Conference quark::human_relations-v1

Hmmm....  I have mixed feelings about this one.

Sometimes, yes, I want to know how a person feels about some issues that are
important to me, or I want to know what issues are important to the other
person.  But, occasionally, when I find out, I find that the person has
strongly differing views on the subject, and perhaps has little tolerance for
my opinion (or me for the other person's!).  If the situation is such that I
must continue to deal with this person, it can become uncomfortable knowing
that we oppose each other strongly.

I have certainly worked, and even been good friends, with people who held views
that I disliked, or who disliked my views (often enough one implies the other).
In some cases, we avoided discussions of the points of contention.  In others,
we used each other as a way to find out why the other side believes the way it
does, and could talk civilly.  In some others, contact was kept minimal and
very formal.  This last was the most uncomfortable.

Usually, I find that I *desperately* want to know how someone feels about
certain issues, especially if I am becoming friendly, but I avoid seeking
feedback to avoid the problems described above.  But any little opening, and I
probe.

						Brian

    Yes, it would remove some of the frustration. I think people hold
    themselves back in the beginning of a relationship because we've
    been hurt on previous occasions when we've disclosed our true feelings.
    
    That's been the case with me up until a few years ago. Now I'll
    say what I think (mostly, when asked!) and if anyone doesn't care
    for my opinion, that's okay.
    
    How do you feel about that?

    re:0
    
    I've been in situations like this often. In fact, I come from a
    family like this, so it is a bit of a sore point for me. I've
    learned two lessons from this:
    
    1) Like Michaels says, you have to ask, if your not getting a response,
    and you want a response. "How do you feel about ----?"
    
    2) You may still not get a response, or may not get a response you
    consider adequate. My solution to this is to fill my life with
    responsive people, and reduce contact with non-responsive people.
    This makes for much more satisfying relationships.   
    
    -roger
    
    

It's a cultural thing. Americans (assuming we have a homogeneous
culture here, which we don't) tend to keep it close to their chest.
Europeans (assuming they have a homogeneous culture over there,
which they don't) are much more open and responsive. 

In this culture, we are careful NOT to give feedback. When we are
pressed for a response, we try to provide the 'socially accepted'
feedback. If necessary, we will twist the truth and express a boiler
plate response. 

	o "The cheque is in the mail", rather than "Oops... I
	  forgot to mail it". 

	o "Don't call us, we'll call you", rather than "Sorry, good 
	   bye".

	o "The idea has some merit", rather than "I am enthusiastic 
	  about your concept".

	o "I'll have to think about it" rather than "Sorry, I don't 
	  like it".

	o "Let me take a rain check on that date" rather than "I 
	  don't want to go out with you".

It sometimes helps to press for a straightforward answer, but not
often. 

Many people in this culture find the 'open' approach irritating.
When negative, they feel it implies rejection (as it sometimes
does). While they will often say they do not like to be kept in the
dark, I somehow suspect they actually PREFER this lack of feedback. 

-- Ron

    
    re .4
    
    > It's a cultural thing.....
    
    Ron, I have to contradict you. In my opinion it's not a cultural
    thing, it's a personal thing. Some have the self-confidence to tell
    the truth, some haven't.
    
    The 5 examples you mentioned in .4 are exactly the same you can hear
    in Germany every day...
    
    
    	Guido�_from_Germany      

    It's the classic feeling of "I'm not one to judge" or "it's none
    of my business unless asked for an opinion" that makes people hesitant
    to offer their .02 (unless you've met my twin sister, Terri.  She
    gives LOTS of opinions!)
    
    Tammi
    

    
    
    Re:0
    
    Perhaps the meaning of: RETICENT : will help.
    
    Re: The 5 Examples:
    
    Will the non-dictionary definition of : REACTION-FORMATION : help ?
    
                      OR
    
                       ?
    
    `ari
    

    re:7  Your note is so cryptic that I don't understand it: what do
    you mean by reaction formation?
    
    re:6  She isn't your evil twin sister, is she? ;^)
    
    re:5  I disagree, in that I think this is a cultural trait, with
    exceptions, of course. I don't see it as European vs. American,
    as I think many Americans carry with them the cultural baggage of
    their pre- American ethnicity. Mine is English, which is a relatively
    retentive culture, as are most of the northern European countries.
    The early settlement of America by the English and other related
    cultures set the tone, I think, for America. I find the Mediterranean
    countries to be more emotionally expressive; such is the varience
    just within Europe.                                             
    
    This is my theory, anyways.
    
    -roger
    
    

RE: last few

It **is** a cultural thing, even though my .5 grossly oversimplified
it. 

An American friend of mine was sent to France by his employer (not
DEC) and worked, shoulder to shoulder, with a French technician, for
several weeks. My friend is a very friendly, likable guy. He is also
fun to be with. Before departing for home, he either invited the guy
out or just said he hoped they will meet again (I forget which) to
which the Frenchman honestly replied, no thanks, I am not interested
in meeting you socially. 

Talk about straight from the shoulder feedback! 

Now, this is a bit extreme, even for a Mediterranean culture. My 
point is that NO WAY would this happen in The States. Another 
American would have jovially said, "Sure, let's take a raincheck 
on that", regardless of where in The States he comes from.

Another example happened to me, many years ago. I grew up with this
boy in boarding school, met him again years later when we were both
reassigned to the same Air Force base (this is Israel, now) and
became best buddies again, almost inseparable. We even dated the 
same girls a couple of times. 

We lost contact for quite a few years and then, one day, he walks
into my store (I used to sell and service audio equipment for a
living). Big, happy reunion. Turns out he's selling insurance or
something. We chat for quite a while.

As he gets up to leave, I say --quite sincerely-- that I hope we'll
be seeing each other from time time, to which he says: "Don't kid
yourself. I live in another town. I won't drive to see you, and you
won't drive to see me. Better be honest and say good bye.". So we
were honest and said good bye and I never saw him again to this day.

Would you believe this kind of 'feedback' in Maynard, MA? Thinking
back, I wasn't offended in the least (he had no intention of
insulting me, was simply honestly responding to me). I would be, if
someone said the exact same thing to me here. 

That's what I meant by 'a cultural thing'.

-- Ron 

    
    Re: Note 806.8 By Goleta::BROWN
    
    >> What is meant by Reaction Formation .. cryptic ? NO !!
    
    Reaction Formation - Defined....--->
    
    It is sometimes possible to conceal a motive from oneself by giving
    STRONG expression to its OPPOSITE. Such a tendency is called Reaction
    Formation.
    
    Simplistic example:
    >> Call me anytime >> Are you sure ? What he/she calls at 3.AM ?
    OR  >>   My/the doors are open, let me know if you need anything I'll be 
    more  than glad to help >>
    
    He/she knocks on the doors sometime later then the response has now
    become. "Holy merde, what the funk are you doing here ?" You tell me !
             
    Ref. note 810.7 & others for more complex examples. 
    
    `Ari.
    

This is another of those notes that took along time for me to answer.

What follows is all my opinion only through some observations
 a next-unseen will probably save you time

Feedback can be very hard to give, (IMHO) Culturally our "heroes"
(male/female) are the strong silent type, the modern so-called hero
that cries and acts "human" is an anti-hero(deep down inside we know
he/she isn't a *real* hero). 
Parents many times tell us don't be a crybaby,
all this equates to "don't give out any clues to your emotions".    

Also for those who have been hurt/taken-advantage-of/disapointed/lonely/
or-learned-to-live-with-being-lonely(not the same as alone or even the same as 
lonely[could be another whole note topic]) there is a reticence to reveal
much of ourselves.

some get so paranoid about it that any response becomes difficult.
(if you get slapped around long enough *because* you opened your mouth
 you stop opening it)(slapped can = verbal)


there is also the reluctance to cause hurt or pain that may keep us from
giving feedback as in:
#1   "well what do you think of me"
#2   "You're an *ssh*le"

it would be easier in the above case to merely not communicate and hope that
person #1 goes away of their own volition.
(the above answer might also be not given by those with who do not like 
getting slugged ;-})

it takes a great amount of trust to open up to someone, sometimes that trust
comes from friendship that you know will not disapoint you, sometimes through
love. 
I have known some people for many years and there are lots of things I would
never tell them about myself or give them my opinions about themselves. 
On very rare occasions I have found someone to talk to/confide in even after
only a short acquintance, something clicks in my alleged-brain and it
feels right to open up.

there is a lot of illusion/delusion in the world we spend time trying to
live up to some ideal and don't want to tell anyone we aren't the ideal
dream-of-media-inspiration nor are they, so we go through life not
communicating out of fear.

Re:806.11

>>..we go through life not communicating out of fear.>>

FEAR OF ..? If I may ask. Possibly some of these,  perhaps ?

a) Fear of our inner demons, that might return to haunt us ?

b) Fear of our goulish opinions that might decide to visit 10 yrs. after ?

c) Fear of betraying the **real-self** hidden inside us ? 

d) Fear of allowing the bleeding ulcers inside from being seen on the surface ?
  
   etc....

Is that why we are encouraged: "pretend to pretend !" "fake being nice"..
"act nice"..and we pay the price - damage of our individual and collective
psyche ?   As exemplified in note 810.xx..? 

Just a question!
'Ari.

    

>          <<< Note 806.12 by BTOVT::BOATENG_K "FACTOR::Resilience" >>>
>            -< Excuse me, can I ask a question (frank answer s.v.p >-

>Re:806.11

>>>..we go through life not communicating out of fear.>>

>FEAR OF ..? If I may ask. Possibly some of these,  perhaps ?

>a) Fear of our inner demons, that might return to haunt us ?

Yes, I think we may all have some. I think we all suffer from feeling
that we can dishout some honesty but have trouble accepting it as it hurts
or opens old wounds to be criticised  ourselves.

>b) Fear of our goulish opinions that might decide to visit 10 yrs. after ?

do you mean afraid we might have an opinion now that will be different in
the future? hopefully we all can accept change in ourselves, if an opinion
was wrong we correct it, if it was right it stays right.


>c) Fear of betraying the **real-self** hidden inside us ? 

Do you want "your *Real* self" showing to just anyone? :-)/2

>d) Fear of allowing the bleeding ulcers inside from being seen on the surface ?
  
>   etc....

>Is that why we are encouraged: "pretend to pretend !" "fake being nice"..
>"act nice"..and we pay the price - damage of our individual and collective
>psyche ?   As exemplified in note 810.xx..? 

>Just a question!
>'Ari.

Sometimes respect for the other person keeps one from speaking the truth.
sometimes a third party is involved in ways that make polite dealings
mandatory. yes it is damaging to the individual, sometimes that person
agrees to accept that damage(agrees to themselves none others know)
as a price to achieve some other goal. There is (IMO) an "honorable"
and "dishonorable" thing to do in every situation. there are morals
to live up to, doing what is right can be very difficult.

I think I've drifted away from the original question in this note so I'll
quit here.    

If you want to know what someone else is thinking, it's usually better to
ask than to guess.  All too often we guess and end up responding to our own
illusions instead of reality.  Sometimes it's easier to live with an illusion
than to search for truth, but reality can't be fooled.  In the long run,
such responses are usually ineffective.

I recently took a course on effective communication which presented
the following model for giving and receiving feedback.  Perhaps others
will find this useful even though it's not directed to the same context
as the original question.

Giving Feedback:

    Purpose is to help people improve.  Let people know how
    they are doing and how you are feeling.
  
    Feedback should never be imposed, that's giving direction.
    Reviewing someone's performance is not giving feedback.
  
    Ask for feedback if you want it.  Ask others if they want it.
    "Would you like some feedback on how you presented that?"
  
    Must be specific, descriptive, and given directly to the person.

    Ask person to receive feedback to give their perspective first
    (this is not intuitive, but very important).
    People only understand feedback within the context of their own
    experience.  Help people where they are.

    - Start with positives, what the person receiving
      feedback thought was good.
    - Reinforce their positives, and/or point out others
      as appropriate.
    - Ask what they thought could be improved.
    - Finally, offer your own suggestions for what would
      make it better (try to be specific and give examples).

    Re:
    .14> Sometimes it's easier to live with an illusion than to search for 
    truth, but reality can't be fooled..>   Precisely !
    
    Could it be: There are times that the naked truth can make us
    nakedly uncomfortable ?
    
    So to avoid facing the uncomfortable truth/reality we fake it, just so
    we can pass the "feedback test" by being perceived as nice ?