Conference quark::human_relations-v1

I've been in more then my share of relationships with people with problems. I've
also had my share of problems....

It seems to me that there is very little that you can actually do the *make* the
person get better.  The best that you can do is love them and cherish them.  It
may not seem to have any effect, but I do believe that it rubs off on them. In
the end, you or they may get sick of it, and leave; but always I believe being a
better person for having been in the relationship.  

Some times it even seems like you *have to* leave them for them to realize any
gain, but in time, the gain will show, because now they know what it is to be
loved and cherished, and once they realize that you are not going to accept them
clinging to their problems, they do grow in the end.

Jim.

    Re: .0
    
    >that maybe we should take a breather.  I can see that I am hurting him 
    >and that's he's really not helping me.
    
    If your argument is "Let's take a breather because this isn't good for
    you," then I think you should let him decide what's good for him.  He
    should know his own needs and limitations.
    
    I'm not sure what you mean by "he's not really helping me."  Is there
    something he's supposed to be doing?  A buddy is great, even if he's
    non-utilitarian.  (In fact, he's probably *more* fun if he's not
    utilitarian.)  If you mean that he's making things worse for you, then
    it sounds like taking a break is a good idea.

    .0 - 
    
    I just started reading a *wonderful* book that I think may help you.
    It's called "Making Peace With Yourself" by Dr. Harold Blomquist.
    
    It talks about finding your fears and turning them into strengths.
    Please read it and share your thoughts about it with your therapist.
    
    Hang in there.
    
    Carol
    

    
    	One thing you can do to improve your self esteem is work with
    "affirmations". (I expect that if you're in therapy, you may be already
    doing this) Affirmations are a set of concise, positive, self developed
    statements that one reads or "works" as part of a daily program.
    
    	Your subconscious literally believes what it's been fed. It then
    reflects back what has been put in and the sense of esteem you now
    have is exactly that. There's really no one to blame, because only
    you can change the messages and cause your subconscious to begin
    reflecting something better. The concept of "GI/GO" stands for *both*
    "Garbage in / Garbage out" and "Good things In / Good things Out"
    and is applicable to the idea of how the subconscious works.
    
    	You can develop your own affirmations very simply. First make
    a list of all the things you find about yourself that you do not
    like, cause you problems and tend to wreck the things that are good.
    These may be something like;
    
    	1. I dont see any value in myself and cant understand why anyone
    	   would like me.
    
    	2. I'm weak and never seem to be able to stand up for what I
           want.
    
    	3. I never feel safe enough to be able to tell my SO exactly
           how I feel.
    
    	After making a substantial list (about 10-20 or so - or whatever)
    you write down a corresponding list which basically says *the exact
    opposite*. Be sure to keep your contexting positive (avoid "I'm nots")
    in your replacements. Corresponding to the examples above might
    be something like;
    
    	1. I have plenty to give that a lot of people would love to
           have.
    
    	2. I am strong and solid as a person and I stand up for what
           I want and believe in.
    
    	3. I say exactly how I feel and am confident that this is okay.
    
    	When you've completed your list of opposite, positive replacements
    put it up somewhere you always go - like next to the bathroom mirror
    or pinned to the side of your nightstand next to your bed. Read
    them to yourself - as stupid and silly as it may seem right now -
    on a *daily basis*; make sure that you simply read them twice if you 
    happen to miss a day. You'll see great changes in your self esteem
    in about 1 month of this effort. You can revise your list at anytime
    and as you discover more things you'd like to change. Keep doing
    this as a continuous refinement effort of your self! Good luck to you!
    
    	Joe Jasniewski
                                                                   

    
     	Re .4 -
    
    	BTW, I have my list of affirmations beneath my bathroom mirror!
    
    	JJ

A long time ago I read an article about a person who suffered from
horrible pain. There was no cure. The doctor finally recommended
brain surgery as a last resort, even though it was still in the
experimental stage. The patient, out of sheer desperation, agreed. 

Well, the surgery was not successful, because the pain did not go
away. However, the patient no longer complained - The surgery had
removed the unpleasantness of pain. I was really impressed with the
story, because it proved that treating the symptoms is often just as
effective as treating the cause. 

The problem with low self esteem is that no one can cure it, except
the affected person and **they** cannot change it, because they have
such low self esteem and do not believe in their own capability to
change it. Apparently, because of this 'catch 22' situation, low self
esteem is incurable. 

So, what is the next best thing? Remove the unpleasant results of
low self esteem. Treat the symptoms. That's not half as difficult.

Make a list of the things that bug you about your low self esteem.
And start to train yourself never to do them again. If you want to
rewrite the list in a positive manner (as suggested in a previous
reply), by all means, do. Whatever turns you on. But, what's really 
important is that you continually be on the lookout, never to do
them again. 

This may not cure your low self esteem, but it will remove its
harmful effects. Isn't that what you really want to accomplish? 

Of course, this is not something the experts will agree to, let
alone recommend. But, see if it's helpful to you. 

-- Ron 

    re - .6
    
    Are you referring to a frontal lobotomy?  Ick.
    
    But, I disagree that low self esteem is incurable.  Humans will all
    have *some* doubts about themselves, but low self esteem can be 
    conquered.  It takes time, awareness and ouright desire, but it 
    *can* be done.
    
    Carol

	Re .6 -

	I'm like cracking up over this -

>Well, the surgery was not successful, because the pain did not go
>away. However, the patient no longer complained - The surgery had
>removed the unpleasantness of pain. I was really impressed with the
>story, because it proved that treating the symptoms is often just as
>effective as treating the cause. 

	Yeah, he or she had no consciousness left to percieve it...

	Treating the symptoms instead of treating the *actual cause* is
really The Great Mistake! That's a temporary solution at best. It's careless
and trully outdated thinking, IMHO.

	Joe Jasniewski

I once went through a period of "clinically" low self-esteem.  I
refused therapy and dealt with it myself, pretty much as suggested in
.6 (minus the surgery!).  When I was done, I felt and seemed pretty
well balanced for the next, oh, 9 or 10 years.  (: >,)

I'm currently going through one of them thar personal crises that you
read so much about in this conference, and finding that the lack of
self-esteem which has been quietly dozing in the last decade is now
actively interfering with many supports that would otherwise be
available.  Getting rid of the symptoms is possible, with a lot of work,
but you remain without protection against tough times when they hit, and
the symptoms can then return with renewed force.

This time I'm going to try for the cure...

Re .2:

�    I'm not sure what you mean by "he's not really helping me."

I've said similar things and meant them in a self-accusatory way, not as
an attack on the friend - i.e., "he tries so hard and comes up with such
reasonable arguments, but I'm incapable of making progress, he should
just give up", and so on.  Your suggestion of _not_ thinking in
utilitarian terms and therefore avoiding the whole "success" / "failure"
choice seems a good idea.

I hope the base noter is finding these suggestions as helpful as I am.
Keep 'em coming!

Ray

Low Self Esteem is certainly curable.  We get a sense of our own self esteem as
we grow up from other people.  How people treat us can give us some measure of
self esteem if we internalize it.  We can raise our own self esteem if we
concentrate on the positive, and not on the negative?

Jim.

Re .10:

� We can raise our own self esteem if we
� concentrate on the positive, and not on the negative?

Although the above makes sense logically, anyone who is able to follow
it probably does not have that urgent a self-esteem problem - it is sensible
advice for sensible people.  (: >,)

I disagree with .6 about the value of treating just the symptoms, but
Ron is right in pointing out the "Catch 22" with the direct approach to
the problem.  In my case, I can try as much as I like to concentrate on the
positive - the fact is that I will always come up with a way to turn that
mutha around into something either worthless or negative.  Although the
ingenuity required is sometimes entertaining, it can be _very_ frustrating
for others as well as oneself.

That may be why some of the replies take an indirect route, avoiding the
reasoning mind's knee-jerk reaction (e.g., reading aloud a silly list that
you don't particularly agree with, but NOT ARGUING WITH IT).


Re .0:  I don't recommend my "solution" of a decade ago but I'll
toss it into the pot anyway.  It _did_ involve taking a breather from
just about everything going on in my life - sex, drugs, rock'n'roll,
liquor, writing-for-publication - basically dropping anything that could be
used to feed overwrought emotions and _leaving_ any scene in which I could
feel a "snit" coming on.

I was bored and depressed a lot of the time, but this drying-out period
broke me out of the self-destructive cycle I'd established and I was back
into the real world in a year or so.

Ray

RE: .11


>	I disagree with .6 about the value of treating just the
>	symptoms ...

Ray, look at it this way: regardless of whether low self esteem is
curable or not, it is only curable by one totally changing one's
outlook of oneself. This must --almost, by definition-- take a long
time. Thus, a cure -- if possible at all-- is at best a very long
term proposition. 

But what really bothers the base noter is NOT the low self esteem,
per se, but rather, the outcome of that frame of mind. So, while
working on the long term 'cure', if they wish, why not correct the
bothersome behavioral aspects (while knowing full well that this is
an uphill battle, because the underlying cause for the problems is
still there)? 

If anything, dealing with the symptoms may well help with whatever
cure it is possible to attain. This is, because the external world
will perceive an improvement in the person's behavior, interpret it
as a 'cure' and positively reinforce the process. 

-- Ron

    re: .0
    
    If PMS is the cause of "mood swing" (which it can be)
    PMS can be controlled by diet/excercise and meds (see your
    gyn)
    
    Once the PMS is under control, you will be in a better
    frame of mind to deal with the low self-esteem.  
    
    
    emh
    

    Try a "Self-Esteem" subliminal.  It can really help!
    
    Good Luck!
    Barb