| T.R | Title | User | Personal
Name | Date | Lines |
|---|
| 896.1 | Encourage them! | VINO::EKLUND | Dave Eklund | Mon Nov 06 1989 12:00 | 33 |
| You should know that I place a very high value upon a good
education. It colors much of how I approach this subject. I believe
that a college education is more important for our children than it was
for my generation.
So what makes a "good parent"? That was your question. How about
if I reply "balanced support"? I tell all of my kids that the hard
part is "getting in"; the easy part is paying for it. Their job is
the hard part, and I will see to it that the bills get paid somehow.
I encourage them to set their sights high - go to the best school that
will take you.
I also stress the fact that it is much more fun to be able to
choose where you go (by having good grades) than having limited
selection. For what it's worth, we now have two away at school and
two more coming along. The third one, a very perceptive daughter,
asks whether there will be enough money left when it is her turn!
Bless her - I love it! I assure her that there will. I'm not really
sure that she believes me!
I doubt that you need to take such a stand to be considered a
"good parent". How you encourage them and how you set expectations
regarding paying the bills is just as important as actually paying
the bills, and especially the former! With most scholarship money
based strictly upon need, no child should be burdened with the thought
that they will be prevented from attending a particular school due to
lack of funds - that's largely unfair, and mostly untrue.
When in doubt, do what you wish your parents had done (or did do)
for you!
Dave Eklund
|
| 896.2 | | ICESK8::KLEINBERGER | time, time, ticking, ticking... | Mon Nov 06 1989 12:56 | 40 |
| Okay... so this subject tends to be a hot button in my life...
that said up front...
I get really torked when parents feel like they are being forced to pay
for their kids education.. My baby brother is just now completing
college. He is almost 23 and has JUST now got his VERY first job (at
Radio Shack). See my father believes that the men of the family are the
men of the family, and they are not to work or anything, until after
college. He paid for my brothers education (all 5 years), gave him
complete spending money, paid his phone bills, gave him a car, not one
drop of money in the last 5 years of my brothers life that he spent came
from him, but from my father. This was to "set" him up in life (never
mind that my brother only got C's and D's and had to retake a heck of a
lot of courses so that he could pass). For the females of the family..
well, dad set aside $1000 or so, to pay for our weddings, and then the
man of the family was to take care of everything else. For me to go to
school, I had to pay for it myself. It is because I had to pay for it
myself, that I now hold the belief that I do - which is, for my girls, I
will NOT pay for their college (or post high school education of any
kind). I will supply a home for them to live in without charging them
rent if they are going to school full time, but they will have to pay
for their education, period. If they want to convince their dad to pay
for it, they can try that avenue, but I will not, and they already have
been told, and will continue to be told that.
I think that parents have an obligation to bring a child up to allow
him or her to go to college, but we DON'T have an obligation to be
drained of multi-thousands of dollars. There is nothing stopping a
person from working 40 hours a week, and going to school at night.
or even working 40 hours a week and going to school during the day
(I went to school from 8 to 12 and worked from 1 to 10ish and Saturday
and Sunday)
If you have to work for something you will appreciate it. If you
don't, you never know the value of it.
I think its time for parents to quit being drained of retirement money
that they will be needing...
Gale
|
| 896.3 | our family | WMOIS::B_REINKE | if you are a dreamer, come in.. | Mon Nov 06 1989 13:12 | 32 |
| Well right now we are paying as much as we can for the education
of our oldest son. He was accepted at an excellant college and
is doing very well there. He is going to college the same way
that my husband and I did, on a mixture of parental help, scholarship
aid, financial aid from the college, loans and part time jobs.
There is no way he could ever have earned the money to pay for
the school he is attending. We are willing to make up the difference
so that he can attend a school that is equivalent to where both
of us went, and which has encouraged him to grow both intellecutually
personally and morally.
Next year our second son will be off to college. He also has the grades
to attend a top ranking school. Fortunately college aid programs
are designed that (or so we are told) so that the net out payment
for the two boys will be no more than what we were paying for one.
If our kids do well academically we will pay for quality education
gladly. If they don't do well academically we will support them
at one of the state schools. What we won't do is pay big bucks for
the sort of school that offers a third rate education for poorer
students at top school prices.
We will see when our two daughters get to college age what types
of schools they can and want to go to. We will make sure that they
all get the same chances for an education as their brothers did/will.
and if that messes up my retirement fund, so be it. we've been broke
most of our marriage (at ever higher incomes) why should things
be different now :-).
Bonnie
|
| 896.4 | How much can you afford? | ASABET::M_KELLEY | | Mon Nov 06 1989 13:19 | 23 |
| I think parents need to look at their financial situation realistically
and decide how much help they can afford to give towards college. If
you have a high income and can pay for all of the tuition, then go for
it. (I do not believe in a college age student not working during the
summer, I don't see college as an extension of high school life.)
If you do not have the money to pay for all of the college
tuition/living expenses than a compromise has to be made between the
student and the parents. I worked part-time while I went to school.
Unlike some theories I have heard in the past, I don't believe I
appreciate it more because I worked while I was in school. It simply
helped pay for school. I am quite sure that a student who does not
have to work during the school year has the opportunity to spend their
time working towards high grades.
If the parents can not help pay for college, then rent-free living to
their children attending college on their own is a definite help.
I personally don't feel you owe it to your children to send them to
college. But I do think a college education is important and I think
most parents want to help their children attend college. The question
is how much can you afford.
|
| 896.5 | | WAHOO::LEVESQUE | Sorry, our hands are tied. | Mon Nov 06 1989 13:20 | 35 |
| Gale- don't sugarcoat it; tell us how you _really_ feel. :-)
My wife and I have only been married for three years, and I married a good
deal of debt along with the woman and two teenagers. Despite our current income,
we cannot afford to pay for college at this point. We are willing to _assist_
our girls in getting an education. We won't pay for it for them though.
One reason is that neither of the two oldest girls are especially academic.
To my horror, the oldest daughter got less than half my score on her SATs.
(She retook them again saturday.) And my SAT's weren't even all that impressive.
All of the things that I've been telling her about studying etc and getting into
college are coming true. Now she's starting to take studying almost seriously-
and she's a senior! She will have a horribly difficult time getting into
college, I'm afraid, even though she averages about a b or b- GPA.
Another reason is that we refuse to speculate our money on whether she will
work or play in college. It's a gamble of several thousand dollars- we feel
that if some of her own money is on the table, she will be more likely to
take things seriously.
I think each child has to be dealt with on an individual basis, though some
sort of structure should be laid out. Expectations should be well communicated
between parents and children. Another issue is that finances change, and
children must learn to live the the realities of changing fiscal situations.
Our baby will be brought up in an environment that is conducive to going
to college. As a child, I was told I was going to college from the get-go,
and as such it was never really a question to me. I didn't _have_ to go, but
I was very much encouraged. To this day, my grandmother recounts the story
of when I was three. They were coming up the walkway in front of our house,
as I walked with a heavy dictionary out the front door. "Where are you going,
Mark?" she asked. "I'm going to college." I announced triumphantly as I dragged
the large book behind me. I want Kacie to feel the same way.
The Doctah
|
| 896.6 | Help isn't all financial | IAMOK::KOSKI | This ::NOTE is for you | Mon Nov 06 1989 13:27 | 27 |
| This opinion from a single person, no kids.
I paid for all of my college education. My parents did not have the
funds to help. My father did what he could to help with occasional
spending money. I remember always being broke in college. Generally my
class mates were either in my category or they were floating a free
ride from their parents. I do not agree that either senario is the best
thing to do. I spent so much time scraping up funds my studies were
neglected.
What I want to do for my children is to help them with their education.
To me that help will mean more than just money. It will mean helping
them with the decision of what type of continuing education they want
to pursue. Help them early one with a guiding hand in high school so
that they will be taking the right classes to prepare for college. Help
will mean choosing schools to apply for, help researching scholarship
and grant moneys. This type of research is difficult but necessary. I
would help my filling out financial aid forms.
How have I formed these opinions? It is what I wished my parents had
been willing to do for me. Even if they didn't have the money, as
parents, they should have lent their support to me, sometimes that would
have been more valuable than a check. I believe that students that are
handed a check year after year can not possibly appreciate the
sacrifice involved in sending a child to college.
Gail
|
| 896.7 | exit | MEMIT::MAHONEY | ANA MAHONEY DTN 223-4189 | Mon Nov 06 1989 13:59 | 26 |
| As parents of three children... we are ready to the the best we can to
get them the BEST education possible, because that will MAKE their
futures. I find it is my job to be responsible of my kids. I think
they should have the the same opportunities in life regarding their
intellect. Our two oldest daughters went to the best colleges because
they had the academic credits to get into them. I told them that they
both would have one opportunity to prove their worth. If they failed,
it wouldn't be because of me but because they failed to work hard. As
a result... both finished college one semester ahead of schedule
(saving a whole semester each) and one got two majors. Both have good
jobs and I am awfully proud of them. We paid for everything and they
paid their spending money, clothes, etc. working part time during both,
high school and college, so they did their part. They LOVE us and
respect us and DO APPRECIATE the effort we made putting them through...
It is worth? YOU BET! The boy does not have as high grades as his
sisters, but that does not mean he will get less of an opportunity...
he won't be accepted to the ivy league colleges, but there are tons of
opportunities for him, and we'll help him all the way.
My parents did a lot for me, but a college ed was out for them, so I
got mine when I could get it by myself... who cares the means? the
important thing in this life is to be very well prepared and sooner or
latter I became well prepared but...the fact that my parents did not
pay for my education does not mean that my KIDS are going to suffer for
it, or have to go through the same thing I did... time changes, and we
have to adapt to them. Did these thoughts help? I don't know...
|
| 896.8 | | CARBUR::XIA | In my beginning is my end. | Mon Nov 06 1989 14:48 | 21 |
| As someone who got out college just recently, I would like to offer
some advice to some of the "old folks" who have teenage kids :-).
Send your kids to Harvard (or other mega-buck college like MIT,
Princeton and etc.) for undergradudate education is a complete waste
of your money unless they want to go to law school or business school.
As a matter of fact, an average state university is more than adequate
for any B.S. degree as far as learning is concerned (that is why
business and law are exceptions because in those cases, it depends
more on who you know than what you know). From my experience, I
would even claim that enrolling in a university and taking classes
is also a waste of money if not for that particular piece of paper.
All one needs for learning is a good library and someone to ask questions.
Now the graduate school is a totally different story. That is where
there is a big difference between Harvard and say, BU. However, at that
level, it is no longer parents' concern. They should be able to
get fellowships or assistantships.
Eugene
|
| 896.9 | | SSDEVO::GALLUP | don't look distracted | Mon Nov 06 1989 15:43 | 73 |
|
I do not feel it is a parent's obligation to pay for college,
I *DO*, however, feel that it is a JOINT obligation between
the parent(s) and the child.
A child should never be denied the opportunity to go to
college simply because the parent feels that the child needs
to do it on their own. The way the tax laws are written, a
child cannot get financial aid by themselves until they have
been living on their own for two years...that means NO
SUPPORT from the parents (ie, they cannot live with you).
If the child is in a situation like I was, my father made an
AWFUL LOT of money, but I was still considered his dependent
(that means even living in their house) so I couldn't
qualify for anything....
Like I stated, its a JOINT responsibility...the child has to
start acheiving in 9th grade in order to get an acedemic
scholarship (I was straight A thru high school, acedemic
scholarships are what got me to college). The child has to
have the initiative to HELP support themselves in college.
New England is unique in there are jobs that PAY over minimum
wage....I worked long, hard hours for minimum wage to help
myself thru...there ARE not jobs paying more for students in
the West (Arizona to be specific).
My parents supported me somewhat....I'm glad they didn't give
me more money because it helped me value a dollar and helped
me become an adult, but I should would have wished that they had
given me more moral support....My mother would b*tch
everytime she wrote out a check to me for rent/books/etc and
basically made my entire 4.5 years in college a living
hell....nothing I could do could satisfy her because she
wasn't getting "what she wanted" while, as she put it, "I was
getting everything." All total, I think my parents paid
about 35% of my college, the rest I got from scholarships and
working.
When I graduated I got a 1/2 scholarship to MIT. You can't
imagine how much I wanted to go, but since I didn't have a
full scholarship, my parent's couldn't/wouldn't afford to
send me, and I couldn't afford to work while going to MIT
(plus rent is double what it is in Arizona)...so I went to a
state school. And got an excellent education anyway......and
an excellent job afterwards.
And I got out of college with only a $1000 loan to my
parents.
Parents in NewEngland SHOULD look into sending their children
out of state......out-of-state tuition at my school was
considerably less than in-state tuition in a lot of other
states. Also, rent is 1/2 what it is in New England, the
cost of living overall is much less.......plus it gives the
child a sense of being an adult.
But I don't think anyone should hand ANYTHING to their child
on a silver platter. Hell, I didn't even have a car until I
was a senior.....and that was simply because me parents moved
out of state and I no longer had any transportation.
Okay....I've rambled enough...to sum it up...I think it is
important for a child to have an education, but a parent's
support should be in direct proportion to the effort put
forth by the child.
And I think moral support is much more important than any
$$$$$$ you can give them.
kath
|
| 896.10 | One lazy student's story | STAR::RDAVIS | Me. And me now. | Mon Nov 06 1989 16:00 | 40 |
| Regarding .8, it depends on what you want out of college. If you
define learning as the process of tossing a bunch of books into a pot
and boiling them down to the proper consistency for "Jeopardy" or
"Trivial Pursuit", a "good library and someone to ask questions" is all
that's needed. I went to college to meet teachers and students, to
bounce around new ideas and feelings, and to live and think
"experimentally" for a while.
The classes that I took at the state university were not much worse
than the classes at my snooty liberal arts college, but classes were
secondary. Primarily, I had to deal with drastically new situations
and types of people at the s.l.a.c. It was undoubtedly more painful
than the familiar environment of the s.u. would've been, but it was the
sort of pain that I was willing to go to college for.
The quality of the classes mattered to me: if the teacher could instill
an unexpected enthusiasm that I could then carry on by myself (like
philosophy, Eugene (: >,), or simply afforded me the pleasure of seeing
a disciplined imaginative thinker at work, I would go to the class more
often and be glad that I had taken it. But for the most part, my book
larnin' was done outside of college and I still consider college
worthwhile.
Regarding parents who pay their children's way: I got by on very
generous financial aid without much cost to my parents. This probably
had a lot to do with my bad attitude. (: >,)
My college friends who were putting their parents into debt took their
duties as students very seriously for that very reason. They were
fully aware of the cost to the family (parents are rarely silent about
tuition payments!) and it made them considerably more serious about
grades than I was.
Of course there were also sleazeballs who just soaked up the family
money and drifted through on their way to a guaranteed high-paying
career. All I'm saying is that helping your kid out with college
doesn't imply that she won't work hard. Never underestimate the power
of guilt.
Ray
|
| 896.11 | another war story | YUCATN::KOLBE | The dilettante debutante | Mon Nov 06 1989 17:24 | 28 |
| Well, I was one of those that didn't know a good thing when they had
it. My high school treated us ALL as future college material so even
though I didn't want to take anything outside of music and drama
they made me. I went to my freshman year at a S.L.A.C. (thanks ray,
I like that term) with a small performance scholarship on my horn.
My grades were only average but the classes were the right ones and
music majors are judged on how they play. My parents paid for
everything else including an allowance.
Not understanding what I was throwing away I dropped out and "saw
the world" (what can I say, it's what you did in the late 60s). I
learned a lot but lost my free ride. After that I went to x-ray
school where I worked my way through, but lived free (me and my
horse, I know, I was spoiled) at home.
I learned programming during the day while working nights and
weekends in the ER. This was a number of years later. Think often of
how I should have stayed in school. Now I go to school at night
still working on the old batchelors degree. Of course, that would be
easier if I only took the courses I needed instead of the ones I'm
interested in. :*)
Did my parents owe me an education? No, and they canceled the free
ride when I didn't play by their rules. It was their money afterall.
I wish I'd taken off a year between high school and college. I never
would have dropped out then. Taking a look at the real world opened
my eyes to what I really had. liesl
|
| 896.12 | Share Responsibility | WFOV11::GONCALVES | | Mon Nov 06 1989 18:12 | 27 |
|
Parent's Money & College.
My parents decided that they were going to pay half of
my college. It was decided that the first semester I would
pay and then they would pick up the second half. That way
if I failed, I failed with my own money, not their's. Although
at the time, it felt like they were killing me, the decision
they made was the correct one.
I worked harder when I knew that it was my money that I was
spending. I went on and then got my degree. At the time I
wasn't ready for a 4 year commitment so I went to a 2 year
college.
Now I've been back in school trying to wrap up my bachelor's
degree for over 2 years taking a class or two every semester.
I think that I appreciate it more now. Luckily Digital has
good benefits regarding education. Hopefully after I complete
my degree, it will benefit both Dec and myself.
But now that I'm pregnant with my first, my husband and I are
already disagree on this subject. I feel that what my parents
did for me was the best possible solution. My husband feels
otherwise. He wants to foot the bill entirely like his family
did for him. I knew what he did in college and if his parents
ever knew, I don't think the money would have flowed so easily.
|
| 896.13 | | CARBUR::XIA | In my beginning is my end. | Mon Nov 06 1989 19:22 | 31 |
| RE .10,
Now Ray, you know that reading books does not equate to what you described
in your first paragraph (The answer is 9. Buzzz. What is the
1 billionth digit of pi?). Only idiots would read a poem and just
memorize line after line without understanding them (I have
always been puzzled as to why there are no Cliff notes for poetry
and mathematics).
As to interactions, you can simply go and sit in the classes (meaning
you don't really have to take them). During my college years (82-88),
I was kicked out of a class exactly once (it was a poetry class
and the professor had some problem with a sit-in student the previous
semester). As a matter of fact, most professors will even grade
your homework and let you take exams (provided the classes are not
too big).
Here is another reason to go to a state university to get your B.S.
degree. Most of the "snooty schools" let grad students teach
freshman/sophmore classes. See the professors are too busy doing
research and getting grants. I kinda understand the reason behind
it. You don't want to waste these folks' time on "trivial matters".
Besides, many of these boys and girls can't teach anyway.
Eugene
P.S. By the way, if you want to study computer science, I think
you had better sign up for the classes. I have yet to meet anyone
learn computer science without actually working on some machine.
Besides there are no Cliff notes for CS classes either. On the
other hand, you may get away with buying a PC.
|
| 896.14 | | HACKIN::MACKIN | Oh, to be a crazed ice weasel! | Mon Nov 06 1989 19:50 | 17 |
| In a lot of ways, I think that the kid should have to pay at least
something towards college. If for no other reason as to start
preparing them for the "real world."
I really wish my parents could have helped me pay for college; it was
hand to mouth most of the time, and I came close to dropping out
a couple of times since I couldn't figure out where to get the money
from. I worked 60+ hours a week for sophomore and junior years while
carrying an extremely heavy course load. I missed out on an awful lot
of social activities, which are just as important, because of that. I
also couldn't go to school's I wanted to, since there was no way in heck
I could have afforded them.
On the plus side of parents not contributing, though, I did grow up
remarkably fast by having to pay for my own education. I'm working in
computers today because programming was the only job I could get
when money completely disappeared.
|
| 896.15 | | GLDOA::RACZKA | down on Fascination Street | Mon Nov 06 1989 19:59 | 53 |
| RE: .0 - Your children are fortunate!
>> ... is the level of support given by the parent a negative, positive
>> or not even an influence on the young person college experience
and
>> ... I would not sacrifice family goals
Coming from a dysfunctional family I think that your wanting to
see your children grow and develop is wonderful
Not having parents around I don't know what having supportive parents
is like .... Its sounds good though!
When I was getting ready to leave High-School I knew my so-called
parents wouldn't be any help ... an athlethic scholarship was also
not possible ... not having a legal guardian a Student Loan was
also "Impossible" ... at that time the Military still had the GOOD
GI Bill that paid for Education and I went into the service ROTC
and the Government paid for my College edcation (THANKS again)
I wish at that time I had parents to turn to for guidance
not for someone to tell me what to do, but to suggest and
comfort me ... it was scary!
So I think parental support is required but how the parent is
responding makes the situation Positive or negative ...
If one is trying to relive a missed opportunity in their child
then the whole situation is a mess , same for telling one what to
study and where to study .... if, the parent is open and SUPPORTIVE
to the childs goals and abilities then the situation will be very
positive.
I believe every young person in this Country can go to College
if they are encouraged and understand the true importance.
Also every parent ought to know that there are MANY creative
financing alternatives to College today!!!
I think if I were a parent (wishful thinking) I would require my
child to own up to the responsibility of paying for his/her
education ... to me thats supportive
In California 3 out of 7 people I went to College with their
parents were "sacrificing" for them and they didn't know it
they thought everyone OWED them something because they were
always having someone (their parents) give them everything
THAT IS NOT SUPPORTIVE ... thats making a spoiled brat that
becomes a jerk as an adult
Anyway ... enough rambling ... again I think your children are
fortunate
Christopher
|
| 896.16 | | HENRYY::HASLAM_BA | Creativity Unlimited | Mon Nov 06 1989 21:08 | 15 |
| So far, I've only got one college bound daughter, and I intend to
help her in any reasonable way I can to obtain an education. She
knows I work hard for what we have, and she appreciates it. In
return, she has worked equally hard to make the honor roll at school
and show me she's serious about her education. As long as she cares,
I care. Next year, Jennifer will enter an excellent community college
for her undergraduate studies, then will transfer to a 4 year school
to complete her degree. By that time, she hopes to have more focus
as to what kind of career she wants. I am a strong believer in
community colleges and feel that you can many times receive a better
education than in a university environment--especially in the
undergraduate areas. They are also much less expensive, so, for
us, it is the best solution.
Barb
|
| 896.17 | More from the degreed autodidact | STAR::RDAVIS | Me. And me now. | Mon Nov 06 1989 22:02 | 37 |
| Regarding .13 (Eugene) -
I made sure that all of my s.l.a.c. choices were better known for
teaching (or for "atmosphere") than for research. In fact, the one I
officially ended up at (Haverford) is only undergraduate and the one I
unofficially ended up at (Bryn Mawr) is probably not that well known
for its graduate program.
IMHO, you'd have to be crazy to go to a place like Harvard as an
undergrad. No offense to Harvard students. (Well, no more offense
than is good for 'em. (: >,)
Love that "Jeopardy" answer!
.11 (liesl) -
The most interesting people I met in college and the ones I think of
the most were two ex-drop-outs who'd come back. They had exactly the
serious sense of play that I was trying for. It may be tougher in some
ways now for you than it would have been (wow! is that a clause or
what!?!), but I'll bet it's better for the school.
Maybe everyone should wait to finish college 'til they're in their late
20s or their 30s...
Regarding the folks who really had to scramble for their educations:
I know I was lucky - I just got in under the Reagan wire (and my family
is low-income enough that the usual restrictions didn't apply). I had
friends in this sort of bind, particularly at Bryn Mawr, which didn't
have much in the way of financial aid. I don't know if I would have
stayed at school if I'd needed to work a 40 hour week. IF I had kids
and IF they wanted to go to college, I would certainly want them to
have the same sense of freedom that I had. But you probably wouldn't
want me raising your kids... (: >,)
Ray
|
| 896.18 | | AKOV11::BHOLLAND | | Tue Nov 07 1989 09:31 | 11 |
| I live in Harvard Sq. This spring was taking my 1 yr old to the play
ground and met a nanny. She was a Harvard grad taking a year off.
Talked to me about being disappointed in her undergrad education since
she was taught by grad students -the profs were busy writing and
getting grants. I thought, how sad, all that effort and aggrevation
and expectations to go to Harvard...
My child will have a mix: pay for some college herself and some
support from us.
Beth
|
| 896.19 | | WMOIS::B_REINKE | if you are a dreamer, come in.. | Tue Nov 07 1989 10:23 | 9 |
| A recent article on the Family in Newsweek pointed out that many
families regard paying for education as essentially giving their
kids their 'inheritance'. i.e. they have no family farm or
family business to pass on, but they can give them the best possible
education to help them make their way in the world.
I thought this was an interesting way to look at it.
Bonnie
|
| 896.20 | | ACESMK::CHELSEA | Mostly harmless. | Tue Nov 07 1989 13:28 | 11 |
| Re: .13
>Most of the "snooty schools" let grad students teach freshman/sophmore
>classes.
Most? Depends on whether you're talking about snooty colleges or
snooty universities. Snooty universities have a horde of graduate
programs, so they have a horde of grad students to support. Snooty
colleges do not have a large number of grad students (that's why
they're colleges and not universities), so you won't have grad students
teaching classes. Don't judge all snooty schools by Harvard.
|
| 896.21 | Farms aren't worth all that much today... | ICESK8::KLEINBERGER | Satin and Velvet | Tue Nov 07 1989 13:34 | 13 |
| Bonnie... I believe most educations cost more than what farms sell for
now-adays..
I'm watching my father struggle with his retirement now, because of
funds... I'm watching me getting ready to send them $100.00 a month so
that they will have a little more to live on, and perhaps enjoy
themselves with... I also look at the multi-thousands my father just
paid out for the last 5 years... it would have set their retirement up
nicely...
Its sad to say the least...
G
|
| 896.22 | | ACESMK::CHELSEA | Mostly harmless. | Tue Nov 07 1989 13:46 | 40 |
| I come from a family of five. There was never any question about
whether we would go to college; it was always assumed. My three
brothers all went/go to a good state school (Texas A&M). The two who
are out both majored in electrical engineering. They both helped pay
for their education by going on the co-op program: take classes one
term, work and take one class the next. It took them a little longer,
but it helped enormously with finances and gave them good experience as
well. I think both went after scholarships as well. My youngest
brother took a year off before starting school, but he's a spendthrift.
Nonetheless, he works during the summer to earn money and he's getting
student loans. He had to earn the money for his trip to Italy this
semester (he's an architecture student). It's easier now for my
parents to afford to help, since three of us are out, but by no means
are they paying for it.
I was the second one to go to college and I went away to a private
school. My education was financed by a combination of scholarship,
student loans, work study and parental assistance. My parents would
contribute what the Financial Aid statement assumed they would
contribute, but not a lot more. I'm the one who had to keep my grades
up, I'm the one who had to find work, I'm the one paying off the
student loans.
My sister is heading off to college next year and she's looking at a
small New England liberal arts college. Again, we're counting on a
scholarship to offset a significant piece. (Mom's fretting about SAT
scores; good enough to get in but are they scholarship material? But
it helps to come from a different part of the country, since many
liberal arts schools like to encourage geographic diversity.) She too
will have to rely on student loans. I have no doubt that she'll also
work to earn money. My parents will contribute, but again, they aren't
shouldering the burden.
Be prepared to shoulder what the Financial Aid form assumes you'll
shoulder or else help your child find alternative sources for that
money. Financial Aid calculates living expenses, so one alternative is
to reduce those. As far as paying 100% goes, I've seen an article
indicating that students should work about 10 hours a week; apparently
it helps them learn to schedule their time. Of course, you don't have
to use that money to help pay for education.
|
| 896.23 | more than four years in college | WMOIS::B_REINKE | if you are a dreamer, come in.. | Tue Nov 07 1989 14:26 | 15 |
| Gale,
I kind of think that a good working farm would cost more than the
upwards of $72,000 plus books and expenses that my oldest's education
will cost.
My father and mother in law have very little money for retirement
because they lent all their equity to a family member who never has
paid them back, and we will be subsidizing them. I suspect that
if necessary our kids will help us out when the time comes.
But I believe each person has to make the choices for them selves
and their family.
Bonnie
|
| 896.24 | they SHOULD help... | BARTLE::LESSARD | | Tue Nov 07 1989 16:14 | 35 |
|
I'm glad the majority of people here don't want to
hand their children 4 years of room,board and tuition!
I paid my own way through 4 years of State College (MA)
myself, and my parents generously let me live at home,
give me meals and help out when things were tough. I also
held down 15-20 hours a week here at DEC while doing
that. On the other hand my brother in law got handed
a four year education at Amherst College, and majoring
in the same subject I did - Psychology. Trust me, he
knows nothing more than I do, and got quite an attitude
from hanging out with rich kids (they, like jet off to
Europe or the Carribean before starting their jobs
as "sculptors" - no kidding!)
I feel sorry for my in-laws, because they seemed to have
spent a large part of their retirement funds, and
as they approach mid-fifties, I wonder if they realize
they are going to have a much longer than anticipated to build
up the $$$$ again. They paid $20,000 plus a year, gave him a car
bought his IBM PC, etc etc.
My feeling is they wanted to do everything for
their youngest one....... my husband, the oldest, paid
his own way through Holy Cross and he is still, 10 years
later, finally getting to the end of his loans. I hope we
will be able to help our children as much as possible, but
will expect them to help out, most certainly. And if
that means not going to the fancy school, that's the way
it will be.
PS. The brother in law now wants to join the CIA. (no kidding).
|
| 896.25 | Thank you, Mom and Dad | COBWEB::SWALKER | Sharon Walker, BASIC/SCAN | Tue Nov 07 1989 17:28 | 104 |
|
My parents put themselves through college. They thought it caused
them to miss out on a lot, and didn't want their kids to have to go
through the same thing they did. Not that they didn't want me to
work - they didn't want me to struggle and worry during college (for
nonacademic reasons, that is). And they wanted me to be able to go
to the college of my choice, like they couldn't.
The deal was this: they would pay for *four years only* of tuition,
room & board, clothing, phone calls home, and transportation home for
college breaks. I was responsible for books etc., spending money,
all summer living expenses if I chose not to live at home, and not
neglecting my studies. I was also expected to work summers at a paying
job, no matter what sort of job that meant.
This agreement was no absolute, as it turned out - it got renegotiated
in a couple of instances (both ways), but that's generally how it worked
out. Since, for the most part, the only job I'd been able to get during
high school was babysitting, this agreement involved more than a
perfunctory committment on my part.
It came as an unpleasant surprise was that I was eligible for NO
financial aid in amy form from my college. If my parents had not been
paying the bills, I could not have gone there, period - without my having
'independent student' status at the end of high school, their income
would still have kept me from financial aid for a minimum of a year,
regardless of their willingness to pay. (An aside: Gale, having your
daughters living at home may jeapordize their ability to get financial
aid, too, since most colleges put a "parent's expected contribution"
into the financial aid eligibility calculations for dependent students.)
This meant that unlike most my college classmates who received some
form of financial aid, I had parents who were footing the entire bill.
Divide that bill by class hour, and it's a pretty good motivator to go
to class. As Ray said, never underestimate the power of guilt - whether
or not the family _says_ anything. How do you think I felt when my
friends were worrying themselves sick about not being able to come back
when their financial aid was cut (usually during exam week, to boot)?
Or when they had to transfer or take a year away for financial reasons?
Or how I felt about having parents who, after paying their own tuition
bills, were now paying mine? Or about having cousins who didn't have
the opportunity to go to college at all?
Lucky. And guilty, too. It had a lot of effects that I didn't entirely
realize at the time. It probably influenced my decision to double major
in a "practical" subject (or as practical as you can get as a S.L.A.C.)
and a "fun" one. Certainly it (and the need for book- and spending money)
helped propell me into a series of campus jobs which proved to be
invaluable learning experiences. (The need for better-paying summer/
campus jobs got me into computers, too!). And it probably helped
propell me into - and through - graduate school, which my parents
_didn't_ pay for.
So, having been on both sides of the fence (and yeah, I know that's
stretching it a little), I'm going to permit myself a little comparison.
Money worries definitely affected my classes - and health! - in grad
school (My grad experience was not fully typical - the grant that was
supposed to be funding me got cancelled, and I ended up with half a
stipend for a while, among other things.) I was never sure I'd be able
to take classes the next semester, and ultimately not sure I wanted to.
Sometimes I was not sure I would get credit for classes I was taking,
even though I was doing well in them. I came very, very close to dropping
out when the strain became too much, and the money just wasn't there.
It was, however, a character-building experience, and it taught me a lot.
I *didn't* know what I was getting into when I started, and I don't think
the average high school senior would, either. I didn't expect to be
financially _comfortable_, exactly, but the reality of sometimes not
having food money came as one h*ll of a nasty surprise.
What would I do for my kids? Hard to say. I'd like to do something
similar to what my parents did for me - i.e., get the student to put
something into the process, too, but not so much that it keeps them
away from their studies and contact with their peers. A good solution
might be to have them take over some of the financial responsibility
as the four years progress and they develop more marketable skills
and therefore greater earning power, to ease the transition from college
to the "real world" a bit. I'd also encourage them to spend at least
a summer living on their own (i.e., not at home) during the college years.
Certainly, I'd give them heaps and loads of emotional support. I saw too
many kids in college who were given every material object they could want,
but whose parents had abandoned them emotionally when they left home.
On the subject of S.L.A.C. versus S.U., I'll second what Ray said.
(On the other hand, it's not surprising that our experiences were similar,
since we went to the same place.) I'm still looking for concrete,
general differences that would justify the huge cost disparity, though
-- I think that's something that really depends on the individual student.
To the author of .24, perhaps if it seems like "the majority of people
here don't want to hand their kids 4 years...", it's because of who's
already spoken out and what they've said. I'm a little timid about
putting this note in here, as a matter of fact, given the animosity
that's already been displayed at those, who, like me, were "handed a
four-year education". I mean, I resemble your brother-in-law pretty
closely, although I am not currently working as either a sculptor or
a CIA agent. (...and here I am *admitting* this resemblance! How will
I ever be able to hold my head up in H_R again?...) Reading your note,
I question whether your collegiate background has made you any more
immune to attitude problems than your brother-in-law is. I don't
mean to belittle your accomplishment in getting through college on
your own steam, but I feel that you have attacked me in effigy.
Sharon
|
| 896.26 | The kid's gotta live... | ROLL::GASSAWAY | Insert clever personal name here | Tue Nov 07 1989 18:02 | 71 |
| I hope nobody minds me just popping in here for a couple replies, this
has hit a hot button of mine.....
My mother always believed that she was obligated as a parent to provide
my brother and I with the best education possible. When we received
the FAF back for me, the expected parental contribution was more than
she could really afford. (It took into account my stepfather's salary,
which my mother didn't feel should have to be used towards our
education, it should be used for my stepsister's education instead,
and my father's child support payments, which never seemed to arrive
when they were supposed to) I applied and was accepted to 6 private
schools and 2 public schools. Four of the private schools were
immediately out of the picture (too expensive), but the other two gave
me a decent aid package.
I went to one of the "snooty" schools, MIT to be exact. The agreement
between my Mom and myself was that she would pay tuition and room and
board (and books for the first couple years), and whatever I made at
summer jobs would pay my living expenses for the year. She didn't want
me to work during my freshman year because she wanted me to concentrate
on my studies. My sophomore year and beyond I did work during the
term, but only for a maximum of 8-10 hrs/week. There was no way I
could have worked more than that and kept up with my classes, which
were taking up 60-70 hrs/week. Also, I felt that socializing, meeting
people and having friends were an integral part of the college
experience, and this also took time.
I was lucky because during the summers I had jobs in industry, and this
allowed me to save up a few hundred dollars each summer. I only made
about $600 a term working my jobs, and with books running ~$200 a term,
$400 stretched over 13 weeks for food, toiletries and other life
necessities would have been cutting it VERY close.
Now I should mention that I could have gone to UNH on a four year
scholarship that would have payed EVERYTHING, but I'm really glad I
turned it down. When I applied to college I was sure I would be a
ChemE but after my first class I hated it!! At MIT I was able to
change majors very easily and choose from a wide variety of science
related fields. I ended up a Materials Science major, which was not a
major offered at either state school to which I applied. Basically,
I'm glad that I was able to go to school where I did. (FWIW, the other
student from my high school who got the same scholarship to UNH also
turned it down to go to MIT.)
Now I'm paying back all the loans I took out ($14000 worth) myself, but
it's much easier to do it when you have a full-time job than when
you're a student. If I ever have kids that will need college, I'd
want to make sure that they could attend the best college for their
ability and I wouldn't want them to have to go somewhere against their
will because of monetary concerns. I would want them to make the most
of their college years, and I wouldn't want them to have to spend every
iota of their free time working to scrape their way through school. I
didn't meet my good friends from school until late my senior year (or
after I graduated even), and I truly regret not having spent more of my
time with them because some of the most miserable experiences I had at
school were those times when I was so snowed in by my work that all I
did was go to class, come home, work, sleep for a couple hours, start
cycle over.
I think that it's pretty tough for a kid to make their way through a
private school completely on their own. And the first year especially
is difficult because of the transitions to a completely new lifestyle
and unfamiliar environment. I guess I don't see college as a "you
learn how to live your life completely on your own" type of deal, I see
it more as preparing your child for the career that will eventually
become their life. The child should hold a job, but they should not
have to be responsible for the whole thing.
MHO.
Lisa
|
| 896.27 | | JAKES::XIA | In my beginning is my end. | Tue Nov 07 1989 19:14 | 63 |
| re .17,
> IMHO, you'd have to be crazy to go to a place like Harvard as an
> undergrad. No offense to Harvard students. (Well, no more offense
> than is good for 'em. (: >,)
Well, if one decides to go to Business or Law school, Harvard is great. See
if you want a career in those fields, you will have a great advantage when
all your fraternity/sorority brothers and sisters have moms/dads who are
CEO's or senators or someone who knows Dan Quayle. That is not very fair,
but such is life.
> Love that "Jeopardy" answer!
The more scary part is that the answer/question is true. It has just been
done on a $10 million Cray 2 and a not so expensive IBM 3090. Now we all
know what those professors in those "snooty universities" do for living.
re .20,
Yea, you are right. As to SLAC, well, Leighigh (sp?) costs even more
than some of the snooty universities. By the way where is that college?
re .25, 26,
I think I must agree that parents should send their kids through college
if they are financially capable (provided the kids have the talent, of
course). For one thing, it is most efficient economically. Think of it
this way. Suppose we have two students. Student A goes through the college
straight in 4 years. Student B chooses to coop and takes 5 years to
complete. Now in that extra year, student B probably made $10,000 cooping
(what can you expect from the coop jobs). However, student A graduates one
year earlier and can start working a year earlier! Because A already has
a degree, A's starting salary is likely to be much higher compare to the
coop job (say $30,000 for the ones who go to a "snooty university/college".
Hmm, that is another advantage for undergraduating in Harvard....). So by
the end of the fifth year A is way ahead. I think this is what Lisa meant
when she said that paying back load isn't too bad when you have a full time
job in .26.
So if some parents don't feel obligated to send their kids through college,
at least give them a loan (that is if they are capable of course).
Wow! an MITer (By the way, what is the mascot of MIT, and do they have a
football team :-)). I think if you had gone to one of the big midwestern
schools, you would probably have had more or less the same education with
lots of alternatives (provided you don't mind the corn fields :-)). Anyway,
as much as I dislike the idea of sending kids to the "snooty universities",
I love to befriend with the ones who went (maybe some of the NOTE
psychologists can tell me why :-)). IMHO, schools like MIT and Harvard are
essentially graduate schools. Let's just say that those kind of schools do
have their values. I would highly recommend a potential Edison to go to MIT
and a potential Gauss to go to Harvard (or is it Gottingen?), but again that is
the same thing as saying these schools are essentially graduate schools.
Finally, my recommendations. Go to one of the small UC's. They have the
SLAC atmosphere, but they charge at SU rate. The big ones are nice too (that
is, if you don't mind "hordes of grad. students" teaching courses) and
located in good area. Also, Berkeley is probably the only "snooty university"
(as defined by Chelsea) that is state funded. Anyway, for a one time
application fee (it was 35 bucks two years ago), you get to apply to all of
them.
Eugene
|
| 896.28 | college? | YODA::BARANSKI | Happiness is a warm rock in the sun | Tue Nov 07 1989 20:31 | 57 |
| "what level of support makes you a good parent?"
Whether or not, or how you send your children through college does not determine
whether you are or are not a good parent. Why on earth would anyone want to
judge a parent on that basis? Whether a parent prepares a child so that they
are fit to go to college is a much better measure of a parent.
"When in doubt, do what you wish your parents had done (or did do) for you!"
That's an interesting attitude... probably about as good as any other. :-)
RE: GK: boy's college paid for, girls, good luck. mega bucks
I hear you Gale...
In my family, the girls got their college paid for, they weren't expected to
work for it. I put myself through college. It's a *lot* of money; and it's not
necessary to go through all that.
The real problems here in my mind are:
College is too expensive.
College does not teach thinking skills, or knowledge.
There are many jobs where a degree of some type is being used as a weeding
criteria to limit the number of applicants, yet a college degree is not
necessary for the job. Almost any significant job today 'requires' a degree,
when the actual training for that job could be accomplished in half the time.
And since almost everyone needs a degree, degrees have become relatively
worthless.
"All one needs for learning is a good library and someone to ask questions."
HEAR HERE!
Education is the one task which although the government has no mandate to
provide, I believe that making sure everyone has a good education benifits
everyone. However the education system as it stands is not doing a good enough
job providing a real education. And Yes Folks, More Money is will not cure
that.
"I'm going to college"
Ha! That's great!
The one situation where I would try to make sure that a child got the best
education possible would be if they were handicapped. They don't need to have
another stroke against them, and I believe that it's more assured that they will
actually benifit from it and not goof off.
'time off'
I think taking a year off between high school and college is a good thing in
general. It gives you time to be bored and have a yen for something more.
Jim.
|
| 896.29 | | HACKIN::MACKIN | Oh, to be a crazed ice weasel! | Tue Nov 07 1989 21:42 | 23 |
| I'm not of the opinion that you can learn solely from books and someone
to put questions to.
I think that college, and particularly when you live away from mom and
dad, offers a really unique environment that *does* help you think and
challenge the world around you. There's a lot of osmosis that goes on
which you can't pick up from books. And we all know how hard it can be
when you don't know enough to even ask the right questions.
My freshman year in college was one of the best years of my life, in
terms of how much learning and growing I was forced to do. And two
years wouldn't have been enough; it wasn't until senior year that a lot
of things finally came together. And I'm not sure if my schooling had
been done solely at night that the same affect would have occured.
It isn't a prerequisite for being a good parent, but I'd have a very low
opinion of parents who could help put their kid(s) get through college and
didn't. I was lucky in about a million ways and could afford to put
myself through school. My parents can't afford to pay for my brother
and sister, so I'm helping them pay for school instead. They work
their buns off to help pay for tuition, but let's face it: 4 year
schools are just too expensive to readily pay for with only a part-time
job.
|
| 896.30 | A little rebuttal | PENUTS::JLAMOTTE | J & J's Memere | Wed Nov 08 1989 06:11 | 6 |
| In no way was I implying that the only measure of a good parent was in
their level of support for the childrens education.
Most people understood that! ;-)
|
| 896.31 | | FSHQA2::AWASKOM | | Wed Nov 08 1989 09:25 | 20 |
| I am one of those who had college paid for by Mom and Dad. I am
expecting to pay for my son when he graduates from high school in
a year and a half. Where the money will come from, I have very
little idea - but I'll scrape it together somehow. (And my son
may very well take a year or two between high school and college.
He has a chance at a very unique alternative for those years which
I will encourage him to pursue.)
For me, over half of the value of college came outside the classroom.
It was the juxtaposition of inquiring minds with interests in many
disciplines that broadened my focus. None of my college was really
job preparation - instead it was life preparation. You do learn
a lot living away from home and with folks who don't share your
background and mindset.
This is another of those cases where there is no 'one right answer'.
Each family must decide what is right for themselves, given their
current and anticipated circumstances.
Alison
|
| 896.32 | Sorry! | BARTLE::LESSARD | | Wed Nov 08 1989 10:30 | 48 |
|
Gee .25, I didn't mean to burn you in effigy. Sorry
if it came out like that... it sounds like you worked
out a good agreement for your family, and you most
certainly appreciated it.
Much of my annoyance stems from seeing my in-laws continue
to treat him as though he was still a suffering college
student.... He futzed around for 6 months blowing his money
on sky-diving, trips around the country, etc. He interviewed
for a million jobs, but none were glamourous enough - or paid
enough as far as he was concerned. Finally he landed a job,
and his parents rented a moving truck, drove
it 200 miles and moved all his furniture and put it together
at the grand hour of 10pm on a Friday evening, with my hubby
helping out. He was at work, so did not have to lift a finger.
The next day, the in-laws drove him to a 10 hour CIA test,
because "he didn't feel like being on Boston alone".
My impression is he expects this type of treatment, which
I and some other's feel he got from school. I don't think all
people who's parents pay for education are like this, but
I am pointing out an extreme example of someone who
continues to be spoiled, and quite possibly has pipe dreams
about a glamourous CIA life.
I think if he had to hold down a job while attending school
instead of taking karate lessions it may have helped him appreciate
balancing school life and work life at the same time. As
a result of these 4 years, he was completely unprepared
for the working world. In fact, most of his friends joined
the service, because they could not imagine working for
a living quite yet, starting at the bottom of the ladder. (where most
people do start out). They all figured Uncle Sam will
take care of them while obtaining a graduate degree.
My feeling is he is a product of a generation I do not
understand - it seems as though they don't want to face
reality of life.
So sorry if I sounded sarcastic, I didn't mean to demean
anyone. I think the situtation aggravates more when
you see it from a family perspective.
|
| 896.33 | | CARBUR::XIA | In my beginning is my end. | Wed Nov 08 1989 13:49 | 7 |
| re -1,
Just a nit. I think the companies one interviews pick up the tab
for the trip and same with moving expense, so why did your in-law
rent a truck?
Eugene
|
| 896.34 | | JAIMES::LESSARD | | Wed Nov 08 1989 13:57 | 12 |
|
-.1
Private counseling centers for troubled adolescents
don't generally pay these expenses. If they do, this
one isn't - all relo is on him. From one end
of NH to another...maybe within state doesn't count??
His live in girlfriend isn't getting any relo with her new
nursing job either. Beats me.
|
| 896.35 | Attitude problems are made, not bought. | COBWEB::SWALKER | If you are an ice weasel, come in... | Wed Nov 08 1989 14:58 | 63 |
| RE: .32
This is a little off the topic, but I think that blaming your
nephew's attitude on his college is only peripheral to the argument...
and the problem existing in your family. It is not an issue of
"IF student goes to a S.L.A.C., AND parents pay, THEN student will
grow up to be a maladjusted snob". At least I hope it's not :-).
It sounds to me like the problem is with his family, period, in
allowing this attitude to continue, and yea, nurturing it (who
rented the truck, anyway? Did they pay for it outright or _lend_
him the money?).
Let's say your nephew had had a job during the academic year that
paid reasonably well. This would have acclimatized him to the
working world, and taught him to balance work and school life.
And let's say that Mom and Dad were still footing the school bills.
From what you say, said nephew would probably have used the money
for a spring break in a warm clime. To what effect? By the time
the nephew gets out of school, he has become accustomed to a standard
of living he probably can't maintain.
On the other hand, let's say that his parents had decided to split
the cost of Amherst 50-50 with him. Great, at 18, he has to come
up with $10,000 a year, while a full-time student. Mom and Dad,
meanwhile, are probably enjoying a comfortable standard of living.
What do you think junior's reaction is going to be when he's flat
broke and worried sick about the next semester and Mom calls to ask
his advice on which new car she should get, a BMW because the grey
would look so nice with her fur, or a Volvo station wagon because
it would fit all the ski equipment?
The point I am making is that values begin at home, not at college.
For students from wealthy families, the prospect of adjusting suddenly
to a different standard of living can cause a real tailspin. That's
where emotional support from the parents can really help them to keep
perspective. Some parents seem to send their kids to "name" schools
with very, very high expectations of what they will become, so if the
kids don't get all A's or a first job as a CEO, they feel like a failure.
So they panic, and drift. The "reality of life" for many of these
kids is the looming reality of facing their parents with the news that
they didn't get their $80,000 worth. That can be quite a burden in this
day and age. An example: after we got our first semester grades back
freshman year, a classmate of mine was in tears at the prospect of facing
her parents. According to her roommate, the inevitable, dreaded call
home went something like this: "Mom, Dad, I didn't so very well last
semester and I hope you'll forgive me. My average was only a 3.8."
I am of the opinion that paying for all/part of their tuition is not,
in and of itself, going to make kids appreciate college more. (Appreciate
it being over, maybe). If they know their parents have the money but
they are being forced to go through living hell to earn their share
"out of principle", they are likely to draw conclusions about how much
their parents care about them anyway, unless there is a very clear
understanding as to *why* things must be this way.
I don't think working long hours during the academic year is desirable,
especially not for freshmen. It certainly doesn't allow much leeway if
the student starts to have problems, and I think it can rob the student
of a lot of valuable informal contact with teachers and other students.
And I certainly don't see it as a panacea for attitude problems.
Sharon
|
| 896.36 | | JAIMES::GODIN | Shades of gray matter | Wed Nov 08 1989 15:42 | 30 |
| I was one of those daughters of the '60s (pre-consciousness raising)
who was told that family money had to be saved for the sons' college
education, since "they'd need the schooling to get a good job, and
you'll be supported by your husband." (I wasn't even married --
heck, I wasn't even dating to speak of -- at the time 8-}!) So
I put myself through college with a combination of scholarships,
jobs, both during the school year and the long vacation periods,
and loans. I was still repaying college loans 12 years after I got
my degree!
In fact, I was still repaying college loans when my children were born,
which may be one reason I decided they'd pay their own way or not
go. But over the years I've mellowed, so when Laura started talking
college -- expensive, private, etc. -- we decided the fairest way
to go about it was to divide the expenses three ways (her father
and I no longer being together). She is to pay 1/3, her father
1/3, and me 1/3. Her share could (and did, for the most part) come
from scholarships, jobs, or loans. Whether those loans were
bank, government, or from her parents didn't matter. They were
loans and were to be repaid by her once she was graduated and on
her own. Thanks to the scholarships she earned, she only has to
work summers to fund her share.
Like others in this file I don't consider it my duty as a loving
parent to hock my retirement years for her education. Maybe if
a college education meant something, that would be a different story.
But too often over the past 20 years or so I've encountered people
with degrees who can't get jobs.
Karen
|
| 896.37 | | WAHOO::LEVESQUE | Sorry, our hands are tied. | Wed Nov 08 1989 16:09 | 23 |
| > But too often over the past 20 years or so I've encountered people
> with degrees who can't get jobs.
That seems to be largely related to what you study. A couple of my friends
from high school decided to pursue what they liked instead of what would
prepare them best for the job market. They ended up being sorry (a feeling which
appeared to creep up on them during the second half of their junior year).
On the other hand, a grownup once told me (when I was still in high school)
that the cream of the crop in any course of study could always find a job.
I think that's probably true. Whenever the job market heads south, just be
better than most everyone else. This is usually a function primarily of effort.
In order for a sheepskin to mean something, you need to study the right thing.
So when I hear that someone is planning on studying xxx, I always think of
what sort of job that will prepare them for. In some cases, I can't think of
any.
Some people can afford to go to college for the sake of learning just to
learn. The rest of us go (or went) to college to learn an applicable skill;
to make ourselves marketable.
The Doctah
|
| 896.38 | You are right! | JAIMES::LESSARD | | Wed Nov 08 1989 16:22 | 56 |
|
Sharon,
You are so right when you say time at work for a college
freshman takes away from that important first year of
socializing and maintaining schoolwork - it's the toughest
year!
I think I'm so peeved at him because:
. His other 4 brothers and sisters did in no way
receive this kind of money for school. My in-laws
were generous as they could be, however.
2. I see how he was raised, by a kind and loving
family, but I think he took advantage.
3. My inlaws live in a small paper mill town. Every
spare cent went into his education, and for the five
years I've known them their dream trip to Hawaii has
gone into his education.
4. My in laws called my husband to have them help
him move his brothers furniture. HE should have
done that. And thank him too.
5. I honestly think their retirement dates got shifted
a good 5-7 years because of this. They sold their house,
and I am get scared that they really will not have enough
money for retirement to live on, nevermind enjoy it.
So I guess it's a combination of factors in this
situation. Much of it stems from home life, you
are right. But I DID notice, as the siblings did
a markedly different attitude (snobby!) as his years at
college progressed. Even his parents commented on it!
So I think what I did here is mix some strong feelings
I have regarding him, with the idea of getting
college paid for..... I see your points Sharon! It's
terribly hard to separate the two when you see a
situation like this!
BTW, he got all A's so that time did help! Excellent
marks, but when he applied to graduate school -
real life experience was the factor in accepting
candidates. A job made the difference for the successful....
Thanks for separating those 2 issues more clearly
than I could!
|
| 896.39 | | CARBUR::XIA | In my beginning is my end. | Wed Nov 08 1989 16:27 | 7 |
| >So when I hear that someone is planning on studying xxx, I always think of
>what sort of job that will prepare them for. In some cases, I can't think of
>any.
Do you mean philosophy :-)? (No offense to the philosophy majors)
Eugene
|
| 896.40 | | ACESMK::CHELSEA | Mostly harmless. | Wed Nov 08 1989 16:59 | 7 |
| Re: .27
>By the way where is that college?
Which college? There aren't a lot of Ivy League colleges (if Ivy
League is what you mean by "snooty"). There are a lot of small liberal
arts colleges that are rather expense; Bennington comes to mind.
|
| 896.41 | | CARBUR::XIA | In my beginning is my end. | Wed Nov 08 1989 17:00 | 5 |
| re .40,
I meant to ask where is Leighigh (sp?).
Eugene
|
| 896.42 | | CARBUR::XIA | In my beginning is my end. | Wed Nov 08 1989 17:03 | 7 |
| > There aren't a lot of Ivy League colleges (if Ivy
> League is what you mean by "snooty").
Now Chelsea, this can't be true since I clearly classified MIT as
"snooty", but it is not an Ivy League :-).
Eugene
|
| 896.43 | Yes, the techo-dweeb herself | SSDEVO::GALLUP | don't look distracted | Wed Nov 08 1989 18:15 | 11 |
|
> I meant to ask where is Leighigh (sp?).
Leihigh (i'm not sure how to spell it either) is in Kentucky
or something like that...I'll check for you when I get
home...it's the national headquarters for Tau Beta Pi, and I
have my magazine somewhere at home.....
kath
|
| 896.44 | Basic question | BRADOR::HATASHITA | | Wed Nov 08 1989 18:37 | 3 |
| What does it take to finance a university education in the US?
K
|
| 896.45 | | SSDEVO::GALLUP | don't look distracted | Wed Nov 08 1989 20:50 | 29 |
|
> What does it take to finance a university education in the US?
What does it cost? Mine cost, for four and a half years of
at the Univ of Arizona (a bachelor's in engineering),
approximately $26K...that included
tuition $5K
books $4K
housing,food $12K
misc $5K (lab fees, supplies, etc)
This of course, does not take into account entertainment,
everyday expenses, etc that I carried myself thru working
part-time...I have no idea of those figures....figuring I
made about $24K in the four years I was a student, and 1/2
that went to pay housing and misc, I suppose about 12K for
extras.....(split over four years, of course...)
My scholarships included tuition plus $1500 a year.
D@mn, I was poor, wasn't I?
:-)
kath
|
| 896.46 | Choisir le meilleur .. | BTOVT::BOATENG_K | S.O.S. Touche pas a mon pote | Thu Nov 09 1989 01:49 | 79 |
| Re: 44
Kris would you like to share with the readers, what you know about college
costs in the province of Ontario ? Most of the replies so far have been about
US college education: "Who pays or should pay for them", how about comparisons
from other areas outside the US ?
The govt. of the province of Quebec traditionally contributes heavily towards
the funding of colleges and universities in the province. *Even a private
school like McGill University receives the bulk of its operating funds from
provincial and federal govts. For one particular year in the 80s' that I'am
aware of, here is the breakdown of funding sources at McGill ( Ultra-"snooty")
Total Annual Expenditure (for that particular year).
212.3 Million dollars.
Source of Funds:
Student tuition fees 18.7 million. (From 20,500 students: grads & under..)
Govt. of Quebec grants 104.5 million.
Federal Govt. grants 27.9 million.
US Govt. grants 1.4 million.
(Further) Provincial 4.4 million.
The distinction between private and public institutions is *blurred in Canada
by the large proportion of govt. funding given to most schools.
McGill's private status is characterized less by sources of funding than by
its history, legal status and independent governor.
An example of a three credit course if I remember correctly was like
$879. for non-residents and about $249.00 for citizens and landed immigrants.
For that year's student population by origin:
Province of Quebec 75%
Other provinces. 13%
120 Inter-nations. 7%
United States of .. 5% (mostly from the New England states)
Famous American McGill graduates:
Angela Buchanan - Treasurer of the United States.
Dr. Charles Drew - Surgeon and pioneer researcher in blood plasma.
S.I. Hayakawa - United States senator and linguist.
McGill is an example of a so-called snooty private school. Yet it is very
affordable to all who meet the competitive entry requirements.
In Canada, McGill's Faculty of Medicine ranks #1 in the whole nation, it
ranks #5 in all of North-America, it ranks #10 in the whole world.
( Says who ? "The Gorman Report" 1987 )
McGill University ranks "closely behind" #1 Univ. de Paris (Sorbonne)..
..Oxford Univ. (England) etc.. ( According to 87 " Gourman Report" )
[ Given these and other elements in their past, Canadians come to modern
society with a different approach. If Americans tend to emphasize
individualism, Canadians - English-speaking or French-speaking - have tradi-
- tionally focused on the values of the community. In recent decades, while
pursuing these different goals, the two nations have grown less alike in
areas like education and health. For example, in the mid-1960s' health
services in the two nations were roughly the same, but since then Canadians
have developed universal health care system, a very different system from the one
one US citizens still use. ] ( Quoted from page 3 para.8 of the current issue
of: "Canada Today/d'aujourd'hui"
Re: >> Who should finance a student's college education, dad, mom..?"
What about those without parents ? I'am speaking of orphans.
One of my cousins is currently in a graduate school( engineering) at MIT,
both of his parents were deceased in the 60s'. So who paid for his intitial
start at a college ? It was one of his relatives ( an uncle) who realizing
that he is brilliant volunteered to pay for his tuition.
Another cousin earned his Ph.D about three years ago and although both his
parents are deceased the two older brothers: one *just a DEC engineer
- married with kids and his other brother just a post-high school physics
instructor combined their resources to give their younger brother a good
college education.
Another alternative for determined parents:
I'am sure most of the readers in North America might have heard of the
Jarvik-7 ( Artificial heart) . Dr Jarvik was refused admission to about at
least 3 US universities for " not having the academic qualifications and
funds..." He didn't give up however, instead he went to Italy to pursue
his medical degree.. and the rest (like they say) is HISTORY.
Fazari.
|
| 896.47 | Lehigh | MFGMEM::BENCH | | Thu Nov 09 1989 07:45 | 6 |
| RE: .41
Lehigh is located in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania.
Claude
|
| 896.48 | just a few thoughts | GIAMEM::MACKINNON | | Thu Nov 09 1989 07:55 | 40 |
|
I beleive the kids should be responsible to pay for their education.
My Mom worked hard to help me, but as a widow with four kids she
just couldn't put that much money away for school. I was the only
kid in my family to go to college. I worked hard through school
and that allowed me the oppurtunity to get alot of scholarship money.
But that still wasn't enough.
I feel that the parents who want their kids to get into the "best"
schools they can are not really thinking about what that means.
Just because you go to a good school does not guarantee them a
good job when they get out. (Unless of course the kid is going
to work for Mom or Dad's company) Work experience is the most
important thing employers look at when they review resumes.
I was offered a full four year scholarship to BU for engineering,
but after talking with many people in the industry I decided
to turn it down and go to Northeastern. Why? Because at NU
I was afforded the oppurtunity to Co-op for the best companies
who offered Co-op programs. I got my first co-op job with DEC
in 1984 and continued until I graduated. Each co-op job was
different from the previous, and I gained valuable experience.
I paid for my college education with co-op, part-time jobs, loans,
and a little help from my grandparents. My grades weren't the
greatest, but I had the work experience. When I graduated I was
hired into DEC full-time. I didn't even bother to interview with
other companies because I knew I wanted to stay with DEC if that
was a possibility. Offers went out for three different positions
each with a co-op boss that I had worked for previously.
A few freinds of mine who started school the same time I did, and
also went into engineering are still looking for jobs in their field
even after being out of school for two years. They all went to
school that did not have co-op programs. The only work experience
they had were summer jobs and part-time jobs. So I firmly beleive
that getting and education along with practical work experience
is what gets the jobs not what school you go to.
Mi
|
| 896.49 | School name does make a difference | SMAUG::DESMOND | | Thu Nov 09 1989 11:07 | 6 |
| In some companies, the school you attend does make a difference in what
you get offered as a starting salary. Two companies that come to mind
are IBM and Raytheon. I'm not sure about DEC but both IBM and Raytheon
have ratings for colleges which plays a role in determining the salary
offer. Co-op experience also adds to the offer but the school
definitely makes a difference.
|
| 896.50 | How Much | GYPSC::BINGER | beethoven was dutch | Thu Nov 09 1989 12:15 | 2 |
| About how much is the Bill for Harvard Business school.
|
| 896.51 | what is college for? | CADSYS::PSMITH | foop-shootin', flip city! | Thu Nov 09 1989 12:23 | 50 |
| The question is: why is the person going to college?
1. Some people go to college to learn so they can get a good job.
These people focus on learning practical things. They _tend_ to be
hard science and engineering majors.
2. Some people go to college to learn so they will be better prepared
for life in general. These people are not so focused on the practical,
and are looking in more than one direction for the information they
need. They _tend_ to be liberal arts majors.
3. Some people go to college to have one last fling before they have
to settle down and become adults. They do not focus at all. They
_tend_ to drop out. :-) (Just joking, but that's what one of my
brothers did. He came back 4 years later as an extremely practical
aerospace engineering major!)
There's as many scenarios as there are numbers, probably!
Parents fund colleges differently based on what they want their kids to
get out of it, what they can afford, what their priorities are, what
their educational/social history was...
My father was a type 1. My mother was a type 2. I got a type 2
liberal arts education at a name college. The name has helped me get
at least one job that I know of, although the pay was truly pitiful.
My parents paid for tuition/room/board; I paid for the rest (books,
fees, travel home from Mass. to Maryland, incidental living expenses).
They paid with a monthly plan worked out by the college; I got grants,
scholarships, student loans, work/study jobs, summer jobs. It worked
for us.
They have not had to pay one penny to support me since I graduated. I
am incredibly grateful to them for what they gave to me, at some cost
to themselves (there are 5 kids). I plan to give back to them, when
they need it, as much as they need.
Ben Franklin: "If a man empties his purse into his head, no one can
take it away from him. An investment in knowledge always pays the best
interest." Go, Ben!
Pam
P.S. I subsequently studied at night to become a tech writer -- paid
for the program with $2500 in savings and $2000 borrowed from my
younger brother. It was a COMPLETELY different experience from
undergraduate, because I was working 40-50 hours a week, taking 2
classes a semester, and basically had very little time to have fun. It
was character-building ... but I'm glad I did it at 25 and not at 18,
personally.
|
| 896.52 | | BRADOR::HATASHITA | | Thu Nov 09 1989 13:18 | 17 |
| If you can get into a university in Ontario you are elligible for
a $2500/term interest free loan (interest begins 3 years after you
graduate). If your finances and those of your parents are such
that you still can't afford a university education, you are elligible
for a grant of up to $4500/term. No strings and no fine print.
Tuition is (or was when I graduated in '85) about $1200/term. Many
universities also offer a co-op program. So money is not an issue when
it comes to an education. If a person expresses a desire and has a
demonstrated ability to learn, I don't think it right that money
should be an issue.
A co-worker has a Harvard MBA which cost her $25,000/year in tuition
alone. At that price education becomes a luxury for the rich and
that stinks.
Kris
|
| 896.53 | The corporate world is pretty "snooty" | ROLL::GASSAWAY | Insert clever personal name here | Thu Nov 09 1989 13:34 | 49 |
| Well, every thing about notes seems to be screwed up, I've completely
lost my reply because it couldn't be entered, and it didn't save properly,
why can't DEC get software tools that aren't a struggle?
Price for MIT (1 year)
Tuition 14K (goes up $800 a year)
Room 2.5K
Food .5K *
Books .5K
Misc 1K
* Food depended on where you lived. If your dorm had a caf you were required
to have an expensive meal plan. Mine didn't so I saved some money. Living
off campus, with studios renting for $500+ a month was even more restrictive.
(I guess it was cheaper to rent a bigger place and split it, but still, a
three bedroom goes for about $1200 to $1300 a month.)
Even with maximum grants from MIT a student still had to take out about
$4000 worth of loans a year, and contribute $1000 out of summer work savings
and $700 a term. And that was just toward tuition and your room, if you
wanted spending money you had to clear more than that. MIT didn't give out
academic scholarships, and the first couple of thousand dollars of outside
scholarships were taken out of your grants (i.e. you get a 4-H scholarship
for $500, your grant is reduced by $500). I don't know of anyone who was
putting themselves through.
And yes school name does matter. I had several recruiters who made quite a
big deal about the fact that I was from MIT. When I interviewed at Analog
Devices, I ate lunch with a group of 7-8 people, only one was not from MIT.
I had interviewers actually put down state schools.
As much as you wouldn't want to think it, people see state schools (with
Berkeley or maybe Amherst and a handful of others) as a place people go
because they can't get in anywhere else, not because they can't AFFORD to go
anyplace else.
And as for grad school, if you went to a state school you probably have
to be totally amazing as an undergrad to get into a good one, even from MIT
you pretty much needed a 4.5 out of a possible 5.0 to get in somewhere like
Berkeley (or even MIT grad school). Unless you wanted to study computer
science, where you needed more like a 5.0/5.0.
And FWIW, I wasn't allowed to interview with Bell Labs. My GPA (4.3/5.0)
was about half a point too low. There are a lot of "snooty" companies out
there.
Lisa
|
| 896.54 | now a degree is for reducing applicants | AZTECH::KOLBE | The dilettante debutante | Thu Nov 09 1989 16:02 | 18 |
| <And FWIW, I wasn't allowed to interview with Bell Labs. My GPA (4.3/5.0)
<was about half a point too low. There are a lot of "snooty" companies out
<there.
FWIW, my brother-in-law used to work for Bell Labs and they decided
his masters in Math wasn't enough so he spent 2 years working 3/4
time and going to school to get a masters in CS. Otherwise they
wouldn't promote him. Now he works for US West and was glad to leave
Bell behind.
Talk about the advantages of being in the right place at the right
time. I got into the DP world with a 6 month technical school
programming class and have been able to work my way up from there.
Nowdays they want a degree for even entry level positions. I once
read an article in the local paper where the owner of a taxi service
in Aspen bragged that every one of his drivers had a degree and if
he wanted to he could require a masters and still have as many
applicants as he needed to fill all his openings. liesl
|