Conference quark::human_relations-v1

	Dilettante Debutante:
    
    	Your question "What can it mean to be an individual in a world
    of 4 billion people?" and, What is the meaning of life? has intrigued
    me as well as many others. I tend to view my contributions as
    "creation", "order out of disorder", and "adherence to values".
    
    To elaborate on these points: 
    
    	My assessment is that both you and I have created many things
    which would not exist were it not for us, and which would not have
    turned out exactly the same if done by any of those other 4 billion
    people. Certainly any offspring would qualify as an example, but
    so would a software program you wrote, a poem, or a contribution
    to this notefile. If you examine what you do, I'm sure that there
    are many more examples. Are any two people really alike? Any happiness
    you create (or sadness or that matter) is your free will and not
    another's.
    
    	Now as far as order out of disorder, many of us are collectors
    at heart, some are builders. I am a collector. There is great
    satisfaction in assembling an ordered collection of anything. You
    see, only you would do it your unique way, and if you as an individual
    didn't put that particular finial on a certain whatnot it might
    never happen.  In my train collecting hobby, I know hundreds of
    other collectors who specialize only in the manufacturer I collect,
    but all of our collections are different. Mine is unique, as are
    the others.  
    
    	Lastly, embracing values such as the honor you mention of the
    Japanese women (I believe you are referring to the incidnts on Okinawa
    near the end of WWII) makes our existances worthwhile. Values can
    be different between individuals as well as disparate cultures,
    but the important thing is to have values. I value honesty above
    all with the possible exception of courage. In my dealings both
    at work and in my hobby I consistantly maintain those values to
    the point of pain in some cases. I have lost hundreds of dollars
    in sales to other collectors by pointing out flaws in my items even
    when they would have gone unnoticed. The clear conscience and good
    friendships I have created have made me more certain than ever of
    my course. Other painful things await my attention but that's probably
    better addressed on another day.
    
    							Spuds
    

>    What can it mean to be an individual in a world of 4 billion people?

 It can mean anything- whatever you want it to mean, or nothing. It depends on
the individual.

>What can mark my
>    existence as worthwhile when there are so many others.

 It is my personal belief that a person's existence can be "worthwhile" by
simply being a good human being. If you give of yourself to others, if you
exist within a family, if you enjoy anything and share it with someone, then you
are in the midst of a worthwhile existence. 

>    If I'm not capable of being an Einstein or a Curie what's the point
>    of it? 

 What a boring world we'd have if we only had Einsteins and Curies. While the
Einsteins and Curies of the world give the world it's form, the unknowns are
the ones that give the world it's texture, it's subtlety, it's shading. The
true measure of the beauty of the world is in it's nuances. You are a part of
those nuances, and would certainly detract from the beauty of the world in
your absence.

>May any
>    drop of water be interchanged with any other drop, would the ocean
>    even notice?

 Perhaps the ocean itself wouldn't notice, but the life within would. And that
is the key.

 The Doctah

    re: .0
    
    I hear where you're coming from.  In my case, the worry
    of anonymity and uselessness became the feeling that I was just
    a beetle in a box - with no impact and no effect and no purpose.
    
    I had lost the joy of enjoying the smaller moments, the smaller
    victories (I still lose sight of it sometimes).  
    
    I wanted to move the world.  
    
    I am not a collector, nor a mover, nor a shaker.  I am a creator. I
    think what I have to offer is to create things and thoughts and
    concepts and connections for the few people of the world I can impact.
    I create some order where there was chaos, some clarity or
    introspection, some poetry, some handcrafts, some music, some dance,
    some hope, some courage, some pride, create in someone else the
    knowledge that they matter even if its only via their rippling affect
    on the lives of those around them.
    
    If you were not the ocean-drop you are, think of all the other
    interconnected water-beings you would impact.  The ocean would move,
    the rivers that feed the ocean would move, the rills and streams
    and ponds that feed the rivers would move.  You would be missed,
    for that single interstitial water-space you hold supports and touches
    so many adjacent drops, who in turn support and touch so many others...
    
    Sometimes I still feel like I'm on a treadmill, traitor to my dreams
    for not fulfilling them sooner.....traitor to my purpose for not
    having wrenched the world aright sooner in my life....but there
    are so many other things I can do - give people smiles, give people
    glad gifts of self that are particular only to me, share my warmth,
    achieve something above obscurity, pull the tiny strings within
    my reach to rein in what power I can, and channel it to achieve
    small wonders.
    
    There is so much hope and courage to be taken when thoughts like
    this intrude.....and the easiest way I have found to take it is
    with close friends who treasure you.....be they human or animal...
    
    -Jody
    

    Every life is important because of the other lives it touches.
    
    I may not have quoted exactly, but you get the idea.
    
    It's a nice sentiment.  Personally I don't believe it.  That's like
    saying, "every car is important because of the lives it touches".
    
    There are billions of people.  The Curies and the Einsteins matter.
    The rest of us are merely voters, taxpayers, consumers, "the masses", and
    if we're lucky enough to find people who FIND us special and important,
    for whatever reason, that's the best we can hope for.  It's all in the
    eye of the beholder.  If no one thinks you're special, you aren't
    because in the grand scheme of things, one individual matters about as 
    much as the last ant you stepped on.

    	Each of us is absolutely critical. We make the world what it is.
    
    If we decide to wear blue, it may not matter much, but it makes us
    react in a certain way. Maybe we feel stronger and take a more positive
    approach. That causes us to make others react around us in a certain
    way. That makes other react to them, and them, and them........
    
    If we attempt to improve the life we lead, it attempt improve the lives
    of everyone.
    
    Every decision we make yes/no makes a hell of an impact. If we decide
    to meet at an HR party, we affect the lives of others for a few hours. 
    If you and I had not spoken and laughed at Steve's, maybe I would have
    left earlier. Maybe I would have been involved in an accident and
    killed someone or been seriously injured. Every movement, every word,
    every action, deed, evrything we do makes a significant impact on the
    world around us.
    
    How different would the world be if John Kennedy had decided to skip
    Dallas or ride with the top up. How different if Bobby Kennedy had
    decided to shake a few hands and go out the front door......
    
    Ken 

Well Said, Jody!

I am quite content to be part of a ripple, as long as it's going in the right
direction.  If it's not, then I will no longer be a part of that ripple.

A good standard question to ask yourself is 'If I disappeared who would notice?'
Or, 'If I didn't exist, what would be different?'  Believe me, for *every*
person, there are people who would notice if they disappeared, and it would be
different if they did not exist.

It may be true that the direct effect any one of us peons has on the world is
quite small.  Does that mean that we are not important?  I don't think so. The
effects we can have on people through other people indirectly can be amazing.

Personally, I think being a mover & shaker is vastly overrated.  Are they any
happier then I?  In many cases no.  Why bother?

I prefer to affect those people close to me, (including notes), rather then
trying to affect the world at large.  It's a lot easier, and I'm sure there's a
lot of other people doing likewise.  Trying to fix the world in it's entirity
will only get you heartbreak.  Think of Mother Teresa...  Can she cure the
world? No.  How about just India? No.  How about just the people in her city?
No.  Does that make her any less wonderfull?  NO!  It makes her more wonderfull
that she can keep going doing her bit.  If there were more people just doing
that, the world would be a lot better place.

Just be the best liesl that you can be; that's all that anyone can ask of you.

"if i say 2 + 2 = 5, that is unique... is that important?"

That's not unique, for starters...

Jim.

    
    >>Would any drop of water be interchanged with another drop, would
    >>the ocean even notice?
      
    Perhaps...perhaps not.  But if a drop were interchanged, the ocean
    would not be the same....it would be different.
    
    As for the whole scheme of things - I personally think it depends
    on one's scope.  If touching the lives of others is the measurement,
    then it may be a matter of quantity vs quality.  For myself, I vote
    for the latter.  When I make my co-workers laugh, I feel I make
    a difference.  When I can help my friends, I feel I make a difference.
    When I'm with my familty, I know I make a difference.  
        
    Someone wrote that being unique does not necessarily add value;
    true though that may be, is not value a given with regard to human
    life.  
        
    What we receive out of life is up to each of us because hand in
    hand with this is what we put into life.
        
    To Liesl:  You may not be a Curie or an Einstein but after meeting
    you in Boston, I would say that you add alot to life and you do
    touch the lives of those you meet.  [with or without whips]
                
    Kris        
                

    One drop in an ocean doesn't have contact with all of the other drops.	
    The ones closest feel the most effect and the adjacent droplets, in
    immediate contact have the current effect.  The entire mass of droplets
    contribute to the total gravity of the ocean and contribute to the
    gravity of the planet/solar system/galaxy/universe.  Each counts and is
    significant.  Individually we are all expendible, but to our friends
    and close associates we may be important.  More importantly...our
    closest friends are important to US.  A person standing on Mars
    probably can't tell who I am, but I know.  Think small.

    After discussing this with a friend I've decided to delete my base
    note. I thank all of you who have replied and apologise for
    disrupting the note string by the deletion. liesl

    I think cause and effect are always present, but far beyond human ken. 
    You've seen "Its a Wonderful Life", and I believe its true.  But there
    are no guardian angels to contrast the difference in a world without
    you.
    
    I will give you a personal example of how you never quite know the
    effect you have on others, but rarely may get a glimpse.  A woman I
    knew, her name was Soni,  had accepted Christ and started living her
    variation of a Christian life.  She attempted to convert a friend, who
    rebuffed her, and it cost her their friendship.  But several years
    later as she was about to graduate from high school, the friend that
    she hadn't spoken to for several years approached her, and asked to
    join her church.  When asked why, she said that she hadn't believed
    the things that Soni had told her, that Soni was just being full of
    herself with her new found Christian friends, and it was a phase that
    would pass.  But over the years she had watched Soni's faith grow and
    strengthen, and had accepted her witness as truth because she was
    faithful to it.
    
    You will rarely see the outcome of an act of kindness, or of
    hurtfulness.  But for every action, there is a reaction.
    
    Now, having said that, I have to say I feel that the effect of your
    existence is far less important than the joy of your journey.  There
    has never been and there will never be a soul on this earth that will
    travel in your footsteps.  The story you write with each passing day is
    your own very special one, and whether it ever reaches print, or if it
    is always your own private one, there will never be another like it in
    all of eternity.
    
    It is true that it is difficult to stand out in such a mass of
    humanity, but that is just a fault of goal-setting.  You can stand out
    simply in today's world by committing an act of violence.  Newspapers
    will exploit your attempt at reknown with a vengance.  But no one will
    remember your name.
    
    Everything is attitude and perspective.  Revel in the things that you
    have done and can do!  If you wish, challenge yourself to do more!  But
    not to compete with someone else's vison of greatness.  Make your own!
    
    
    			Icarus dreams of rising above 
    			  a sea-level fate that saddens
    			before it kills.  In a word, life.  
    			  Why?  For the poetry of it!  
    			Falling, he has no regrets.
    
    Jim
    
    
    [Well, I got in in time to read the base note, and finished my note
    after the base note had been deleted.  It bothers me when people delete
    thier notes, especially when I go the distance to write a response. 
    Base note or no, since I went to the trouble, I'm posting this anyway.]
    

    Having missed .0 in its brief existence, I may be a bit off-base in
    my reply.  However I'll blunder on, anyway.  There are times when I,
    too, wonder what difference one individual usually makes.  Which leads
    eventually to "what's the meaning of life?"
    
    As for making a difference - being an Einstein or Curie - who's to say
    you won't be?  Just because an individual hasn't made some outstanding
    contribution at age 30 or 40 or even 65 isn't to say that they won't.
    (Didn't Colonel Sanders start Kentucky Fried Chicken after he retired?
    :-)
    
    You're assuming that we live and we die, and that's it?  What about
    alternatives?
    
    If reincarnation is a reality, and we're all trying to improve
    ourselves, then each life exists to teach us something.  We're here to
    learn.  So, in any given life, you do the best you can.  You learn.
    You improve.  And if this turns out to be wrong, then you've still
    lived a good life.  You've touched others with kindness.  You've
    left the world being something more than when you entered.  That
    must be worth something in the scheme of things.
    
    There's another philosophy called sylopsism (?)  I think I have the
    name close, but couldn't find the proper spelling in my dictionary.
    You exist, and you create everything else in your reality - it's not
    there on its own.  Sometimes when people succeed in bringing things
    to them - job, circumstances, etc. - just because they *believe* they
    will get it, then I wonder, "how do we CONTROL these things?"  How
    much do we really create our own reality?
    
    Just think about all this weird stuff, Liesl.  
    
    Life is neat.
    
    Paula                                    

    I am afraid that I did not get a chance to read the base note before it
    was deleted, but I would like to comment on what I infer was written
    there.

    I can draw on an analogy from meteorology, which has developed a
    principle from the science of chaos theory.  This remarkable principle,
    called the "butterfly effect", has concluded from the study of complex and
    chaotic systems that a butterfly fluttering its wings in, say,
    Malaysia, could initiate a chain of events resulting in a hurricane in,
    say, Florida.  While it is admittedly simplistic and reductionistic to
    automatically make an analogy from weather phenomena to human lives, it
    nevertheless provides some food for thought.  Perhaps we do influence
    the world around us in countless and unpredictable ways, even with the
    smallest things we do.

    I find it interesting that Einstein and Curie were offered as examples
    to emulate.  Why not mention Martin Luther King or Mother Teresa?  Is
    science the only way in which the world can be benefited?  We all can't
    be nuclear scientists, so setting ourselves up against the intellectual
    geniuses of the world dooms us to failure.  But most of us do have the
    capacity to love.  Sharing yourself with others, giving of yourself, is
    a way of benefiting the world around you.  You don't have to be a
    Mother Teresa, either; perhaps, like the butterfly, just by fluttering
    your wings initiate unknown and wonderful changes.

    I have been pondering lately my own lack of contributions to the world
    around me.  I understand your frustration.  There is always more that I
    can do.  But I would rather not compare myself to the very best at some
    field that only a few are good at anyway.  There are things that anyone
    *can* do to benefit the world.  In my view, compassion for another
    human soul is worth a thousand times more than discovering radium or
    finding that E=MC�.

    -- Mike

    re .14:
    
    I know you didn't read the base note, but one reason why both Einstein
    and Curie are interesting people is that they were *both* great
    scientists and humanitarians. It wasn't explicitly mentioned there, but
    that's how I read it. Someone else in that category would be Linus
    Pauling. He's the only person to win two solo Nobel prizes, one for
    biochemistry, and one for peace.
    
    	Jon

    	I believe we *all* matter.  It takes *all* of us to make up this
    world.  Each and every one of us touch SOMEone's life -- that's a
    given, a fact, because "no one can exist all alone".  


    	Further, I beleive that our lives have importance no matter what
    other people may think.  That importance is intrinsic to us, and need
    not be gleaned from anyone else.  Even if the entire world thought my
    life was unimportant, still it would be important to *me* -- because
    it's *mine*.  And *precious*.


    	When you boil it all down, Life to me means:  opportunity.  If
    you're alive, there are so many opportunities and experiences open to
    you if you choose to reach out and grab them.  Moreover, the future is
    uncertain and unknown, and within that haze of uncertainty lies the
    possibility that you may do something tremendous.  Something important.
    It need not even affect many people, but if it affects *one* person,
    and that person goes out and does something which affects someone else,
    and so on, then pretty soon you've affected a lot of folks.  Perhaps
    even the whole world.  You've made a difference, just by being *you*.
    Wouldn't it be a shame if that event never happened, just because you
    didn't think you could make a difference and so you never *tried*?


    	Be yourself, and rejoice in your Life.  Try to "suck the marrow of
    life" each and every day.  And if you live your life as well as you are
    able, then you need not worry about how important it is.  Even if you
    can't see the importance yourself, directly, rest assured that
    somewhere along the line you *did* make a difference.  And that's all
    that really matters.


    Brian

    Without a base note this topic lacks a foundation but I'll place
    another brick on it regardless.  This topic has been heavy on my
    mind all day as I mourn the death of a friend.
    
    For all their contribution to mankind, those who can be considered to
    be great and those whose impact will be felt for generations, have all
    died or will be dead within the space of few short decades.  And a few
    decades after that their names will also be forgotten.  It is the
    happiness we grasp while alive which gives substance to our lives.
    Life and Death give no thought for an individuals contribution. 

    It is this termination of life which makes precious our thoughts and
    actions as they exist in the here and now.  Given that no action that
    we as humble mortals can perform will result in immortality (unless you
    count here-after existence) the best that every person can hope for and
    work towards is a happy life.  I can't help but wonder whether or not
    Madame Currie would have traded her fame and work and Nobel Prizes for
    better health and a longer life for her husband, Pierre.  Would
    Heinrich Boltzman, a famous 19th century physicist, have traded his
    contributions to an ungrateful and malicious scientific community for a
    life of peace in obscurity?  He was in enough turmoil over his fame, or
    perhaps lack thereof,  that he shot himself in the head. 

    The list goes on.  It seems that fame and contribution always exact a
    demanding price on the individual.  Paul Gaugin was a troubled man who
    suffered from syphilis most of his adult life.  He escaped his demons
    in legendary drinking bouts.  Julius Robert Oppenhemer changed the
    course of the world and became a bitter outcast who had been stabbed in
    the back politically more times than Julius Caesar.  Ernest Hemmingway
    made the grade in the literary world. His work will live and continue
    to affect English Literature for decades. I doubt that this was much
    comfort to him before he took his own life.  The only way Einstein
    escaped the events around him, which, for the most part he looked upon
    with a humble but firm disdain, was to ignore it.  He took life the way
    life was meant to be taken, not too seriously. 

    A friend of mine died yesterday.  His name was Victor Davis and for a
    time I envied him.  He was an Olympic medalist and world record holder
    in the breast stroke.  None of that matters to him now and the only
    thing which matters to me is the fact that I shall never see him again
    in the flesh.  He is gone and I am here.  In time his records and
    medals shall be forgotten and he'll exist as another statistic; another
    innocent victim of a drunk driver's idiocy. 

    I find a greater proof in the existence of God and an underlying
    harmony within the universe in listening to Beethoven's Ninth Symphony
    than I ever have attending any church; and yet would the composer of
    this, perhaps the greatest demonstration of human genius ever created,
    have traded the composition for an opportunity to listen and see
    children at play just one more time before he died? 

    There is both pleasure and misery in glory and fame. There is
    vindication for mediocrity. And there is significance to every life to
    have graced this planet. 

    Anybody who thinks that it is only the Curries and the Einsteins which
    matter is severely short-changing themselves.  If those who think that
    way consider that their lives are nothing more than background noise or
    backdrops for the "more important" lives going on around them really
    believe that, then they really deserve to believe that.  The names of
    every person, like their bodies will be dust and forgotten in the
    course of time.  Who remembers the first person to till the earth or
    dam a river?  Who even considers the magnitude of their impact on our
    lives in comparison to Einstein or Currie?  Glory, like all things, is
    fleeting. 

    The inter weaving of life is far too complex for any person to decide
    which lives are important and which are not. 

    I think about the Greek bronze smith who's name is forgotten, who
    toiled and sweated in complete obscurity on the outskirts of Athens and
    forged a helmet almost 3000 years ago. While contemplating the form of
    the helmet five years ago in the Royal Ontario Museum, I met a young
    lady.  We discussed the work of this nameless craftsman and we became
    involved.  I introduced her sister to a friend and that union has given
    the world a child in the form of my god-child, Jessica.  In her smile
    and her wonder of life, I find that my small part in her creation to be
    all the reason I need for my own existence. 

    I don't think that it ever crossed the mind of the man who made the
    helmet, the soldier who wore it into battle or the archaeologist who
    unearthed it, that this shaped piece of metal would result one day in a
    beautiful little girl. I'm sure that each of these people had, at least
    once in their own lives, pondered their significance.  I think about
    that whenever I struggle with my own significance. 

    And I have come to realize that it is not for us to judge whose life is
    worthwhile and whose actions vindicate their existence.  That judgment
    is reserved for history or God. 

    There are, as have been pointed out, those of us who are movers,
    shakers, builders and collectors.  I find that in itself to be of
    comfort.  I believe that above all these things, however, that humans
    are marked as thinkers. 

    Consider this: We are a part of the universe in every sense of the
    word. The components which make up the structure of our minds and
    bodies were forged in the same astronomic event which gave rise to the
    sun and the earth. The universe passes through us and around us
    constantly in the form of food we eat, air we breath and sunlight we
    absorb. 

    In all the time that has passed since the inception of the universe
    there has never been, to our knowledge, anything which can comprehend
    what the universe is.  The rocks and stars and oceans do not perceive
    their own beauty.  It is only within the mind of mankind that their
    beauty becomes perceived and their existence become questioned.  It is
    only through our minds that the universe can know itself.  And our
    minds are the only thing in the universe which has the ability to
    comprehend its own existence. 

    With that remarkable gift comes the burden which is borne by those who
    keep there eyes to the ground and wallow in their misery of their
    misperceived insignificance. I suppose it is the way of the universe;
    the universe is structured so that there is never a net gain.  Doubt
    about the value of our own existence is the price paid for the ability
    to comprehending it. 
    
    We are not drops in an ocean for we are conscious of our existence and
    the existence of the infinte dimensions around us.  To liken us to
    sands on the beach denies everything which is wonderful about being a
    human.  I can't comprehend thinking that way, but I imagine that for
    anyone who does, life must be just a prolonged wait for death. 

    Late night musings.  Long, but I hope it was worth it. 

    Kris 
    

    The other thing to remember is that "Great People" don't live
    in a vaccuum. Even if you in particular do not become a "Great
    Person", who's to say that your actions, or even your existence,
    hasn't been part of a snowball effect that will produce a Great
    Person (Or prevent an Evil Person, for that matter)?
    
    And if such is the case, how then can you not be considered as
    having lived a worthwhile life?
    
    --- jerry

    re.17
    
    Thanks Kris, it was a great way to start my day.
    
    

.17>    Late night musings.  Long, but I hope it was worth it. 

    	*Very* well worth it, Kris.  Thank you!

    	amy

I did get to read .0 - sorry you deleted it, Lisle. The
philosophical question of "why are we here? how do we matter?" has
come up before. Usually, in a somewhat cold blooded manner. But .0
personally cares. Perhaps that's why she chose to deleted it.

It's true that very few of us matter, as viewed in the greater
scheme of things. There were very few Einsteins, Curies or Pasteurs.
Not to mention Alexander the greats or Spartacuses (Spartakii?).
Even Ken Olson - there is just one of him. 

So, who cares? Why do we assume that we, individually, have to make
a global difference? Is **that** the true purpose of our lives?
Isn't it much more important to each of us to contribute, at the
micro level, to the people close to us? Rather than lament our lack
of impact on Humanity, shouldn't we rejoice in the impact we do make
in our micro-cosmos, on our family, relatives and friends? 

-- Ron 

    Part of my reasons for entering the base note were strictly
    personal. I'm just now begining to face a divorce after two years
    of separation. Part of the reason was too much of the news. In so many
    places in the world today individuals are being wiped out and
    destroyed like so many ants.

    It's easy to speak of our effect on the world. We are living charmed
    lives compared to most of the world's population. I'm thinking of
    the people in the slums of Tijuana, or the innocent bystanders in
    the petty wars of a dozen hotspots around the world. I'm thinking of
    the Boston woman who was shot for no reason or the Japanese students
    driven to suicide by standards of success that force conformity and
    excellence at any price. liesl

    
   Re:0 >> ..can an individual make a difference ?
   
   Winner of the 1986 Nobel Peace Prize shares his opinions and experiences.

  [..."Truly, I believe that one person can make a difference for bad or for
  good. Hitler made a difference. What a difference. I've witnessed whole-
  sale hate. The key word that I always rely on when I consider hate is 
  `memory'.When you remember the effects of hate the tragedies that stem from  
  hate this is what puts hate in perspective. Hitler and his hate are beyond        
  understanding.It's difficult to say if Hitler's hate is a unique case because
  somehow, that would absolve all the `small hitlers' still around.
                (Dr. Elie Wiesel '86 Peace Nobelist)
  "A second lesson offered by these accounts is that *real heroism lies not
   only in risking one's life but also in *defying one's friends illusions.."]