Conference quark::human_relations-v1

re: .0

> What do you think of this practice?

  Well, as you already recognize, it's not the norm, but given your avowal
  to remain single and your desire to father and raise a child of your own,
  I personally think that the approach you've chosen is the most "honorable".

> Would you treat a child any differently knowing she/he was conceived under
> such circumstances?

  For Christsakes, No! It's beyond me why _anyone_ would treat a person
  (child or otherwise) differently because of the circumstances of their
  conception. It's not like it's anything the child had control over, is it?

> Would your attitude towards a person be any different knowing they were
> conceived under contract?

  Again, no. It's not a matter that was under their control.

  FWIW, I applaud you for your concern over the child's welfare above and
  beyond what anyone may think of you for your actions. I find nothing
  wrong with them myself, but as you allude in your last paragraph, not
  everyone you come in contact with is going to share that view.

  Good luck and keep us posted on your progress!

  -Jack

> Would your attitude towards a person be any different knowing they
> were conceived under contract?

Most children are born under a contract, the contract of marriage. 

I fail to see anything wrong with what you are doing. The wish to
raise a child and give it a home, nurturing and love is noble. I
think it's natural to have doubts (I know **I** had many, before I
decided to become a parent). 

I don't think you child will be any different or attract more
attention that the many other single parent children. But, I am sure
that one day, he/she will pop the questions of 'where do I came 
from' and 'where is my mommy' and you better have an answer ready. 

Best of luck to you. 

-- Ron 

What you want to do is no different from what single mothers have been
doing for years, raising their children alone. The biggest difference
as previously mentioned is the question of "where do I come from?" This
is obviously a more complicated to answer. 

I think any single parent will encounter difficulties raising a child
alone, it is to bad you are going to have to fight the prejudices
against your being a man doing this.     

Gail

Re: .3

It's no different than what single fathers have been doing for years, either!

The primary attribute needed to be a good parent is love.  And love doesn't
care whether you're married or single, male or female.

I wish the author of .0 all the best.


				Steve

    It is grossly unfair to regard anyone differently based upon the
    circumstances of their conception.  However, you have obviously
    recognized that the circumstances are far from the norm.  From a
    practical standpoint, it's not likely that anyone (except possibly
    the child) needs to know, nor are they likely to inquire.  If I were
    you, I would certainly not raise the subject, since it could lead to
    all manner of rude questions from some people.  Just live out your
    life as you see fit, and avoid possible problems.  There are lots of
    single parents out there whose reasons for having children are no
    better than yours.  I wish you all the best.
    
    Dave E
    

    re:.1
    
    	� For Christsakes, No! It's beyond me why _anyone_
    	would treat a person (child or otherwise) differently
    	because of the circumstances of their conception.
    	It's not like it's anything the child had control
    	over, is it? �
    
    Certainly no more so than skin color or gender, but those are
    probably the two most significant criteria by which people treat
    other people differently. Lamentable is certainly is, but it's
    also part of the nature of the beast.
    
    --- jerry

    I'm a soon-to-be-divorced father of 2 daughters, 5 and 7.  Both are
    living with me.  Their Mommy is mentally ill and is incapable of
    raising them. She has lived out of our home since June this year.
    
    Let me say this, I disagree with the noter in .1 where the author's
    approach is considered "honorable."  Good Lord!... Think of the child!..
    Can't you, the plan-to-be-father in base note .0 imagine the thoughts that 
    goes on his/her head during the early years?!?!... Don't you think for 
    once he/she may persistently ask you why all her friends have a Mommy and 
    he/she doesn't.  Can't you understand that a Motherly hug is different
    from a Father?!?!...They love to be cuddle up to her soft breast.  Can't
    you see the aching and the hurting that goes on in the child's heart when
    Daddy isn't always available when he's needed?!?!...And a Mommy isn't
    there at all to be an important role model in the child's life?!..  
    Remember!....a mother is just as important to a child as a father!...  
    That is a fact.
    
    Don't just "go for it!"  Think HARD and long about what I'm saying
    here.  It is NOT an easy road raising a child alone.  It is hard sometimes.
    A child feels something's amiss here if one parent isn't avaialble to 
    fulfill his/her emotional needs and growth. 
    
    Believe me...I know what I'm talking about... I'm raising 2 little
    girls on my own and they're God's richest blessings to me. I'd write
    a book about my life as a parent-without-partner if I could.  I just don't 
    think it's fair AT ALL to the child for you, the author to consider
    this unless you marry.  
    
    Of the woman who you wants to bear your child for a fee.  Boy, you
    could end up in an awful court battle if she decides suddenly she wants to
    keep the baby. That's another thing to consider.  The battle for child
    custody.  And you, the author may not have a saying in the matter after
    the decision by the court is final... The battle could go on for
    years.  
    
    Must go.  I hope I've helped.
    John
            
    
    
     
    
    I'm opened to discussions here.  It's a serious one.    

    I trust you have carefully thought about why you never want to be
    married, and how those feelings relate to the to me nearly opposite
    desire to have children?
    
    They both require love, understanding, compromise, nuturing, etc...
    The children perhaps more than a marriage (for good results), though
    kids do take 'crap' better than some wives?  (they're stuck)
    
    The above answers seem to me to miss the point?
    
    And legally?  if you found a woman you can trust for this, she is
    already quite special...most (people) you couldn't, especially for the
    long term.
    
    *****************
    
    'some wives' someone will undoubtably ask?  Some people unfortunately
    will put up with most anything (personality, training, etc); but kids
    generally 'have to'.  ie. reality as opposed to prejudice. 

	BTW, what if the child is a girl?  It can be very difficult to raise a
	child of the opposite sex without a parent/major influence of that sex
	in their life.  Your reasons for remaining a lifelong single are your 
	own business, but please also consider whether they may affect your 
	child's perception of women, and, if that child is a girl, of herself.  

	As others have pointed out, your child will very quickly notice that
	families are "supposed to" be a mommy and daddy [who live together], 
	and will start asking questions much sooner than you might have thought
	(before age 6, certainly, as he/she will probably be exposed to this 
	"norm" at daycare, if not simply in your neighborhood).  How soon did
	you intend to discuss the truth, and its motivations?

	But, in answer to your question, no, I don't think I'd feel any 
	differently about a child conceived "under contract".  Kids are kids.
	But the people you're concerned about are probably not the type who'd
	be reading this notesfile, and perhaps not even working for a hightech
	company.  :-)  

	To paraphrase the usual 'infallible sources' (Abby or Miss Manners :-),
	you really don't owe an explanation to other people, as it's none
	of their business.  Your child, certainly.  Friends, perhaps - and they
	probably won't have been friends if they reacted so poorly to the 
	situation.  But, if possible (assuming you get no media attention?), the
	"general public" need only be told if you want to or if it's necessary.
		JMO,
		Helen

I AGREE!  I agree with everything John said (917.7).  Children need mothers 
AND fathers both for different and very real reasons.  Taking that away from a 
child or never giving it to a child in the first place in "my opinion" is 
wrong.  A child is not a commodody - where you go out and buy him or her. Lots 
of people want to "love" a child and have one of their own and that's 
understandable - but I think a child should be "concieved in love" not the 
other way around.  God I sure hope I was conceived in love.  I'd be crushed to 
find out I wasn't.   I don't think women should go out and become single 
parents on their own either.  I'm not judging anyone here - just stating my 
opinion.  When the child grows up and starts asking you questions?  I have no 
idea.  I'm a single mother - and it's TOUGH WORK and hard on my son sometimes. 
I wouldn't choose that position for anything in the world.  Good luck - 
you will need it.

/Colleen

    
    I agree with Colleen. While there are indeed many single parents of
    both sexes in the world, I bet the majority of them aren't that way by
    choice. Divorce is not always done by a persons choice.
    
    Children need every break they can get and two parents can give more to
    a child than one.
    
    

    re.  the last few - 
    
    I hesitate to get into this discussion because I'm hearing a lot of
    judgments going on and not a lot of understanding from the point of
    view of the basenoter.  
    
    I am a single parent and have been since my daughter was 10 months old. 
    As far as a child needing two parents - it just isn't true.  It's
    easier on the parent not to have to be responsible all of the time, not to
    have to be "the bad guy" all of the time, not to be able to be
    supported in their parenting by someone else, not to be able to get any
    perspective on the job that their doing parenting this little person. 
    It's not an easy task to be a single parent.  You have to be "on" all
    of the time - 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.  However, as far as how it
    affects the child, I know that my daughter is better off because I
    chose to be a single parent rather than staying in a loveless
    relationship fraught with tension and hostility.  If the basenote
    sincerely believes that marriage - or even a long term relationship are
    not for him, then it is better to raise a child alone than in a
    situation that is abhorrent to the parent.  The only question I would
    have is one that has been posed in a previous response, although not in
    these words, is the reason for the resistance to marriage or a long
    term relationship a lack of belief in the ability of the basenoter to
    commit?  If so - I would not advise him to have a child.  Raising a
    child is the ultimate commitment in the realm of human relationship. 
    That little person is your child as long as it and you live and there
    is no abdicating that relationship.
    
    If the basenoter honestly feels that he can commit to the time, energy,
    love and patience that it takes to raise a child then I congratulate
    him on his decision and wish him the best of luck.
    
    Nanci

    re: -.1
    
    Thanks Nanci for saying so precisely what I wanted to express. There
    is little doubt in my mind that a happy secure marriage will make
    life a bit easier on the child because society has deemed this is the
    'way' - however, with the number of children being raised with one
    parent growing (and some of us who are now adults having been raised
    in that environment), I find it difficult to make judgements on
    needs. 
    
    Having one parent does not indicate lack of a meaningful life - nor that
    the child will mature with problems. It is a matter of QUALITY, not
    quantity. 
    
    -janine
    

    
    I went back and re-read the basenote and found that the question was
    asked about the feelings about the child in this case. And in that
    light, I would say that I would not feel any differently towards this
    child as any other.
    
    ed

Thank-you all for taking the time to reply.

I have spent many hours considering the impact that all of this will have on my
child and perhaps what I'm doing now is seeking affirmation that the
questions I have asked myself are truly those which should be of concern.

First of all; my financial situation will permit me to take 6 to 8 months off
work to look after my child.  My field of expertise, my experience in this
field and my background will permit me to work at home or find work just about
anywhere.  My child will spend less time without a parent than he/she would in
a "normal" family with two working parents.

My lawyer has raised the issue regarding future custody of my child and for now
I can only hold the mother to her word and to the contract she has signed. 

The doctor handling this case has a complete medical history of the mother and,
except for being accident prone, her history and her present medical condition
are ideal.  She does not smoke nor drink.  She is tall, healthy, intelligent 
and attractive. Her motivation?  The money, the belief that I will make a good
father since she has checked into my history as thoroughly as I have checked
hers and the fact that she likes me as I am.  In her own words, "we will make a
beautiful baby".   I gave her the option for visitation which she declined.

From a practical point of view, I'm as set as I can be.

From an emotional point of view the scenario is the same.  I have been a
volunteer worker with handicapped children for 12 years and a Big Brother to
fatherless boys for four years and find I have enough patience and
understanding when it comes to children to feel comfortable at the prospect of
having one of my own.  At 30, I feel young enough to remember my own childhood
and what it was like to live in a world made by and for "big people", yet I
feel old enough to have the maturity it takes to be a good parent.  I make no
connection with my desire to be a father and my desire to remain unmarried.

I understand that a father is not the same as a mother, but I also understand
that being without one parent for one's entire life cannot be more damaging
than witnessing one's parents go through a divorce and feeling perhaps the
guilt that "maybe mommy/daddy left because I was bad".  But my parents are still
together and they still act like newlyweds at 62, so I don't know.  The answers
for my child will be there when the questions are asked and the answers will be
the truth; I loved you more than anyone could love someone even before you were
conceived.  I loved you so much that I had to hold you even though it meant
that you would not have a mother around to watch you grow. 

I am not one to permit fate to decide my future as long as I am able to decide
my own.  Nor am I one to not pursue my own path or my own goals because it is
not the way it's supposed to be done.  Nor am I insincere enough to go through
the motions of getting married so that I may go about this the "proper" way.
With these parameters there is no other option except to deny who I am and
disregard the honest relationship I have developed with myself.  I cannot do
that, even (or especially) with an unconceived child at stake.

I thank-you once again for your input.

    I would not have any negative feelings about the child, but I would also
    input that before you embark on sometime like this to *really* talk to
    people who have kids and are single, and with them 100% of the time.

    100% of the time is the key here, as they will be able to give you the
    the insight as to what you may go through, how you might feel
    about certain aspects.

    Parents who trade off raising the kid(s) will not be able to relate to
    the feelings that a 100% single parent has. Even parents who have
    certain weekends with the kid(s), or even nights during the week will
    not be able to give you the real feelings, because for them there is
    some escaping.

    If you are going to do this, I would suggest a *good* support community
    (ie Church).

    Feel free to send me mail if you'd like...

    Gale

    I agree, Gail.
    
    Basenoter, feel free to send me mail, too.
    
    Nanci

    Sounds like the basenoter has more of his act together than many
    parents I know including my own. If he's as sound in reality as
    he appears in writing, I think he will be a fine parent.
    
    (The woman that is bearing the child "for the money" is another
    note entirely. Blech)
    
    Gail

    re .0
    
    I would not treat the child any differently because of the
    circumstances.
    
    Single-parenting is not easy - I did it for 7 years.  But it can be
    done.  It's too early to tell all the ramifications of that, but in
    contrast I had a very secure childhood with two parents and that 
    situation caused problems which I'm just now beginning to understand
    and deal with.  On the positive side, my daughter is more mature and
    more successful dealing with life than I was as a teenager.
    
    I tried putting myself in the position of your child-to-be, and found
    that my reaction (as the child) would be this:
    "How could my mother DO this?  How could she have me *for money* and
    then just *walk out of my life*?  What kind of a person could she be?"
    What it amounts to is, "My mother doesn't LOVE me?!?!?!?! How could she
    desert me?"  It could even go so far as, "How could you let her leave?"
    And I don't have an answer.
    
    Best of luck!
    Paula

    re .0:
    
    It sounds like you've thought this through very carefully.  That said,
    I'd simply suggest that you paint the absolute "worst case" scenario in
    your mind, and decide whether you can live with that possibility as
    reality.  If so, you've done your homework IMHO.
    
    all the best,
    Marge

    To base noter:
    
    I'm a single parent and belong to a group called "Single Mothers by
    Choice" in the Boston, MA area.  Many of the women in this group
    are considering motherhood by donor insemination and they regularly
    discuss the issues you have brought up: what will my child feel like
    with no father?  Their explanation to the kids (who are now only age
    4 or less) is that they wanted them badly enough to do it alone, and
    yes, they do have a father who was a very kind man to help, but he
    is not in their lives.  They are a family with just a mommy and child
    (and cousins and aunts, uncles, etc)
    
    My child knows her daddy and sees him regularly and he loves her.
    But these children that I see at this meeting are just as much loved
    and they are treated no differently.  In fact, it is so wonderful to
    meet these women and see them with their "miracle babies".
    
    I connected with this group after searching other single parent groups.
    At the other groups I found bitter, divorced parents who could only
    complain about child-support, etc.  I find that I have much more in
    common with these professional, unmarried women who CHOSE not to
    abort or to actively pursue motherhood via insemination.  We don't
    complain, we share the joys of parenthood.
    
    The group is not open to men at this time.  But if you would like to
    contact me via vaxmail, please feel free to do so.
    
    Another idea: you might try to connect with adoption groups for single
    men if there are any...some of your issues might be the same.
    
    Best wishes,
    Beth

    
    
    It might also help to consider the following:
    
    With the exception of one child, I don't know the circumstances
    of conception for anyone in my life (wait, make that 2 children,
    I guess I know the circumstances of my son's conception too!).
    The point is, most people are not going to know that your child
    was conceived under 'different' circumstances (I'll bet Ms. Manner's
    would have a lot to say about this issue!).
    
    I'm willing to bet that my 10 year old attends school with a lot
    of kids who are the product of adoption, artificial insemination,
    invitro fertilization or fertility drugs.
    
    Also, consider our society and the direction in which we are headed.
    Louise Brown made headlines a decade ago.  Today such a procedure is
    relatively common.  Also a decade ago, we were considering the pros
    and cons of circumcision.  One consideration was that he would be
    "different" from other little boys.  Today, the decision to forgo
    circumcision is more commonly made.  Hence, my concern that he would
    be radically different were unfounded.
    
    Lots of kids are growing up in single parent homes, blended homes,
    even 2-parent, 2-household homes.  Kids are adaptable.  The important
    thing for a child is to be loved (a sizeable income doesn't hurt
    though!).,
    
    Deb
    

    To the basenoter...
    
    I think what you want to do is interesting but is certainly
    not without it's complications.  
    
    I would have no problem with a child conceived this way 
    and I certainly wouldn't treat the child any differently.
    
    People have suggested you ask yourself some very serious
    questions.  Others have recommended you talk to single
    parents. I have another suggestion...
    
    Why not ask a few kids of various ages, what they think?  
    How they would feel if told their mother is someone who
    agreed to have them simply for the money?  Ask these kids
    what their friends might say.  Would they feel uncomfortable
    telling people the true story, or would they feel compelled 
    to make up a fantasy mother to satisfy the need to fit in.
    
    I am not trying to discourage your dream of fatherhood, in
    fact, I think it's really a wonderful thing you are trying
    to do.  But listen to the children, hear what they have to 
    say, because ultimately their the ones you're going to have 
    to answer to, their the ones that will be asking questions,
    their the ones who may be hurt.
    
    I wish you and yours, the very best.
    
    Jodi-
    

The comparision is being made here between your choosing to have a child by
yourself, and getting married in order to have a child and hypothetically having
the child go through a messy divorce and come from a broken home. 

This is a very poor comparision.  The difference is that people who having
children and divorce do not *choose* to have children, and *choose* to divorce.
The empathsis and overriding facter in these scenario is you getting your child,
not what is better or worse for your child.  You do not seem to have considered
whether or not a child is better off never existing, or with an intentional
single parent, or whether your energies are best applied helping children who
already exist and need your help.  Ordinarily what you do should be your own
business, but when you create another human being to fullfill your needs you
must take them into account.

Whether any child is better off existing or not would be a good question to
consider.  Children who are concieved unintentionally of course need to be cared
for.  Children who are concieved 'as a matter of course', out of a sense of
duty, or 'that's the way life is suposeed to be', and in a normal fashion
probably don't give it much thought.  But I think it would be a good idea for
you to think on it, and I'm sure it would be an interesting topic which I'd be
interested in discussing. 

Jim.

    I'd like to make a few points;
    
    1) My husband who was adopted as a baby has never forgiven his
    biological parents for deserting him. He is like many adoptees
    who harbor lots of resentment for their whole lives.
    
    2) Children are cruel. This child would have to either lie or lie
    by omission in order for his secret not to be divulged. School
    kids may not accept this.
    
    3) Even the children with separated parents have role models. They
       may not live together but at least they have role models.
    
    4) Legal ramifications can be devistating for the child.
    
    5) Children are not commodities. 
    
    6) I would not descriminate against a child who was created for
    money. But I would feel as though he would have a heavier burden
    of living up to his expectations than his peers. Imagine being cre-
    ated and sold for the purpose of full filling someone's dreams.
    
    Good Luck,
    Kate 
                                                            

    RE:0--You sound like one terrific guy to me and more put together than
    most people/parents I know.  I have friends who are still married and I
    believe (in some cases) their children are worse off then the ones who
    come from divorced homes.  Being a 2-parent family is not what makes
    kids happy or well-adjusted or anything else.  Besides, there are situ-
    ations where a mother could die and the father has to raise the child
    alone--doesn't mean the child is less loved, etc.  I also know plenty
    of parents who are the pits and the kids would be better off without
    them for all the problems the kids have know that they are grown.  One
    of my best friends raised her children ALONE from the time they were 2
    & 3 years old (now are 21 & 23).  She never had  anyone to take them 
    every other weekend, she always worked (needed too because this guy 
    never supported them either) and she has a son who has some problems 
    and a daughter I would want my daughter to be just like if I had a 
    daughter (I have 2 sons).  NO ONE has the formula for a happy, success-
    ful child--not in this crazy world we live in.  I know kids who are 
    going no where who came from wonderful, loving homes.  A lot of the
    concern seems to be with this unborn childs peers and how they will
    treat him/her.  Who knows anymore than we know how peers will treat
    our own kids from 2 parent homes, divorced homes, if the child is fat,
    skinny, pretty, unattractive, wears glasses!  My sister was teased un-
    mercifully as a child for being over-weight and we came from 2-parent
    loving, warm, wonderful home.  I believe MOST children are not cruel 
    when left alone (and not overhear parent's opinions on such matters).
    Look at how one town and school opened their hearts to the little boy
    who was ostrisized by another for having Aids.  I've seen articles
    about 5 year old girls who are siamese twins fuzed at the abdomen and
    the kids at school think they're GREAT.  Look at how the little boy who
    was doused with gasoline and set on fire by his fire was treated by his
    classmates--they went all out for this kid.  I believe with the love 
    you seem to want to share with this child, you will both do just fine.
    One questions--why not adopt an unwanted, already born child and give
    that child all the love you have?  Well, I'll get off my soapbox.  Good
    luck and God bless!!

    Only you know what's in your heart and life that you want to share.
    I, for one, support you whole heartedly in your wish to be a father.
    In this world of negativism, you're striving to create something
    beautiful and positive.  Go for it!
    
    Best Wishes and Lots of Support to both you and your soon-to-be-loved
    child,
    
    Barb

    To the basenoter:
    
    To some extent, "what people will think about your child" is determined
    in part by how much you tell, to whom.  I understand your wanting to get
    feedback, input, and support...it's a simultaneously exciting and scary
    journey you're undertaking.  I would just raise a big "CAUTION" banner,
    and strongly recommend that the details of your child's conception and
    birth are no-one's business but those people immediately involved.  I
    believe this to be true about a lot of things that happen within the
    context of "family", including any conception and birth...this
    information is what we used to call "family matters", to be discussed
    only within the family, and representing our special, shared stuff.
    
    There will, inevitably, be people who don't agree with artificial
    insemination for whatever reason ("there are plenty of unwanted babies
    around...why don't you adopt one?" and "it goes against the natural
    order" are two of my favorites.)  There will, inevitably, be people who
    will cast aspersions on not only your child but yourself, questioning
    your sexual orientation because of the way in which you have chosen to
    have a family...as though that issue makes any difference whatsoever.
    
    I certainly wouldn't "hold anything against" a child conceived
    this way, or against yourself for wanting a child conceived this way.
    I think it's absolutely wonderful that our scientific advances have
    brought us to this point. I applaud your ability to know yourself 
    and to take on the tremendous emotional (and other) risks involved 
    in this course of action.
    
    Re: the comment (somewhere, in some reply) about selling kids as a
    commodity, even though that was not your primary area of inquiry,
    I feel compelled to address that reply also.  I certainly don't think 
    you are approaching this as primarily a financial deal; and the 
    birth-mother's reasons are her own.  I'm happy that there are women who
    are willing to be surrogates, to help those people who want their own
    kids but for whatever circumstances can't have them (be it
    circumstances of marriage, infertility, or whatever.)  It's not a
    choice I personally could make, but I don't agree with condemning that
    choice per se.  Bearing and birthing a child not only costs money but
    is hard work, and it makes sense to me that surrogates be compensated.     
                   
    Finally, best of luck to you and your child.  Please do keep us
    informed.
    
    Regards,
    Lynn

    I say "gopher it" too. It is your decision, and if that is your desire
    to stay single and have a child, you have every right too do what you
    want to do.  A child is a child in my eyes, and should not be treated
    any indifferently that one that has been raised with both parents.
    
    
    best of luck!
    
    Lynne

    Thank-you all for expressing your thoughts on the topic and thanks
    especially to those who invited correspondence.  My apologies for not
    accepting the invitation.
    
    In September I will, with the grace of God, become a father.  The
    mother is healthy and handling morning sickness like a hero with a
    great sense of humour.
    
    I have spoken to teachers on the topic of single-parent children and
    have been assured that they cope with school and integrate every bit as
    well as children from traditional homes.  This was very reassuring.
    
    I have also taken a friends advice an sought the counseling of a family
    psychologist.  She has been quite helpful.  She points out that hostile
    feelings towards parents who leave their children balances out with
    hostile feelings which many people have towards parents who were around
    and raised them throughout their childhood.  How a child perceives one
    or both parents leaving relies entirely upon how the topic is handled
    by the guardian or parent who raises them.
    
    She thinks the child will be "okay".  She's not so sure about me and
    thinks I'm being a masochist.  I tell her I'm prepared for fatherhood;
    I've read Bill Cosby's book (wink and a smile).
    
    Thanks again.
    

     	I think you are being quite foolish ....... I don't get the feeling
    	that you know just what the heck you are in for......what happens
    	if "mommie" decides to keep the child? ....try being a Big Brother
    	as a trail, there are plenty of kids wanting, it sure isn't the
    same as being there all the time
    

    For some time I was wrestling with with every doubt I had over this
    matter.  Among my doubts were those which were raised here and many
    others which I have dreamt up.
    
    I felt the baby kick and where once there was doubt, now there is none.
    
    I feel so much more a part of the universe now then I ever did before. 
    I have come to an understanding of love and life in terms so very
    personal and so deep that, at times, I find it frightening.  I also
    find it refreshing. 
    
    I think that every moment of my life was focused on that one small
    kick.  It was as if that was the moment for which I have lived.  And in
    feeling the life with which I am connected, I have purged every doubt I
    have had over this entire matter.  I realize that it is not for others
    to judge my methods.  Whatever derisions may be put forward against my
    child or myself because of the circumstance of her/his conception, pale
    in comparison with the treasure of life and the bond of father and
    child.  I now smile at the thought of 'pooey' diapers.  I have no qualm
    with baby drool on leather upholstery or Gerbers on silk ties.  And
    suddenly all those things I held so dear; gold credit cards, sleek
    cars, stock portfolios and European vacations are stupid trappings
    which serve no purpose except to distract us from that which is really
    important; the next generation.
    
    A few years ago I would look at my friends who had opted for the
    "raising child route" for their lives and wondered how they could do
    that at their age.  There was so much more to do with their lives, and
    so much that they would have to put off or never do that I wondered how
    they generated enough enthusiasm to start every day.  There's been an
    amazing turn in my perception.  I now look at my friends who are
    planning on remaining childless and wonder how they could plan their
    lives detouring around the most incredible thing a human being can do;
    conceive and raise new life.
    
    So far, I'd recommend it to anyone.
    

    RE: .32...
    
    Thanks for the update.  Let us know when the bambino is born.
    
    :^)
    
    Jodi-
    

    Re: .32
    
    Thank you for such beautiful note!  It was very touching.  Having
    had 7 myself, I can appreciate the miracle of the first movement
    of each child--that first communication that says "I'm here!"  If
    I can be of more support in the times to come when it's just you
    and baby, please write me anytime.  Best wishes to all of you.
    
    Warm thoughts,
    Barb

>                   <<< Note 917.32 by QUARK::HR_MODERATOR >>>


>    There's been an
>    amazing turn in my perception.  I now look at my friends who are
>    planning on remaining childless and wonder how they could plan their
>    lives detouring around the most incredible thing a human being can do;
>    conceive and raise new life.
    

	That's what so wonderful about life as we know it.  People like
	you, who will make WONDERFUL fathers, choose to make that
	decision--A decision well thought-out, well-planned.  You can give
	a child what they need....the loving, the caring, the attention.

	And people like me.....people that know they would never make a
	good parent and would never be able to give a child what they
	deserved...can make the decision to not have a child....and be
	comfortable with that--and most people around them will accept that
	just as most people around you will accept yours.


	Just as you wrestled with the decision in wanting a child, I
	wrestle with the decision to terminate my ability to have children.

	It's funny the way that works.

	kath
	

    I have to take this opportunity to talk about a discovery I have noted
    on several occasions during my lifetime.  When I was young there were
    not the options available that there are today for making choices
    around children.  
    
    Many friends and acquaintences did not want children, did not feel that
    they would be good parents and despite their planning became pregnant.
    
    Having experienced childbirth and the mystery of instinct I am not at
    all surprised that they did very well raising their children.
    
    Instinct is not logical nor explainable...but it is there to help those
    folks who have children planned or unplanned.
    
    Disclaimer:  Even the rules of nature have exceptions!
    

>            <<< Note 917.36 by PENUTS::JLAMOTTE "J & J's Memere" >>>

	I don't doubt that I would be a good mother, Joyce.  I'm sure
	I would if the opportunity was thrust on me.

	However, instinct or no, I most likely will never conciously
	make the decision.

	It is interesting watching the twists life offers you, though!

	kath

	PS:  (Sorry to sidetrack.....it was really just random musings)

The skill of being a good parent is not something that is granted magically,
and many people lack it (even though they have children).  I firmly believe
that people who say that they wish not to have children should be supported
in that choice and not made to feel guilty about it.  Likewise, those
who wish to have children (and who have the resources necessary) should
also be encouraged.

Every child born should be wanted and loved by their parents.  There is nothing
quite so devastating to a child as not being wanted by their parents.  The
psychological effects last a lifetime.

				Steve

    I agree, my friend, that many people lack the ability to parent.
    
    And I agree that if people choose to remain childless should not be
    made to feel guilty with their decision.
    
    But instinct is somewhat magic...and many people who have stated that
    they feel they would be terrible parents do a wonderful job of raising
    children if the decision is forced on them.

<    But instinct is somewhat magic...and many people who have stated that
<    they feel they would be terrible parents do a wonderful job of raising
<    children if the decision is forced on them.

    If it was forced on them they may well "make the best of things" but
    I've seen too many unwanted children to think that's the likely case.
    For that matter, I've seen people who really wanted children who turned
    out to be terrible parents. I think it's more a case of personal
    character than base instinct that makes the difference.

    I believe that in general we have an instinct as humans to protect
    younger humans. I wouldn't think twice about grabbing a child I didn't
    even know out of a dangerous situation and I think most adults would
    react that way. However, that's different from knowing when to show
    love and compassion and how to kiss a hurt. Institutions raise children
    and give them all the physical necessities, that's all some parents
    provide also. And it's not enough.

    As for me, being one who is childless by fate rather than choice, I
    keep telling myself I'd probably have been a bad parent anyway. That
    way I can tell myslf it's for the best. liesl

    [Moderator's note - I received the attached note from the anonymous
    author of the base note.  He gave me permission to post it here with
    identifying information removed - Steve]
    
    
    Ladies and Gents,
    
    [Earlier this week], the world was introduced to a 9 pound, 11 ounce
    baby girl.  [She] came into the world with eyes wide open and a full
    head of hair and stole her dad like any daughter would.  A strange
    thought struck me when they told me her weight: I would love to catch a
    bass that big.
    
    Both baby and mom are doing great.  The father, however, has a nervous
    system which has become as brittle as bone china and has not been able
    to sleep for the last several days.  I walk about with a stupid grin on
    my face.  I'm sure there are people in my neighbourhood who think I
    escaped from somewhere.
    
    But it was worth it because, I gotta tell ya, this baby is cute.  I
    mean when I first saw her she looked like a midget, mutant ninja
    monkey, only more moist.  When I left her at 8:00 AM she was an angel.
    
    "Mom" and I have reached a mutually satisfactory agreement regarding
    our relationship and our individual relationships with [the baby].  In
    all, I have accomplished all I set out to do when I started this
    episode.  There are no broken hearts, no unfulfilled promises, no
    unfulfilled dreams.
    
    
    Having gone through this entire process my training as an engineer
    dictates that I give a brief report of my findings:
    
    1)  Preparing for the birth of your child by watching films of the
        process is like preparing for 12 rounds with Mike Tyson by watching
        Rocky.
    
    2)  Don't expect to develop an appetite for lasagna after witnessing a
        child being born.
    
    3)  Heisenbergs Uncertainty Principle should be expanded to include a
        statement on pregnant women's moods during pregnancy.
    
    4)  Murphy's law should be expanded to include a statement to the
        effect of,   "While driving to the hospital with a pregnant woman
        experiencing contraction at 2 minute intervals, the path you choose to
        take will have been dug up by construction crews the night before."
    
    5)  As far as experiences go, having a baby ranks higher than "Space
        Mountain" at Disney World.
    

    Congratulations, Oh Anonymous Dad!  
    
    I hope your daughter brings you as much joy as mine has brought me.
    
    Nanci

    It's great to hear.  Best Wishes!!

    ditto...
    
    

    :):):) Congratulations, Pop!  I am so delighted for you and for
    the lucky little daughter who will have such a loving and caring father.
    Since you are a single parent with a first time infant, I offer my 
    unlimited advice in the care and feeding thereof.  After seven of
    my own, I do have a few tricks of the trade down pat so write (or
    phone me at DTN 544-3179) if I can assist.;)                    
                             
    By the way, do I still get the picture?
                             
    Hugs to both of you,     
                             
    Barb                     
                             

Invaluable note file:

MRDATA::PARENTING

Congrats and good luck.