you can
    handle your life by yourself if you have too. Be ready to back up
    anything you say....
    
    ....Bob

I found that I am unable to forward mail messages to the author of the base
note.  If you really need to contact the author privately, send me mail and
I'll try to put you in touch - otherwise please respond here.

				Steve

>                    <<< Note 930.18 by GEMVAX::CICCOLINI >>>

	 Definitely!!!

	 
�    You sound frightfully dependent and if nothing
�    else, I would suspect he knows durn well you're not going anywhere
�    no matter what he does.


	 It sounds to me as if he's very secure in the belief that the
	 basenoter isn't 'going anywhere' because she only knows him
	 and relationships by his rules.

	 I've found that it is extremely important for me to set my
	 own boundaries for relationships and define my own needs.
	 
�   You cannot love if you're too busy needing.  

	 One thing I try to liken it to for my own benefit, is like
	 tying pillows to your chest, your arms, your thighs, and
	 having your partner doing the same.......and trying to hug
	 that person.....it's virtually impossible to get a good
	 strong hug in.

	 The pillows are my needs and my other problems...and they just
	 get in the way of the real loving.

         Also, I find my needs to be things that I need from *myself*,
         not from another (though they may often come disguised that
         way).  It's important for me to really define what my needs
         really are in order to understand what kind of person can
         fulfill those needs.  The way I see it, understanding your
         needs and desires as an individual are prerequisites to any
         successful relationship.



	 I agree with Sandy's suggestions as well as those to seek
	 counseling.  


	 kath

    If you are not happy the way things are going and your husband does not
    want to try to help mend the marriage, you should bail out.  It is your
    life and why lead a miserable life with someone that is going to make
    you unhappy.  It is better to break up before you have children if you
    are unhappy, because it is the children that suffer the most when they
    come from an unhappy, broken home.
    
    good luck with your descision.
    
    Lynne

    I would like to say some things to the base noter from a practical
    point of view.  First of all, *DO NOT JOIN YOUR HUSBAND*.  Now, I am
    not passing advice on the state of your marraige.  But I am a military
    wife and the last thing you need is to be in a foriegn country with no
    command sponsorship.  If you join him on an unaccompanied tour, the
    command at the duty station will not sponsor you.  That means you have
    no rights/priviledges/protection from the U.S. Army.  This is a
    terribly vunerable position to be in, because you will have no recourse
    if things go bad.  If you get there, bag and baggage in hand and in a
    year decide to come home, you will pay for your own ticket and pay to
    ship your goods home.  The Army won't assist you IN ANY WAY!!  I can't
    stress enough the danger this puts you in.  And if, God forbis, your
    husband becomes abusive or dangerous while you are there, you will be
    at the mercy of the local courts, police, etc...  And many cultures
    take spousal abuse less seriously than we do.
    
    I feel that you don't want to be married to this man any more, and
    while he is away you have a good oportunity to disolve your marraige if
    that is what you want.  But if you are there in country with him, you
    won't have such an oppoortunity.  If he has your passport, you are
    almost his prisoner!!
    
    
    My husband is in a unit which takes him away from home about half the
    year.  I personally wouldn't have it any other way.  We are two
    distinctly different people with very different styles.  Our
    seperate identities are well served with some time away from each
    other.  Of course it has it's drawbacks, but the benefits are well
    worth it.  I add this as a statement to other women whose current mates
    or future mates travel a lot.  The seperation can be treated as a good
    thing, like we do.  It allows me to not feel smothered and a little
    threatened by the attention that Ken gives when he is around.  He is
    the type who would, if given the chance, surgically attach himself to
    me.  I prefer some space, and I don't feel like I have to spend every
    minute with him.  He needs the attention and closeness when he is
    around, and I can give it to him because 1) he is only home for a few
    weeks, or a month at the most at any one time, and 2) just about the
    time he is driving me batty, he leaves for a month.  
    
    So  you see, distance is often the glue which holds things together. 
    But, base-noter, in your case it seems that it will work to your
    advantage in another way.  You can use it to re-evaluate yourself, your
    marraige, your husband.....  and make some "un-baised" decisions.  With
    him across the world, he won't be able to influence you in how you
    decide.  
    
    
    Good luck and keep us posted. 
    
    Sue 
    
    P.S  The suggestion about seeing EAP is really a good one, you may need
    some help in putting some "SELF" back into your "SELF-ESTEEM"!!!
    mates

    Just a few words to the base noter. 
    
    It has been suggested by a few to take advantage of EAP. I think this is 
    the best advise going in this note.  Some of the responses have a sense
    about them of wanting to fix you and your problem. From my experience,
    THEY CAN`T.	I read something once that has stuck with me over the
    years, If you want things in your life to be better, then YOU must get
    better. The position you are in is neither right nor wrong. You are
    there because of who you are and what your experiences in life have
    been.  
    To change the situation, you will have to look at youself and
    understand what the good reasons are, that brought you to this point 
    in your life. If you choose not to understand these reasons, I think it
    a good possibility you will end up with someone else similar to who you 
    are with now. 
    
    The best possible scenario would be for both of you to learn and grow
    together. You were both attracted to each other for some very good
    reasons. If you can understand those reasons together, then both of you
    win. If neither chooses to understand these reasons, in my opinion you
    will both loose. Since you really have no control over your husband, my 
    encouragement for you would be to at least takecare of yourself.  
    
    Talk to some of the people at EAP. You may find it not worthwhile, but
    you might find it to be the best investment in time that you will ever
    make. I think you will find the latter to be true. At any rate, I wish
    you the best in all that life has to offer. 
    
    		Ken