Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    I think that it's the beginning of the end of many things.....nt
    only the wall, but the Communist attitudes, the stereotypes, the
    insistence that one is better than the other....
    
    What a wonderful thing to watch...I really felt that I was with
    those folks with the hammers and chisels!  Good for them, and good
    for us too!
    
    Jill
    

    Perhaps this makes me a cynic, but I suspect that the openning
    of East Germany's borders have somewhat more to do with the 
    political survival of those currently in power than with 
    strictly humanitarian reasons.  I'd hazard a guess that they've 
    seen the writing on the wall (so to speak) and realize that if
    they are to remain in office, major changes are and will be 
    necessary.  This isn't to say that they have no humanitarian
    motives, but simply that I think they're a bit more concerned
    with their own political lives.
    
    Nevertheless, even if they're doing "the right thing for the 
    wrong reasons", I still feel strongly that it's the right thing.
    To say the least, I join in the rejoicing of millions.
    
    Steve

Are they actually demolishing the Berlin Wall?  Untill it's physically gone,
they can always slam the gates again...

Jim.

         Nah, the former inmates were just chipping at it with pick-axes
    and such.  It still stands.  You're right, they could slam it shut
    again at any time.  I'd get out, and get out fast.
    
                                        Greg

    The motions behind the concrete curtain, from the opening of the
    Berlin Wall to Glasnost to elections in Poland, are all driven by
    economics and not by benevolence.  
    
    The leaders of the Communist countries are all coming to the
    realization that they are sitting at the heads of societies on the
    brink of economic collapse and their only hope is to obtain economic
    assistance from the west.  It is the lure of the free market and
    not the lure of freedom which is driving events.  There is also
    the sudden awareness that, economic bankruptcy aside, cultural
    bankruptcy exacts its own costs.
    
    If the experiments fail and the cost of economic recovery becomes the
    total dismantling of the Marxist system, the residence of the
    Communist countries will be subject to the same repression witnessed in
    China earlier this year, and Poland, Czechoslovakia, and Hungary in the
    decades passed.  The leaders have a pathetic track record when it
    comes to granting freedoms which threaten their powers.
    
    Kris

    I was fortunate )or unfortunate) enough to be there, when the Berlin
    Wall went up.  It was such a scary time.  My ex- was in the Air
    Force and my daughter and I were only in Germany for a month when,
    one day he left for work and didn't come home for three weeks. 
    I had no idea where he was, and when we woke up one morning and
    it was just there, I was terrified.  The Air Force wouldn't give
    me (or any dependent for that matter) any idea of where our husbands
    were.  It all was so dingey and gloomy during that time.  To be
    right in the middle of seeing freedom cut off so quickly, was a
    learning experience for this girl.  
    
    In some ways, I wish I could be there now to see the Wall come down.
    What would it mean to me?  I'm not sure, but I think perhaps it
    would signal some of the freedoms I am trying to put into my life
    at this time.  Maybe a symbol of what can be accomplished if only
    one will try.
    
    I think it's marvelous that this is happening.  I only wish I had
    more faith in the Communists to be doing it for the right reasons.
    I'm not that trusting  -  YET!  Give me time.  I'm making progress.

    I think the last one out of the DDR should remember to turn off the
    lights. :-)
    
    	Jon

There is another potential sequence of events to consider.

	With the "wall" coming down, the potential for a unified Germany 
	once again exists.  Clearly nationalistic passions are pointed in 
	that direction, the people in both Germanies want one nation as
	existed before the war.

	A unified Germany cannot be part of the Warsaw Pact and NATO
	at the same time.  This leads to another potential event.

	Germany withrawing from NATO and the Warsaw Pact.

	Without Germany, NATO has no real purpose.  West Germany is the
	major European supporter of Germany, in terms of people, money,
	and bases.

	If NATO and potentially the Warsaw pact disappears then what?

	Experts are contemplating the possibility of extreme revolutionary
	problems in Eastern Europe.  

	Instability in this region have been central to most of the wars
	the western world has experienced as well as most of the severe
	tragedies.

Comments?

    I don't think of cessation of inhumane acts as a humane act, only as
    a not_inhumane act.
    
    Marge  

From:	TGALE::GALE "Tom Gale - European ACT/MI Munich  13-Nov-1989 1153" 13-NOV-1989 05:51:08.41
To:	M_and_D,Paul,HCaldwell,JLandry,Swanny,DReynolds,GChin
CC:	Gale
Subj:	East/West Germany border action

Hello all,

I'm sure that you've all heard about the action going on at the East/West German
border, and in Berlin, since the lifting of travel restrictions between the two 
countries.  Well, this weekend Anne and I took a drive up to the border 
crossing at Hof, which is the border crossing which connects East Germany with 
Bavaria (southern Germany).  I thought some of you might be interested in an 
account of what we saw...

We left Munich at about 8:30am Saturday, early for us on a Saturday, in 
anticipation of traffic towards the border of West Germans going to Berlin for 
the festivities which had been going on there since Thursday night when the 
border was first opened.  The drive to the border is about 2.5 hours from 
Munich, up past Nurnburg.  Well, the traffic wasn't to bad.  When we got within 
about 60 miles of the border we started to see the little East German cars 
streaming past us in the other direction.  It got thicker and thicker as we 
approached.  We didn't really know what to expect, but when we arrived at the 
border (about 11:00am) it was a mob-scene.  There were East German cars parked 
along the side of the road for about two miles coming up to the border, and a 
solid stream of two lanes of East German cars coming down the autobahn.  We 
parked in the rest station about a half mile from the border.  As we walked 
toward the border, there was an overpass going over the road that came from the 
border.  The overpass was full of West Germans waving white handkerchiefs and 
waving at the incoming stream of East Germans.  The East Germans were all 
honking, and waving, and spewing champagne out of the car windows.  All along 
the road leading up to the border there were West Germans standing along the 
road cheering and waving.  It was really incredible...

We walked all the way down to the customs station at the border.  Customs had 
completely broken down under the onslaught of East German cars.  The normally 
stern and slow border guards were just waving the cars on to keep them moving to
avoid a massive traffic jam.  The cars were a solid two lanes as far back past 
the border as we could see.  The border guards and police who were not busy 
yelling at the cars to keep them moving were all along the roads waving and 
taking pictures with their cameras!

Customs was broken down to the point that people could walk through customs in 
the direction of East Germany without customs reacting.  So, Anne and I set off 
into what we thought was East Germany.  I didn't even have my passport with me!
We walked about .5 miles and came to the actual bridge over the river that was 
the physical border between East and West Germany.  The cars were streaming past
in two lanes still.  There was a border guard there waving people to go faster. 
In the middle of the road was a sign announcing that they were in West Germany. 
As people passed this border guard who was standing on the actual white line 
(there really was a white line painted on the road where the border was!) which 
was the border, they were throwing bouquets of flowers at the border guard.  The
guard would pick up the bouquets and put them in the top of the sign, sticking 
up in the air.  So there were lots of bouquets of flowers sticking out of this 
sign.  We suspected that this came from the German tradition that when you go to
visit a friend's house for the first time, you are always supposed to bring 
flowers to give to the friend.  People were also giving the border guard full 
beer bottles.  The actual border was an extremely emotional experience.  There 
were West Germans cheering the arrivals on, the media was there filming and 
taking pictures, and the reactions of the East Germans as they saw the sign 
which said "Freistaat Bayern" (free state of Bavaria) were amazing.  The East 
Germans were crying and yelling and popping bottles of champagne.  Absolutely 
amazing.  Almost every German that we saw would smile, shake their head, and say
"Wahnsinn", which means "crazy" or "unbelievable".

After standing spellbound for 45 minutes or so, just watching the cars of 
exuberant people stream past, we headed back for the other side of customs.  The
German Red Cross had set up tents with food and hot drinks for people coming 
across.  They were also giving out road atlases of West Germany to all cars 
coming across.  The West German government had sent emergency money so that 
every East German who crossed the border was given 100DM (about $60.00) to help 
them out in West Germany.  Because the East German currency isn't exchangeable 
into Western currency, this was survival money as a gift from the West German 
government.  There was a giant line of people waiting to claim this 
"begrussungsgeld" (welcome money).  The Post offices in all of the little towns 
around the border were also open for people to claim their welcome money so that
everyone didn't have to wait in this one line.  Consequently, all of the towns 
around the border were packed with East Germans.

After watching this activity for a while, we headed up for one last stop on the 
overpass over the road, where all the West Germans were waving and welcoming the
newcomers, then headed back to the car.  The trip back was a little hairy for 
the first hour or so, since most of the East German drivers didn't quite seem to
get the idea of the Autobahn.  Their little Russian or East German cars couldn't
go very fast, and they didn't realize that the Germans (and Americans in this 
case) were probably going twice their speed.  They would pull out in the fast 
lane and quickly retreat into the slow lane when they saw someone coming up on 
them at warp-speed.

All in all it was an amazing experience.  Our video camera paid for itself on 
this one.  We also took alot of still pictures with our zoom lense.  These 
should be interesting.

Just a little background for people who may not know it.  West Germany has a law
which states that anyone who can prove German descent (East or West) can 
automatically have West German citizenship.  This is the reason that all of the 
East Germans have been streaming across since last summer when Hungary first 
opened part of their border.  East Germans can immediately get citizenship (as 
well as 250DM to get them started).  People of other nationalities 
(Czechoslovakians, Hungarians, Poles, Romanians, Bulgarians, etc.) would 
probably like to come across too, but they cannot get citizenship so easily, so 
there isn't this kind of mass exodus.

Some random statistics:

East Germany has just over 16 million citizens.

Since last Thursday, East Germany has issued 4.5 million travel visas to West 
Germany.

Sunday, 800,000 people crossed the border between East and West Berlin.

Over the entire weekend, 2.5 million people crossed the border between East and 
West Berlin.

There were travel alerts issued yesterday for the corridor between the East/West
German border and Berlin.  These bulletins said that the normally 3 hour drive 
was being estimated at taking 12-14 hours due to the mass exodus.  People were 
being advised to bring lots of food and water and not to travel the corridor 
unless they absoluately had to.

It is still unclear as to what percentage of the people who came across the 
border will go back to East Germany.  Everyone believes that the percentage will
be relatively high though.

That's it for this report from Tom and Anne Gale, reporting from the East/West 
German border station at Hof...

Tschuss,
Tom
                          

  It seems that even the atheistic communist bastards have began to face 
  reality rather than continue the frequent propaganda to keep citizens
  ignorant about what freedom is. Reality ->  Communism is not the ultimate
  solution for solving social/economic problems. It's kinda funny the stone-
  hearted communist leaders are finally coming to their senses after all these
  years of great promises about "the good things to come".  If there should be
  any "heave-ho" hopefully it should be given to *those who deny others their 
  freedom instead of the squeaky (people) getting the heave-ho.  
   
  WEST BERLIN:      
             [ Less than two months after their former leader Erich Honecker
 declared that the Berlin Wall would satand for *100 years, tens of thousands
 of East Germans streamed over the border yersterday as police smashed chunks
 out of the wall. ... They came over the wall, they liked what they saw..and
 they also drank at discos. Some even stayed. An estimated 60,000 E. Berliners
 crossed to West Berlin Thursday and Friday when the long-closed Berlin Wall 
 was unexpectedly opened. Some went back home to tell their friends where they
 have been. ] - Montreal Gazette Nov. 11th 1989.

            Other Newspaper reports from Germany:
  "BILD" a mass circulation newspaper screamed... "The Wall is Open !"
   
  "DIE WILT" - .." What people have hoped for during 40 years, what thousands
   risked their lives for, has finally began.. to become reality.." 

  Peter Pietsh of Commerzbank in Frankfurt,West Germany stated:
 " The situation in many factories has deteriorated and the medical facilities
   are in a bad state.. becuase the huge number of young people have fled to
   West Germany.."        

  Some physical features of the wall:
  o Concrete wall with piping on top.
  o Patrol track
  o Inpection track
  o Anti-vehicle trench
  o Guide wire of guard dog track.
  o Fencing with alarm
  o Observation Tower.

  The Wall (some stats.) 
                       On August 13th 1961 East Germany set up a concrete and
  barbed wire barrier to stop refugees flooding across the East-West frontier
  in Berlin. The wall is 45km long: 285 watch towers guard it.
  4 to 4.5 metres high and cuts 193 streets and closes 13.
  120 km wall separate West Berlin from East Germany. From 1949 to 1961, over
  2.5 million people left East Germany for West Germany. Since the wall went up
  5,000 have escaped. Since 1961, at least *191 people have been killed trying
  to cross the wall. ( Source: Knight-Ridder News Service )

  It was mentioned in one news report that some of the East Germans were 
  frantically searching for appropriate songs they could use to celebrate their
  freedom. Some of them interestingly settled on ": We Shall Overcome :"
  Speaking of walls and "We Shall Overcome" hopefully the walls of spite-filled
  apart-heid might fall too. Who knows ?

    Folks,
    
    I've been patiently watching this topic in the hope of seeing some
    real connection with the theme of human relations.  I haven't noticed
    much, if any, of one.  I'd be interested to see if this topic could
    develop in a non-political direction.  Can someone help me out?
    
    					Steve

    re: a few back (I think it's 2 back)
    
    Tom and Ann Gale,
    
    Thanks for sharing with us what it felt like....I got such a serge
    of emotion just watching it on TV, but to hear (read) it out of
    someone's mouth whose been there is really extraordinary!!!  Thank
    you again!
    
    Also, I would like to ask you one question if I could:  Can you
    tell me what you think the percentages will be of who stays where
    they started and who migrates?  I think this idea is a great one,
    and possibly the first step to a peace that Germany has been looking
    for all these years!
    
    Thanks,
    Jill
     

    Re: .13
    
    The authors of the mail message posted as .10 are not readers of this
    conference (as best as I can tell).  You can send Tom Gale mail
    if you want.
    
    Can someone link this topic to interpersonal relationships?  If not, I
    will suggest that it be continued in a more appropriate setting.
    
    					Steve

    According to the Swiss news reports of yesterday, about 2% of
    the east-german visitors stays in the west, the remaining 98%
    essentially just wants to see what is out there and returns the
    same day.
    
    From the people who came from east-germany indirectly before the
    border was opened (e.g. via Poland) several 1000's have returned
    last weekend because they felt homesick, and now could return
    without penalty.

    It is expected that the net influx of workers into west Germany
    (several 100,000's this year) will provide a significant boost for
    the german economy, especially in the building industry. Further
    boost is expected as the approx 250 M$ of 'welcome money' will
    be spend in German shops, and the strongly increased east-west
    trade because of the open borders, where west germany will become
    the major trading partner.
    
    I believe that, apart from the very strong human impact, the opening
    of the east german border will cause a major economic boom as well.
    
    Rob

    What does it have to do with "human relations"?
    
    human:  of, relating to, or characteristic of man...susceptible
    to or representative of the sympathies and frailties of man's nature.
        
    relation:  1.  the act of telling or recounting.  2. an aspect or
    quality that connects two or more things or parts as being or belonging
    or working together or as being of the same kind.  Also, the state
    of being mutually or reciprocally interested.

    Some of these humans are relating joy at a wondrous event.  Perhaps it
    has little to do with many of our own daily lives and relations to
    individual people we know, but it reinstills some hope in the world,
    and some of us are empathizing with those who live on the other
    side of the world, their excitement, their gladness, their potential
    new-found freedom....
    
    Perhaps the rejoicing does belong in another conference, but I think
    that relating things that change many lives, even if they can't
    read this notesfile or write to it, could possibly be considered
    a matter of "human relations".
    
    Of course, as defined in 1.*, this notesfile is primarily for
    discussing individual human relations, and if that's the case, that's
    the case.  But you asked, and I've given an answer.... 
    
    -Jody
     

    I agree with Jody, and I believe that this celebration belongs here,
    not to debate political actions but to rejoice for others. I for one do
    not care to venture into Soapbox and wade through political discussions
    to find stories such as the one posted a few responses back.
    
    Gail

I have no problems with the celebration of joy.  I just don't want to
see us dragged into a discussion of communisim and other political issues.

Lead the way...

			Steve

  .16>  Some of these humans are relating joy at a wondrous event.  Perhaps it
  .16>  has little to do with many of our own daily lives and relations to
  .16>  individual people we know, but it reinstills some hope in the world,
  .16>  and some of us are empathizing with those who live on the other
  .16>  side of the world,..
     
            >> Some of us are empathizing... 
    Most of us should jubilate with them since they can now move freely without
    some sadistic communist guards shooting at them like before. This should be
    a cause for universal jubilation. The wall previously ristricted free 
    movement which inhibited human relations between people of the same nation,     
    on planet earth.    

As one who often sees political changes as connected to human relations,
I'd like to share one view of their connection.

Human relations on the macro level are not separate from those on the micro.
Societies are made up of individuals.  Societal change cannot occur
without individual change occuring first.

I believe the Berlin Wall has come down because enough individuals have
adopted a new way of thinking about themselves and how they relate to others.
This is an incredible time to be alive, and one that calls for celebration,
but let's not get too carried away.

I get very nervous when I hear people patting themselves on the back,
saying our system has won.  What have we won?  Have we figured out how
to solve our social and economic problems?

What exactly is this "New Thinking" we keep hearing from Gorbachev,
and now Eastern Europe?  Is it just a political slogan, or is there
something much bigger happening?

I believe there is something much bigger happening, that we are actually
shifting from an age of empire dominated by war and competition, to an age
of interdependence that will be shaped by cooperation.  The personal
implications are staggering.  Are we ready to let go of competition
and attitudes of dominance in our personal lives?  What will we do?
How will we sustain ourselves in a world that works for everyone?

Gorbachev is a man already in the 21st century.
Perhaps we could learn a few things from him.

- Peter

>Note 900.14                  The Berlin(less) Wall.                     14 of 20
>    
>    Can someone link this topic to interpersonal relationships?  If not, I
>    will suggest that it be continued in a more appropriate setting.
>    
How is this for a link...
	Some readers of this conference live in Germany..
	This event is the biggest in their life.
	Within the shortness of time some new readers could be from the 
	other side.

	It might nice for them to see that their event was not silenced.. 
		"Like they were used to back where they came from..."

>                                        Steve
>

    Though born in the U.S.A., my birth family is of German descent; 
    my great-grandparents were immigrants.  They spoke German in their 
    home.  I was frequently and sometimes violently reminded of my 
    German heritage as a young child in the early '50s.  I was called 
    a Nazi, a kraut-stomper, and other derogatory names by the children
    in my neighborhood because I had a German surname and it wasn't a 
    proud time to be German.  Yet my father taught me to be proud of my 
    heritage, while at the same time deploring the atrocities of WWII.
                           
    Over the years I've become less aware of that heritage.  Through
    marriage my name changed to a nicely middle-of-the-road Anglo-Saxon
    name, one that was easily pronounced -- and didn't remind me with 
    every repetition -- of my heritage.  And the years have passed and 
    WWII has receded into dimmer memory as Viet Nam and other southeast 
    Asian and South African (etc. etc.) atrocities have replaced it.
    
    So I was completely unprepared for the surge of joy, the tears,
    and the excitement I experienced upon hearing about the breaking
    down of The Wall.  I found myself telling my children, for the first
    time, about THEIR German heritage.  And discovered that they're
    fascinated by it.
    
    Human relations?  Oh, yes, there are human relations issues around
    this one that may be explored for generations to come!
         
    Not entirely coherent yet,
    Karen