Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    Although the problem of alcohol abuse has not been solved, I feel there
    has been significant changes in how a large part of the population uses
    alcohol.
    
    I am finding it more difficult to bring a bottle of Perrier or Seltzer
    to a party and having it last through the evening then wine. ;-) 
    People will drink their one or two drinks and then be ready to switch
    to the non-alcoholic beverage.  And many people choose not to drink at
    all.  
    
    There was a news bulletin Friday, that stated distilleries were loosing
    money for the first time, due to the fact that the public is not
    purchasing hard liquor.
    
    That's the good news...

    re .1 - Maybe we should give credit to the stronger Drunk Driving laws
    though.
    
    

    re: .1-.3

    � And it all happened w/o legislation!

    Granted, we haven't seen the return of Prohibition, BUT...I'm not the
    only "youngster" that was affected by my legislators' decision to
    ban the sale or distribution of alcohol to persons under the age of 21.

    I, personally, prefer not to drink.  In my household, my parents always
    had a glass of wine with their meal, and occasionally offered it to
    their children so that they'd become accustomed to it.  I'd have a sip
    now and then, but I preferred Kool-Aid or Coca-Cola!  :-)

    For me, (just became 21 recently), that law did not keep me from
    driving while intoxicated, but it kept me from going dancing or meeting
    friends at clubs.  That's my main gripe about the law.  Most club
    owners have an easier time by simply restricting access to those under
    21.  The clubs that cater to the 18-21 crowd are in many cases few and
    far between probably because of the profit factor.
    
    While vacationing in Europe last summer, I was able to enter a bar (along
    with my 14 year old cousin) and order a beer.  I wonder what the alcohol
    abuse/driving while intoxicated rates are over there, and if they are 
    lower...then why?

       - Larry  

    re: .4
    
    Yeah, when we were in France last year and ordered wine with our
    meals in the bistros, the waiters regularly brought out three
    glasses -- one for me, one for spouse, one for 14-year-old
    daughter.  But not for 5-year-old son.  And I noticed that nobody
    seemed to notice either way whether she drank any or not. 
    
    And nobody seemed notice wehther we ordered wine or bottled water. 
    Sometimes the staff at restaurants in the States acts like  if
    you're not ordering something that costs $3.95 (meaning mostly
    alcoholic drinks), you aren't worth bothering with. 
    
    I think the lower alcohol consumption at parties and in groups is
    mostly peer pressure -- the same stuff that pushed many of us into
    starting to drink before we were ready is now pushing us not to
    drink when we might want to.
    
    I know that I've felt pressure several times because my favorite
    drink is Scotch, straight, as a before or after dinner drink. 
    (Hey, Scottish ancestors, y'know :) ) And only one -- Scotch is
    not something you want to get drunk on.   I've had strangers as
    well as friends tell me that I should be drinking something that's
    not so alcoholic -- even though there's roughly the same amount of
    raw alcohol in my shot of Scotch as there is in their 6-oz glass
    of white wine or their 12-oz bottle of Corona.  
    
    I'm not saying that peer pressure is necessarily a bad thing, but
    it seems like many of the people who aren't drinking aren't doing
    it from any increased awareness but simply from conformity.  If
    drinking to excess at parties comes back into style, they'll be
    assuming everyone should drink to excess again.
    
    --bonnie

     Re: .4 (Larry):

	  Generally, drunk driving arrest rates go down, as the age at
     which alcohol may be legally consumed goes down.  In the US, where the
     drinking age has recently been increased from 18 (usually) to 21
     (usually), the drunk driving arrest statistics show that the
     distribution of ages of offenders tracks the drinking age -- there is
     a sharp peak at 2 to 3 years after the age of consumption, which
     declines very sharply to about 30% of the peak value and then much
     more slowly.  The increase and decline on either side of the drinking
     age plus 3 years are just about exponential.

	  In NH, when the age of consumption was increased from 18 to 20
     and then to 21, the underage drunken driving arrest rate was not
     affected -- the same proportion of 14, 15, 16, and 17 year olds were
     arrested as before.  (Yes, there are drunk driving arrests of persons
     as young as 14.)  The drunk driving arrest rate of 18 to 20 year olds
     was flattened somewhat, and the drunk driving arrest rate of 21 to 25
     year olds was substantially increased.

	  Oh, yes -- there was one other sigificant effect.  The total
     number of drunk driving arrests went up by 30%, a change whose
     magnitude is not linear in either population increase, enforcement
     effort increase (patrol-house devoted to DWI hunting), or the product
     of these two.  The only reasonable explanation is that the proportion
     of drunk drivers in fact increased.  Given the linearity of the effect
     with the changes in drinking age, I strongly suspect causality.

	  (I happen to have analyzed NH drunk driving arrest data supplied
     directly by the NH State Police, in some detail, earlier this year for
     a friend's college paper.)

	  I have hypotheses as to mechanism, but not data to back them up.

			       Brian Hetrick

    RE: .5
    
    I was in France this year and inquired about the legal drinking age.
    According to one resident, the legal drinking age in France is 16.
    Since your daughter may look older than her years, was accompanied by
    her parents, and most importantly, since French society is not as litigous 
    as our own (which other society is?), you were allowed to exercise 
    parental control (rather than Big Brother.)  I think that under the 
    circumstances, it was a nice option for you.
    
    Shawn

    re: .7
    
    Yes, Kat could pass for 16 pretty easily.  She got a kick out of
    being treated like a grownup.  She even poured about a tablespoon
    of very nice ros� into her glass one time and sniffed it -- and
    said, "Oh, yuck," and ordered a Coke. 
    
    The remarkable thing to me was that it didn't seem to matter to
    anybody whether she, or we, was drinking.  It just didn't seem to
    be an issue.  (We were in the south of France, if that makes a
    difference.)  It wasn't something you "should" or "shouldn't" be
    doing, it was just a choice, like what kind of sandwich to have
    for lunch.
    
    --bonnie

    France does, however, have a pretty serious problem with young men
    (mostly) who splatter themselves and others over the highways while
    intoxicated and driving at high speeds....
    
    I don't have stats, but my cousin, who has been working for the
    Herald Trib in Paris for the last 12 years, told me that the French
    press has had an increasing number of articles about the problem
    in recent years.
    
    R.
    

    Safe courteous driving did not appear to be a French virtue, with
    or without alcohol! 
    
    --bonnie

    France also didn't have any top speed limit until the past few years,
    and at the time it was instituted, there was considerable doubt
    as to whether or not it would be observed and/or enforcable.
    
    Drinking wine with meals is the custom throughout Europe, not just
    in France.                                              
    
    -roger
    

    
    	Having been travelling around in Europe for more than 30 years
    	I can safely say that the drinking laws/habits/attitudes are
    	quite different than in the States.
    
    	Bonnie's experiences in France are an example. That *is* usually
    	the way the French react on drinking wine with meals. In most 
    	countries it is an important distinction whether you order a drink
    	just like that or complementary to a meal. Along the German high-
    	ways you can virtually only get an alcoholic beverage if you order
    	something to eat with it (nobody checks whether you eat it though)
    
    	As against that, it has happened to me in one of the Munich offices
    	(I am walking a thin line here probably) that somebody offered me
    	a bottle of beer from the crate under his desk at 11:00 AM, saying
    	that to the Bavarians beer as such was not considered an alcoholic
    	beverage - more something like a coke or any other "soda-pop". To
    	complete the picture: this was not a collegue with an alcohol pro-
    	blem; the bottles were also on sale in the many "refreshments" 
    	machines.
    
    	Go to Scandinavia and you have to be something close to a Howard
    	Hughes to be able to buy alcohol. They taxed the living goodies
    	out of the spirits up there.
    
    	Basically it boils down to this: The usage and availability of
    	spirits becomes more widespread, socially acceptable and easier
    	to obtain the closer you get to the Med.
    
    	Quite accidentically this is in line with the dispersion of the
    	Roman Catholic faith throughout Europe ..... well ... is it ??
    	Aye, I can see a new topic coming out of this statement ... ;^)
    
    	One exception though: in this context Ireland, the beautiful and
    	pleasant country that I am living in for the duration of my 
    	tempory contract, is an exception to the above "rule of thumb" in
    	as much as that the countries attitude towards the R-C faith and
    	its attitude towards "having a pint (or two)" is definitely al-
    	together more "mediterranean" than a lot of areas that from a 
    	geographical point of view are in their proper place !
    
    	So, as far as the future EEC is concerned: The warmer it gets,
    	the easier they get on alcoholic beverages. Something to keep in
    	mind when planning for the next trip to Europe.

    RE:
    .12> Having been travelling around in Europe for more than 30 years
    .12> I can safely say that the drinking laws/habits/attitudes are
    .12> quite different than in the States.
        
         It surely sounds that way.
    .12> ..........    	                             ...Along the German high-
    .12> ways you can virtually only get an alcoholic beverage if you order
    .12> something to eat with it (nobody checks whether you eat it though)
    
        But does someone check whether you drink it or save it till U get home?

    .12> ............. it has happened to me in one of the Munich offices
    	(I am walking a thin line here probably) that somebody offered me
    	a bottle of beer from the crate under his desk at 11:00 AM, saying
    	that to the Bavarians beer as such was not considered an alcoholic
    	beverage -  
    	To complete the picture: this was not a collegue with an alcohol pro-
    	blem; the bottles were also on sale in the many "refreshments" 
    .12> machines.

         You mean to say a DEC employee can drink not only under the table but
         on the desk as well while on the job..?  
         Wao ! I always thought DEC rules are universal. My reason being DEC
         plants in the US are not allowed any Beer/Wine even at company events,
         like family outing on a saturday, outside the company grounds in a
         private picnic establishment. Becuase it is still considered company
         sponsored event. As a matter of fact several years ago two guys were 
         let go for drinking beer in their car which was parked in a DEC owned
         parking lot in a western-Mass. plant. The vendor machines have them 
         beers too in Munich ?
       
 RE: ....the closer to the Med. the more of...      
     .12> So, as far as the future EEC is concerned: The warmer it gets,
     .12> the easier they get on alcoholic beverages. Something to keep in
     .12> mind when planning for the next trip to Europe.

I previously thought the reverse was true. That the colder it gets the more
drinking there is among the populace. Like various articles have attributed the
"frequent drinking of vodka" in the USSR as mainly due to the brutal russian
winters. 

If WE've come a long way, then how many more km/miles is left for US to get 
there, any estimates, someone ?

:Note 820.0                  We've come a long way...
:PENUTS::JLAMOTTE

:    Every now and again I look around and I see things that are right with
:    the world.  I thought it might give balance to the problem issues here
:    if every now and again we mention that which is right or good in our
:    world.
	as opposed to "right"....i would think..."better"
    
    i'm not sure what's "right" or wrong but many things seem "better"
    
    women can vote
    and work
    and be managers
    and gays can come out of the closet
    and raise kids
    and people can get divorced
    and live together
    and people can be single parents and be happy and secure
    sick pay, vacation pay, holiday pay, overtime pay, rewards
    and recognitions, benefits, profit sharing, company payed
    education and expenses, quicker and easier access to other
    parts of the world, glasnost, long hair on guys, short hair
    on women.......
    on and on....
    
    now....we just have to keep tweaking it a little more to make
    it all even better!
    
    
    

.13>	I always thought DEC rules are universal. My reason being DEC plants 
.13>	in the US are not allowed any Beer/Wine even at company events

	Not a chance.  In Switzerland, they get four weeks vacation, 20 days
	of holiday time in addition to the vacation, and you know how we get
	a turkey for Christmas?  They get a huge cheese/meat basket complete
	with a good bottle of wine, and most importantly...

	...they get an extra month's salary.  And believe me, Swiss salaries
	are pretty damn high.

	I drank both champagne and wine (not during the same visit =8-)) at 
	the Customer Support Center in Glattbrugg, Switzerland.  It'd been
    	given to my friend by a manager for a job well done.  Most everyone
    	I know there has a bottle or two of wine and some beer in a nearby
    	refrigerator.  It's no big deal.  It's accepted and dealt with in a 
    	responsible manner.

.13>	If WE've come a long way, then how many more km/miles is left for US 
.13>	to get there, any estimates, someone ?

	I have no estimates, but I have spent a fair amount of time in some
	European countries and believe Americans are far more uptight about
	many more things than most Europeans.  On the other hand, Americans
    	are generally more open about issues such as racism, homosexuality,
    	acceptance of unique lifestyles, etc.

.14>	and gays can come out of the closet

	I know this is true, but just tonight I was in another conference
	and read a note from someone calling a bisexual person abnormal and
	said that this particular bisexual person had no reason to like men
	since he had access to so many attractive females.  It is beliefs 
	such as this that should flag us that there's much more education
	to be done.

							   Carla

    There are a lot of examples of different attitudes and ways of doing
    things at work in multinational companies in different countries.
    I worked in France for a couple of years, and they have the 4 weeks
    vacation as a new employee, 13 th month salary as a bonus at the
    end of the year. What really surprised me at first though was seeing
    beer and wine for sale in the cafeteria at lunch time. Most people
    seemed to have one or the other, for them its as normal and natural
    as a can of soda.
    
    A company has to adapt its rules and methods according the customs
    and culture of wherever its doing business.
    
    One big cultural difference I noticed is that the American way of
    dealing with a 'problem' in society is to control it more tightly
    - take drinking and driving for instance, one part of the US
    approach is to raise the drinking age, and enforce it more
    carefully, is that effective, probably not. In Europe kids
    grow up with alcohol, and by the time they get to around 18,
    they know how to handle it, and behave more responsibly.
    
    Same thing with the drugs problem in the US, each administration
    declares its 'war on drugs'. Each time there is more enforcement,
    more personnel involved, more money, get tougher with countries
    who supply etc. This approach has always failed in the past,
    I wonder what chance it has of succeeding this time around.
    
    Steve