Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    Wife and daughters.
    
    The Doctah

    Every few years, the husband, wife and daughters should all spend
    Christmas day with the husband's sisters instead of the wife's family.
    
    Mr. Manners

    WHy don't you stay home with your wife and daughters and invite your
    sister(s) and in-laws to YOUR house? Seems like the optimum plan to me.
    
    Debbie
    

    I agree with .2, switching off every few years seems fair.  I think
    that regardless of where the day is spent the husband, his wife and 
    his daughters should be together. 
    
    
    Mary 

    
    I agree with the previous... invite them over to YOUR house.
    
    Melanie

    My question is.....do the sisters ever invite the brother AND his
    wife and daughters?  Maybe you could take turns with both families.
    If alternate years don't work, how about half-day here and half-day
    there.  Otherwise, I agree with the others, invite everyone to YOUR
    house and if someone decides not to show up, then it's THEIR PROBLEM.
    

    
    
    
                      Depending on the distance between locales, it
            might be good to spend Christmas Eve at one place and
            Christmas Day at the other.  This is my situation every
            year for some 12 years now.  Works pretty good for me.
                      Wherever you go, by all means have your wife
            and children with you!!
    
                                               Merry Christmas
    
    
                                                      Chris D.   
                      

	 I know this sounds awful.....but...


	 I would spend Christmas where *I* wanted to.  (Even if that
	 means staying home and not visiting anyone).

	 I really rebell when I get pushed into feeling I'm
	 *obligated* to do something.

	 Do what you want to do.........

	 kath

    
    
    Why do you feel that sounds "awful", Kath?  It's really the
    best opinion yet!
    
    Deb
    

    
    
>    Why do you feel that sounds "awful", Kath?  It's really the
>    best opinion yet!


	 Because many people get bent totally out of shape when you
	 tell them that you're not coming to visit them for the
	 holidays.  They almost think it's mandatory that you visit
	 them at that time.  Especially parents.  I mentioned to my
	 parents this year that I might not be spending Thanksgiving
	 and/or Christmas with them and they went off the wall.....you
	 know, trying to give me a guilt complex about it.

	 Thank God, it ended up that I could spend both with them....
	 Otherwise, I would never have heard the end of it.  But, if
	 my plans for Thanksgiving and Christmas had gone thru, I
	 would have NOT given into my parents.

	 Those are MY holidays, and this is MY life.  I should enjoy
	 them the way I want to......

	 The guilt trips people like to put others on are ridiculous,
	 in my book. And I won't succumb to them.  And I don't need to
	 feel obligated to make someone else's life happy at the risk
	 of my happiness.

	 kath

    Boy, Kath, that sounds pretty hateful.  "My" holidays, "my" life.
    I personally feel the same way but I temper my feelings by thinking
    of my parents and how much it means to them, (to most parents),
    to have their children with them.  When I was little, they didn't
    say, "my" holidays, "my" life, to me.  I wouldn't *have* any holidays
    or life if it weren't for them.  But then I also enjoy the hell
    out of Xmas at my parents' house.  It's a big, happy blast.
    
    To the basenote author, (and as an Italian I know that "family"
    thing, very well!), I don't see why you should feel obligated to do
    all the visiting.  Visit one year, (with your wife and daughters), 
    invite the next and if they decline, let them.  You are not solely
    responsible for maintaining familial ties.  Don't be guilt-tripped.
                                                               

>    Boy, Kath, that sounds pretty hateful.

         Touch�, Sandy.....  When I'm talking about my experiences and
         relating them to my life (and not talking about anyone else
         and not projecting it outwards onto innocent others) I can be
         as hateful as I want, can't I? 
	 
>"My" holidays, "my" life.
>    I personally feel the same way but I temper my feelings by thinking
>    of my parents and how much it means to them, (to most parents),
>    to have their children with them.

	 your family is not my family..and you cannot understand the
	 goings on herein.

	 I am not comfortable at my parents house, they nag me, they
	 20 question me, they try to push me into things I don't want.
	 But if I don't go, I get the guilt trip laid on me.

         That is why, if I will be happy with other plans, then I do
         them.  It's important, first and foremost, for me to be
         happy (and I'm very bullheaded about being forced into
	 anything).  I've been through so many years of not being
         happy...of being forced.....*I* deserve what I want.


	 Anyway, the point is the author should do what they are going
	 to be happy with....not what they can do to make someone else
	 happy...at the expense of their own happiness.  Wherever that
	 happiness might lie.

	 kath


	 

    re:base noter
    
    	I go through this every Christmas. My mother-in-law has had her 5
    chicks parade to her house evry single Christmas morning for their
    entire lives. The last 15 have involved me and my family. It has been
    increasingly more difficult for me each year because we (my family) has
    no tradition to fall back on for the future. When my in-laws are gone,
    my family will be too! 
    	On the other hand, my mother, brother, and sister would like to
    spend the day with us also. Every other year my brother and his family
    spend the holidays in Las Vegas with his in-laws. 
    	When I lived in Maine with them it was easy. We'd spend Christmas
    eve with my family and half of Christmas Day with my wife's. When we
    moved to central Mass. we would go to Maine on Christmas Eve and visit
    everyone, at the cost of our Christmas. One Christmas eve was spent in
    a pizza palor because of a snow storm and a mix up in plans. The same
    things began to occur after moving to NH. 
    	This year I put my foot down and told my wife that our kids are
    getting older and *I* want them to be able to enjoy what I get them at
    the time they open them. My children are 14,10,6 and there aren't many
    Santa years left. 
    	So, this year we're spending Christmas eve and Christmas morning at
    home. We'll go to Maine at midday, visit my family at my brother's and
    spend the evening at my in-laws. They're not too happy about it, but I
    am.
    
    Marry Christmas and Good Luck
    
    Ken

    Hateful is the wrong word, it is selfishness that makes people
    put their needs above everyone, at all costs. I disagree with this
    attitude. I feel that with this issue, there is room for compromise.
    The holiday season means different things to different people. Often
    it holds special meaning for parents. It may very well be a
    slap in the face for some parents if their children don't come home.
    I am not recommending dropping all your plans for the sake of their
    request, but this is a time for giving, and there is nothing more
    precious than giving your time. 
    
    Gail

>          <<< Note 922.16 by XCUSME::KOSKI "This ::NOTE is for you" >>>

>    Hateful is the wrong word, it is selfishness that makes people
>    put their needs above everyone, at all costs. I disagree with this

	 Gail....

	 isn't it also selfish to coerce your family into visiting you
	 on Christmas thru pouting, guilt trips, etc.


	 isn't it also selfish to try to force someone to do something
	 they don't want to do just because you want it?


	 Am I really being THAT selfish by wanting to do what *I* want
	 to do once in awhile...with MY vacations?



	 It's not like they don't see me at least once a month....


	 At the moment, I'm getting the guilt trip laid on me by my
	 mother because I told her I didn't want to spend
	 Saturday-Monday at their house....but rather just Sunday
	 evening-Monday.  Is that selfish of me?

	 Gail....I don't think you understand the situation here.....a
	 situation that MANY people get pushed into.  *Who* is really
	 being selfish? Don't I, by right of being alive, and
	 working on my own, and being an adult, have the right to do
	 with my vacations as I see fit?

	 Yes, I can see how you would call it selfishness on my part,
	 but I would also call it selfishness and manipulative on the
	 part of my family.


	 Do you see the two sides of the street, Gail?

	 kath

    RE: .0
    
    I'm still wondering what the issue is here. The man is married
    and has children...why would there be a question as to where
    he is going to be ??
    
    If his sisters are important to him, invite them over or
    go visit them as a family.
    
    I still can't figure out why there has to be a choice made
    between sister's or wife & children...doesn't make sense to me
    maybe because I'm single I can't understand  :-)
    
    christopher

    
    Boy am I lucky. My parents and in-laws have never made
    my husband or I feel guilty - ever!  We usually switch off 
    holidays between both families - Thanksgiving with 
    one family, Christmas with another. This year we are have
    Saturday lunch with my family, and then travel Sunday
    to my in-laws. 
    
    In past years, we have gone to Virginia Beach visiting 
    his brother and sisters, Disney world (grandparents winter
    there) etc.  Each year is spent differently and is always
    a treat for us and the people we visit. When you get locked
    into something year after year, families find it difficult
    to try something new. 
    
    Just remember, Christmas is a SEASON and SPIRIT, not just 
    one day to madly run amok from one place to another. You 
    can celebrate exchanging gifts and visits throughout the 
    season. (My mother taught me this, and what good advice it is.)
    
    
    
    

    re Kath
    
    I entered my comment not for the sake of arguing your stance Kath,
    but rather it was a broader commentary related the to the previous
    remark about hatred/selfishness. 
    
    Of course only you can evaluate your situation and its history.
    I just felt based on the few lines I read, that in essence read,
    "I'm going to do what I want for the holiday". read rather callous
    out of context. And yes you have a point regarding manipulative
    relatives, it is selfish of them not to consider your situation
    treating you in a manner more appropriate for a child. 
    
    Gail
    

    
          <<< Note 922.20 by XCUSME::KOSKI "This ::NOTE is for you" >>>
    
    >    treating you in a manner more appropriate for a child.
    
    Why should children be treated is such a manner??
    Bo

>Why should children be treated is such a manner??

    Children need adult guidance, ie told what to do. Adults should
    have the luxury of making up their own minds.

    
    
    With the exception of life-threatening situations, children
    do not benefit by being "told what to do."  Adult guidance
    IS necessary.  Guidance, not directives and commands. And
    manipulative, guilt-producing behavior is never appropriate
    when parenting children (it's not real appropriate when re-
    lating to adults, either).
    
    Deb
    

    
    Isn't there an adage about not judging someone unless you've walked a
    mile in their shoes?
    
    For those people who grew up in normal, loving families I am sure
    Kathy's reaction sounds harsh.... but if you grew up with situations
    such as she describes, or those which *I* can imagine, it would seem
    masochistic to want to do other than avoid it...
    
    It is not selfish to put your own wellbeing high up on the hierarchy.

    My $.02- Christmas eve is for the family-at-large: hubby's "side",
    which numbers about 50 close relatives.  Christmas day is for each
    family to have with it's own, i.e. myself, hubby, son, cats.  Keep
    inviting the two widow-ladies, if you want to include them, but don't
    expect to change their behavior, only they can do that.
    Regards,
    Lynn

    re: .24
    
    Well said, Lin!

    For those who have never been married, it's difficult to fathom this
    problem. Christmas is 'normally' spent with that person's family and
    all of this bickering is totally foreign.
    
    For those who are married w/o children, this is fairly easy to solve
    because agreements to visit alternating families on alternating
    holidays is an answer, or, living close to relatives means being able
    to possibly visit both. Still this bickering is somewhat foreign.
    
    For married couples with children it gets sticky, especially if there
    are two sets of adoring grandparents 8^). Competition for time becomes
    a reality and feelings get hurt. You always try to make everyone else's
    Christmas happy, even at the expense of your own family's. Ever hear a
    mother cry on Christmas because you couldn't be to her house at the
    crack of dawn with your kids?? Ever hear a grandmother cry because her
    kids are all grown up and she wants to have little ones (yours)
    squealing with happiness as the sun rises in Britain (your in Maine)??
    
    What happens when your children are 16-19 and you've spent their entire
    childhood running to the Grandparents' who are now gone??? They have no
    sense of tradition, of family at Christmas. They've never had the
    experience of spending a day at home with mom and dad playing with toys
    and building things and enjoying a special day together. They, in turn,
    can't pass that on to their own children......
    
    Kathy makes a very valid point. If a day and half isn't enough for mom
    and dad, that's tough!! Time for them to recognize that she also has
    needs that have to be met and if that means coming east to parties 8^)
    or going skiing, or just being by herself then they should have respect 
    for her needs and not pressure her to fulfill theirs.
    
    Ken 

    
    re: .27
    
    The previous reply mentioned something about not being able to fathom
    this problem if you aren't married.  I am single, yet I can identify
    completely--although for me it isn't a question of which family to
    spend a holiday with, but where to spend the holiday, period.
    
    I live close enough to my parents (220 miles) that I can, and do,
    visit them for the weekend fairly regularly.  So for me when holidays
    such as Thanksgiving or Christmas come around which are longer than
    just two days, I usually see it as an opportunity to go somewhere to
    visit friends who live too far away to visit in a regular 2-day
    weekend.  However, my family doesn't understand this at all.  They
    choose instead to take it as a personal affront--that Laurie "doesn't
    want to be with them", instead of trying to understand it as a matter
    of practicality.  (I don't like to spend $300 for a plane ticket 
    across the country just to get back on the plane and come home the
    minute I get there--so the extra day or two is nice.)
    
    I believe that since I make it a point to visit home regularly
    anyway, and on MOST holidays, no one should hold it against me if
    I decide to go elsewhere once in awhile.  
    
    I suppose someday when I have children I *might* be able to under-
    stand this intense need to ALWAYS have your children around you--
    but to be honest, I hope I never do.  I hope I am able to build
    enough of a life *independent* of my children that I am able to 
    enjoy a holiday even if they choose not to spend it with me ...
    
    Laurie