Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    How old is your fiance?  That has a lot to do with things, the
    younger they are, the less responsibility they have learned (IMHO).
    
    If your fiance is good to you in every other way, you will have
    to learn to compromise on the little things, or else they will drive
    you crazy.  Either that, or postpone the wedding a while ....
    
    If you had married him without first living with him, think of the
    shock you'd have been in for .... but everyone is *different* and
    if you love him, then it's worth it to try and work things out.
    
    My ex-boyfriend was really neat around the house until he got sick.
    Then when he was sick, he pulled the same stunts that yours did.
     I spent precious hours picking up after him, but all the other
    things he did for me far outweighed this inconvenience.  Get in
    the habit of checking the appliances before you go out.  Don't tell
    him, just do it for your own piece of mind.  As for picking up after
    himself, he's going to have to learn that on his own.  No amount
    of complaining and b*tching is going to get him motivated.  It's
    just going to drive him away.
    
    Maybe you'll see during this living-together period that you just
    aren't suited for one another.  Don't feel *obligated* to go through
    with the wedding if you are certain that you can't live with this
    person for the rest of your life.  It isn't worth the pain.  You
    can never *change* people, they have to *want* to change, out of
    consideration or just out of learning themselves that there are
    things they must compromise on in order to have a nice environment
    to live and love in!
    
    Good luck ....
    
    Tammi 

Next time Ol' Slob Face throws the "living with mother" in your face, tell him 
that if he wanted a "professional MAID" to tidy up for him, he chose the wrong 
person.

Of course, in any relationship there is compromise, but enough is enough.  When 
my husband and I started living together you could say I/we laid down the ground
rules:

1.  We both work outside the house and we will both work "Inside" the house as 
well.

2.  Either he closes the toilet seat when he is finished or someone just might 
accidently "slam" it down on Ol' Willie.

3.  A pig lives in a barn, not in a house.

etc.....

Now keep in mind we discussed this with a sense of humor and we've managed to
live by these so called rules just fine. (10 years in April). 

I think your boyfriend is a classic example of "Mom did everything" for him and
he has no idea what it is like to take responsibility for himself. 

Either you will have to lay down some rules or you will have to accept him for 
what he is because if you don't he will drive you nuts...


Good Luck.

>2.  Either he closes the toilet seat when he is finished or someone just might 
>accidently "slam" it down on Ol' Willie.


	 Do you leave it up for him?




	 Living with someone means compromise.  No one should have to
	 put up with all that .0 does (and others).  But no one can be
	 expected to totally change to another person's ideals.


	 kath

    I symperthise - with the kitchen bit, when I moved in with my husband,
    we shared the cooking and washing up (supposedly!).  When he cooked,
    I washed up, when I cook, he washes up.  Unfortunately this hasn't
    happened - but we are getting there.  I found that whoever cooked,
    I ended up washing up!! My husband says the same things as your
    boyfriend - Don't do that I'll do it later.  Does he mean three
    hours later, three weeks or months?  Well to be honest I put my
    foot down, I tried leaving it, until he did it - nope I couldn't
    stand it.  So I refused to cook, on the basis that pots were always
    dirty.  I went out and bought plastic knives and forks, and paper
    plates.  Well of course he hated it, and now he tends to do it.
     With a little push.  But, I found nagging definately didn't work...
    Try and think something amusing up - but that gets the points across..
    
    Sarah

Men don't put the toilet seat down unless they have a desire to use it that way.
You should be thankful that he doesn't leave it down and get it all wet.

As for the iron, maybe it should be replaced with a new one that shuts itself
off when it is left alone for too long.

Now I don't want it to sound like I am taking the guy's side, after all, I'm
a neat person.  (You seldom find clothes on the floor of my house, even in my
bedroom.)  But there does need to be some compromise.  The two of you will have
to learn to live together, to think a little about how the other will feel about
something that you do, and work on changing habits to arrive at a happy medium.
Don't expect him to conform completely to your ideals.

    
    Someone who refuses to take responsibility for their actions may not be
    mature enough to sustain a marriage relationship.  Think carefully
    before taking that step.
    
    To work on the current situation you might say to him "When you
    (leave an appliance on or whatever action causes you concern), I
    get very worried that (....fill in your reaction).  I want to be
    your partner in life, not a nag".  By calmly presenting your concerns
    it could open a dialogue that will lead to a win/win situation.   
    
    

    I believe it was Tolstoy who said something like "Any idiot can
    survive a crisis; it's the day-to-day living that wears one down."
    I think that's particularly true for people living together and/or
    marriage and I believe you're looking at a problem which, failing
    satisfactory resolution, can tear a marriage apart.  One of the 
    oldest clich�s in counseling is "It wasn't any major event. . .it
    was the little things building up over time that broke us up."
    
    I agree with the idea others have mentioned that living together 
    sucessfully is a matter of work and compromise.  To that I'd add
    that much of the work has to do with reaching mutually agreeable 
    rules of living:  how clean is clean enough?  when is "soon"? and
    the like.  It sounds to me that the problem that underlies your
    finac�s messy/forgetful behaviors is that there's no process of
    working towards compromise.  But this much you apparently already
    know.  
    
    So how do you change this situation?  At the risk of appearing to
    make light of your plight (and, having been through something 
    similiar, I know how painful and difficult this can be), there's
    good news and bad news:  the good news is that the answer's simple;
    the bad news is that it isn't easy.  I think the "solution" is
    as simple and difficult as establishing good two-way communication.
    What I think needs to take place is you honestly expressing your
    needs and desires while listens then vice versa.  And each person
    must be willing to look inside themselves honestly and ask the question
    "What am I willing to change in order to live with this other person
    and what is non-negotiable?"
    
    As a suggestion, I'd offer the following: ask your fianc� for some
    specific time to sit and talk about "rules" for living together.
    When that time comes, try to stay focused how *you* feel and what
    your needs are for living with a person (any person - this process
    applies equally to roommates and lovers).  Try to be as specific
    as possible about how you define cleanliness and timliness and
    how you feel about the division of labor.  I think the more you
    can stay focused on your needs and away from an I-don't-like-it-
    when-you-do-such-and-such approach, the more likely it will be that
    he'll listen carefully to you.  For example, "I need to feel certain
    when I go out that the appliances are all turned off" is somewhat
    less threatening to hear than "You drive me crazy when you leave 
    the oven or iron on when we go out."  In all of this I think it's 
    important to remember that you have the right to live in the home 
    environment of your choosing and making.  So does he and the next
    step is to get him to articulate his needs and desires.
    
    While I believe this process pretty much always "works", it doesn't
    always yield an instantly "happy" solution.  Honest, open communication
    is a risky business and sometimes the net result is to highlight diff-
    erences that are unreconcilable.  "The Odd Couple" looks funny on
    stage, but living it isn't and this process can highlight the fact
    that one person (or both) doesn't want to make some changes.  There
    exists the risk that you'll learn that his definition of "love"
    doesn't include the willingless to compromise some in order to see
    that enough of both of your needs are met.
    
    Another pitfall is that he's very likely to feel defensive about
    the discussion (like "Mom" is hounding him to clean up his room).
    It's for this reason that I think that you should try as much as
    possible to stay focused on what *your* needs and desires are for 
    a living environment.  This allows him to room to state whether his
    needs and desires are similar and whether he's willing to make some
    effort to meet you in compromise.  One other trap is that you'll
    be doing this retroactively.  That is, he's already moved in and
    it probably would have been easier to have the discussions before
    he arrived.  The trap now is that he may want to say something like
    "Hey - why didn't you say something *before* I moved in."  While I'd
    be real tempted to answer "Hey, why didn't you tell me you liked 
    living in the Newark city dump before *you* moved in here?", I'd 
    suggest that such a comeback won't do much to help the talk.  Maybe
    a better reply would be, "Perhaps we should have had this discussion
    beforehand, but we don't have that luxury now; I think all we can
    do is take the situation as we have it today and try to work it
    through together as best we can."
    
    And it's not always possible to make the process work by yourselves.  
    It's worth it to try having the discussion by yourselves, but if one 
    or both of you walk away feeling like a "loser", I'd suggest seeking 
    a third party.  Yes, I know that may sound "frivolous"; people often 
    think that counseling is something to seek only in life-or-death 
    situations.  First, I think that's a counterproductive notion of
    what counseling is all about.  I feel that a counsellor is to people
    what a mechanic is to a car - someone who can make it work better.
    (And, btw, just as you may have to shop around a bit for a good
    mechanic, the right counsellor for you may take some hunting.)  In
    the second place, it seems to me that there are issues lying beneath
    the surface (messiness) that are more than just annoying.  It looks
    to me like you're confronting things like equality and willingness
    to compromise in your relationship and these are issues that *have*
    been a matter of life and death for many marriages.
    
    Best of luck (and let us know how it's going).
    
    Steve
    

    
    Re: .0
    
    And to think that you are about (?) to enter into an agreement to spend
    the rest of your life with this person, until DEATH DO YOU APART..!!?!?
    
    You might want to take a good look at the whole situation.
    
    Good luck...!!!
    
    BTW, who is cooking the turkey...???    :-)
    
    
    

I have a question for .0. Based on her reply, I will be able to 
offer the advice she seeks:

Hypothetically, assume that your fiance will NEVER improve, that he 
will ALWAYS be untidy, leave cloths on the floor and dishes in the 
sink. That he will ALWAYS be forgetful, leave the vacuum cleaner on 
and the heating off.

Based on that assumption, do you still want to marry the guy, live
with him forever after or, at least, until death do you part? Do his 
other qualities compensate? Is he fun to be with, good in various 
situations?

See? You don't really need our advice, after all.

-- Ron

All I can say is, read the book PERSONALITY PLUS by Florence Littauer.  In the
book, she discusses 4 major personalities.  Your fiance fits into the first one
very acurately!  I think I can even pin yours.  But, it tells you how the other
person thinks based on their personality and how you should deal with it. It
also tells the person how to deal with their weaknesses (after pointing them out
as weaknesses). 

It's an excellent book.

Fleming H. Revell Company - Publishers


I attended a seminar she gave last weekend and she ran down her personality and
her husband's.  It is incredible how opposite they are.  It caused them problems
for the first 15 years of marriage.  Once they discovered this concept, they
learned how to deal with each other and work together.  They now say they are
the happiest they've ever been.  They've been married over 30 years now.

Good luck.

Ln

    		To thank you and answer a few questions

I'd like to take this opportunity to thank all of you who replied, answer 
a few questions and clear up a few misunderstandings.

I'll go in order of replies.

First of all, .1 asked the age of my fiance.  He'll be 28 soon and has been 
on his own for about 10 years now.  As far as being good to me, in most 
ways he is.  For instance, before making plans with his friends, he always 
makes sure we don't have any other plans.  He also buys me flowers quite 
frequently.  I do try to compromise as much as I can, I've stopped telling 
him how much these things bother me and I think he's noticed a difference 
that I'm not as much of a nag any more.  By the way, he's gotten better at 
closing drawers and puting the toilet seat down! ;-)  He also hasn't left 
the iron or stove on since I flipped out on him.

.2 stated that she things he is an example of "Mom did everything" for him. 
Well, I talked to him mother over Thanksgiving weekend and she said that 
she didn't do anything for him as far as picking up his stuff was 
concerned, and she feels that he's probably thinking, "I had to do it by 
myself when I lived with my mother, now I have my *woman* to do it for me". 
I've talked to him about this, and he said that it wasn't that way at all.  
He didn't pick up his stuff when he lived at home either.

To quote .6

> To work on the current situation you might say to him "When you (leave an 
> appliance on or whatever action causes you concern), I get very worried 
> that (....fill in your reaction).  I want to be your partner in life, not a 
> nag".

This is really good advice, I'll have to try it and see what his reaction 
is.  I'll let you know.

.7 had some really good advice.  I'll have to try phrasing things a little 
differently from now on and see what happens.

To quote .9

> BTW, who is cooking the turkey...???    :-)

My mother cooked.  Thank God!

To answer .10.  You asked me a hypothetical question.  Yes I would still 
marry my fiance if he didn't change.  (I would just get a bigger house and 
give him his own wing! :-) :-) )  I guess I have to look at things a little 
differently.  His other qualities do compensate, he is fun to be with, and 
he's very good in various situations, but I do still need your advice.

Now to clear up a misunderstanding that I think most of you had.  It's not 
that he leaves dishes in the sink unwashed, I'm guilty of that a lot of the 
time too.  It's that he washes that dishes in the sink, but forgets to put 
the left overs away and leaves them in the pots and pans on top of the 
stove, leaving me to have to do it.

Again, thanks to all of you that have replied.  The advice I've gotten has 
helped somewhat.  I've learned that his other qualities far exceed his 
cleanliness and I guess if I want to continue to live with him, I'm going 
to have to except it or go crazy.

re.13
Sorry to pick up on such a silly point but.....
My ex and I had a go around or three about the 'ol throne cover.
We came to a compromise...I would always check to see that it was up she would
check to see that it was down before mounting. That's the 50/50 of a 
relationship.

-j

    In re left overs. One suggestion is to get a cat. Any food left
    around unguarded on table or stove will be assumed by any self
    respecting cat to have been left out for its consumption. The presence
    of 4 cats in our family goes a long way towards eliminating food
    being left out by family members. Also you might gently point out
    that food left for any period of time will spoil, either making
    someone sick when they try and eat it, or wasting the food.
    
    We generally package left overs as we clear the table. Is that
    a possibility for you?
    
    Bonnie

    
    	There is nothing that disgusts me more than the thought of a 
    	cat slinking around countertops and stoves eating food.  With
    	a sloppy boyfriend and a cat slithering around scavenging all
    	the leftover food, her household would be ... well, ish.
    
    	IMO, of course.
    
    	Carla
    

    Carla,
    
    I was assuming that he would find it so 'ish' that he'd put the 
    food away. That is what we do.
    
    Bonnie

You might have to borrow Bonnie's cats - mine doesn't even think of walking
on counters or tables.


Unfortunately, little problems like a difference in tolerance (or definition)
of neatness can drive a wedge between a couple that is very hard to remove.

				Steve

    In our household, the operative rule is: "Only dead cats walk
    on the counter or stovetop." :-)
    
    --- jerry

    re .0
    i'm a slob, too.  my mom is a worse slob - luckily when dad remarried,
    he picked a neat-nik, but i was 16 and it was pretty much too late.
    
    all i need is nagging - someone to set up the cleaning schedule and nag
    me to adhere to it.  i seldom resent that reinforcement from someone i
    love - and a clean house is **sooooo** much nicer...

    Lots of good advice here, probably more people can relate than can't.
    
    In my relationship, I tend to be the neatnik. Over the years, my
    partner has gotten better about being neater, but lots of the
    time I just pick up because it makes *me* feel better. Your
    fiance should accept that, or learn to put stuff away himself.
    He'll learn to put his clothes away if he can't find what
    he wants.
    
    One of the things in the base note that was disturbing was
    the statement that your fiance gave you grief if you did the
    dishes, even after he said he would do them.  Rather than doing
    that, he should just have thanked you.  If he says he's going to
    do something, ask him "When?"  because it makes a difference 
    to *you*.   If he can't follow through on his promise to
    clean up, he shouldn't complain if you do it.  He should
    learn what's important to you.  The compromise for you
    is that you have to learn to be patient.  A lot of people
    would do a mountain of dishes if their mate would bring
    home flowers once in a while, as you say yours does.
    
    As for putting food away, if he cooks, and you don't mind the clean-up
    process, that seems like a reasonable compromise. Again, he shouldn't
    mind if you clean up, he should just say thanks.
    
    One final suggestion, along the lines of getting an iron
    that turns itself off: get a dishwasher!  Having a dishwasher
    "saved" my relationship.  I no longer worry about dirty dishes
    lying around, crying "Wash me!".  I don't have to wake up to them,
    or come home to find them still there...
    
    Richard

    Hi,
    Speaking as a reformed semi-compulsive housekeeper (not overly neat,
    just overly worried about it!), there's a few things I, too, have
    learned in the last 22 years that maybe can help some.
    
    As several repliers noted, establish a dialogue--this is probably THE
    most important thing that you can do, more important than packaging the
    leftovers right away or getting a cat to motivate your fiance' to put
    the stuff away.  You two are coming from very different places in your
    assumptions and expectations about "how housekeeping is" and you need
    to talk about it, often, without getting angry with each other.
    
    Examine the way you both approach things.  Getting a dishwasher is an
    excellent idea, and one that worked very well for us.  (BTW, I was
    finishing college, had a one-year-old, and all three sets of dishes
    were dirty at the same time...and my husband, bless his heart, came up
    the stairs carrying a dishwasher on his back!)  We also use paper
    plates and cups, because we know that even loading and unloading the
    dishwasher is too much sometimes. 
    
    Make it easy on yourself whenever you can.  There's so much more to a
    relationship than the housekeeping, and as I tell my nieces,
    "housekeeping is a renewable resource...it's always there."  Just
    because, for instance, "someone has to put the leftovers away" doesn't
    necessarily mean they have to be transferred to plastic containers. 
    Refrigerate them in the cooking pots--I've been doing it for years. 
    Quicker, the foods keeps just as well, and you only have one pot to
    wash out when the food's all gone.
    
    Remember that you can't really "change" someone else.  My dear husband
    of 22 years, at age 50 and with two degrees, still can't get his dirty
    socks into the hamper.  So we put an extra laundry basket in the
    bedroom as well,and he (mostly) gets them into that.  There's more to
    life than getting the socks in the hamper.
    
    Do you come from a home where "Tuesday is laundry day and Friday is
    shopping day"?  If so, remember that these habits aren't carved in
    stone, and are inappropriately confining for the kind of schedule that
    many working women and men have to keep.  Laundry day at our house is
    when we're out of clean underwear...be it Tuesday or Sunday.  Another
    hint: buy more underwear.  
    
    Have you also considered getting a cleaning service in for an
    afternoon?  They'll do just about anything, and for a small $
    investment can really help your sanity.  (Another "help" from my
    hubby.)  Just because laundry, or vacuuming, or dishes, or whatever
    needs to be done, doesn't mean YOU, personally, singularly or in
    tandem, have to do it.
    
    Mostly, talk about it, ask for his help in getting things done.  You
    both sound like persons of good will, and if you can retain that and
    some humor, you'll be going a long way to getting the small and big
    irritations managed.
    
    Best wishes,
    Lynn

    
    
    	I'll be brief. Get another boyfriend!!!!!!
    
    
    	eugene
    

    .0
    
    You knew what he was.  Like him or trade him.  You knew what you were
    getting, eh?
    
    -dwight

    Hi,
    
    I am the author of the base note.  Just wanted to let everyone know
    what a few months time and a little patience can do.  Lots of things
    have changed since I put in the original note.  First off, I've
    gotten to know him better, and I now understand his forgetfullness.
    Come to find out that when he was younger he took a serious blow
    to his head.  He's gotten a lot better with remembering to turn
    off lights and appliances (he even reminds me now to turn the lights
    off when I'm leaving a room).  He's been real good about cleaning
    up after himself, and I can't remember the last time he left the
    toilet seat up.  I could only get him to remember to push the dresser
    drawers in, I'd be all set.  I think what really caused him to this
    complete about face, was to stop nagging him about it, but reminding
    him nicely how dangerous it could be when he leaves appliances left
    on.
    
    Lori B.

    
    Why should the men have to put toilet seat down for the woman, rather than
    the women having to put it up for the man ?
    
    /Eric

    Oh Eric, why would they put a cover on it if it were supposed to
    be uncovered? There fore the default should be cover down. Else
    remove the cover entirely

    Gail

Rathole Alert!! (gawd, Am I actually doing this on purpose...)

Little boys - are taught to look first, and make sure that the seat is in the
	     correct position for which ever bodily function is about to
	     take place.

Little girls - I'm not sure what they are taught, since I never was one :-),
	      but from the women's reaction that I have seen to a toilet seat
	      being left up, you would think (at least I do) that no one 
	      bothered to inform them that 

		a) half the population uses the toilet seat up half the time

		and

		b) one should look before one leaps (or in this case, sits.)

It also strikes me as a very real comment on a sexist society that women have
it ingrained on them that the toilet seat should be left down.

grins,

clark.

    Oh, please. Do we *have* to discuss this?
    
    	Jon

re: .30

We don't have to do anything, actually.  Wether or not this note goes anywhere
depends on two things -

1. how many people want to get involved in it.

2. wether or not the moderators put their collective foot down.

So, to rephraise the implied question I raised in .29:

Why do (some) women expect to find the toilet seat down?

As opposed to looking first, and fixing the situation?

And if it is up, why do they get all bent out of shape over it?

(and yes, I have heard the "Fall in" argument. it doesn't wash - I've done
it myself - sat down with the lid up that is, my only reaction is "You stupid
idiot, look next time".  Which is a similar reaction most men I've talked to
about this have, and some women's reaction also...)

Grins,

clark. - who is hopeing for some interesting insights on why we do the things 
we do, not a toilet seat flame fest...

Ok, I will put my foot down.  Please, let's not discuss yet another time
the saga of the toilet seat.  I will return any further replies on that
subject.  Please go back to the original base note topic.

			Steve