Conference quark::human_relations-v1

Failure!

Failure to conform to expectations of society or friends.
(even if those expectations are only imagined)

Failure to acheive goals(no matter how unrealistic)

seeing those around you happy and you can't figure out why your not.

a sense of "what is wrong with me?" everyone else has a happy marriage/
relationship/friendship "why can't I have one too?"

too old/ugly/fat/short/tall/etc to be acceptable.

Parents always said you're no good, you believe it.

Friends, loved ones, leave you for no reason you can truly understand.

No matter how often you demonstrate that you keep your word, keep your
promises, you feel like you're not trusted by someone(s) you love/like.

Do you want me to continue Doc? I got 'em all!
(Chr**t I hate holiday seasons, I get depressed, and I know deep down
I'll get a lump of coal for Christmas :-( 'cause that's all I'm worth.)

	 Negative reinforcement (no matter how unintentional) is
	 everywhere around us.

	 Very rarely does positive reinforcement ever come into play.

	 So, when a person continues to have negative things
	 reinforced about them, they begin believing they are a "bad"
	 person.


	 After all, is your partner (in anything) quicker to praise
	 you, or quicker to critique you?

	 It's amazing and very stunning to me when I get a "good job,
	 well done" mail from people who read my notes.  I don't
	 expect it, I expect to hear negative things.  I'm a classic
	 case of low self esteem quite often.


	 kath

    Talk about asking the $64,000 question, Doc. . .sheesh!  But 
    methinks 'tis a great one, especially for this conference.  Since
    thousands of health care professionals have wondered this same 
    question (". . .what exactly causes this phenomenon?") and haven't
    come up with "the" answer, I'd hazard a guess that we won't come
    up with it either.  I suspect that there are a number of different
    causes for different people (e.g. what are the social factors?
    what about the biochemical possibilities?, etc.).
    
    But, to tell the truth, I'm not sure that it's so important that
    we discover "the" cause(s) of low self-esteem.  I think the greater
    value lies in exploring the question here in a supportive atmosphere.
    Or, to put it another way, while we understanding of the factors 
    causing low self-worth has some intrinsic value, I think the greater
    value comes from people being able to express their feelings here.
    
    I believe there's a great deal of healing that can come from sharing
    those feelings with others who've felt the same thing.  My experience
    has been that in order to raise my own feelings of self-esteem, I've
    first needed someone with whom I could say "I feel like I'd have to
    make several evolutionary leaps upward to be on a par with, say, the
    common slug."  And when that person replied that they'd felt very
    much the same, I began to realize that I'm 1) not alone and 2) not
    doomed to feel the same forever because, in talking to others who've
    had such feelings, I've found some who've gone on to feel much better
    about themselves.  And if they can, so, perhaps, can I.
    
    Amos' words (.1) really struck a chord in me, too; I think that the
    process of not measuring up to expectations - my "own" (or those I
    adopted as my own), my parents, my peers, etc. - has a lot to do
    with how I have (and occasionally still do) viewed myself as a "loser".
    
    I do remember messages like "You'll always be a lazy lout" from my
    father and I think children can internalize those messages in a 
    very unhealthy way - they learn to meet the expectations of others
    by being the "lazy", "worthless", "no-good", etc. that's expected
    of them.  In a twisted way, it's a kind of "ok-ness" - by being
    "worthless", I'm doing what's expected of me.  In fairness, I have
    to mention that I also heard messages like "You can do and be anything
    you want, Son." from my father and have come to understand that those
    "lazy lout" messages were his well-intentioned attempt to get me 
    angry at him so I'd take a rebellious "Well, I'll just show him how 
    wrong he is" attitude.  
    
    In reading Doc's question and Amos' reply, I also got to thinking about
    some of the other places these expectations come from.  I have a notion
    that one of the reasons that low self-esteem is such a common problem
    in this country is television.  Not the hardwared per se, but the
    programs many of us grew up with - the Cleavers, the Nelsons, the 
    Andersons and the like.  I suspect that many of us compared our lives
    to these tv families and found ourselves severely lacking.  And while
    the family sit-com has become somewhat more realistic, it seems to 
    me that much of television time is spent on showing us how we fail
    to live up to the images of perfect woman, man, or childhood.  
    
    Steve

    I rarely suffer from low self esteem now.  But when I was married,
    that's all I felt.  My ex used to tell me over (reinforce) and over
    what a failure I was at being a wife woman and mother.

    It took years to believe in myself and think positively *all* the
    time.  There's still the odd occasion when I feel just a bit too
    sensitive and allow something insignificant to worry me but not
    for long.
    
    ..dale
    

    My father was always asking questions about how something worked and
    what it was used for.  No matter how well I answered, it was never
    right, I should have thought of _______, or I should have been faster.
     
    Virtually every day growing up, my mother would tell me to pull in my
    lower lip, she thought it was too big.  Every time I would look in a
    mirror, all I could see was this huge lip, no face, just a huge lip.
    
    With my father, I finally stumbled on to the fact that he wanted a son
    that would not try to answer, but instead would admit to not knowning
    and ask for his help.  He had the misfortune to have a son just as
    bright as he was.  I am still trying to recover from the self-image mom
    gave me, not there yet.

    	I think .1 hit it on the head:  failure.  For me at least, it's
    usually a failure on my part to live up to some standard, goal or
    ideal.  And once you get in the low self-esteem rut, it's *durned* hard
    to get out!  I think part of it is realizing you're not perfect, you
    never will be, and setting more reasonable standards for yourself.
    I've gotta believe that we all do it at some time or another, so the
    fact that "wonderful" (I quoted that because most everyone is
    wonderful, in my mind, at some time or another!) go through it too is
    no great shock.


    	Another part of the problem is the trouble with viewpoint.  Just
    because others see your good points, that doesn't mean you will.  In
    fact, what you see as a fault might be a good thing to some folks, but
    because you choose to not see it that way the rut is perpetuated.


    	Luckily, I've worked through most (I hope!) of my self-esteem ruts,
    and I'm pretty happy with myself.  Sure, there are low points, but you
    can't be "up" *all* the time!  ;-)


    	It's strange isn't it, how so many times we're our own *worst*
    critics?


    Brian

    re: failure

         Is it the failure itself, or the way we react to it?  I think its
    the way we react to it, and that may be learned when we are children. 
    We probably learn to deal with failure by watching our parents and
    other adults and try to apply that to our failures.

         I think that failures are opportunities for learning (I can hear
    those groans out there).  I myself have a hard time living up to that
    opinion.  In fact more often than not I'll avoid trying to do something
    because I don't want to fail.  I've recently discovered that I don't
    try things because I think not trying is better than trying and
    failing.  In fact I have the attitude that if I haven't tried then I
    haven't really failed.  I'm in the process of trying to stop this
    avoidance of risk, but its difficult.

    re: judgments of others

         As children I think we learn to look at ourselves by using other
    people as mirrors.  We use their reactions and judgments to form our
    self images and self esteem.  Our mirrors sometimes give us negative
    and distorted images of ourselves.  I think that's where a lot of people
    get their low self esteem.  A child trusts his parents and certainly
    can't pass off their reactions and judgments.

         But as adults if we are being honest with ourselves and others I
    think we can learn who we are and what we are.  We may have to shed the
    self images given to us by others, but it can be done.  And if we learn
    to like ourselves and be comfortable with ourselves we can put the
    reactions of others in proper perspective.

    Tony

While peeking and poking at low self image,  we  may also wish to 
consider  it's twin,  negativism.  While self-deprecating  people 
belittle their own worth,  negative people have a low opinion  of 
others.

None  of  us is born with either quality.  However,  many  of  us 
encounter  the inevitable hard knocks as we go through the school 
of life  (either because we perceive disapproval  in  others,  or 
because  of  some true deficiency in us,  or simply  through  bad 
luck).   Those  of  us that are more sensitive react by acquiring
--at least, to some degree-- one of the two outlooks.

So,  the  same  cause may produce quite different syndromes. When 
getting hit hard, the self deprecating person may say "There must 
be something horribly wrong with me,  otherwise,  so-and-so would
not be beating so hard on me".  The negative person says,  "There
must be something horribly wrong with so-and-so, otherwise,  they
would not be beating so hard on me".

When getting a measly Christmas present,  the person with the low 
self esteem says "but that's all I deserve".  The negative person 
says,  "I  should have known two bucks is all that miser  <insert 
name here> is good for".

The low self image person is quick to take offense.  The negative 
person is quick to give offense. Neither means to. Both do it.

The  low  self image person craves  affection and  approval.  Yet
they cannot accept or even believe approval,  since  they feel so
unworthy of it.  The  negative person craves for someone they can
trust. While they may consciously  decide to trust someone,  they
always expect their trust to be betrayed.  When  it  is (as it so
often happens),  their  negative  attitude is reinforced and they
walk away, chuckling,  feeling more justified in their negativism
than before.

The  person  with the low self esteem tends to  have  many  --but 
superficial-- acquaintances.  Even though he/she will freely talk 
about  their low self esteem,  they are loath to allow another to 
get close enough to discover their 'true' low value. The negative 
person will make very few --but very strong and tightly  bonded-- 
friendships.  You  see,  there are so very few truly  trustworthy 
people...

Some  of  the  worst relationships can   happen  between  a  self 
deprecating  and  a negative person.  They each feed the  other's 
problem, driving the other deeper and deeper.

On the other hand (at least, theoretically), if both are aware of 
what's happening,  they should be able to counter the trend. This 
can only happen after they have both opened up to each other, the 
self  deprecating  person  fully  accepting  the  idea  of  their 
approval and the negative person fully trusting.  Then,  they may 
often  discover great compatibility,  since both are bound to  be 
sensitive and caring --often, thoughtful-- people.

-- Ron

    
    	My parents always have and still do reinforce the positive
    	aspects of me.  I was never called a failure as a child yet
    	I always had low self-esteem while growing up.
    
    	My partner always focuses on my strong points and refuses
    	to enable me when I'm having a self-pity party.  He never
    	even insinuates that I'm a failure or that I've done some-
    	thing wrong, yet I still have low self-esteem sometimes.
    
    	What causes it?  I wish I knew.  But I don't believe it's
    	caused directly by someone else in my case.  I am my own
    	worst enemy and I can bash myself like no one else can.
    
    	Carla
    

        
<    	My parents always have and still do reinforce the positive
<    	aspects of me.  I was never called a failure as a child yet
<    	I always had low self-esteem while growing up.
    
    I have the same problem. I had some issues with my husband who often
    battered at my self-esteem but I had the problem long before I met
    him. He just used it to his advantage. I've often looked back on my
    childhood and can't place any blame on my parents. They were not
    much for showing emotion or affection but they certainly didn't rag
    at me or call me a failure. Yet, I can't remember ever feeling "good
    enough".

    It always seemed that any moment someone would see what I was really
    like and cast me out. I remember being introduced to a Catholic
    catechism book and spending days in absolute terror convinced that I
    would burn in hell. 

    Now I crash back and forth between  feelings of inadequacy and
    moments where I'm an alright, can do, human being. I wonder that
    it's not so much our families who were disfunctional but that our
    society is disfunctional. Otherwise why are there so many of us? liesl

 Re:909.8
 >> While self-deprecating people belittle their own worth, negative people 
 >> have a low opinion of others..>>                        ---------------
    ----------------------------      Great observation !

   The tendency to a generalized projection is seen in the clinical observation
   that a person who has a low estimate of him/herself is likely to have a low
   estimate of *other people. This finding in therapuetic work suggests that it
   may often be more effective to help an individual gain in self-esteem than 
   to raise his/her respect for others. Because *only people who are at peace
   with themseleves in terms of self-respect can be respectful of others. 
   (As an example -> Contemptuous/spiteful view of others may be a mirrored  
   reflection of self-hatred. 

   Direct projection is a means of solving one's conflict by ascribing to 
   another person (or group) motives, emotions and behavior that actually belong
   to the person who projects them and not to the person who is blamed for them.
   Parents/Overseers et al who regularly chastise "Peter, Paul & Mary"
   for "lacking this or that" may be doing so to deflect attention from their
   own inadequateness. 

   Fazari. 

Great replies.  But it's not *just* parents and partners, its society.
Teachers never say" Oh, look class, Johnny got 2 right!"  They say, 
"oh, Look class, Johnny got 98 wrong!".  I have the old "I am my worst
enemy syndrome also" which I have had pointed out by friends.  The one
thing that really helps is 'learning to like yourself' focus on your
good qualities and *know* we are all in this together.  The best medicine
Humor and good friends.

Don't worry, be happy says alot

Meredith

    Self-esteem is the judgement that we make about ourselves, not
    that others make about us, although that may ultimately affect
    how we feel about ourselves.
    
    To paraphrase psychologist Nathaniel Branden, self-esteem involves
    the judgement that we are both competent to live, and worthy of
    living. (I'm recalling this from memory.)       
    
    -roger
    

 I'm still grappling with the causes of this self-flagellation known as low
self-esteem. It would seem that many cases of low self-esteem are caused from
within and are not a reflection of parental/societal browbeating. This is very
interesting.

 What amazes me most about this whole issue is that few people seem to escape
at least passing bouts with this phenomenon. Even the most haughty and self-
content people can suffer from pain inside. Their arrogance merely serves as
a mask to shield them from the further pain of having others know that they are
hurting.

 I can think of people who really have nothing to feel bad about- they have
everything. And they still have low self-esteem. Is it a reflection of a
fear of incompetance? Not actual incompetance, but a fear that maybe they really
aren't good enough?

 I am pretty sure that society has not that much to do with low self-esteem. 
It's not like this problem suddenly cropped up after years of everyone being
happy. It may be getting worse, though, and that's an area we must examine.

 The Doctah

> What seems to me to be the most amazing thing is that people that you would
>never in a million years expect to suffer from low self-esteem do. 
>...                                              Why are wonderful people
>unhappy with themselves? Why do some people have self-esteem problems when
>everyone around them can see so many good things about them? What causes
>low self-esteem?

Perhaps when even someone's (to them, very real) problems and deficiencies seem 
trivial or wrong by other "normal" people....?

		Helen

[sorry, not criticizing you, .0, just suggesting another facet of the problem]

    re .14, Doctah-
    
    > I am pretty sure that society has not that much to do with low 
    > self-esteem.  It's not like this problem suddenly cropped up 
    > after years of everyone being happy.
    
    Whoa, partner.
    
    Just because the problem has been around a long time doesn't mean
    that it isn't rooted in the way our society functions.  The problems
    folks have mentioned here (peer pressure and negative reinforcement
    in lieu of positive reinforcement from authority figures are the
    only two I recall off-hand) reflect the way our society conditions
    our youngest and most impressionable members in their formative
    years.  I think problems in the society are directly reflected in
    the self-esteem problem with which you started this discussion.
    
    There are some interesting dynamics at work here.  I don't want
    to do a total dissection on where our society is going, but the
    pace of change over any time period you care to examine (since the
    middle ages, since the industrial revolution, since the rise of
    nationalism, since the automobile, since the appearance of
    totalitarianism, since the atom bomb, since the computer...) has
    been on an ever sharpening curve.  This has had both good and bad
    effects...the individual human's feeling of security and stability
    in a rapidly changing culture has been severely stressed.
    
    In coping with that stress, some of our role models neglected to
    give us, the current generations, the necessary internal strength,
    (resilience, whatever you wish to call it) to trust ourselves, to
    cope with changes and stress and high-tech and love in the 80s and
    everything else we each must deal with, living as we do today. They
    may not have had it themselves...maybe the accelerations of change
    even 50 years ago had overwhelmed *their* role models...so this
    statement of the problem is not casting blame.  I'm merely trying
    to get a handle on how the forces that propel our society do affect
    our individual senses of self-esteem.  I do see a direct societal
    tie-in.  And its natural...no other era has focused so many stresses,
    presented so many worries to every individual in the society.  If
    we have trouble feeling safe and secure in our world, and inadequate
    to cope with all the stresses of our own lives, much less to solve
    the problems facing the planet, then I think we have cause to
    mis-interpret this as being a failure of ourselves as individuals,
    and to feel low self-esteem as a result.
    
    Sorry to go on at such length.  But you can see that I'm in direct
    opposition to your statement; I'm pretty sure that 'society' has
    a *lot* to do with low self-esteem.
    
    DougO
    
    

 Maybe I should clarify- I don't think that society is the root cause of low
self-esteem, rather, it seems to be something that (lately, anyway) exacerbates
that which is already present.

 Thanks for your reply- it is certainly interesting food for thought (and 
besides, I may be swayed if you continue to discuss things like that). ;-)

 The Doctah

Low self esteem is a question of what standard do you judge yourself and others
by, perfection or somewhat less; and where you see yourself and others according
to that standard. 

A lot of people have a double standard, one to measure themselves against, and
one the measure others against.  

Some people have a problem where their actions don't make sense according to
their standards; it's an easy way to go crazy!

Most people judge themselves the harshest because they are the one person who
knows their self the best.  Other people don't know the times they've swept the
dust under the rug, etc...

It's easy to get stuck in a rut.  Depression/low self esteem tends to prepetuate
itself.  Being optimistic/manic all the time is harder.

A lot of times we blame ourselves for things that are not under our control, and
think 'we should have known better...'.

It helps to have realistic yet challenging standards and goals.  It helps
to be honst with yourself: is this really your fault? would you judge someone
else the same way? is this a realistic standard? 

Jim

I have met many people at the lowest of self value. That point where
they consider or try suicide (dirty word!).

Generalisation is a very dangerous thing, but my experience has it that
mostly it is rejection by an other human that drives this low.

Feeling valueless is one of the most devastating conditions. I feel there
is but one way out (apart from the negative ones) and that is the hand/shoulder/
arms (or whatever) of someone who cares. It doesn't have to be an old friend
or even someone previously close, just someone who cares there and then
(in 'real time'), actually anyone of us can do it for any other if we tried.

...Trevor

    I think low self-esteem is largely due to the way people treat
    differences in others.  We tend to think that if someone is
    different, they're wrong or bad.  Well, everyone is different.
    So everyone is often subjected to some sort of inacceptance,
    criticism, negative feedback, rejection, and so on.  We tell them
    they need to improve.  Like someone else said, we focus on the
    answers someone got wrong, not on the ones they got right.
    
    If we could make the best of people's good qualities, and not dwell
    on what's "wrong" with them, we'd probably all feel a lot better -
    about others as well as about ourselves.  Why try to make everyone
    fit some ideal?  Do we really want everyone to be alike, think alike,
    act alike, and like the same things?  Then everyone would want to
    be a brain surgeon and no-one would want to collect trash.  Diversity
    is good.  So why do we eternally pick on those who are different?
    We should give them moral support for what they do well, and then maybe
    they'd be willing to accept our support to make changes & improvements, 
    as well.
    
    Stop criticizing people for their shortcomings; praise them for their
    accomplishments, and support them in their attempts at improvement.
    Is this a prominent attitude in our society today?  I really don't
    think so.  I think we push for conformity.  I think we want everyone
    to be perfect, and if they aren't, we treat them negatively, or at
    least think negatively of them.  If this attitude turned around, there
    should be a significant rise in self-esteem.
    
    Paula
                                                              

<    Stop criticizing people for their shortcomings; praise them for their
<    accomplishments, and support them in their attempts at improvement.
<    Is this a prominent attitude in our society today?  I really don't
<    think so.  I think we push for conformity.  I think we want everyone
<    to be perfect, and if they aren't, we treat them negatively, or at
<    least think negatively of them.  If this attitude turned around, there
<    should be a significant rise in self-esteem.
    
    I think Paula has a significant point here as did DougO. Our
    society does push for conformity and punishes non-conformity
    harshly. Our entire school system strives to produce indentical cogs
    for the machinery of society. Don't make waves, you can't fight city
    hall, that's the way it's always been. BE A GOOD LITTLE GIRL.

    Remember back in school when the worst thing that could happen was
    to be different from the other kids? Those who don't fit in are
    ostracized and ridiculed. Every day we see images on TV of perfect
    people that we can't possibly be like. No matter what we can do
    someone can do it better. No wonder we hurt inside believing we have
    failed. There was no such thing as "personal best" when I was in
    school. There was the "standard" and all were marked against that
    standard. liesl

    control the masses is the aim of our institutions and the individual
    becomes the danger that can not be tolerated by the state. 

    I agree with many of the previous ideas about what may cause or
    trigger LSE but......
    
    ....how about some practical suggestions for how to pull yourself
    out of a low self-esteem slump?
    
    'gail
    (who's writing from the bottom of a DEEEEEEEP self-esteem hole right
    now, and still can't figure out what tripped it off :-}
                                                        

     There is a saying that the solution to any problem can be found
    in the problem.  In the search for self-esteem, I have read your
    answers. You have placed the responsibility of low self-esteem on
    society, classmates, parents, children, spouses etc., and have used
    all types of rationalization to justify your answer. I think perhaps
    you are wrong.
    
    The solution to low self-esteem is found in SELF.  People who have
    low self esteem seldom EVER finish anything they begin. It could
    be a book, a college course, a diet, a project, etc.  To complete
    anything is an achievement, and achievements are what self esteem
    is all about.
    
    To complete the Boston Marathon is an anchievement even if you're
    four hours later than the last person.  Instead, low self-esteem
    people place the responsibility of their condition on other
    circumstances i.e. weather, people's attitude, peer pressure etc.
    
    The advice I received when I was 17 was simple.  "When you succeed
    take the credit, and when you fail take the responsibility. But
    more  important COMPLETE any undertaken you begin.  Completion of
    anything is a mark of SUCCESS."
    
    forward
    
    

    'gail --
    
    One way to get beyond LSE is self affirmation.
    Not easy, but effective in the long run...
    
    Something as simple (but difficult) as looking at yourself
    in the mirror and saying: 
    
    	"'gail, I love you, just the way you are."
    
    It takes practice, and persistence, because (at first) you may
    find it extremely difficult to do this.  Eventually, not only
    will you be able to do it, you'll believe it when you say it.
    
    					Good luck,
    					  andrew
    

    I agree with using self-affirmations to overcome the feelings of low
    self esteem.  Society, our families, our friends, circumstances may all
    have contributed to our lack of positive self esteem but ultimately we
    have to take responsibility for correcting the situation.  There is
    nobody who can live your life for you.  No matter what people say to
    you or about you, you have a choice either to accept that opinion or
    reject it.  The point is - do you care enough about yourself to do
    something about your low self-esteem.  If not - you might try asking
    yourself what you have invested in feeling so bad about yourself.  Will
    you feel guilty if you admit to the world and yourself that you're
    loveable?  Are you afraid of stepping out into the unknown of self-love?
    If so, what are you afraid of?
    
    For those of you who are looking for positive affirmations there's a
    song that I find helpful.
    
    "I love myself the way I am
     There's nothing I need to change
     I'll always be the perfect me
     There's nothing to rearrange.
     I'm beautiful and capable
     Of being the best me I can
     And I love myself just the way I am."
    
    Nanci

    I am very, very lucky in coming from a functional family of cheerful,
    intelligent people.  One of our family stories involves the phrase,
    "perfect person", and its moral is that perfection is impossible --
    especially if you think you've reached it.  The use of that phrase
    will therefore have us all laughing hysterically.  So, when I've been
    exceptionally IMperfect, I try to remember to say to myself, "*Sigh*.
    I guess I'm just not a `perfect person'."  Then I can smile [wryly]
    and get on with my life.
    
    The previous notes remind me of a humorous sf story I read many
    years ago.  The hero is sitting in a jet plane, reading the
    instructions on how to use the ejection seat.  At the end, she
    realizes that there are 894 ways to kill yourself with this thing,
    and 1 way to cause yourself to be hurtled, without benefit of
    airplane, towards the ground at a really unattractive rate of speed.
    
    Life is like that ejection seat, but without the instructions.
    Here you are, rejecting method 762 because it didn't work, and
    feeling like an idiot even before you try method 763.  But it's
    not really your fault.  Keep that in mind.  Oh.  You could also
    long for the good, old days, when there were only 127 undocumented
    ways to screw up.
    
    							Ann B.

>    You could also long for the good, old days, when there were only 127
>    undocumented ways to screw up.

    In .13, -roger refers to Dr. Nathaniel Branden. I would
    highly recommend his early work, "The Psychology of Self-
    Esteem", and his more recent "How To Raise Your Self-Esteem".
    
    The first is more theoretical, the later more applied. Both
    are excellent, and eye-opening. Dr. Branden was one of the
    first to recognize the importance of self-esteem in mental
    health. (TPoS-E dates to 1971) 
    
    Dana (yah, I admit I'm a 'fan', and someone who has gained
    much from Dr. Branden's work.)
    

><<< Note 909.19 by JUMBLY::POTTEN "Trevor Potten, Media Services Manager ESDP(Europe)" >>>
>                          -< Arms around the man... >-


>Generalisation is a very dangerous thing, but my experience has it that
>mostly it is rejection by an other human that drives this low.

You got that right! To be taken for granted, to be a part-of-the-furniture
as far as others are concerned, To see those you want to be with, and spend
time with, paying more attention to others, to be rejected for whatever
reason, hurts, and reinforces it.
Amos

>You got that right! To be taken for granted, to be a part-of-the-furniture
>as far as others are concerned, To see those you want to be with, and spend
>time with, paying more attention to others, to be rejected for whatever
>reason, hurts, and reinforces it.

 Yes, this can be a problem. I found the only way to rid myself of the feelings 
of being taken for granted was to stop coveting people who weren't interested
in me and find a new situation. It was quite a good feeling to find a spot
where nobody knew me, do a very simple "good deed," and immediately begin the
formation of new friendships. I was immediately recognized as someone capable of 
good. The positive reaction of the people involved lifted my spirits at least
as much as if the object of my affections had woken up and noticed me. :-)/2

 Sometimes the "rejection" I felt was self-imposed. In creating unrealistic
expectations (the old romantic novel gives us positive reinforcement for these
expectations), I often felt "rejected" when in fact no such rejection had taken
place. I had created an unlikely scenario in my head, and when it didn't pan
out, I felt a loss, some pain. Only when I realized what I was doing was I able
to stop torturing myself in that way (there are plenty of others. :-)

 I find that I am more affected by myself than by open hostility of others. When
someone attacks me for me, I have very little problem with it (though it does
depend on who the attacker is). I have more problem with my own (sometimes
stupid) feelings and misperceptions about someone else's actions or reactions
to something I say or do. 

 I did get some mail from a woman who took exception to something I wrote. I
tried to explain. She felt I made it worse (in the next mail message). I
wasn't crushed or anything, but I did think about what she had to say. And there
may be something to it. I saw her in HLO a couple of weeks ago, but I didn't
have the nerve to thank her. I don't think she'd understand.

 The Doctah

>          <<< Note 909.23 by SALEM::GAUTHIER_A "SALEM::GAUTHIER_A" >>>
>                         -< You Are Important To YOU >-

>     There is a saying that the solution to any problem can be found
>    in the problem.  In the search for self-esteem, I have read your
>    answers. You have placed the responsibility of low self-esteem on
>    society, classmates, parents, children, spouses etc., and have used
>    all types of rationalization to justify your answer. I think perhaps
>    you are wrong.

   
>    The solution to low self-esteem is found in SELF.  People who have

RIGHT! and that is the problem, self, so how, oh great wise one, does
a person who feels bad about him/her-self improve? 

<set sarcasm off>

>    low self esteem seldom EVER finish anything they begin. It could
>    be a book, a college course, a diet, a project, etc.  To complete
>    anything is an achievement, and achievements are what self esteem
>    is all about.
    
The achievement is feeling that *THE COMPLETED* task is *good* enough. lot's
of people finish things, then, getting no approval for what they have done,
say "f**k-it, I knew it wasn't good enough" , but obviously a lack of
positive feedback is merely more rationalization on our parts and we
must pull ourselves up by our bootstraps and endevour to persevere.


RE:Doctah
 I agree about setting unrealistic scenarios but when you have some reasonable 
right to those expectations(ie marriage) rejection is hard to accept.
    
Amos

    I object to the statement that people with low self-esteem never finish
    anything.  I believe this is an unfair and inaccurate evaluation. 
    There are plenty of people with LSE who DO finish things, and who do 
    them very well.
    
    re .32:  Amos, Have a nice afternoon! :-)
    
    Paula

RE: .33,

>    I object to the statement that people with low self-esteem never finish
>    anything.  I believe this is an unfair and inaccurate evaluation. 
>    There are plenty of people with LSE who DO finish things, and who do 
>    them very well.

Exactly. However, look at the converse supposition. It **is**
generally a safe bet that people who never finish what they start,
suffer from LSE. 
    
-- Ron

    Another book that address low self-esteem is Louise Hay's "You Can
    Heal Your Life".  It also suggests use of affirmations.

    I have never really identified my feelings as that of low self-esteem. 
    But as I read these replies I identify with quite a bit that is being
    said.
    
    I think that therapy as a methodology for improving peoples mental
    health has spent much time on discovering root causes for problems such
    as low self esteem.  As Steve said it is helpful to discuss this in a
    forum such as Human_Relations.  
    
    Carla's reply was valuable to me, as she suffers and yet she cannot
    identify the cause.  So there are those of us who have 'reasons' we can
    point to and those of us that just suffer.
    
    What I am trying to develop is the ability to identify the cause and
    then drop it.  Mom and Dad were not supportive, my ex-husband use to
    call me dopey, now I am older and there are nine million other reasons 
    why I could maintain my low self-esteem.  So it looks like the world
    isn't going to change for J & J's Memere.  
    
    I read something really great in Soapbox this morning...I think it is
    going to help a lot.
    
        It's none of my business what anyone thinks of me.
    
        kath's motto
    
    I think that is the key!  

>            <<< Note 909.36 by PENUTS::JLAMOTTE "J & J's Memere" >>>

>    I read something really great in Soapbox this morning...I think it is
>    going to help a lot.
>    
>        It's none of my business what anyone thinks of me.
>    
>        kath's motto


	 Well, uhm, thanks.....but actually, I stole the motto
	 from a wonderfully supportive person that notes in this file,
	 so I'd like to thank him for helping me think that as well.



	 kath

    reasons for my chronic low self-esteem:
    
    1.  horomones - when the period finally starts, i generally end up
    with, "gee, i'm not that awful after all".
    
    2.  parents' behavior - until i was about 7, i had to *earn* my
    parents' attention, and i *couldn't* earn it from my mother.  it was
    understandable enough - my little brother was dying (but lived) - and
    so healthy lizinka (me) was not a big concern at the time.  still feel
    i have to *earn* someone's love. 
    
    3.  abnormally high standards - it is not possible to meet the
    standards i (my dad, too) have set for myself.  i don't seem to have a
    lot of "horse-sense" about re-setting those standards, often aiming too
    low and feeling yet worse about myself because then i merely acheive
    what i set out to acheive rather than something *hard*.  ag.
    
    that's about it.  2 is the big one; funny how it caused both
    overacheivement and insecurity at the same time - perhaps the two go
    hand in hand...

    I suppose I have always suffered with LSE, but it has been more
    prominent over the past 2-3 years. But I have realised and faced
    up to my fears and feelings, and I'm trying to overcome them.
    
    I have read a great book "Feel the Fear and Do It Anyway" which
    has helped me a great deal.
    
    I have also started helping myself. I have made various little signs
    that say anything from "Yes, You Do look good", to "I can cope with
    anything today" and I have stuck them in various places around the
    house, so I see them everyday and I repeat the statements to myself
    about a dozen times before I go out.
    
    I know that sounds daft, but it really does put me in the right
    mood to tackle the day ahead and have faith in my self.
    
    
    

    I wonder if low self esteem has anything to do with personality
    make-ups?

    I was talking with someone the other day about the Myers-Briggs
    personality charts.  I myself am an ISTJ (Internal, Sensing, Thinking,
    Judging) person as opposed to an ENFP (External, Intuitive, Feeling,
    Perceiving) person.

    I am very internal and very sensing - I hit the top of the charts in
    internal, and go *off* the chart (because woman are given an extra
    point in one cat, and subt in another, and sensing is one that they are
    given a point).

    When things don't go as I perceive that they should be going, my self
    esteem drops to *zero*, and I become very insecure. I retreat inwards
    to what is it *I* have done wrong, and what can *I* do to make it all
    better, and have to get it to be that way only too quickly for me to
    feel better about myself. I can not function (read not eat or sleep)
    when my self esteem is at zero!

    Yet people that I know who are E's and N's, seem to just take it all in
    stride, say well, I can't worry about it, life goes on, there are
    better jobs out there, more fish in the sea, whatever... They seem to
    just brush it off in stride without anything bothering them.

    I have tried to be more like an E and N, but whenever I try, I fail
    miserably, because I'm not being me. Yet when people look at me, they
    think I've got it all together.

    I've always wondered how does one *really* change their personality to
    be more like the E and N's???

    Re: .-1


    	Nice note, I agree with a lot of what you said.  As I read your
    note, I thought about it in terms of myself and people I know.  I used
    to be quite inflexible, in both my thinking and behavior (one tends to
    reflect the other, I think).  I'd set unrealistic expectations, both of
    myself and others (and generally the world at large).  It was a vicious
    circle which would often turn into a vicious (downward) spiral.


    	Then I decided to "loosen up" a bit.  And I learned to make more
    realistic expectations of things/people (especially myself!).  I also
    learned not to let things bother me so much, and to not take things
    personally the way I used to.  It's felt very much like a weight has
    been lifted from my shoulders.


    	It's funny, because I have a friend who has *always* been like
    this:  nothing ever bothers him!  At least not nearly as much as it
    would have bothered me.  It drove me crazy, because I'd ask him why it
    is that things didn't bother him.  He'd say, "I don't know, it's just
    the way I am."  Lotta good that did *me*!  ;-)  I think however that
    even if he *had* been able to describe it, it wouldn't have done me any
    good:  I think this is one of those things that each person must find
    in their own way and in their own time.


    	Bottom line:  "Roll with it" or "Bend, don't break".


    Brian

.-1>    	Bottom line:  "Roll with it" or "Bend, don't break".

    For some reason this reminds me of the line from "Crimes and
    Misdemeanors": "If it bends, it's funny, if it breaks, it's not
    funny."

    It begs an interesting analogy, actually.

    Re .40:
    
    The way you used the phrase "retreat inward" really struck me.  I think
    there's a relationship between the context in which you used "retreat
    inward" and being "Internal".   If I remember correctly, I'm an INFP,
    so I think maybe whatever makes us "internal" also makes us have low
    self esteem or low levels of confidence.  (Actually, I differentiate
    between self esteem and self confidence; I like myself so my
    self-esteem must be alright, but in social situations I have low
    self-confidence.)
    
    Lately I've noticed that around certain people or situations I withdraw
    into myself, then of course my self-confidence in dealing with people
    drops.  I look at this as two symptoms caused by the same thing - not
    sure exactly what.  For me, it seems to be rooted in the fact that the only
    way to be able to live around my mother is to totally withdraw and let
    her run everything.  Unfortunately, then that carries over into dealing
    with everyone else.  Consequently, there are only rare occassions when
    I've really let me be myself.  
    
    If you can pinpoint certain things that cause you to "retreat inward"
    then that may also be what makes you an internal person.  For me,
    noticing what makes me withdraw was a big step forward.  I don't *need*
    to withdraw anymore, and I can enjoy letting me be myself more of the
    time, instead of stiffling it.

re: 12...


>The one thing that really helps is 'learning to like yourself'
>focus on your good qualities and *know* we are all in this together.
>                                                  Meredith

   ....and to spend some time with others in order to realize 
 our "unique problem"..is really something shared to different
 degrees by Everyone.

SD

    Re.8  >> ..negative people have a low opinion of others..
    
      To have one's virtues acknowledged, and one's self-love thus
    vindicated is to experience *status. Such elavation has survival-value
    for it indicates to the person that he is for the time being at least ,
    secure and successful - not only in his dealings with the physical
    world, but what is harder to achieve, in his dealings with the social
    world where other egos, too are clamoring for recognition.
    Egoism in human nature is, then, a sine qua non existence. Its social
    manisfestation is the need for status. 
    
    The problem is that some people manage to achieve "status" at the
    expense of others. 
    Not everyone can be on  "top". Not everyone wants to be. But most people
    want to be higher on the status ladder than they are. 
    "This hunger" writes G. Murphy  ( author of "In the Minds of Men") 
    "operates like a vitamin defieciency"  The hunger for status is matched
    by a haunting fear that one's status may not be secure. 
    The effort to maintain a precarious position can bring with it an
    almost reflex disparagement of others.
    
    The writer Asch gives one such example..
    
    "The easiest idea to sell anyone is that he/she is better than someone
     else.  Those with a strong craving for `superiority' rest their 
     salemanship on this type of `superior/inferior' appeals. 
     Snobbery is a way of clutching at one's `status'.  
     By drawing  attention to those in a certain group (as being `less') 
     they are able to derive from *comparison a MODICUM OF SELF-ESTEEM..."