Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    re: .0
    
         But one could also say, "why not?"  Since life in a body
    always comes to an end anyway, is it any less "proper" to die
    suddenly, happy, etc. than it would be to die old, infirmed,
    in pain and miserable?  It is not for the living to judge the
    propriety of someone else's life...or their death, either.
    Only the person him or herself is in a position to do that
    and no one who is alive can convince anyone else that they know
    what that individual felt/experienced/wanted, etc.
    
         Incidentally, that six-year old boy you mentioned trapped in
    a car had his leg amputated in order to enable his freeing.  Tragedies
    such as the one we are experiencing here (I'm in Santa Clara)
    are only noticed because of magnitude or focus and attention.  I
    believe that the numbers I have heard state that there are 50,000
    people dying of hunger...*every day*...throughout the world.
    So it's all a matter of perspective...everything is relative and
    the relativity of the matter can be a trap...a trap of shrugging
    of shoulders.
    
    Frederick
    

 I've been thinking alot about death lately- especially sudden death (my own).
I'm not sure what it means.

 the Doctah

    Death comes to all of us that live.  Unfortunately it comes in many
    ways such as this tradgedy in the San Francisco area. It's not planned
    and is often different from what we would choose (I would prefer to die
    in my sleep).  The boy that needed a leg amputated to be removed from
    the car lost more than his leg....he lost both parents.  How do you
    cope?  I've no idea. I too have thought alot about death lately, as the
    Doctah had stated he had. Maybe it's because it's a time of year when
    both my parents died or maybe because I fly alot or, in the past 24
    hours I've thought about the time I've spent in  the Bay area and on the
    bridges and roads that collapsed. It has certainly sent a shiver
    through me and my prayers go out to the people in the affected area.
    
    P.
    

	 Death is a necessary evil.

	 Everyone must die at some point.  And not everyone can die
	 naturally.  When man chose to live on this earth, he also
	 chose to accept the consequences of it.

	 Death is not something to look forward to, but something to
	 accept.  No matter how devastating it is, no matter how
	 horrific the deaths are......it is a natural occurance in the
	 society in which we live (drunk drivers for instance), on the
	 earth in which we live (earthquakes).....

	 Death needs to be accepted for what it is.....when it is my
	 time to die, I'll welcome it as the next step....as something
	 that was meant to happen.  And though I assume people would
	 grieve, I would encourage them to accept it, and continue
	 on to their destiny.

	 kath

	 PS:  To clarify, I'm not saying we should accept deaths by
	 drunks or murders and such....we just need to accept that man
	 evolved into what he is today, and we can't change
	 that....death like that should not be forgiven....just
	 accepted.

	 I don't know if I'm getting my point across....does anyone
	 understand what I'm trying to say?

    re:.4
    
    *I* understand what you're getting at, Kath.
    
    I have no fear of death. I have a fear of going out in a slow,
    agonizing manner, but the fact of death itself doesn't worry me.
    It happens. There's no denying it. Measures can be taken to put
    it off for a while, but the Reaper will come around eventually.
    
    --- jerry

  re: .0


�    When the hurricane Hugo it the coast there was an amount of warning
�    that can prepare you, *set your expectaions* for a disaster.
    
   I also agree that warnings of a hurricane (growing up on Long Island,NY that
happened more often then I care to remember) can prepare you for a possible
disaster.  I recall a year or two back, all of Fire Island and parts of the
south shore were evacuated.  When the hurricane DIDN'T produce the disaster 
that was expected, people actually attacked the officials and meteorologists
that predicted that it would.  For me, that takes incredible gall! 

   Last night I was talking to a couple about the earthquake and I mentioned
that at least with a hurricane, in many instances you have time to prepare.
Even if you can't protect all of your belongings, you can (most importantly)
come out of it alive.  Her feeling was that "If you live in California, you
have to expect earthquakes." and that it was the same thing.  I see a major 
difference between the two, however.

   I agree with the basenoter that felt that this was an instant catastrophic 
tragedy.

   /larry

    As the writer of the base note I'm still unsure of my thoughts and
    feelings.
    
    If I fear death it's from my concern for those who are left.  Not that
    I or anyone is indespensible but that I am sensitive to saddness and loss.
    
    In this case it's the magnitude of the horror.
    
    It might also be  that this is the most recent American *instant*
    tradegy.  Other disasters throughout the world have claimed more lives
    but as I said earlier this one hit *home*.
    
    I emphasized the word instant to address this particular tragedy and
    not wanting to start a debate over the many other *tragedies* that
    occur in this country and throughout the world.  
    
    

    
>    It might also be  that this is the most recent American *instant*
>    tradegy. 


	 I think it really hits home more when it's a natural
	 disaster.........most lives have been lost in a single
	 airline crash than have been lost in this earthquake....but
	 you always know that element of risk when you board an
	 airplane.........

	 A natural disaster like an earthquake is more of a shocker.
	 Perhaps because it is "forces beyond our control" whereas in
	 a plane crash or such, someone or something can be blamed.


	 kath

I don't see living in an earthquake zone as being any different from living
along a hurricane coast.  The suddenness of an earthquake is different, though.
And you can take different precautions with each disaster.

What are worse disasters to me are human caused ones like the Chinese massacre.

Jim.

    I saw an item on the news last night describing how Japan is preparing
    for the possibility of an earthquake.  The've taken just about any
    precation you can think of from seating desks in casters secured to the
    floor, ropes across bookcases to keep them from falling out, tying
    tall furniture to the walls, bridge construction, educations programs,
    etc..  
    
    Talk about planning for a disaster....I can't say even hurricanes get
    this much preparedness. 
    
    So in essence an earthquakes timing may be a mystery but it can be
    sure to happen.  I'd guess there's a higher probablity of earthquakes
    happening in california than planes crashing there.
    
    I'll take neither thank you.
    
    
    

    The effect of "natural" disasters seems more humbling to humanity
    than man made disasters. When the Challenger blew up or the Titanic
    sank men could always say "well, that design didn't work, next time
    we'll do better". When nature strikes there is nothing you can do
    but batten the hatches and hope. You have no choice, no control and
    say in it. We as a race like control. We like to think the earth and
    the stars will bow to our hand. It shows us where we really stand in
    the cosmos. liesl

    .8 and .11 seems to strike a cord.
    
    I've never given much thought to airplane crashes though I'm an adament
    non-flyer.  Maybe it's true that when something mechanical fails we can
    blame someone/something.  We can change the design (note .11).  The
    ability to blame or change the design are things we have control over.
    
    Yes, maybe what I'm feeling is a *loss of control* and I don't like it
    but I do feel somewhat better.
    

I agree the sense of control is very powerful psychologically.

I've found many people express a fear of flying, yet hardly give a second
thought to driving a car, even though the later is far more dangerous.
When you have the steering wheel in your hand, the sense that you can
respond to avoid an accident reduces the fear.  As a passenger on an
airplane, there's not much you can do except trust the pilot...

At times of sudden catastrophe, people often look for a larger meaning or
context to help them understand and accept what has happened.  Some people
turn to "God", a symbol for that which transcends individual human existance.

Joseph Campbell in "The Power of Myth" observes:

  People say that what we're all seeking is a meaning for life.
  I don't think that's what we're really seeking.  I think that
  what we're seeking is an experience of being alive, so that our
  life experiences on the purely physical plane will have resonances
  within our own innermost being and reality, so that we actually feel
  the rapture of being alive.

- Peter

>SSDEVO::GALLUP "i try swimming the same deep"        17 lines  19-OCT-1989
>                        -< A power greater than us. >-
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>         I think it really hits home more when it's a natural
>         disaster.........most lives have been lost in a single
>         airline crash than have been lost in this earthquake....but
>         you always know that element of risk when you board an
>         airplane.........

	There's risk moving to California (or Japan) just like taking a plane
	trip.  It's known to be an earthquake area.

	MANY MANY more people have died in quakes than due to planes.

	In fact, I'd say the chances of dying in the next 20 years due
	to an earthquake if you live in California are greater than the
	chances of dying due to a plane crash if you fly the average
	American's number of flights over that same period.

	But back to the San Fransisco quake.  I found it particularly
	eerie to see those television pictures of cars that had driven
	over the edge, and still see their right blinker going.

	By the way, in that car that an amateur managed to videotape as
	it drove in to the road crack on the bridge, even though that
	car only fell a few feet, the driver died.

/Eric

>   <<< Note 872.14 by HANNAH::OSMAN "see HANNAH::IGLOO$:[OSMAN]ERIC.VT240" >>>


	 I think you might have missed my point.......

	 My point was that you think about it when you get on a
	 plane....you are more aware of the fact that you might not
	 get off it alive.

	 When you move to California...with all the tremors and such
	 you get used to it and you don't think everyday when you wake up
	 that by tonight you might be dead from an earthquake.



	 Also, my point was that it isn't something you can just blame
	 on someone else....it's so much bigger than that....

	 kath

	 

    re .14:
    
    	"By the way, in that car that an amateur managed to videotape as it
    	drove in to the road crack on the bridge, even though that car only
    	fell a few feet, the driver died."
    
    Want to bet the driver wasn't wearing a seat belt?
    
    	Jon

    I dunno if it was only a few feet--I'd say the upper deck of the
    bridge is about twenty five feet above the lower deck (thinking
    of truck clearance at least).  That's a long way to fall in or out
    of a car.....
    
    kim

    I think that was the eeriest (if that's a word) sight I've ever
    seen....to watch that poor woman drive right into that gapping hole
    in the bridge....sort of makes you really watch the road when you're
    driving, huh?
    
    Jill
    

>    re .14:
>    
>    	"By the way, in that car that an amateur managed to videotape as it
>    	drove in to the road crack on the bridge, even though that car only
>    	fell a few feet, the driver died."
>    
>    Want to bet the driver wasn't wearing a seat belt?
>    
>    	Jon
>
>    I dunno if it was only a few feet--I'd say the upper deck of the
>    bridge is about twenty five feet above the lower deck (thinking
>    of truck clearance at least).  That's a long way to fall in or out
>    of a car.....
>    
>    kim

		The particular video I was talking about showed a car taped
		from a rear view.  The car took a dip, but only a few feet.
		The rear of the car was still visible.

/Eric

    "That video" having been shown dozens of times by now, it almost
    isn't worth providing another interpretation; but the car appeared 
    to fall almost entirely below the level of the road surface it had
    been driving along at 50+mph, when it hit the edge of the 250-ton
    slab which had fallen down, and the car popped back up into view.  
    I doubt whether a seatbelt would have made any difference in this
    50+mph front end smash.
    
    DougO

      I wonder how much the TV networks paid the one who filmed it for 
    permission to broadcast that tape? I understand CNN and other news
    organizations offer quite a bit of money to various 'newshounds' for
    things like that. Makes you think.
    
      							-Jim-
    

    	I haven't seen that videotape (and I'm torn between wanting to
    and not!), but what I'm curious about is just how that person 
    happened to be taping the cars on the bridge at that exact time!  
    I mean, I wouldn't think taping your commute home is all that 
    interesting!  

    	amy

>    I mean, I wouldn't think taping your commute home is all that 
>    interesting!  


	 They were on a California vacation.......and just happened to
	 be driving the Bay Bridge and thought the drive across would
	 be neat to film.  They were just in the right place at the
	 right time; their video recorder was already on before the
	 quake began.

	 They also mentioned that they were supposed to be home (to
	 somewhere in the midwest) by Monday for work.  Doubted they
	 would make it.

	 kat

    I apologize if this is a rathole or not related, but since the topic is
    "catastrophic tragedy"...
    
    On control...
    
    That is an interesting observation, and one I have to say that I feel
    very strongly.  I am taking flying lessons, and the one thing I keep
    hearing from pilots and instructors over and over is the emphasis that
    the PIC (pilot in command) has full control.  
    
    Unlike motor vehicle laws, a specific FAR (Federal Aviation Regulation)
    states that the pilot may deviate from ANY OTHER FAR to the extent
    necessary to cope with an emergency.  And it is well known that
    EVERYTHING, EVERYWHERE stops whenever a pilot says the magic words
    "MAYDAY". These things may sound depressing, but it reinforces the idea
    that the pilot is in control, and is authorized by law to do whatever
    he feels is prudent to fly and land safely.  My puddle-jumper can push
    a 747 out of the way, if need be.
    
    I feel reasonably comfortable in commercial airlines, and part of that
    is because since I started lessons I understand better the enormous
    amount of training and proficiency that is involved in getting to be
    where they are.  But, even with the possibility of sudden disaster
    that can happen in a small plane (like a bird in the windshield), I
    still feel more comfortable knowing that I am up there because I want
    to be, and I am in control.
    
    On being out of control...
    
    I remember the first time I saw a missle silo in Wyoming.  Until that
    time, I had read about nuclear arms, seen movies about them (THRILLED
    to "War Games"), written papers about them, seen pictures and movies of
    Hiroshima, radiation burns, etc., and generally been conscious of them
    most of my adult life.
    
    But I could NEVER have anticipated my emotion at SEEING a silo.  I was
    SURPRISED!  I couldn't believe it!  There REALLY WERE missle silos! 
    Undeniable proof seen with my own two eyes!  How could I have known
    about them for so long, and still not have KNOWN about them?  They
    weren't just "things in the news"!  They weren't just rhetorical
    subjects for politicians to debate about!  They were REAL!
    
    I kept thinking, Who could have built these things?  How could this
    have happened?  I was on a skiing vacation, yet I was depressed for
    days with the enormity of it all.  Something I had known all my life,
    and never known at all!
    
    I guess that is what happens in California.  You "know" it can happen,
    but you don't "KNOW" it.  And then, even when it does, I guess you can
    rationalize it away quickly, because of your life there, your job, etc. 
    
    But I couldn't move there, myself.
    
    While I am on morose topics, I'll go ahead and share one other thing.
    
    (I think this is still human relations - it has to do with feelings,
    and how they affect the way I live and work and react toward others. 
    Let me know if this belongs in soapbox).
    
    When I saw "The Day After", the horror of it didn't really strike me at
    all.  I mean, you can see a LOT more gruesome stuff in most horror
    movies nowadays.  ("Phantasm", YUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)
    
    But I tell you what struck me...  the suddeness of it.
    
    To this day, I'll be driving somewhere in my car, thinking about what I
    have to do at work this week, how I have to get an oil change before my
    car throws a rod, about the weekend and seeing that movie I've wanted
    to see, whether I'll have enough money for my trip to Italy after
    Christmas, geez, what am I going to get my nephew?  Will the weather
    be good so I can take a flying lesson this weekend?  How can I keep up
    these graduate school courses AND ski this winter?  Wonder if anyone
    answered my ad in the singles notesfile?  Is my mortgage going to come
    through on my condo?...
    
    And the radio says... "Beeeeeeeeeeeeep!  This is not a test..."
    
    Over.  Bang.  Done.  Remember all those neat plans you had for the next
    thirty years?  Well write them off!  
    
    How does this affect my "human relations"?  I don't know.  But I know
    that on a bright, cheery, sunny afternoon, my thoughts can become
    unreasonably gloomy, and that CERTAINLY affects my human relations.
    
    My heart is with those that were in the recent earthquake.
    
    Jim
    
    (Sorry, I'll snap out of it.  Tis the season...)
    

    FWIW- One earthquake in 197? killed 27,000 people in one town 99%
    of the total population in 1 swoop when a landslide/avalanche buried
    a peru village.
    
    -j