Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    I just discovered recently that "time to breathe" is important.
     As well as time to follow fancy and indulge in whims.  I'm going
    to start taking a course a semester this spring, and I know I'll
    have to put SOME things aside, but it is comforting to know there
    should be no fear of failure, and no tremendous pressure and lack
    of sleep (as if I were indeed a full-time student).  I'd take the
    extra time, if I were you.  Of course, when you're driven, you're
    driven...so you obviously have your reasons for breking on through
    to the other side, so to speak...
    
    Maybe its like medicine, the quicker you swallow, teh less painful
    it is?  But if that's the story, you're just going to go to grad
    school and start the cycle again...
    
    Maybe you can try a two-course semester, break in the summer with
    a single course, and then smash on in with two courses in the fall?
    
    Whatever you decide, good luck, and hang tough...
    
    -Jody
    

    Well Gale it's time to prioritize. It's good to see you've spent
    the effort to write out the issues for both sides. 
    
    A couple of the issues you mentioned I saw a bit differently:
    
>    My girls will see me more at home, and not have to compete with a male
>    in my life.

    They'll see you, yes, but will you have time to interact with them?
    Doesn't sound like it. I've always gotten the impression you value
    the time you spend with your children (don't all parents). A year
    away from being involved with your children is a year you can never
    make up.  
    
    
>   The degree might open up some work avenues that have been closed to me.

    Working for the same company I do?! Realistically speaking, that
    has little effect on job hunting within Digital. Outside? Maybe
    a different story. 

    
    Personally I would not put my happiness "on hold" for something
    that can be completed at a more leisurely pace. I equate your "putting
    your life on hold" with putting your happiness on hold. Granted
    sacrifices need to be made to achieve goals. But I think with education
    those sacrifices are made with any work load.  But if you think
    the rewards of that education are more important to you than the
    time you will be loosing for yourself and your family than the
    education will be the right choice for you. As I see it, you are
    not the only one being impacted by this choice.
    
    Gail
    

    

    Gale-
    
    I personally would not commit to such a schedule. I would think that a
    two course semester for the spring is a reasonable goal. But not for a
    string of semesters in a row. One of my buddies is trying to get his
    masters in EE- he is married but no kids, and he has a very tough time
    taking two courses in a semester. Now maybe the courses you are taking
    aren't as demanding, or you are better able to deal with the realities
    of a dual course load. I think two courses per semester is terribly
    ambitious (_especially_ with kids). This doesn't mean it isn't doable.
    (Technical term, of course. :-)
    
    I would think that trying a dual course load would go a long way
    towards telling you if you can sustain that pace until you get your
    degree. And jody's advice is very sound- you NEED breathing time.
    
    Good luck, whatever you decide.
    
    The Doctah

    Might be good for your girls...including the example?

    Hi Gale,
    I did a very similar thing.  Three years ago, I decided to get a
    graduate certificate in software technical writing so I could get a
    better job.  It was a 9 month (3 semester) program at Northeastern. 
    Two classes per semester (one in computers and one in writing), meeting
    3 times a week.
    
    o  I worked 40+ hours a week, 9-5:45, at a stressful job in Boston
    	(publicity administrator for a high-tech advertising agency).
    o  Hopped the green-line T at 5:50 and grabbed a bag of popcorn for
        dinner on Mon, Tues, Thurs.
    o  Sat in class from 6-8 those days, then worked out at health club
        from 8:30-9:30.  
    o  Took T home and did chores, paid bills, and started homework.
    
    Wednesdays evening and all day Saturday and Sunday, I studied, did
    programming, did research, and WROTE.  Most of that I had to go to
    campus for, because I didn't have a computer at home.  Fridays I kept
    for myself.  Sundays I rehearsed with a semi-pro singing group.
    
    It was very busy.  I lost one friendship.  (I made another.)  I had no
    time for romance.  But I also felt more alive, charged up, and
    productive than at any other time in my life -- it was a complete
    stretch of my abilities and I came through!  I pulled out of that time
    with a better understanding of what I can do. 
    
    You have children, which makes all this more complicated.  (I don't.) 
    From my experience, being at home doesn't mean you'll see them more. 
    You might want to ask them what they would advise you to do.  If you
    have untapped reserves of energy and respond well to pressure, you may
    find this exciting, challenging, rewarding.  If you are already
    stretched to the limit, this may be unbearable.  
    
    Best of luck with your decision -- I liked the suggestion to do 2-1-2-1
    as an alternative, if it's possible.  Remember to save out some time
    for vegging.
    
    Pam

    When I was a kid, my parents both went to school in the evenings. While
    I haven't had to juggle all that myself, I've seen it done from fairly
    much the viewpoint of your daughters. 
    
    I think that one of the dangers of taking a double load is burnout.
    Meaning specifically that you may end up deciding that that doctorate
    just isn't worth it.  This isn't necessarily bad -- deciding the extra
    piece of paper isn't worth it -- I'm simply saying that it could
    happen.
    
    You may also simply resolve to never, never, never take a double course
    load again. The latter happened to my mother. She took a double course
    load and claims nowadays that she can't remember much of anything that
    happened in either of the courses she took. If you're after an
    education (as opposed to a degree), then this is another risk. You risk
    simply going through the courses, instead of learning something.
    
    When I was in college, I was strapped for money and also had an
    aversion to loans. So I got my degree in three years, grinding off a
    wee bit of my nose in the process. One of the side-effects of that was
    that once I had my degree, I pretty much decided that I'd had enough of
    school and would take a breather for a while in the working world
    before I went off for my doctorate. That was in May, 1980, and I'm
    still taking that breather.
    
    	Jon

I can only address this from my own personal perspective that may
--or may not-- match yours. I also was going to night school to get
a BSEE, and (due to some drive I can't really explain) wound up
doing the graduate degree in CS (all but the thesis) in parallel. 

I went to school every evening of the week. I studied at home every 
night of the week. I was at work, using the computer, every blessed 
week end. My goal was straight A grades throughout school, and I 
worked accordingly. For four years.

I, too, worked a more than full time job (I was managing fairly
involved R&D projects). I, too, had two girls at home. The only
slight difference was, I also had an understanding wife, who quietly
did her level best to help (even though she, too, worked full time
and went to school). 

It wasn't easy, for all the reasons correctly tabulated in ,0. The
only 'plus' I could see was the satisfaction of my driving ambition
and the  g r e a t  feeling I had when I was done. 

To me, it all boils down to the balance between the hard, hard work
and the final accomplishment. One has to come to grips with the
issue of one's willingness (or lack of it) to pay the price. I don't
think anyone here can contribute much to the answer. It's all
between you and yourself. 

One thing, though: if you have any doubts as to whether you will 
succeed, DO NOT DO IT. Failure is bad for us. It's better to go 
slow, but get there.

Whatever you choose, I wish you the best of luck.

-- Ron

    Gail -
    
    Your daughters are teens.  Have you sought their input?  While you
    may be 'at home', as another has stated, you may not be as 'available'.
     How will this impact them?  How will they view it?  If a crisis
    erupts in their lives, will you have any time available to help
    them?  What are their goals and needs for the year that you will
    be consumed by school?  Will you be able to help them as much as
    you and they feel is appropriate?
    
    Alison

    Tonight is my last night of class (YAHOOOOOOOOOOO) for this semester.
    I drove 30 miles from work to school two nights a week for 3 hours
    each night.  I had a minimum of 15 hours of homework a week.  At first
    it was fun and filled a lot of free time I had, but midway through the
    12 week semester I started falling behind, procrastinating like crazy,
    and dreading the daily grind.  A couple of times I thought of quitting
    but didn't because I felt I had to prove something to myself.
    
    My suggestion is to sign up for 2 courses, an easy one (that you'll
    enjoy or won't require much effort) and a hard one.  After the first
    couple of classes you'll know if you can handle both.  Don't put
    yourself in the position of having to make a committment right now as
    to your future.  If you can't hack 2 courses at the same time, then
    drop one and continue with your outside activities.  If you lose those
    and just concentrate on work, school and home, you'll get very
    frustrated, very quickly.
    
    Good luck! 

    I took two classes this semester and it was more than I care to deal
    with. Of course, I'm not a highly driven personality that thrives on
    stress. The start of the semester was easy, mid-way through it
    started to be a drag, and I LIKE both the courses I'm taking. I'm
    learning a new job at work and the combination put me under a lot of
    stress. Now I'll be spending the weekend studying for two finals
    next week.

    Try it for one semester and see if you can deal with it. Remember
    that enjoying life shouldn't be put on hold. liesl

    Gale:
    
    IMHO, I think you should "go for it"!  I think if you talk to your
    daughters and tell them of your plans and goals, they will be very
    encouraging and proud of you to boot!
    
    I know because my mom chose to do this too.  She worked very hard
    to get her degree, with 5 teenaged kids and a brand-new (and wonderful)
    husband.  She had to put aside all her dreams as a young girl to
    raise her family.  We tried not to give her too much grief while
    she was attending school.  On graduation day, we had practically
    the whole town partying!  Now she's an accounting manager at DEC
    and very happy!
    
    Three semesters isn't so long, when you think about it.  You have
    4 years ahead of you in Law School, why not get these last courses
    out of the way so you can realize your dream more quickly?
    
    I've been going to school at night for almost 10 years, finally
    next year I will graduate with my Bachelor's.  I started taking
    only one course, then once I got used to studying and juggling my
    time, I went full steam ahead and took two, sometimes three classes,
    and summer sessions too.  I think it did wonders for my self-image
    and I am learning a lot of valuable things (besides making lots
    of friends and enhancing my opportunities for career mobility!).
    
    Good luck to you!
    
    Tammi
    

	 Gale...

         I took ONE graduate class the first year I was working here
         at DEC....an Operating Systems course.  I'm also single, no
         family, no relationships and I suffered greatly.

	 Graduate professors expect a LOT from their students, and you
	 should be aware of what the professors in these classes are
	 going to be expecting from you before you plan to take two
	 courses together (and work full-time and keep the family
	 together).

         You haven't mentioned, I don't think, exactly what kinds of
         courses these are.  I know that I would have no problem
         taking two reading-intensive courses simultaneously because I
         retain most of what I read and I read fast.  But I WOULD have
         a hard time taking two computer/engineering classes
         simultaneously because of the time-consuming homework
         involved.

	 Definately take into account the orientation of the classes
	 and the skills you currently have to handle the orientation.


	 As for me, I will never "put my life" on hold for anything
	 like this.  I would simply take the extra time right now, and
	 enjoy it a little more.  I get VERY resentful, very quickly
	 when I don't have the time to do the things that I want to
	 do.

	 Life is too short to not enjoy all you can out of it.


	 But as someone stated earlier, it can't be anyone else's
	 decisions but yours.

	 kath

re .0,
    I agree with Jon that you may experience burn out if you push too hard. 
    Beware that if you push too hard, your run the risk of hating the stuff
    you used to enjoy.  I took a course in MIT last semester, and found out
    the prof. was a slave driver (the course started with about 20 students
    and ended with 7!  Excellent lectures though).  I got very little sleep
    during the semester and ended up hating the stuff I used to love (but
    the interest is slowly bouncing back).  Let me just say that 2 years
    ago, I would have suggest you to go ahead, but now.  Well now, I would
    just describe some of my own experiences, but no advices. :-)  
    
    re .12,
    Kathy, the two messiest courses in CS (grad or undergrad) are compiler
    constructions and operating systems.  I have seen my fellow students
    spending days on those programing assignments when I was in Illinois.
    Needless to say, I got my M.S. in CS without taking any of the two. :-)
    
    Eugene
                                            

    Well..

    After talking with several people, including my mom, the guy who is in
    my life, my best friend, and reading all of these, I've decided to at
    least try it out. The worst that will happen is I will have a miserable
    winter! Most of the above named people told me "To Go for it"... and
    even offered a shoulder to break down and cry on if needed :-).. with
    that kind of encouragement, I guess it won't hurt to try it.  So I
    called my advisor and told him to sign me up for Management Informations
    Systems, and Marketing Management.  That will leave Finance, Operations
    Management, Policy, and one elective left.
     
    I've also decided to make sure I have one complete evening out, and
    have January and February and April evenings booked (3 plays!!)
    already.

    After I get through it, I'll post back here, and let you know how it
    goes...

    So far the people that it will be effecting have taken it very well,
    including my girls who said they'd make sure they kept the house clean
    :-) (now why don't I believe THAT one?)...

    Gale,
       I am currently persuing my MBA, two courses every quarter, eight
    more quarters to go. I can understand what you mean by "putting
    my life on hold". I guess one thing you want to decide - do you
    want to do this to get a degree or to learn? With 40+ hours at work
    and two daughters at home, will you have enough time to take two 
    classes two nights a week and read enough outside the prescribed
    text to learn about the course material?. If you are just going for the
    grades, it may be a little less harder.
    
    Anil.                                    

    re: .0
    
    Hi Gail,
    
    Welcome to the "CLub" of "Choices"....
    
    A number of people have followed that same path for a number of years.
    
    Many of these people (GIs, Parents, Men, Women) hav managed to do all
    that, including working overtime, solving fixing up old cars, and
    keeping home, hearth, and Spouses happy.
    
    As far as a "love" life is concerned, if you were to find a person who
    would accept the restrictive style, then you could be "more" sure you
    have one who loves you for yourself, and and not for the convenience of
    loving someone "who is readily available".
    
    It is true that it takes a special sort of person to juggle the myriad
    of priorities (sick kids, ailing cars, study, papers due, kids parties,
    personal whims, personal illness, etc) and I feel you are the kind of
    person who can handle that task.
    
    If you were to have the right sort of "lovelife", then that person
    could as easily be a help to you, rather than a liability. Of course,
    all these "IFs" do depend on the willingness of the "right sort of
    person" to show up, Putting life "on hold" is silly, unless there's
    really no other rational alternative. 
    
    I've had people tell me (when I was in school for ten years nights)
    that "they could never do that". They were right. "They" could not, for
    "they" were happy with what they already had, or were unwilling to to
    do what you are doing (and others managed to do).
    
    My opinion is: Go for it !!!!!!!!
    
    Then, on the other hand, there is another family of opinion which holds
    to be true: If you can go a year without a lovelife, then you can go
    forever without one, having proved itself to be unnecessary.
    
    bob e
    
    

    
    yes, try to find out what you're getting yourself into !
    
    I'm taking ONE course this semester, Japanese at Harvard Extension
    School.  It's tough.  I'm not able to spend all the necessary time,
    so I'm doing mediocrely.  And I assure you:
    
    			Watasi wa daka zya nai desu !
    
    There's no way I could take two courses.  And I don't even have kids
    yet.
    
    So be careful not to buy more than you can choose.
    
    /Eric
    

    Gail,
    
    
    	I guess by now you have your head spinning on this subject. I can
    say from experience that it does cause hardships on family, friends and
    relationships. I feel that it would be the best interest to take your
    time and finish. I know what its like to see the light at the end of
    the tunnel and wanting to finish it off with speed. But do it to learn
    it not to kill it off, for you will kill off more than the class and
    degree. Remember the two bull theori? No? Well I will recite it for
    you. And for all reading this note, please do not take it with any
    degree of slight. Two bulls standing on a knowl, over looking a heard
    of jerseys. The young bull says to the old bull,' lets Run down the
    knowl and have sex with a jersey!'. The old bull says,' Lets WALK down
    and have sex with them all'.
    
    G

    
    Gail,
     the two_course_every_semester thing might catch up with you.....I said
    MIGHT.....2-1-2-1 would PROBABLY be my speed....however your greatest
    enemy is the apprehension of what your life WILL be should you do X and
    not Y.  Don't let yourself fall into that rut......that...and making
    up all the lists in the world will tire you out much quicker than just
    (pardon the commercial pun) doing it.  Try accepting the added work as
    added knowledge to be gained....in addition, it seems as though the
    more things that I have going on....the more the mind starts to click
    at that speed....and the body seems to follow the mind.
    
    good luck with whatever you decide on.....
    
    steve
    

    Gale
    I say relax!  You can always go back to school, I know I intend to
    someday also to get a masters degree.  Spend quality time with your
    girls, they need their mom.  When they get a bit older and more
    independant then go for school again.  You are never to old to go back
    to school.
    
    good luck
    
    Lynne "your neighbor" ;-)

    I promised you all an update...  so...
    

    If anyone is going to attempt to do more than one graduate course in a
    semester, I'd not take it too lightly.

    You are at a very disadvantage. My main problem especially around
    mid-term was getting enough sleep!...  

    I found I had to cut a lot of things that I thought I could put into
    the schedule also.  Skiing was almost not existent, even though I
    planned it for Friday evenings. (Hint, don't buy a season pass :-)..)

    Once the semester settled past mid-terms, and case work got easier to
    do, the semester seemed to become easier. However, writing two papers
    (one 50+ pages) at once can be a little trying. You may want to look at
    what the requirements of the course is first.  Having one course that
    is all cases and no exams, and one just two exams and no cases might be
    a better mix. 

    I've decided to NOT push it, and have re-looked how to finish the
    degree.  One course this summer, one this fall, and two this winter.

    I will not reach the goal set for me or be able to teach in the
    spring, however, I think my sanity and social life need the extra time
    :-)...  I have a whole life ahead of me :-)

    If anyone ever wants more information on what this semester was like,
    send me mail, I'd be more than happy to give you the insight I gained,
    plus the insight given to me by other people who also attempted (some
    successfully, some not) taking more than one graduate level and
    working 40+ hours in a week.

    Sounds familiar!  I spent YEARS getting a master's one course a
    semester (except for a couple of semesters when I was very broke: when
    I first bought my house, and while I was getting divorced).   Some
    classes you could have taken five at a time, since all they did was
    occupy three hours one evening a week, whereas others I found hard to
    keep up with all by themselves - anything that involved extensive
    research and/or writing lots of papers.  I definitely didn't have much
    of a social life, though.  But I did finally finish the degree, several
    years ago now.  let's just say it was a good exercise in discipline
    (since the degree isn't worth anything at DEC since I did not alreadsy
    have it when DEC hired me, sigh).
    
    /Charlotte