Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    Thanks!
    
    
    
    After sitting here most of the week dwelling on a past interest
    in my life (last year at this time), your note really OPENED my
    eyes, and brought me back to reality....QUICK :-)
    
    I never really thought of it as the way you worded it "why put
    up with shit from someone who loves you (or even if they say they
    are your friend :-) when you wouldn't put up with shit from a total
    stranger", but its so true to the word.
    
    
    Kelly

    re: .0
    
    Worded differently than I would, but very profound.
    
    You are right!
    
    Tammi
    

    Such strong statements.....but they seem to hit right to the core!
    
    K

    
    	Re .0-
    
    	People are co-dependant. Rare is the case that shows a person
    to be a true independant, in terms of what makes them tick or whatever.
    That is something that has to be re-learned, IMHO, as society itself
    is what teaches people to be this way. It's a social dis-ease of
    the mind, yet, just as much of a dis-ease as the ones going around
    "without a known cure". It can kill you. 
    
    	Fortunately, there is a cure for this dis-ease. Often, the cure
    starts when a person makes up their own mind that _enough is enough_
    already - this pain is and has been _just too much_ and their going to
    *do* something about it for themselves. Some start by going to
    professional therapy, some read "Co-dependant No More" by Melody
    Beatty, some go to meetings which I see are available *every* day of 
    the week for God's sake! Availability is always proportional to need.
    
    	Joe Jas

    Kris--
    
    Although I applaud your commonsense on one level, I ask you to be
    warned--NEVER SAY NEVER.
    
    Someday *you* may find yourself wading through the same s*** you
    deride others for in your note.  You really can't say until or whenever
    it happens to you.
    
    Keep your mind open..
    
    Jane
    
    "Veteran of the I'LL NEVER DO *THAT* AGAIN school" 

    re .0, Kris-
    
    Solid note.  Hard to say those things directly to someone in pain, so
    I'm glad you didn't direct it to anyone in particular.  I really liked it.
    
    re your ideas/not-full-blown-theories...I have some thoughts;
    
    > 1) People are so deathly afraid of being alone that they are willing
    > to mangle their own psyches into a twisted wreckage and cling to the
    > smoke of forgotten promises rather than be flung into the "abyss" of
    > singlehood.
    
    Yup...being *un*single gets comfortable...so much so, that the return
    to singlehood can be frightening.  One must be fairly strong and
    self-confident to *enjoy* being single...until you look at what people
    do to themselves to stay in bad relationships.  Then the strength seems
    to flow from within...and singlehood becomes attractive and more easily
    approached.
    
    > 2) People lose sight of the fact that the "love" they believe they are
    > experiencing is probably nothing more than hormones gone rampant.
    
    I don't think you are giving people enough credit.  Some loves go way
    beyond hormones.  A "meeting of the minds" is one such example...and
    can engender affection, attraction, and committed love.  Your example
    is probably true quite often, but it is stated a bit too strongly for
    me to fully endorse it.
    
    > 3) People have bought the fables of the happy ending, love conquering all
    > and eternal bliss which "true love" brings, and are willing, for reasons I
    > can't explain, to sacrifice their own sanity in order to hold on to their
    > delusions. 
    
    Yup...too many people want the fairy tales to come true.  Can't help
    wanting to shake some sense into 'em, now and then ;-).
                                                           
    > 4) People forget that prospective love interests are like busses; If you
    > miss one, just sit tight.  There'll be another one along in short while. 
    
    Well...I consider people to be unique.  Every missed bus, every missed
    interaction, may have been one that could have taught me something
    special.  So while I agree that there is little urgency (am I reading
    you correctly?) in finding a 'love interest' I do find significant
    values to be gained from many, many interactions with all that traffic!
    
    > 5)People are generally stupid, masochistic, idealistic, depressive or
    > all of the above.
    
    Not generally...but specifically.  Some of 'em.  Oh well.  Takes all
    kinds to make a world...all we can do is not be so dumb ourselves.
    
    Great note.
    
    DougO

    
    > 2) People lose sight of the fact that the "love" they believe they are
    > experiencing is probably nothing more than hormones gone rampant.

      I'd bet long term attachments are much more emotional than
      hormonal in nature. Mere lust can usually be overcome, emotional
      dependancy takes longer to get over. Certainly has in my case
      anyway.
    
                                                           
    > 4) People forget that prospective love interests are like busses; If you
    > miss one, just sit tight.  There'll be another one along in short while. 
    
      Some buses are a lot nicer than others.
          
    > 5)People are generally stupid, masochistic, idealistic, depressive or
    > all of the above.
    
      Hey come on now, I'm not stupid! liesl :*)

    
    
    from basenote --- "NOTHING, nothing, nothing in the world which
    i would trade for my own peace of mind."
    
    well, remind me never to call you selfless.  I'm really getting
    tired of this me, me, me stuff.  All anyone seems to think about
    is how they can make themselves happy, and that is the all-
    important, all encompassing goal....all that matters is their
    personal happiness....which of course leads to people being 
    perpetually engrossed in themselves.
    i get the feeling that everyone if approached by some Genie in
    a bottle and the Genie said, "i can make the whole world happy,
    but you would have to be miserable."  Everyone would say, 
    "no thanks, all that really matters is if I"M happy"
    
    

    RE. 8
    
    I think that you are jumping the gun a bit in calling Kris
    selfish for her statement that she values her peace of mind 
    as a number one priority.
    
    Just because she tries to cultivate a deep happiness for herself
    does not mean that she cannot be kind to others. As a matter of
    fact, I feel that people who do have their own peace of mind are
    more apt to be considerate to others because they know what they
    want and tend to play less games.
    
    Perhaps you were not trying to come across that way.
    
    jeff

    Re .8: Well, there's "selfless" and there's "doormat", and I think the
    distinction is an important one.
    
    If you _know_ that you are choosing a course that may well make life
    difficult for you, but if you believe that your reasons for doing this
    are sound and that the net results (to you, your family, world peace,
    whatever) will be worth it, then fine - be selfless. Strong-minded
    folks like that have done wonders for the world.
    
    BUT: I've known people who have spent their lives "living for others,"
    and who are utterly surprised to find that not only have they deprived
    themselves all those years, but often the recipients of their
    sacrifices either didn't want it in the first place, or were spoiled
    by it all and are now thoroughly miserable themselves.
    
    Would I accept being miserable if it would make the rest of the world
    happy? Assuming such a deal could be struck, I'd certainly consider it
    (though if I _chose_ to be the sacrifice, there would be limits as to how
    miserable I could get - it's quite possible to have peace of mind in
    the midst of severe deprivation).
    
    On the other hand, if I were told that I could be happy only if someone
    else had to choose that life of misery, I wouldn't take it. (There's a
    fascinating story on this theme by Ursula LeGuin, I think - "The Ones
    Who Walked Away from Omelas," if my memory serves.)
    
    -b

    
    re: .8
    
    Maybe my view only.  
    
    "... own piece of mind."  That is not as self centered as it may
    seem.  Could you be around some one who was not in balance with
    themselves, who do have "piece of mind"?  I think not, these are
    unhappy people.  The base note talks about a lot of things but in
    general it's clear (to me) that if you take s**t you likely to
    and some of your own to the total.
    
    A perspective:  In this file some things are collapsing (loves,
    bodies, or what ever) and new things are growing (babies, new jobs,
    people recovering from big tramas).  To me the the new things notes
    are something to live for as change is the only constant we have.
    Remove it and your waiting to die and don't know it yet.  So at
    times ya just gotta admit it's time to do something about it and
    get the show on the road.  The writer in .0 makes it clear, very
    clear accepting s**t is ok if thats what you want.  Crying about
    it and not doing something about it is junk.  Admitting that what
    ever "it" is that distresses you and doing something about it is
    progress toward piece of mind.

    I've used the word "it" frequently because I know of no other that
    is generic for whatever may pain, annoy, distress, or generally
    reduce your happiness beyond what you wish to accept.
    
    Sermon over, I hope it doesn't read that way though.
    john

I have a tendency to not pull punches sometimes.  The base note, as DougO
pointed out, is not directed at anyone, so if anyone got hit in the nose
while I was doing my literary flailing, it was strictly by accident.

re. .6

You read it right.  There is no urgency and therefore there should be no
desperation.  But even the most even-keeled, unshakable people I know seem to
intensify to the point of combustion when it comes to dealing with emotional
crap in a relationships. 

re. .5

I didn't say it would never happen to me, Jane.  I have had a share of sewer
wading in my short but eventful "love life".  But I've never plunged in over my
head and rarely have I gone in over my ankles (to flog a dead analogy). When
the games begin, the relationship ends. 

A woman telling me she loves me does not give her artistic license to
rearrange my mind nor does her granting of this love, real or imagined, take
my life anywhere near the point where I cannot live without it. The point is
that the words "I love you" should be granted and received in both respect and
reverence, not as an attempt to shackle someone else to the turmoils
and confusions of your own life.


re. .7

Liesl, your last line gave me the best smile I've had all week.


re. .8

    "To be or not to be?  That is the question.  Whether t'is nobler in the
    mind to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune or take arms
    against a sea of trouble and by opposing, end them." 

The question: Is it better to assert your existence and define the terms
of your own life or remain a passive victim of your own inaction?

In my mind, it is more noble to take arms against a sea of trouble.  I in
no way espoused selfishness in my note, however if you feel like you have
to suffer to be a good person, that's your problem.  

You're not doing penance in this life, that mode of thinking was reserved
for monks in the dark ages.  Go ahead and be a self-sacrificial martyr, .8,
but don't you dare pass a moral judgement on those who consider
self-sacrifice nothing more than misguided heroics.

re. .9

The "Kris" is short for Kristian which, according to my parents, is
Scandinavian for Christian.  My parents also claim they were sober when
they picked out my name.  It never occurred to them that it would mislead
people as to my gender.

Kris

    Kris,
    
    sorry 'bout referring to you as a 'her' in my reply .9
    
    you are the first 'dude' Kris that I've ever heard of though-
    must help make life interesting...
    
    Jeff 

    re: .0
    
    Just my opinion...
    
    
    I think there is lots of room for mistakes in a relationship.  People
    are not perfect and I know that my goal in life is to work out problems
    in a marriage.  When I got married, my husband and I vowed to stay
    together for better or for worse.  I think everyone gets hurt in
    relationships.  I don't think people should stick around for abuse
    though.  
    
    Well, what I'm trying to say here is, my goal in my marriage is
    to communicate.  I will leave space for mistakes... but not repeated
    mistakes.  I feel that too many people leave marriages for the wrong
    reasons.  Nobody seems to want to work out problems anymore.
    
    Enough said.
    
    Marriage/Relationships are such wonderful commitments, that need
    to be worked at all the time.
    
    TB

    
    re: .12
    
    well, Kris, i guess i miss read you, though i still don't see how
    the statement that nothing is more important to you than your 
    peace of mind can be taken as anything but a selfish statement.
    
    "to be or not to be" -- Yes, one of the things this means is the
    question of action versus inaction, but in the context of the 
    play the action contemplated is one of selfless commitment to
    others, and to choose inaction would be a selfish act.  
    To say that action is always the best course is rather shortsighted
    for each situation is different and to have the opinion that
    action is always best is rather self limiting.  You've already
    cut your options in half by discarding inaction.
    
    also, there is a difference between being selfless and being
    self-sacrificing.  
    
    And, no, my intial note was not a personal attack, but my opinions
    of a general attitude which seems mighty prevalent.  
    For all those out there who agree that their own peace of mind
    is most important, consider how many people share that view, only
    one person shares that view....yourself.  unless you've found
    someone who truly cares about you, but then that individual who
    cares for you would be selfless and we can't have that now 
    can we.
    
    as for moral judgements Kris, seems to me your last note was
    chalk full of 'em.  Maybe that's just the way i saw it, but
    anyway it didn't get me upset, so take my note as opinions
    and not me trying to hand down the law.
    
    

     Re: .15 by TOLKIN::DINAN

     >	  unless you've found someone who truly cares about you, but then
     >	  that individual who cares for you would be selfless and we can't
     >	  have that now can we.

	  Life is not a zero-sum game.

			       Brian Hetrick

    re. .15
    
>        And, no, my intial note was not a personal attack, but my opinions
>    of a general attitude which seems mighty prevalent.  

    As your note was not a personal attack, neither was my response.
    As your note was opions regarding a general attitude, so was my
    response.
    
    As you are weary of the "Me First" syndrome, I am fed up with the
    "Down with Me First" syndrome.
    
    I am of the mind that self enrichment, whatever form that enrichment
    may take, (monetary, spiritual, emotional, intellectual) is life's
    major goal.  I find that having someone mess around with my emotions
    to be unpleasant (call me stupid), and I do whatever it takes to
    remove the the source (call me selfish).  Are people who remove
    stones from their shoe selfish?  Those who walk through life in
    discomfort selfless?
    
    I do not understand, TOLKIN::DINAN, how someone can be upset by seeing
    another human being attempt to better him/herself by eliminating the
    cause of the suffering, be it emotional or physical.  Or how a persons
    pursuit of their own happiness can be considered a poor reflection on
    our society. 
    
    By the way, the pursuit of peace of mind is not necessarily an act of
    selfishness. Some find peace of mind through acts of charity or self
    sacrifice. Fine if you do.  But altruistic behaviour runs thin in
    humans and I, for one, wouldn't attempt to lay guilt on anyone for
    putting themselves first. 
    
    Kris

    
    re: .16
    
    How do you know Life is not a zero-sum game??
    
    not only do i not think life is not a zero-sum game, i don't even
    know what you mean by that.
    
    

    
    Again I find myself agreeing with those who feel that peace of mind
    is the most important thing for a person to have. If you don't love
    yourself and you love someone else how can you help but wonder why
    that sap loves such a wretch as yourself. On the other hand, if
    you love yourself then you feel that you deserve to be loved.
    
    Also, I don't feel as though it is fair for one person to rely on 
    another for their happiness. What happens if their feelings change? 
    What happens if, God forbid, they should pass away?
    
    It is important to establish the "greatest love of all" before 
    seeking "true love". This in fact, should make  relationships
    less volatile and make those in them feel more secure. 
    
    While most people are put off by totally self-centered people, 
    their is a problem of dependent people that exists as well.
    As usual the key is to find a proper, dynamic balance between the
    two extremes.
    
    Jeff

    re .13
    <first time i've heard of a dude named Kris>
    How about Kris Kringle, 
    How about Kris Kristofferson
    
    re .18 zero-sum game
    
    That is a term from probability/game theory that has gained prominence
    -i believe- in War Games
    
    Over simplified, a zero-sum game is a game where the losses = the
    gains. So, in poker at somebody's house with no ante "rake-off", you
    are playing a zero-sum game. The toal winnings taken home = the total
    losses take home.
    Perhpas misapplied to humans it sort of means for every winner there is a
    loser. Which is a sill concept.
    p.s.
    I kind of think the comment "life is not a zero-sum game" was
    tongue-in-cheek

	 Ah........Kris strikes again....  Great note.....sometimes I
	 wonder if you aren't reading my mind.


	 I firmly believe that you can not love someone else until you
	 learn to love yourself.  To want the best for someone else is
	 great, but you have to want the best for yourself, too, or
	 the happiness will never be "true happiness."

	 Looking out for your own peace of mind first, is to me the
	 ultimate gift you can give another.....


	 /kath

re .0

I agree!  I had to learn what you said the "hard way" but after I learned
to love myself - it all seemed so easy.....

/Coll

    Great note!!!
    
    But, what do you do about people who perceive you as weak because
    you enjoy being a giver.  Even though you love yourself first, and
    like the type of person you are, a part of that is seeing someone
    else happy because of something you've done.
    
    NG

    re: .23
    
    � But, what do you do about people who perceive you as weak because
    � you enjoy being a giver.
    
    Offhand I'd say leave them to their perceptions.
    
    Steve

    
    RE: .23
    
    It occurs to me that we only "care" about the opinions of those
    that we feel we "need" or "want" to have like or love us.
    
    I [only personally] try not to have any names in the first list.
    It implies to me that I am not a good person unless they approve;
    and I refuse [try to anyway] to let anyone have that kind of power
    over me. And, for those on that [imaginary] list, I agree with Steve
    altogether...leave 'em to it.
    
    The second list is a toughy...sometimes we "want" folks who just
    don't agree with us to like/love us. I think that's when you have
    to sit down and talk about differences to help them see the real
    you vs their perceptions. It takes a good deal of effort for folks
    who live their lives by different lights to see and value the folks
    who don't. Usually it is worth the effort...sometimes it just
    hurts.
    
    Melinda

    Yes...People in general are so much better than the type you've dealt
    with.... I am sorry for you.  Your words show you're hurt.

    Re: .15
    
    >though i still don't see how the statement that nothing is more 
    >important to you than your peace of mind can be taken as anything but 
    >a selfish statement.
    
    I'm unabashedly selfish and nothing is more important to me than my
    peace of mind.  Does that mean I can never be selfless?  No.  I can be
    selfless as long as it doesn't mess up my peace of mind.  I can be
    quite generous with things that don't matter a lot to me (like money)
    and very selfish with things that do matter to me (time, energy,
    concentration).

    Re: .0
    
    >Why do people put up with far more shit from someone who claims to
    >love them than they do from those who don't?
    
    Perhaps because you usually get a lot more good things from someone who
    claims to love than from someone who doesn't claim to love you.  You
    get some bad stuff, but you probably also get some good stuff.  When
    the good doesn't compensate for the bad, it's time to examine the
    alternatives.
    
    >1) People are so deathly afraid of being alone that they are willing
    >to mangle their own psyches into a twisted wreckage and cling to the
    >smoke of forgotten promises rather than be flung into the "abyss" of
    >singlehood.
    
    I find that some people can't get the idea that I like being alone. 
    (Sometimes I feel like being around people, but usually I'm very happy
    on my own with an environment I control.)  There seems to be an
    automatic assumption that alone is bad.
    
    >4) People forget that prospective love interests are like busses; If
    >you miss one, just sit tight.  There'll be another one along in short 
    >while.
    
    With the millions of people in this country alone, I'd feel slightly
    silly saying that there's only one person in the world out there for
    me.  There are thousands of people, at the very least, that I could be
    friends with.  Just think -- what if you had gone to a different
    school?  What if your folks had moved to some different place?  Would
    you have no friends, no relationships?  Of course not.
    
    >5)People are generally stupid, masochistic, idealistic, depressive or
    >all of the above.
    
    Sometimes I'm tempted to agree.  However, I think a lot of times we
    just fall into ruts.

    Re:0  (basenote)
    
    Question: Is the basenote a possible extraction/abstraction of/from 
    the Marquis de Sade's School of Philosophy ?
    
    What about ? 
    OPINION:: Most of our fears are relics from unpleasant childhood 
    experiences, standing in the way of our ability to live freely and just
    waiting to be discarded. 
       We take the STING out of FEAR when we look at its **limitations**
    and **refuse** to be its victims.  When we overcome fear, our
    self-image is increased tremendously because we open ourselves to
    re-growth. We also become better bearers of new possibilities.
    Banishing old fears, we let the sunshine IN.
    Then again:  "When looking for kindness become kind FIRST....etc.."
     
    `ari
    

    Nothing is more valuable than one's own peace of mind--for if you
    do not have that, then you have nothing to give anyone else.  If
    you are not happy, how can you expect those around you to be?
    
    kim

    
    another vote for "nothing more valuable than one's own peace of
    mind"