Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    Some people do not have a high sensibility to tidiness.  Their
    priorities are just different.  You can either drive yourself crazy
    trying to keep a perfect environment, or you can try to compromise. 
    I'd suggest that you and your wife draw up a "contract"...surely there
    are things you do/don't do that bother her as well.  If the house
    hasn't been cleaned in n days, reserve the right in the contract to
    clean it yourself, with no hard feelings and no grumbling.
    
    You don't have a right to a perfect environment, but you do have a
    right to have your priorities respected.  So does your wife.
    
    communicate!!
    
    good luck,
    Marge

    
    re:  0
    
                               Hire a maid.
    
    Dwight

    First of all, I agree with Mike Zarlenga (heavens forbid!), you should
    have discussed this before the wedding.  However, I know not everyone
    sleep and lives together before they get married (I didn't!), so you
    might not have known..

    So what do you do now??  Compromise is probably the only way to win
    here.  Hire a maid...  If that is out of the question fund wise, then
    decide what you can't compromise on (clothes in drawers?) and YOU do
    that... what you can compromise on, let her do it, and when she doesn't
    either do it yourself quietly, or let it lay until it does get done.

    Communication and working together is the only way you two are going to
    get through this right now.. Marriage (or any relationship really) is a
    series of communications, and working on things, compromising where
    needed, standing ground where needed (pet peaves (sp?) that JUST can't be
    altered go into this category)...


    And also, from one that has raised three kids, please let it be known
    that when they were smaller, I could clean the house from top to
    bottom, and in 5 minutes, it (the house) would look like it had not
    been touched in 5 years...  

    And one last thing.... If she is loving, caring, gentle and kind, a
    wonderful mother to the kids, supportive of you, there for you when you
    need her, etc...  you need to weigh that all in, and consider if in the
    long run, does it really matter that she isn't the perfect susy
    homemaker... or in other words... don't sweat the small stuff... there
    will be bigger stuff down the road that will make this look
    insignificant...


    Gale

    Hi!
    I confess that I am a fanatic for clean too! The perfect solution
    (besides hiring a maid ;')!!  Let the house clutter up a bit, dont
    clean it....even the worse of the worse slob will get the hint and
    clean up!!
    
    I think when *both* people work a nine to five job, the chores should
    be split up between each other. It is very difficult for a woman to
    come home and look forward to cleaning, cooking, and tending to kids.
    
    just my 2 cents :-)
    
    Lynne

    A couple thoughts--
    
    I grew up in a household with seven children.  My mother did seven
    loads of laundry daily seven days a week(the days of cloth diapers).
    She worked hard each and every day but the house was continually
    cluttered and she was always picking up.  Now that the children are
    all gone the house is much cleaner but she still has the accumulation
    of belongings that those children left with her for safe keeping.
    
    I have found out as an adult that I have an allergic reaction to 
    dust mites.  I like to have a clean house but vacuuming stirs up
    those dust mites and for the next 24-48 hours I sneeze and wheeze
    and feel very achey and lethargic.  There was a time when I could
    afford to have someone come in to vacuum and dust.  It was WONDERFUL!
    
    Martha

    I have a friend who has three toddlers at home, and her house is 
    a pig stye.  Sometimes I even have a hard time just thinking about
    sitting on her toilet seat.
    
    However,
    
    I have never seen a woman with so much patience for her children.  In
    my eyes she's a saint.  She teaches the children, reads to them, sings
    songs with them, plays with them, takes them for walks, lets them "help"
    in the kitchen, makes sure that their interacting with each other like
    children and not little barbarians.  In other words she's is an
    excellent mother, and she is building caring, loving, intelligent,
    little people.  Isn't that what mothers are for?
    
    I don't know your situation, but if she is neglecting the house to pay
    more attention to the children, than you should thank God that you
    found a person who places such a high value on the quality of life.
    
    But, if she's sitting on her butt watching General Hospital all
    afternoon . . .   ;^)  Now that's a different story.
    
    ss

    oops I forgot.  I loved your heading  "A person's home is their castle"
    
    "Their"  <-  KEYWORD
    
    ss

    re: .8
    
    Neither do I.
    
    If she stays home all day with the kids, it shouldn't kill her to
    pick up.
    
    I know a few (note the word "few", you rarely see homemakers these
    days!) homemakers with more than two kids who have spotless homes.
     It's up to the individual.
    
    Guess you guys should have discussed this *before* the wedding!
     Was it a problem with her house before the marriage, or is it just
    the increase in children.  The older ones should be helping out.
     Our mom even made us do laundry for our allowances.  I'll never
    regret her strictness, all of us (including our brother) keep our
    homes spotless thanks to her fanaticism! :-)
    
    Good luck working out this difference ...
    
    Tammi
    

    re: .9
    
    Boy do I agree with you! There is no need for a house to become
    disgustingly dirty that guests can't even eat or go to the bathroom in 
    a persons house ( I am that type, that if the house is not half ways
    clean, I will not eat there if food is offered)  If the woman is
    devoting time to her kids, which is very important for a childs growth,
    then kudos to her.  But she should have a minute of her time to keep
    the place looking decent. 
    
    Lynne (the neat one) Sigel

    I agree with .9 and .12... I was raised in a 6 room house, with 6
    people (4 kids, and mom and dad) plus a dog and 2 cats :-), my mother
    worked in the day, and found time to clean the house.  I mean sure, you
    will find dust on the furniture, but at least you didn't have to be
    ashamed to bring someone home un-expected.  We just didn't bring them
    upstairs to the bedrooms :-) :-)... but when it comes to things like
    the dishes,.. it doesn't take long to wash them, let them air-dry if
    you don't have the time to dry them... and as far as the cat messing
    behind the couch... I don't know how anyone can live all day long in
    that house with the oder.  I say talk to her before you get to the
    totally turned off point, and it DOES happen, I know someone first hand
    that it happened to!

    I'd say she might have a lower tolerance for "messy" than you do.
     Discuss it.  List the things you'd like to see done, and how often.
     Have her list the same (separately).  Compare the two.  I don't
    think it's fair you ask her to come all the way over to your side,
    but you could set down a list of how often certain chores need doing,
    based on negotiation.  Also, if you disagree with how the house
    is kept in general, a cleaning person may be indicated (not TOO
    expensive, and they do the generic floors/rugs/bathrooms/surfaces
    stuff).  Also, getting a helper (i.e. non-professional person like
    a high school student who needs money) for 5 hours or so once a
    week to help with chores can be a good thing - I did this for a
    professional couple without kids and we both came out the better
    for it (I got college money, they got things straightened, cleaned,
    folded, organized, dusted, ironed, washed, whatever....)
    
    -Jody
    

    Maybe she's depressed and unhappy and the house just reflects her
    feelings. Maybe she'd rather have an outside job and hire a maid.
    Why not ask her what's wrong. Explain why YOU feel slighted and are
    unhappy. It takes two, for both arguments and solutions. liesl

    Re:  .12, .13
    
    I see.  Because other women have excelled in being housewives and 
    mothers, all women at home should excel in being housewives and
    mothers.  I'm afraid I don't agree.  Everyone has different tolerances 
    and capabilities.  Don't expect me to handle a handful of kids and a 
    house -- you won't get what you expect.  By the way, I'd find your
    expectations a lot more reasonable if *you* had been the one with the
    house and kids every day.
    
    Re: .0
    
    Of course it's best to clear these things up in advance, but you can't
    cover *every* aspect of life together ahead of time.  So, talk now.  I
    agree with most of the others -- work out what will be done and by
    whom.  Make sure you'll be comfortable (or mostly comfortable) with the
    results.  You probably want to set a "field test" period of a few
    weeks and then renegotiate to work out any problems.  This is not
    something you want to have carved in stone.
    
    A lot of housewives have a good part of their self-esteem tied up in
    the house.  If the house is a mess, it's their problem and they'll
    handle it in their own way.  If you start cleaning, it's like you're 
    criticizing them.  If I recognize a problem and it's my responsibility, 
    I'm still in control of the situation.  If you start criticizing or doing 
    something about it, you're starting to take control, which is
    threatening to my self-image.
    
    You and your wife should sit down and talk about what you expect from
    each other.  Then work out what you each commit to doing.  Again, this
    is not something you want carved in stone, since this can change.

    I agree with .-1, you may need to divide up the chores in some
    mutually satisfying way so that neither of you are remaining in this
    uncomfortable situation.

    You say that you kept your house spotless while singlehandedly raising
    two children and working full-time.  Surely you could work out some
    arrangement where you are taking care of some things that are important
    to you (the vacuuming and dusting, for example).

    > A lot of housewives have a good part of their self-esteem tied up in
    > the house.  If the house is a mess, it's their problem and they'll
    > handle it in their own way.  If you start cleaning, it's like you're 
    > criticizing them.

    The above is probably true.  When talking to your wife, you should be
    careful not to be too critical of the job she does.  I would stress the
    different priorities, and perhaps tell her that it makes you feel good
    to be helping her clean. (This would be especially appropriate if it
    were the truth!! :-)

    By the way, as a less than perfectly neat person myself, I can say that
    my apartment looks like a cyclone hit it whenever I'm feeling down. 
    Was your wife working full-time before you both married?  She may be
    having a tough time with the adjustment.  It may be worth looking
    into....

    Good luck,

    Sarah

	 Getting married doesn't mean you no longer have to perform
	 the duties you performed before........


	 Compromise.....ask her what she thinks about the house being
	 in the condition it is in, and what she feels needs to be
	 done to satisfy both of you.....perhaps she feels overworked?
	 Perhaps she feels like she's taken on an added burden with
	 your children......perhaps she feels that she doesn't even
	 want to BE at home, she wants to be working!

	 why don't you take some time and find out what's going on?

	 communication can do wonders.

	 kath

    Your expectations may just be to high....Trying to keep a house clean
    with 4 or 5 young children and a couple pets may be nearly impossible.
    
    I believe you need two adults for each child working from sun up to sun 
    down to accomplish that.  
    
    Perhaps you've got to lower your standards and increase your involvement
    to maintain your wits.  Then strive for perfection when you expect
    guests.
    
    
    
    

    
    	I agree that increasing one's involvement when something such
    	as housework (or lack thereof) is bothering you, but I have a
    	problem with lowering one's standards.
    
    	Personally, I can't stand messes/filth in anyone's house.  Now
    	obviously I won't say anything about anyone else's home but my
    	own, but I can tell you that it's impossible for me to look in
    	the mirror and state "you WILL be able to accept messiness and 
    	clutter and grime from this day forward."  It won't happen, no 
    	way no how.  Neatness is a part of me, just like clutteredness
    	is for others.
    
    	Communication, hopefully rational, is the only answer.  Unless
    	one is prepared to tackle all aspects of housecleaning, which
    	would be nearly impossible with so many young children.  Good
    	luck in resolving this.
    
    	Carla
    

    Two teenagers had me screaming at the top of my lungs, and they
    is big lungs... but they're on their own now, and my house is great,
    when I find a break in movies I clean it.  
    
    The only way is to turn off, or get in a housekeeper once a week.
    That was my solution fortnightly when they were at home.  They killed
    the cockroaches and spiders and I paid for the housekeeper... (^;
    
    ...dale
    

I can't believe the people that are telling you that your standards are too
high.

My mother made a fine *clean* home for us *6* children.  And this was before
microwave ovens and permanent press fabrics.

I see this attitude periodically, where people refuse to believe that something
which people used to do as a matter of course is possible to do.  Like
scheduling shopping trips a day in advance, or going shopping only once a week.

I believe that *if* one parent stays home, taking care of the home and children
is primarily thier *job*, and they should fullfill the majority of it.  Not that
the other parent should get off scot free, but they should have something to
look forward to when they come home.

This is somewhat of an important issue to me, as this was *one* of the issues in
my divorce.  I was working, she was not, and I was the one who ended up
cleaning, doing laundry and fixing dinner after I came home.  Needless to say, I
got tired of that *real* quick.

Now, having said that...  It might do you and your spouse a lot of good to sit
down and discuss what is important to each of you, and what you can change about
the situation to improve it.  Let's just hope that she is open to discussion,
and doesn't insist that nothing is wrong.

I personally don't think much of the solution of hiring someone else to pick up
my mess.  To me, it denotes skewed priorities and irresponsibility.  What state
would the earth be in if we all went around making whatever mess we wanted, and
then expected to be able to pay 'someone else' to clean up after us?  I'm very
much of the 'you make a mess, you clean it up' philosophy which I learned in
kindergarten.

Jim.

    I agree with Jim...
    
    Taking care of a home and children can be hard work, enjoyable and
    rewarding.  If a partner in the marriage makes the choice to assume 
    the primary homemaking responsibilities then they should do the best
    possible job they can.  
    
    But there could be any number of reasons the wife in this situation might
    not be doing as well as it seems she should.  The first thing that I
    thought when I read the note is that we have only heard one side of
    the story.  The fact that the husband admits he has high standards can 
    in fact be similar to the boss who wants us to do things his way and
    in essence he is acting as a manager instead of a partner in the 
    enterprise.
    
    It could be just like in our jobs here in DEC that she is a marginal 
    performer and needs some skills training.  
    
    She should do a better job, why she is not is another question.
    

.24 is right.  Three years ago I had a roommate with "high" standards - 
last one I'll ever have.  I'm not the neatest person in the world, and neither
was this person, but she could never admit it.  There was only one way to
keep something, clean something, etc.  Hers.  And that didn't mean that the
item was clean.  When dusting, for example, nothing above her eye level got
dusted (she was 5').  Cleaning shower walls was the responsibility of the
water coming out of the shower head when someone took a shower.  Using
tile cleaner or similar was out.

I'm not saying that the base note author is this way, but rather that we
haven't heard the entire story, and I have a slightly negative reaction to
excessively neat people anyway.

My parents used the solution mentioned earlier - they hired a maid who
did everything once a week except pick up stuff.

Matt

    Re: .23
    
    >My mother made a fine *clean* home for us *6* children.  And this was 
    >before microwave ovens and permanent press fabrics.
    
    In other words, your mother was an excellent housekeeper so *all*
    housekeepers should be excellent housekeepers.  I'm awfully tired of
    this attitude.  I've known some marvelous communicators, but I don't
    expect *everyone* to communicate like experts.  I've known some
    whiz-bang organizers, but I don't expect *everyone* to manage a major
    event with ease, grace and style.  I've seen some sublime role-players,
    but I don't expect *everyone* to fall into a character and inhabit it.
    
    No one has been saying that the job is impossible.  However, it might
    not be realistic to expect that kind of performance *from* *this*
    *woman* -- not your mother, not anyone else, but this woman with her
    own talents, her own limitations, her own aptitudes.  Dangle all the
    superlative housekeepers in the world in front of my eyes and I'll
    still maintain that some people just aren't cut out for housework and
    some people are just not going to be superlative.

"In other words, your mother was an excellent housekeeper so *all* housekeepers
should be excellent housekeepers."

Not at all.  I myself intentionally fall far short of what my mother's standard
would be.  What I am saying is that taking care of a home and children is
cerrtainly not impossible, as some people seem to say.

If someone is not a good homemaker, then they should find some other field of
work.  I don't think it's too much to expect competancy at one's chosen
profession.  If she's not a good homemaker, when the situation should be changed
so that she is spending her time wisely.

Your complaint only makes sense if you assume that she *must* keep house, *and*
she *must* do it well.  That's not what I'm saying.

Jim.

    >Your complaint only makes sense if you assume that she *must* keep
    >house, *and* she *must* do it well.  That's not what I'm saying.
    
    No Jim, you're not, but the base noter seems to be (last paragraph).
    
    					andrew

    What about those of us who live in houses, who don't have any taste
    for keeping house and don't have the resources to hire someone to 
    keep them well? We keep our houses badly. I get very tired of being 
    judged as somehow less of a person becuase my house isn't up to someone 
    else's standards. I also tend to pick my friends by wether they are
    'neats' or 'messys'. 'Messys' I invite to my home gladly, 'neats'
    hardly ever. 
    
    Bonnie

    -1
    
    Dust and general dis-order are one thing (goodness knows I have quite a
    collection of dust rhinos!), but cat droppings are another matter!
    
    Judi
    

    
    Re: Bonnie
    
    Good points but the end of your paragraph, I don't know.
    I'm very neat, usually, but I don't ever judge anyone elses homes.
    Hell, thats their business. This 'neat' would hate to be excluded
    because I'm a 'neat'.
    
    Re: the base note...
    
    Aside from the previous notes mentioning the value of communication
    I only have this to add. 
    (Not to sound rude) but you don't marry someone to be your maid.
    If she can't meet your standards, then by all means clean the house
    yourself. By the same token, if you do, your wife should understand
    that it is a fetish of yours and she shouldn't get upset when you
    do so.
    
    Raising children is a full time job with unlimited overtime and
    no breaks. Please don't discount how hard a house wife works.
    
    							Hank 

    Hank,
    
    I don't exclude 'nice neats' just the ones that I think will judge
    me! :-)
    
    and in re cat droppings. 
    
    We have a new kitten that has lapses in her box training. I find
    her mistakes in the oddest places (fortunately now on the decline)
    and sometime they were not found right away. 
    
    My house gets cleaned on Saturday. If you come over on a Friday it
    is going to be pretty awful, but if I have enough warning I'll at
    least make sure that the kid who is on the bathroom that week washes
    it early.
    
    One thing that bothers me about this discussion is that it always
    appears that people expect the *woman* to be the one to keep the
    house neat, and if the house isn't neat that she has failed.
    
    I don't think that my or anyone else's personal value has anything
    to do with how their house looks unless that person so choses.
    
    Bonnie

    One person's mess is another's 'cozy clutter' :-)

    Like Bonnie, I am not especially neat.  
    
    Nowadays women make choices.  They decide whether or not to work
    outside the home or to make their career in a partnership with their
    husband and in so doing take on the major responsibilities of the
    household.
    
    I don't view homemakers as women who 'stay home' I view them as women
    who work in the home.  
    
    There are many options...there are many men that like the idea of
    working in the home.
    
    I think the issue in the base note is one where the wife has chosen to
    stay home and is not performing at an acceptable level to the partner
    in the business of marriage and rearing a family.  And as I said we
    only have one side of the story.  There could be any number of reasons
    why this is happening.
    
    

    re:.26
    
    I didn't see Jim's point as being that since *his* mother was an
    excellent housekeeper, that *all* women should be excellent
    housekeepers. Previous responses were talking about how difficult
    it is to keep a house clean with X number of kids, etc., etc.
    
    Jim's point was that his mother didn't find that having X number
    of kids made keeping the house clean an insurmountable task. For
    that matter, neither did *my* mother.
    
    --- jerry

RE: .29

>	I get very tired of being judged as somehow less of a
>	person because my house isn't up to someone else's standards.

This gave me a chuckle, because it works both ways. The other day,
an acquaintance came by to pick something up. I was replacing oil in
my wife's car in the the garage as he walked up. He looked around
and said, in a shocked voice: "My God, this is the neatest garage
I've seen in my life... What are you, a weirdo?" 


>	I also tend to pick my friends by wether they are 'neats' or
>	'messys'. 'Messys' I invite to my home gladly, 'neats'
>	hardly ever.

That's what I meant... Lucky for you you are not neat. You could
get just as tired of being judged as somehow less of a person,
because you do prefer neatness. 
    
-- Ron

    Re: .35
    
    >Jim's point was that his mother didn't find that having X number
    >of kids made keeping the house clean an insurmountable task. For
    >that matter, neither did *my* mother.
    
    Some mothers do, some mothers don't.  I'm not sure I agree with the
    idea of determining that someone should be capable of something simply
    because someone else is capable of it.  I didn't see anyone claiming
    that the job was impossible.  Obviously, it isn't.  However, it might
    be that the job is impossible *for this particular woman.*  I'm not
    saying that it's impossible for her to do anything around the house. 
    I'm saying that it's possible that she just isn't capable (for whatever
    reasons) of satisfying a particular person's definition of what a
    housewife/mother should be able to do.
    
    I suppose it sounds a little strange to say that someone is incapable
    of housework.  After all, it's pretty straightforward, right?  Any
    chore, in and of itself, can be accomplished by any able-bodied
    housewife.  The problem, then, is to do the chore.  Some people are
    simply incapable of making themselves do things that hold no interest
    for them.  Regardless of whether they should be able to motivate
    themselves, the fact is, they can't.  So I don't think it's safe to say
    what this woman should or should not be able to accomplish -- not until
    we know more about her.  Anyway, the thrust of the advice that this
    couple negotiate cleaning chores is that the woman herself defines what
    she is capable of.  So our opinions about what can be expected are
    entirely unnecessary.

    I think that the important issue is that a person should feel good
    about what they do.
    
    If this woman is 'staying home' because she enjoys being lazy and she
    has chosen this as a way of meeting her goals we have one problem.
    
    If she feels she 'has' to stay home and finds the responsibility
    tiresome then we have another problem.
    
    If she 'wants' to stay home and maintain the household and has
    different priorities then her partner there is another problem.
    
    And lastly if she 'wants' to stay home and does not have the
    organizational skills required of a position with a lot of flexibility
    and very little structure there is another problem.
    
    It seems like there is a variety of replies addressing a variety of
    problems.
    

"Some people are simply incapable of making themselves do things that hold no
interest for them.  Regardless of whether they should be able to motivate
themselves, the fact is, they can't."

Then that is a definite "problem".  And it reaches farther then just housework.
If you can't motivate to do things that you need to do, that's going to affect
your whole life.  You need to realize it as a problem and work on it, not just
say, '*I* can't (because I have this problem)' and lower your standards.  What
would happen if every handicapped person had that attitude?

The fact is, she "should" be able to do it.  If she can't, then there *is* a
problem.  As Joyce mentions, it could be any number of problems, which need to
be dealt with differently...

Jim.

	First, thanks for the replies.
	Let me clarify the situation abit If I may.
	When we married, her desire was to be "the women of the house".
	I was to be the "bread winner", a "traditional", "old fashion"
	arrangment you might say.  
	My wife has never worked outside of the home, and (per her 
	indications) does not want to. 
	She by far has the ability to do the "job" quite well when
	she is so inclinded to do so, the problem as I see it it. is that 
    	she is not so inclinded very often. 
    	A fairly typical day for her,
	is to get the kids off to school and then spend an average of
	(believe it or not) 3 to 4 hours on the phone, or visit with
	her mother or friends, until about an hour or so before I get
	home. Example, Yesterday I called home starting at 11:00, I
	finaly reached her at 4:00 (same time kids come home from
	school, she had spent the day with her sister-in-law), to tell 
	her that I would be late. I arrived home at 7:15, to find that 
	she was just starting dinner for the children. The house was a 
	wreck. When I questioned the kids latter that
	night, they indicated, she arrive home the same time as they
	did, then inbetween that time and the time I arrived home,
	she had been on the phone almost consitently. The point that
	I tried to make with her (she is very found of comparing
	her job to mine) was that visiting with friends/family is
	important, but it does not mean that the responsibilities of
	raising a family and maintaining a home can be ignored.
	In my job I have good days and bad days, productive and
	unproductive, but I am expected to apply myself as best I can,
	and even in an unproductive day, I still have the responsibilites
	and accountablity of the job. I am not asking her for perfection,
	just a resonable attempt, as I always tell the children, "do the 
	best you can, that's all that anyone can ever expect from you".
	But I also always point out that your best must be you best,
	not just the words "I did my best".
	In all fairness, yes you only have one side, but the original
	question was, "it is unreasonable for me to expect that a
	resonably clean enviornment be maintained". I will rephrase
	as it is unreasonable for me to expect a resonable effort
	be made to maintain a clean enviornment". 
    

>	I will rephrase
>	as it is unreasonable for me to expect a resonable effort
>	be made to maintain a clean enviornment". 



	 What's unreasonable is that she expects that she is "free" to
	 do anything she wants.

	 It seems to me (and I've seen this quite a few times in
	 homemakers) that she feels she doesn't have a job.  When, in
	 fact, she does.


	 No one is free to do anything they want....everyone has
	 responsibilities....perhaps she feels she doesn't?!


	 kath

    Re: .39
    
    >Then that is a definite "problem".
    
    Exactly.  And simply saying "Well, you *should* be able to do this"
    does nothing to solve the problem.  This is one of the reasons I so
    dislike "should" -- it's incapable of handling a less-than-ideal
    reality.  (I recall a forum in college on racism, sexism and homophobia
    in the fraternity system.  Someone stood up and said that we should all
    be mature and be able to deal comfortably with our sexuality.  I thought, 
    "Well, no shit, Sherlock, but we aren't all dealing with our sexuality
    in a mature fashion -- so now what?"  Nevertheless, she got a round of 
    applause for contributing nothing of value.)

    Re: .41
    
    >What's unreasonable is that she expects that she is "free" to do 
    >anything she wants.
    
    Ah, the latest challenger to Uri Geller is in our midst.  Tell me, oh
    seer, what do *I* expect?  What does my mother expect?

>            <<< Note 868.43 by ACESMK::CHELSEA "Mostly harmless." >>>

>    Ah, the latest challenger to Uri Geller is in our midst.  Tell me, oh
>    seer, what do *I* expect?  What does my mother expect?

	 Could you speak in English please?  WHO is Uri Geller?  Or am
	 I just stupid?




	 My point is that no one should expect a "free ride."  VERY
	 few people actually get it....

	 kath

>            <<< Note 868.43 by ACESMK::CHELSEA "Mostly harmless." >>>


	 Oh, I get it...you're implying that I think I know
	 everything?!

	 There are different ways of going about discussing something
	 than simply rude, digging comments.

	 My perception from the latest note?  She possibly feels that
	 homemaker == no job.....

	 Why don't you just present an alternate perception or rather
	 some help would be nice.

	 GGGRrr....

	 kath

>	He may also have claimed to be clairvoyant which is what I think
>    Chelsea was claiming you think you are, by reading someone else's
>    mind.


	 Well, the palm reader I went to Sunday told me I was...

	 :-)

	 kath

"simply saying "Well, you *should* be able to do this" does nothing to solve the
problem.  This is one of the reasons I so dislike "should""

'Should', is a necessary and vital part of any problem solving process.  It is
necessary to defining an ideal, or realistic goal for the situation. 'Should',
does just that.  Untill you define the goal, and measure how far you are falling
short, you will do nothing about the situation or the problem, because haven't
decided that you have to...

As for it being incapable of handling less then ideal situations... I disagree.
It can easily apply to less then ideal situations just by specifying a less then
ideal situation.

The next step is to move beyond the 'should' and do something (sometimes
*anything*, sometimes nothing if the goal is trivial) to move toward the goal.

What I am hearing you saying is that this woman can't keep house to 'a'
standard, so the solution is to lower the standard to something that she can
meet, so that there isn't any problem.  Sorry, I can't see that as a solution,
or progress in any way.

Jim.

    Re: .48
    
    >What I am hearing you saying is that this woman can't keep house to
    >'a' standard, so the solution is to lower the standard to something
    >that she can meet, so that there isn't any problem.
    
    That's one possibility.  It is possible that the standard she is
    expected to meet is simply unreasonable, given the situation.  I don't 
    know.  You don't know.  I'm not sure anybody here knows.
    
    The point is, the problem is not necessarily with the woman.  Maybe it
    is, maybe it isn't.  I keep hearing strong implications (to say the
    least) that it's *all her fault*.  I'm not buying it, not sight unseen.

    Re: .45
    
    >My perception from the latest note?  She possibly feels that homemaker 
    >== no job.....
    
    You also said that she expects a free ride.  I don't see sufficient
    evidence for that conclusion -- especially since we have precious
    little information about what this woman has been thinking.
    
    >Why don't you just present an alternate perception or rather some help 
    >would be nice.
    
    See .16.
    
    >GGGRrr....
    
    Likewise.  You think you're the only one who gets "miffed" around here?

>            <<< Note 868.50 by ACESMK::CHELSEA "Mostly harmless." >>>
    
>    You also said that she expects a free ride.  I don't see sufficient
>    evidence for that conclusion -- especially since we have precious
>    little information about what this woman has been thinking.

	 Perhaps a bad choice of words.  I meant to imply that, on the
	 outside, it seems that she doesn't want to do it...she wants
	 to do what she wants to do.

	 I never once implied that it was a simple choice of hers,
	 rather than arising from some underlying concern.  I never
	 once meant to imply that I knew anything about the REASONS
	 this woman was behaving in such a way.

	 Communicating with her and finding out WHY she chooses not to
	 do the housework is important.  There has to be some
	 underlying concern, especially, as the basenoter said, since
	 she chose to be a homemaker.

	 She seems to not want to do it!  (Hence the "free ride"
	 scenario, "not do it because she doesn't want to.")  Perhaps
	 that is a gross misinterpretation of her actions, but i think
	 not.

	 Now, WHY does she not want to do it?  Only she has that
	 answer.....and it is something for the basenoter and his wife
	 to work out.......not me...I don't claim to know anything
	 about "married life" and don't want to know.  I don't claim
	 to have any idea as to what her reasons are.
	 
>    Likewise.  You think you're the only one who gets "miffed" around here?

	 Sorry to miff you, but your statements (like the above one)
	 are quite often derogatory....(Since when did I think I was
	 "the only one" like I think I'm something special.)
	 Chelsea...you read me completely wrong...Disguise it as a
	 question, but it still digs.

	 Personal "digs" are not my bag.....I leave those to the
	 Boxers.  I'm not into them, and I refuse to use them.

	 please don't insult my character..its really not worth it,
	 and not really pertinent to the discussion.

	 kath

    This may sound cold and harsh, but if I were in your shoes, and
    after discussing it several times with her she still remains listless
    in what she has AGREED to do (being a housewife does include stuff
    like cleaning the house, shopping, taking care of the kids, sometimes
    handling the bills, whatever you two have denoted the breadwinner
    should not have to do) - I would put it quite simply to her.  Either
    she can get a job and hire a maid/nanny to do the work for her,
    or she can shape up.  I cannot imagine blowing off household tasks
    on a daily basis to chat with friends and family for 6-8 hours (lord
    knows, the news will keep til tomorrow).....
    
    -Jody
    

"That's one possibility.  It is possible that the standard she is expected to
meet is simply unreasonable, given the situation.  I don't  know.  You don't
know.  I'm not sure anybody here knows."

I don't accept accept lowering the standard to make the problem a nonissue as an
acceptable possibility.

We are right, we don't know everything, we only know a little about the
situation.  That's why people have repeatedly said 'talk to her'.  But, it seems
like you want to hand wave the situation away, rather then saying, '*IF* the
situation is as you say, there is a problem.'
    
Jim.

    It might be better to eliminate the word "should" from the English
    Language.  By whose standards "should" we do something, Yours, Mine,
    whose?  Jean Baker Miller, in A NEW PSYCHOLOGY FOR WOMAN" maintains
    that instead of the word "should,"  abetter phrase might be "it
    would be better." I want to clarify that what she is referring to
    is self-reference:  Instead of "I should do something a certain
    way"(implying an unattainable ideal) say "It would be better if
    I do it a certain way." Then it becomes just a preferable way to
    do something.  We then are not failing ourselves.  
           When Two people are trying to resolve conflicts, "It would
    be better" is placed back into the realm of unattainable ideals.
     By who's standard would it be better?  D_SMITH appears to have
    gone into this relationship with a full set of assumptions, as most
    likely did his mate.  "Is it unreasonable for me to expect a
    resonably(sic) clean environment be maintained"  Was a "reasonably
    clean environment" spelled out to each other? or was it assumed
    frm the beginning, by each of you that the other knew what each
    meant?  What is a reasonable effort?  By D_SMITH's definition? by
    his wife's definition.  
    	This, to me, indicates a possible inability to communicate needs
    clearly.  Perhaps her lack of attention (to your standard) has an
    underlying message.  D_SMITH'S writes that his wife indicated that
     she wishes to not work outside the home.  Perhaps his wife has now
    changed her mind and now wants an outside job and is unable to
    communicate it to herself or her husband; perhaps she feels that
    she has to keep her commitment of not working outside the home because
    of her perception of D_SMITH's expectations.
    	I would like to suggest that a line of communication is set
    up between D_SMITH and his wife to help clear up any assumptions
    or preconceptions about expectations that had formed unintentially.
     I would also like to suggest that a third party (counselor)be involved
    to make sure communication remains clear and new assumptions are
    not formed by either person.  The HR community is in no position
    to give advise based on the information provided by one person involved
    in the situation.  We are also not in a position to give advise
    because we all have our own biases which may or may not be related
    to anything D_SMITH and his wife are experiencing. A neutral third
    party(counselor) would be in a much better position to not take sides 
    and make sure communication is bilateral.
    
     Ernie
     
       

    Re: .52
    
    >I never once implied that it was a simple choice of hers,
    
    I disagree.  Simply stating that she expects a free ride implies that
    she's simply choosing not to do the work because she just doesn't want
    to.  It goes no deeper than that.  It doesn't matter why she doesn't
    want to.  As long as she chose not to, she would be making a simple 
    choice.
    
    >but your statements (like the above one) are quite often derogatory....
    >(Since when did I think I was "the only one" like I think I'm
    >something special.)
    
    Or perhaps they're quite often rhetorical.

    Re: .54
    
    >I don't accept accept lowering the standard to make the problem a 
    >nonissue as an acceptable possibility.
    
    Are you claiming, then, that standards are never set too high?  That
    standards are always reasonable and achievable?

"a better phrase might be "it would be better.""

It doesn't make sense to say 'it would be better to be able to be able to do
this in three days', instead of 'I should be able to do this in three days'. You
are avoiding stating the goal or expectation, which are necessary, even if we do
cling to them too strongly sometimes.

No, I'm not claiming that standards are never too high.  A standard may be too
high, it may even be impossible in some cases, but that does not justify
lowering the standards as a problem solving method in and of itself.  Other
objective criteria must be used to determine whether the standard is too high or
not.

Jim.

         Hmm, a world without standards.  Sounds interesting.  We'd never
    get merit raises because we don't know what is expected and what is
    exceptional.
    
         Sounds like an impractical world.  Too easy for the slackers.  
    
                                   Greg

    I like it when people find one of *my* ratholes while I'm away ;-).
    
    Count me among those who dislike that word.
    
    To keep it brief, to me the word 'should' implies all kinds of societal
    pressure, as though I ought to feel guilty for not meeting someone
    else's standards.  Nope- I don't function that way.  Guilt isn't
    a useful motivator for me.  Its taken me far too long to even discover
    I have feelings; other people telling me that instead, I 'should'
    be something/somebody else ('should' have other feelings) is bogus.
          
    Not that I'm addressing the basenoter's concern at all, sorry.
    
    DougO

    FWIW- My ex never did any house work she was raised with a maid and
    never learned how.
    
    -j

    To the author of .0.....
    
    I am a rotten housekeeper, and dislike that fact intensely.  (I
    live essentially by myself, so I'm only affecting me.)
    
    At one point, I was given a book which made a *huge* difference
    in my ability to figure out what needed to get done and how to do
    it.  (Believe it or not, this is not a skill all of us have learned,
    and can be overwhelming.)
    
    See if you can find, somewhere, Sidetracked Home Executives.
    
    Alison

    .58
    
      Again I ask, whose standards, whose expectations?  This issue
    issue seemed to be avoided in your discussion.  If I keep setting
    up expectations for myself or my expectations are set by some one
    close to me and his/her expectations are rarely met, I would surely 
    start feeling pretty bad about myself which will in turn be projected 
    in a negative way onto those who are setting my expectations.  There 
    seems to be an assumption on your part that someones goal should be 
    everyones goal.  
    
    "It doesn't make sense to say "' it would be better to do this in
    three days'"....
    
    So it takes four days instead of three. The task is accomplished
    in either case.  It **might** have been better to do it in three
    but never-the-less, it got done.  If a significant other tells me
    it **should** be done in three days, I will tell him/her where to
    go.  I'll set my own TENTATIVE goals, thank you!   
            I don't have the time to go into they effects of our playing games
    with ourselves and others when we attempt to rigidly enforce behavior
    on ourselves and those close to us.  The primary psychological result 
    of continuously attempting to reach unattainable goals is neurotic 
    tendencies. My previous entry indicated a very good reference to this 
    idea of setting expectations for ourselves and others.  Jim, I
    understand That what I am saying does not make sense to you; this 
    limited media and my limited time prevent me from discussing this idea 
    very deeply. If you perhaps would like a better understanding of the
    idea i have been trying to get across, perhaps reading "A New Psychology of
    Woman," might make it more clear than I am able to.
    	This idea of setting expectations and hard goals with respect
    to ourselves and those who interact with us has been on my thoughts
    quite a lot lately.  I am looking into the doing a research paper
    for my Masters degree on the inability of the employee to control
    task time-lines as psychological stress.  Managers are the SO in
    our work environment who sets our goals and expectations for us.
    As Employees, we have very little control in establishing and
    maintaining the time-line for individual tasks.  Although, as an
    employee we perhaps have somewhat more control in this than in our
    personal relationships.  But only because we tend to enter
    personal relationships with a full set of assumptions, thus
    surrendering our control to the other.  Needless to say, I will
    be using DEC as the company for which I will be doing this study.   
                        
    Ernie
    

"'should' implies all kinds of societal pressure, as though I ought to feel
guilty for not meeting someone else's standards."

This is where we differ.  I believe that there are objective standards.

"So it takes four days instead of three. The task is accomplished in either
case.  It **might** have been better to do it in three but never-the-less, it
got done."

It might be that if the job takes four days, the effort is wasted.  It might be
important that the job be done in three days.  Saying 'it would be better to do
this in three days' does not convey that.

Using objective standards it's possible to determine when there is a problem,
where the problem lies, and what can be done about it.  Using subjective
standards, it's too easy to say 'it's not my fault', 'I couldn't because', 'the
bus was late', 'the page was torn out', 'I forgot', or any innumerable excuses
to deflect any thought about what *is* the problem and how can it be solved.
Usually an excuse is given and the matter is dropped until the next time it
happens and another excuse is used, again...

Jim.

� I believe that there are objective standards.
    
    There may be objective standards in some things (I'm a software type,
    myself, so I wouldn't know (: >,) but the variety of the replies on
    this topic should prove that "neatness" isn't one of them. 
    
    As a visitor, I've been very comfortable in both incredible squalor and
    squeaky clean tidiness.  It seems a matter of personal taste on the
    part of the owners and has nothing to do with their self-image,
    laziness, or voting record. 
    
    Left to my own devices, my apartment tends to academic disarray - lots
    of paper and books strewn about, "scholar's mistress" by the futon and
    couch, furniture rumpled, clean pots left on the stove, - but nothing
    in the way of organic garbage around.  There is little dust (dust
    bothers me) but the bathroom gets, uh, colorful after a while (dirty
    porcelain doesn't bother me).  My cubicle looks like a paper shredder
    was emptied in it, but once every two months or so it gets straightened
    up for purely practical reasons.
    
    I couldn't begin to derive a universal standard from all that!
    
    Ray

    Re: .58
    
    >but that does not justify lowering the standards as a problem solving 
    >method in and of itself.  Other objective criteria must be used to 
    >determine whether the standard is too high or not.
    
    Without analysis, *no* problem solving method is justified.

    So...have you spoken with her?  What did she say?  Did she say she
    didn't care?  She thought she was doing fine?  She was sorry, she'd
    try harder?  Your expectations are too high?  It's your house you
    clean it?  Get a maid?  She's had a bad week?  
    
    What's the word?  Keep us posted.....
    
    -Jody
      

    Get her a headset and a loooong cord.
    
    						Ann B. :-)

"There may be objective standards ... but the variety of the replies on this
topic should prove that "neatness" isn't one of them."

No, it isn't.  Nor have I said that it was, or that there don't also exist
subjective standards.  Cleanliness is a very subjective standard; yet I propose
that there is still a minimum acceptable standard even in that.  Animal
excrement is clearly out.

No, the objective standard that I was thinking of was 'is it possible to keep a
clean house and take care of a couple of kids?'

Jim.

    "objective standard?"  sounds like an oxymoron to me.
    
    quite a bit like "military intelligence"
    
    Why is it wasted efforts if i got something else from spending four
    days on a three day job.  Since we are doing "Iffy" statements,
    perhaps there was something else gained by the time extension instead
    of expediency?  like great conversation or fellowship while getting
    the job done?  then the effort would not be wasted according to
    my **standards.** Now according to yours I guess I would be missing
    something, of course I don't know what since I don't understand
    your standards.  What I am trying to say is its all relative.
    
    Anyway I, too was wondering if anything further has evolved
    for the basenoter.
    
    ERnie
    

    Re .62: I'll second the recommendation of "Sidetracked Home
    Executives"; it's practical, funny, and non-accusatory, and - while
    I'll never be a neatnik - it did help me to get my house into a
    condition that's acceptable to me, and to keep it that way with a
    minimum of effort.
    
    As for the base noter's situation, I, too am curious to know if there's
    been any change. If it's a matter of denial ("I do too do the
    housework, and I don't spend hours on the phone"), maybe some
    diary-keeping would help; if it's a difference in priorities, it needs
    to be talked out. How about a quiz to be taken by both partners,
    listing how they spend their time, how they would like to spend their
    time, and how they perceive that their partner spends time; it might
    get some things out in the open.
    
    -b

Reference to .68


	Yes, I have talked with her, on many occasions.
	Her replies covered most of what yopu indicated, such as
	It's your home, I don't feel comfortable... We looked at
	buying another house, but just couldn't afford it. She
	wanted to do some redecorating, so she did, but it made
	no difference. Another reply was "I keep YOUR house clean",
	"I'll try harder", and "You want perfection". These were all
	given to me on Wensday for the nth time. She had been gone 
	since Monday, on Wensday she returned, and the agreement was
	to give it another try. On thurday she left right after the 
	kids went to school to visit/help a friend. She called home
	at 4:30, 45 minutes after the kids (7, 9, and 11 years old)
	had returned from school. I arrived home at about 5:00ish,
	the house was pretty much the way it had been when I left.
	I washed the dishes and made dinner (my son had a school
	program at 6:30). She arrived home at about 5:45, and chewed
	me out for doing anything. She would not go to my sons show,
	indicating that she dislikes Hallowen, o.k. Yesterday, she
	had a friend over most of the day, so her friend could do
	her laundry. I arrived home at about 4:30, the house was
	not a mess, but was untidy. She started dinner and went to 
	pick up her son at her mothers about 5:15. I did not hear
	from her again until 12:30 a.m. when she came home. I have
	come to the conclusion, that she simply does not have the
	intrest or convictions to the 'HOME' - (meaning more then
	just the house) or precieves what a home is, far differently
	then I.  Her 'extreem' absence from the house, and very strong
	involvment with others, over and above the involvment of the
	home is what I am using to base this conclusion.
	Yes, I have high standards, they are applied to all aspects of
    	my life. I realize others have both higher and lower standards.
    	I think I would be happy with an indication of atleast working
    	towards the standards, rather then just ignoring them. If it took
    	four(4) days to do what I would QUESS is a three(3) day job,
    	atleast it would indicate an effort.
    

    It sounds to me like the house work is a symptom of deeper problems.
    My suggestion is that both of you would benefit by joint marriage
    counceling if you want to continue together.
    
    Bonnie

    Bonnie,
    	Right on the mark!


D_smith,
	Since you have requested responses from the HR community, I will 
assume that you want real solutions to your problem, not just confirmation of 
the attitudes and beliefs that you built up over many years.  I believe that 
you and your wife do want to iron out the difficulties between you. The 
following is an answer that you might not feel comfortable with, but in light 
of the possibiility that you want a real answer, I am going to respond as 
unbiased as I possibly can with the information you have entered throughout 
this note:

    "Yes, I have high standards, they are applied to all aspects of
    my life."
    
    On what grounds do you claim that your standards are "higher?" 
    They are definitely different from mine and your wife's, but are
    they necessarily higher or better?  If so, why? Because they **should** 
be?  According to whose authority, yours? Yes, You have indicated that
    you want perfection (according to your standard).  But you don't seem to 
    think that there is anything wrong with that.  Obsessive-compulsive people 
tend to be perfectionists at the expense of ineffective functioning in other 
parts of their lives.  Ths is not an accusation, just a CAVEAT.         
    You might have talked with (to?)your wife on many occasions, but there is 
little indication that you have communicated with her or perhaps even 
listened to her.  She seems to be trying to tell you that since you are the 
one that sets the expectations in a one way manner, It becomes **Your** home 
not hers, She apparently redecorated **Your* home with **Your** money.  How 
could she feel a part of the home?  When she does try to contribute the only 
thing she can, that is, keeping it clean, She has to do it to your expectations 
not hers. No wonder she doesn't feel that that house is hers. It can't even be 
a home to her if she cannot contribute something of herself to it.  And if she 
does not feel it is her home, no wonder she doesn't want to spend much time 
there!  Who wants to spend much time in a place in which they can't feel at 
home, that they feel belongs to someone else?  Buying a **new** home would not 
change anything, either.  It would still be your home and she would have to 
keep it in order up to your expectations with your money;  Nothing would be 
any different except for the location.  It is rather obvious that your wife 
has different perceptions of what a home is, but you seem to give no validity 
to her own perceptions.  Her extreme absences could also mean that she has 
acquired an aversion to the home since she is not a real part of it from 
her own perceptions. You may be correct, but why don't you talk to her about 
it instead of assuming what you are assuming? 
	 The point of my example is not just that it might take four days 
instead of three days to get a job done, but who is to define the word **job**
and what does the **job** entail?  Who sets that definition? You don't seem to 
allow your wife to take part in setting those definitions.  I don't see 
anything that resembles compromise in your "Talking with(to)" your wife.  
Granted, You just might have overlooked this very important part of any 
relationship in your last replies, but I believe that if compromising was 
truly important to you, you would have mentioned it.  Allowing your wife to 
redecorate your house with your money is not compromise!  Compromising is 
allowing her to make real decisions in the day to day operations of the home 
and investments of her own life.  Again, her attitudes toward work and the 
home might have changed since you two were married, but she might be afraid to 
say anything her knowing your **high** expectations.  She evidently does not 
believe that you value her ideas, her opinions, or that perhaps you don't 
really listen to her even though you think you do.   
	Again, I don't know  your purpose for soliciting responses from the HR 
crowd?  Do you want real answers, or just confirmation of your own rigid 
attitudes?  The only person you can get any real answers from is your wife, 
but only if you make a real effort to listen to her. I believe that you and 
your wife really do want to iron out the difficulties between you but it is 
not easy to maintain a listening attitude toward each other. Again, I want to 
emphasize that it will take the efforts of a neutral counselor to make sure 
that you and your wife get past the emotions and learn how to listen and 
maintain communication with each other. 

Ernie
    
    

    re: .73, .74
    
    I second these thoughts for your consideration.
    
    I would also recommend single counseling in addition to
    together-counseling (like talk alone to a counselor, and then talk
    to the counselor together.....) - this way you can both discuss
    your side of the marriage separately, and then bring your concepts
    forward together.  
    
    Of course, since you asked this community for their opinions, it
    is entirely up to you whether you wish to do as the folks here suggest.
    Resolution will not be easy, in any case - but I think it's important
    if you want a happy marriage...
    
    -Jody

Just a thought: did you own/live in the same place before you were married, or
did you move into a new place together?  It can be real hard to develop an 
emotional 'co-ownership' of a place with someone who moves into it afterwards, 
especially if you've (or they've) lived there a long time.  

The 'original' tenant is used to having the place run their way, on their terms,
with things where they expect to find them; it can be hard for them to adjust to
the idea that the new person may not have the same view of everything.  They 
also need to be *willing* to share the ownership, and to accept compromises and 
even outright changes in how things "should" be.

It's also hard for the new person to a) live in someone else's idea of how a 
house should be run and/or b) to interpose their own ideas without disturbing
the original owner's view of their home.  In turn, they need to be willing to 
take responsibility for contributing to the house, financially and/or by helping
with work, chores, projects, etc. - and to accept that they can't change
everything over to *their* way, either. :-)

It's not easy - for either party.  Some people don't ever manage it.

Sounds like you both need to figure out how you can make it feel like "your"
(plural) home, and what minimum needs and expectations you have of your own and 
of the other person's contributions to make it that.  Write them down, perhaps,
and exchange the lists.  Then, discuss them and see if you can reach some 
mutually agreeable compromise.  As suggested, this may be a good time to involve
a third party (counsellor, clergyman, friend :-) who's good at listening to each
of you - and making sure that the other one hears what's being said.