Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    Re: .0
    
    >Should I not worry about his feelings?
    
    He doesn't seem terribly concerned about yours.  Worry about his
    feelings if you want, but worry about yours more.
    
    >Should I stay here or move home?  Should I try again to get him to
    >talk about all this? Or just let it be?  Should I complete the break?
    >Or let things continue as is?  It has been over a month now since this 
    >situation began, how long should I take to recover myself?  
    
    What do you want to do?  It sounds like you're very unhappy with the
    way things are; are you willing to continue in this state?  Is your
    relationship currently rewarding enough that you want to continue it
    despite the costs?  Will you be satisfied with a man who loves someone
    more than you and who loves you less than you love him?  Can you cope
    with the fact that he breaks promises?  You don't want to be alone but
    you aren't happy right now; you're in the position of choosing the
    lesser of two evils.
    
    Me, I'd chew him out and ditch him.  But I'm not at all forgiving and
    I'm quite happy without a relationship, so don't go by my example.

    I agree with Chelsea to some extent.  The big question is, "What
    do YOU want for YOU?"  It seems to me that right now you're simply
    reacting to what he's doing and what he says HE wants.  What do
    YOU want?
    
    I've been in this situation before.  I've been asked this question
    before.  At the time my answer was "I don't know."  I honestly couldn't
    separate my wants from his.   It's difficult to reclaim your self
    when you've given so much of it away - but it's not impossible.
    Take it from one who knows.
    
    Feel free to send mail if you'd like.
    
    Nanci

    He has your letter which expresses your feelings and thoughts about
    your relationship. I can't think of a whole lot more that you can
    do given that he is unwilling to respond to you on those matters.
    
    I have been through a similar situation. The best advice I can give
    is to give him the chance to realize what he is missing in life
    without you. Don't give him the chance to be wishy-washy.
    
    You can love life on your own. Sure it's gonna hurt for a while.
    And who knows for how long. That's when the rest of us loving souls
    say 'Join the club'- we have been through it too. We are here to
    help you any time you need us. If you need to call late at night
    because it hurts the most then, send mail to us we'll arrange
    something. If you'd like poems and stories that have helped us along,
    they're yours for the asking.
    
    Most of all, be honest with yourself. Even if he were to ask to
    come back to you could you sincerely *trust* him? You don't want
    to get into the relationship and send it spiralling downwards getting
    revenge. If you can forgive him, then give him some space and time.
    If you can't forgive him (I know I would not, but that's me), go
    out and in time you will meet others and it will hurt less then.
    Either way *I* couldn't deal with being around the other person
    for a while. And I would count on my friends to help me through
    the tough times. Violence is a cop-out. You should channel your bad
    feelings into positive things (working out at a gym, and other things
    to develop yourself). He is the jerk, not you. Don't take it out
    on yourself. Perhaps, it is good that this happenned now, before you went
    even further with this guy.
    
    It's hard at first because (if you're anything like me) you start
    doing things out of spite and the bad feelings motivate your behavior
    and permeate your thoughts and activities. But after a while you
    either meet someone who takes you out of the fog, or you realize
    that you can enjoy life on your own. I put up a sign on my wall
    for a week - what did she give me that I could find in another woman?
    My ultimate response was- 'I won't know unless I try'. I ended up
    going my own way, and then seeing other people. After the first
    few futile attempts at dating, things became quite refreshing.
    
    Above all, stay positive about yourself- it's his problem that he's
    a screw-up. Of course on all matters you have to make your own decision
    based on your own reasons and feelings, but if I can be of any help
    at all please drop me a note.
    
    Yer pal,
    
    Jeff
    

.0

It doesn't seem like you have a clear idea of what it is *you* want. Determining
that should be your first priority.

Sad to say, many times there are discrepancies between what we say and do. Keep
that in mind when you try to what you want and the probability that you will get
what you want in this relationship. 

It sounds to me like you are very insecure and need security very badly. There
is nothing wrong with that in itself; it's simply what your needs are.  However,
it doesn't seem like you are likely to get the security you want in a
non-monogamous relationship.  Ask yourself what you are doing in this
relationship. 

Do you live together?  If so life is likely to be difficult.  If it is too much
trouble, move out.  Should you move back to your parents?  I don't think so.
There is a lot more at stake there then just your SO.  You have a chance for
independance, and you are just as likely to meet M. Right here as there.

What should you do?  Be yourself.  Do what you want to do.  Take the time to
find out what that is, and seperate what you want from your SO and your
involvement with your SO. 

Jim.

    I think that it is important for you to realize that your feelings of
    violence are, unfortunately, a natural reaction and not indicators that
    you are "losing it."  They come from the level of incomprehensible hurt
    that you are experiencing and reflect the depth of love that you
    held/hold for him.  Do keep it under control, though, and trust yourself
    to continue being yourself and not act of those feelings.  In your
    quiet moments of "dead reckoning" when you are wrapped up in nothing
    but anguish, do trust your own values and beliefs that have guided
    your life.  This is just one of those times when you are standing
    alone.  You must be yourself and hold true to your own integrity.
    He was just a wrong turn, something that looked good, and was good,
    but isn't any longer.  You're back on your own now.  That's
    unassailable.  You are still yourself.  You've just been kicked
    around a bit.
    
    I would say leave him behind emotionally.  My marriage started along
    lines like you've described and there were other occurences along the
    way.  But, I kept loving her.  A divorce happened eventually. She
    finally realized the strength to say that she wasn't happy. There was
    someone else in her life.  After six years of marriage and many times
    of convincing myself that things were getting better, it ended.  I had
    big time feelings of violence and hurt.  I wouldn't say that I stronger
    as a consequence, but I probably am.  I still very strongly believe in
    love and monogamy and trust.  It's just that the other person has
    to feel those same feelings about you as you do about him.
    
    His actions seem to show that he doesn't hold the same kind of love for
    you, or at least the same strength of love, as you do for him. It's a
    mismatch, and you'll be the one to get hurt again later.  Write him off
    as much as you can.  If he really loves you, he'll try to fix up what
    he's blown.  If not, then you've prevented another reoccurence of the
    same thing further down the line and started on the tract of
    re-establishing your own identity as an individual capable of a love
    that will last, not tainted by doubt and threatening recollections. 
    
    Family an/or friends will be good to have around.  They give you the
    sense that you are still loved and valued in spite of the pain.  You
    were yourself before you met this person and now you have returned to
    being your self.  Don't be a moth that circles the same lamppost
    even though it keeps getting burned.  Fly away and follow the real
    moon, you'll discover another moth of your own kind and emotional
    makeup.
    
    Good luck.

    

    Hi--
    
    First let me say that you are not alone!  As someone else kindly said,
    many of us have been through this before.  Please feel free to sound
    off in here!
    
    I went through a relationship very similar to the one you are
    describing.   Although the situation wasn't exactly like yours,
    I experienced a lot of pain and anguish;  especially of the "NOW what
    do I do?" type.  Finally I just got sick of feeling bad all the time,
    and not knowing what he was going to do, or whether he would even show
    up.  I guess I just got tired.  For your own health, don't let it go 
    that far.  I too received mixed messages, and they are *very*
    confusing.  You even went as far as to give him a list of issues to
    read at his convenience!  It's his move now.  Can you afford to move
    out and get on your own for a while?  Or do you have friends in the
    area that you can camp out with for now?
    
    As far as moving back home goes, be careful.  We always want to fly
    back to the familiar when we are hurting.  There is nothing wrong with
    taking a trip back to be with those you love for their support and
    understanding.  But if you go while you are so hurt you are liable to 
    present such a black picture to them that they will convince you never
    to go back.  
    
    This is one of those hard things in life that only you can decide on.
    Get away by yourself for a while if you can, and do some serious
    thinking and praying.  And don't forget to use us as a sounding board
    whenever you like.  I wish you well in your decision, and pray that the
    best possible happens.
    
    Good luck,
    
    Jane
    

    Dump him.  He's using your feelings in a way -- I think he's
    hanging on to you in case the "true love" ends up dumping him
    (after all, she's 4 hours away by plane).
    
    My last relationship was the most emotional thing I ever went
    through.  When my SO (who I lived with for a year) got terminally
    ill and went home (he was separated from him wife of 9 years)
    I thought I would die.  Guess what?  I didn't.  I thought about
    moving home too, back to MA.  I love the weather down here in
    VA, no way was I moving back to freezing cold, as much as I miss
    friends and family.  I have tons of friends and family down here
    too.  
    
    I weighed everything out.  I love my job, and my way of life down
    here.  Do you like your job now?  Why do you have to move back just
    because of an insensitive jerk?  I never thought I would be able
    to fall in love again.  It took me 6 months to start dating -- every
    time I went out on a date when the poor guy tried to kiss me I'd
    cry like crazy (thank god for understanding men!) and now, I've
    gotten over it and these days are the best days of my life.  I'm
    starting to fall in love, and life has never been better.
    
    Your feelings of wanting revenge are natural.  Don't stoop to his
    level.  Act like the woman with class that you are!  He'll feel
    like dirt because you handled it in a mature way.  I'm sure once
    you've gone, if the "true love" dumps him, he'll be right back on
    your doorstep -- and you'll be having the time of your life -- you
    won't need him anymore!
    
    Forget this person.  Get active, do more with your friends and immerse
    yourself in things that will help you not think about him.  It's
    natural to think about the "good times" at the beginning of a break-up,
    but believe me, when you look back, I'm sure the bad times will
    outweigh the good times.  
    
    Good luck.  There's a lot more things I could write, but if you'd
    like to mail me, by all means, do it!  You need support in this
    difficult time!
    
    Tammi
    

    
    I'm on Tammi's side.  You should try to maintain your self respect
    during a time like this.  Pretend that your strong even if you aren't
    feeling such.  Don't see him at all even though it may break your
    heart.  
    
    You need a time away period until you are healed.  Then maybe you
    can come back and be friends again.
    
    I (as well as many other have said) have been through this as well.
    I was so lonely and afraid of being alone.  I started going out
    constantly with girlfriends, gentlemen I had met, groups, coworkers,
    I got a second job and met even more people.  I burnt myself out.
    Then I took sometime to relax and I appreciated my time alone and
    the chance to decide who I felt like going out with.
    
    Remember the saying,"I you love something set it free
                         if it comes back its yours
                         if it doesn't it never was."
    
    give him sometime to be away from you too.  He might realize that
    he was just confused.  If not.  Accept it and go on.
    
    Be strong.
    
    Katrina

    Re: .8
    
    Well said, Katrina!
    
    Also, you will be surprised that once people realize you are available
    to go out, all kinds of offers will start pouring in, male and female.
     Just hang tough.  It is better to have absolutely NO contact with
    your SO once you move out (I'm assuming you live together).  I suggest
    you find a roommate (which will help your social situation, because
    roommates are good people to go out and meet people with).  Or else
    do like I did, I moved in with my sister and her husband.  But that
    was my choice, my closest friend and her husband also offered to
    take me in until I found a roommate too!  I'm sure that given a
    little time, all sorts of nice things will happen to you.  I felt
    I had hit "rock bottom", emotionally, financially, and physically
    (I had gained 10 pounds while helping my SO battle brain cancer
    -- living on a couch-bed in the hospital is not conducive to keeping
    one's figure!).  But everything turned around, and I thought it
    never would!
    
    Be strong and don't give in.  Men (and women, too, I guess I shouldn't
    generalize) have a way of getting into your heart and not wanting
    to let go, for their own selfish reasons.  I have a feeling that
    your SO isn't sticking around for your love, only for security you
    would bring if this current "love" doesn't work out.  Don't bother!
     I know it hurts hearing this, but you have to keep telling yourself
    that this is for the best and you CAN and WILL live without him
    -- and do much better, thank you!
    
    Tammi
    

RE: .7

>	-< Insensitive, Immature Jerk .... >-
>	...
>	Dump him. He's using your feelings ...
>	...
>	just because of an insensitive jerk

Tammi,

I have no problem with the advice you offer, even though I think the
base noter should listen to everybody, then go out and do precisely
what SHE wants. 

I do take an issue with the way you refer to the man. Didn't take
you long to make him the villain of the piece. All you know about
the guy is what you read in a short note. As far as I recall, even
the base noter (who presumably knows him better) doesn't sound as
vindictive as you - and **she** can't be very objective about this, 
either.

Take it easy. And don't judge anyone, until you've had the chance
to fill their shoes for a while. 

-- Ron 

    Ron:
    
    OOPS!  Didn't mean to sound vindictive.  Because I'm not.  But having
    been in the situation, I know the "type" and hate to see anyone
    used or abused.  My friends and family were VERY strong about their
    opinions and what I should do.  I based my judgment not only on
    what I felt inside (at that time, I was so ambivalent, making up
    excuses for the behaviors, etc) but on the strength of others' past
    experiences.  It turned out that their vehemence wasn't unfounded.
     I didn't follow my heart and guess what?  For the first time in
    my life, things worked out for the best!
    
    Sorry if anyone here got offended!
    
    Tammi
    

    I disagree that there are any "mixed messages" here.  The messages
    are really very clear:
    
    He: "I want to have you both and won't decide between you.  I'm
    willing to say 'sweet nothings' or do whatever to get what I want.
    Why should I change when I can have it all?"
    
    She (at least so far): "I'm going to put up with sharing you and
    your shabby treatment of me and the horrible way it all makes me
    feel."                                     
    
    One final thought, the only person we can change is ourselves, and
    only when we want to.
    
    SE
    

    
    Oh yea, once I started deciding that I had to be strong for myself,
    that I was a desirable genuine person I lost the the 30 pounds I
    had gained in my relationship with the SO that I was with plus another
    16 pounds.
    
    Everything starts from within side.  Although you may be hurting
    and wanting to reach out to him so badly sometimes the best thing
    to do is GET ANGRY.  Start saying things to yourself like," He has
    some nerve!  I don't need to share him.  There are plenty of other
    men that would die to take me out!"  Get cocky.  Be balsy.  Even
    if its not you.  Play act.  You'll start to believe it after a while  
    then you will become it.  You will wake up and find yourself a strong,
    independent, self reliant woman that doesn't need a man to fulfill
    your life.  Then you can wait for the right nice guy to come along.
    Certain attitudes attract certain attitudes.  You can rule your
    destiny.
    
    write to me and I'll tell you about positive affirmations.
    
    Katrina

   I apologize up front for the length of this message but when I read .0 it
really struck home for me. .0 is in a VERY PAINFUL situation that I can
identify with because I am going through a similar experience right now
and felt like sharing my pain with .0. Also I think entering this reply
will help me deal with my own situation. I have not talked to very many
people about this. I am not looking for advice, although it is welcome...
as well as your support. One disclaimer - I used a number of quotes from
conversations that I had. I can not be sure that they are EXACT only that
they are the best that I can remember them.


   Dear .0,

    I have a real good idea how you are feeling right now. I am also going
through a lot of pain right now over a relationship. I separated from my wife
2 years ago (we are now divorced). Right at the time that was going on I met
a wonderful woman, fell very deeply in love with her and she with me. This
was much more then "true love", I can not begin to describe it. I thought I
knew what love was before but I never experienced anything like this. It was
incredible, unbelievable, I just could not get over how much love I had
for this woman - NOTHING ever came close to this feeling and she said exactly
the same about me. I have *NEVER* felt anything so powerful in my life!!!
Everything was wonderful for 6-8 months. I had fallen so hard that I was
obsessed with her for a while - I just could not *stand* the thought of not
being with her. I would go into her condo and leave her flowers, and notes
to surprise her when she got home.... all kinds of things. Looking back I
admit it was overkill but I had come out of a dead..... I mean REALLY
emotionally (and physically) dead marriage of 13 years. It was like I was
trying to catch up for 13 years of what I missed. I did get over that phase 
and things settled down to a more "normal" state.

    Unfortunately I never had the time to drop the baggage from my marriage and
a lot of my past. I loved her very, very much yet I found myself putting
'distance between us'. I couldn't explain it. I *wanted* to be with her and
at the same time, I needed some space.... time to myself. I didn't understand
it.... and neither did she. She even thought I was seeing another woman and,
although my behavior could be an indication of that, nothing could have
been further from the truth! I do not do things like that. Period! I needed
time to myself.... that's all I knew but didn't know why! It was VERY
frustrating for both of us. I really, really loved her so very much and yet I
KNEW that I wasn't acting that way... I needed more and more space. I started
to go with her to see her therapist as a couple to try to work out what was
going on. Unfortunately when I was asked how I felt about something, much of the
time all I could say "I don't know!.... I just don't know!" It was VERY
frustrating. I wanted to know how I felt but I didn't! It was very frustrating
for her too. Also during this time I was making very slow progress on the
divorce papers. I KNEW I was going through with it but there were times when
she worried about my wife and I getting back together again. NO WAY! I could
not explain why I was taking my time... for some reason there didn't seem to be
any rush. 

      After almost 1-1/2 years and it was to the point we were seeing each
other as little as 1/2 day over the weekend she very reluctantly broke up with
me. I was DEVASTATED, completely crushed! I cried my eyes out. I wanted to be
with her SO BADLY, and yet I knew I needed time to myself to figure out what
was going on. I knew it was me, not her. We agreed to remain friends and
completely free to date other people. By choice, I did not date. I needed to
work on *me*. We did see each other several times, sent cards to each other on
holidays. kept in touch via VAXmail (we both work for DEC) and by phone.
Sometimes several times a week, and once, at her request, I didn't contact her
for a little over a month. 

   We had lunch together back in Feb of this year at which time she told me
she had just met a guy and had been out on a date or two with him. Boy did that
hurt me! She gave me a card that said in part (if my memory serves me well)
"I don't know what I'm doing. I know that I think of you very often and wanted
to remember you on Valentine's day." I still loved her very, deeply and I had
been telling her that right along, also, that I missed her. She asked me to
promise not to tell her those things. I was confusing to her to hear that and
yet, I wasn't dating her. We hugged and kissed each other and went our
separate ways but kept in touch. She had said something that lead me to
believe that the relationship she had just started probably wouldn't last.
I have no idea what it was but I got that impression.

    Then I had a short lived relationship. Actually I prefer to call it a
friendship. We talked about how people related to each other, family
structures, codependency...etc...etc. It didn't last very long and I guess
we both kind of realized that "It was nice but it just wasn't going to be."
We are still friends although we only see/talk_to each other if we happen to
bump into each other (VERY infrequently because we are at different plants).
But as a result of her, I pick up the keys that I needed to unlock a lot
of my past and drop a lot of the baggage I sensed was there from my marriage
but couldn't get a grasp on. I spent the next 2 months REALLY digging into
"what happend to me?" and "How did I get to where I am today?" A lot of
things fell into place. Bag after bag of baggage got dropped. The divorce
came through and I then I knew.... I was ready for a full time, committed
relationship. Then it hit me. What I wanted was a full time relationship
with my original girlfriend!

   I called her and asked her to have lunch with me about a month ago. I sensed
that she would have liked that but she told me she didn't think that would be
a good idea because she was dating someone now (the same one she mentioned back
in Feb). What a blow! Of course she had every right to be dating - that was
made very clear back when we split up but it was still very depressing to hear
that. I don't recall much else from the conversation. I was pretty crushed but
I tried not to let it show. Then I sent her a note saying that I wanted to date
her again and explaining that I worked out a lot of the things from my past. I
could explain why I pulled away from her and a lot of other things that "went
wrong". A number of my basic views of life had changed and these new views fell
directly in line with hers. I knew if we started dating again it would be even
BETTER than before. Yes, BETTER!! I knew it! She said that she would think
about it and let me know but admitted that she was worried about being hurt
again by my falling into past behavior patterns. I realized that she had a
valid point. That many people claim to have changed when, in fact, they had
not. But I KNEW that I had. NO QUESTION. I really made some significant
changes. I think she sensed that I was telling the truth. Our relationship
was always based on HONESTY and believe me, sometimes the truth hurt! We
have some VERY difficult discussions about the relationship, feelings, anything
and everything. We were ALWAYS honest with each other no mater what the
cost.

    After that point I started going off the deep end. I started to get
obsessive just like at the start of the relationship. All I could think
about was her and how wonderful it would be to be back together again.
After a few days I was going nuts and decided that I couldn't take not
hearing a decision from her any more. So I told her that I had to let her go
and seriously think about dating other women. That the situation was unhealthy
for everyone concerned and it would be best if I just bowed out. I was being
very open and honest about my feelings. There was tremendous PAIN in writing
that note! It really killed me to send it! I was in tears as I hit the return
key. I was on the phone to her when I sent it. Unfortunately the message came
across as an ultimatum. The thought that it would come across that way never
even crossed my mind. I would NEVER do that to her!! How could she think that?
But as soon as she said it, I thought "Oh my God. It would sound like an
ultimatum wouldn't it?... RATS!" I felt like a total fool... a real jerk!
I think that managed to explain that was NOT the intent. To have meant it as
an ultimatum would have been a codependednt behavior. Something that I was
being VERY CAREFUL to avoid! Those were MY feelings, MY emotions, no act,
no mixed messages and I got trampled upon for it! I couldn't fight her
logic. All I could think was "She's right, it DOES sound like that.... But
that's NOT what I meant!!!!". By the end of the conversation I really felt
like the fool but stood by what I said except that I said "OK, let me
tone it down a bit. The door is still open. I would like to establish
a relationship with you." She said she would consider it.

   I called her last Wed (6/28). It was just a "generic" phone call to
say "hi, How are you?" etc. I sensed a rather cool tone of voice at the other
end of the line (I don't know for sure but I think she was rather upset
with me).

  Over the 4th of July weekend I was going berserk. I *HAD* to tell her some
things. I just *HAD* to... no matter what. I tried calling Monday afternoon
and later on Monday night. I knew her boyfriend might be with her but that
didn't matter to me. I decided to type her a note, drive to her place and
leave it on her car (if it was there). By the time I finished and got to
her place it was 2:30 AM, July 4th. Her car was there! I fastened the note
to her car and ran my fingers along the roof and trunk. It felt so good
just to *touch* something that belonged to her. I though about what I was
doing and thought "I must really be loosing it!.... Am I crazy or what?"
I looked up at her windows and whispered "I love you!" hoping that somehow
she would hear me in her sleep.

    In the note I had asked her to call me ASAP so I knew that she got the note.
By 10:00 AM I was going nuts again so I tried calling her. She was home. It was
Sooooooo nice to hear her voice again! I told her about the note and some of
the things that I had said. I could hear she was cooking breakfast and she
didn't sound very thrilled to get a call from me. I realized then that her
boyfriend was there. I suspected that he was but I was so tough to take when
it was basically confirmed. I was crushed again to know that *HE* was with the
woman I love and was in bed with her when I had left the note. Major, major
depression. I said I would call her on Wed (7/5) and hung up.

   That night (July 4th) I went into Boston and at the subway met a woman. All
I can say was it was the most intimate 45 minute relationship I have ever had.
I told her the above story and she shared some of her past pain with me. I
couldn't believe this chance meeting was taking place. It was EXACTLY what I
needed at EXACTLY the right time. How could this happen? I could only think of
one reason. Grace. We were really sharing some very deep feelings and emotions
with each other. She would put her hand on my shoulder at various times or
touch my hand, pat my knee.... all in a very loving and caring way. In the
early course of the conversation I found out she was happily married for 6
years and was going to meet her husband at the Hatch shell. But I was so struck
by the fact that this woman, a total stranger to me, happily married, with
kids, absolutely no intentions of "starting anything" with me would reach out in
such a loving manor. We got off the train and she told me where her car was
parked and said "we would be glad to drive you back to your car if you don't
want to take the train." A generous offer but I declined. I planed to cut out
just before the fireworks were over to "beat the crowd". When it came time to
part ways I asked her (Karen) what advice would she give me? She said "Just be
there for her. Be her Rock.". It made sense. I asked her "Karen.... can I give
you a hug?" "Of course you can." We hugged each other very hard for about 15
seconds. Two people who didn't know each other at all just 45 minutes ago
hugging like long lost friends in front of thousands of people. I felt so nice
to be hugged and to hug some one (it's been a while since I've had the
pleasure). Nothing sensual, just an honest, I really care about you type hug. I
really felt a lot of love at that point. We went our separate ways. I will
never see her again. Karen,  I just want to say "thanks" and, in my own way, I
love you....wherever you are. 

    I called my ex-girfriend the next morning at work (7/5) and we talked for
a total of 1-1/2 hours. I Kept thinking "Just be there for her. Be her rock."
She told me that she was happy with her present situation and that she wasn't
going to break up a relationship to go back to an old one. Sadly, I think I
already knew the answer before she told me. I had caused a lot of problems with
her boyfriend because of my call the day before. I suspected that I might have
and, again, I felt like the fool - a real jerk. I did not want to cause her
that pain! I *do* want her to be happy above anything else and I told her
that. She had NEVER remained friends with any of her ex-boyfriends when the
relationship was over... that was it... good bye Charlie! I was the exception.
She wanted to be friends with me... she really did. I told her that I love
her and care about her.... as a friend and that being her friend meant the
world to me. She "I feel the same way! I want that too!" But she still had
a lot of hurt from our relationship to work through and she said she was
angry with me for the problems that I caused her especially with her boyfriend
because it caused a major glitch in the "trust factor". After the phone call
she had to tell him what it was about because he was sitting right there.
In spite of the difficult subject matter it was a very loving, caring, open and
honest conversation. We were really reaching out to each other, a lot of
understanding for the other person's point of view. I talked to her about
the changes I made in my thinking and some of the changes I was still
going through and commented that "I think I turned out to be almost exactly
the kind of guy you are looking for...that's why I wanted us to try and
get back together again." She said "It sounds like you probably have."
Her main point was "All I know is how I feel today and today I am happy
with the relationship I am in. It may not be the right decision. I don't
know how I will feel tomorrow or next week. I could change my mind. But
today, right now that is how I feel." She pointed out my "tunnel vision" and my
"panic" to get her back. She couldn't understand what the rush was. I don't
know either except that I knew that I loved her very much, I wanted her back
very badly and I was in a lot of pain because she was seeing someone else. It
was driving me nuts... I admit it and I was being a little crazy. I could have
waited to send her the note at work the next day.... but NO... I had to drive
to her place and tie it to her car... then phone her... cause her and her
boyfriend a LOT of pain.... I didn't want to do that to her.... really I
didn't! I was just too blind to see what I was really doing to her. Because of
the hurt feelings and anger that she had with me we agreed that I would not
contact her in any way shape or form. She would contact me after she got over
the hurt and the anger she had for me. She said she didn't want to feel that
way about me and that it would take time to get over it. I like talking to her
very much - It may sound nuts but I even was enjoying THIS conversation with
her. I felt bad about being "cut off" from her like that but I understand the
reasons behind it. Now I can only sit, and wait, and wonder when she might
call. Could be weeks.... or months!! That hurts so bad! Her birthday is later
this month and I asked if I could send her a card. Her reply was "I wish you
wouldn't... not this year. I know you will be thinking of me and it is nice to
know that you will be doing that." (or something to that effect). That hurts
too. I want so much to send her a card. I had already bought it! By the end of
the call I realized that, yes, she DOES like me a lot. She would have to to
still want to be friends after the pain I had put her through in the
relationship and over the past few weeks. If she didn't .... she wouldn't be
talking to me at all. She told me that I would have no problems at all
attracting other women, that I was very attractive, had many good points about
me and that I have a lot to offer... Don't sit around the house... get out
there! I thanked her for the complements and her advice... It does makes sense.

   I was happy that a decision was made. At least the cards were on the table
but I was in SERIOUS PAIN. I just didn't know what to do. Sure I know that
life would go on but the thought of not being in a relationship with her
was depressing me something awful! I didn't have breakfast that morning.
I skipped lunch. That evening I talked to housemate about it and he said that
I have been pretty obsessed with her. He kept telling me "You have to close
that chapter in your life and move on. It's over. You had something great
and you lost it - admit it and move on. Feeling like this doesn't do you
any good and it doesn't do her any good." I knew he was right. In fact I
knew that was the answer before I even started talking to him. I told him
"I know that's what I have to do.... I know it.... but I can't do it... I
just can't let go!" We talked about love, how I felt about her and how much
she meant to me.... I just can't let her go.... I know we will be friends and
I am VERY happy that I will be talking to her again some day. She had every
right to just say "I never want to hear from you again."... and that has
been her history with past boyfriends. We went 'round and 'round, same
advice over and over and over... I knew that is what I had to do and I just
needed to keep hearing it. The PAIN was unbelievable.... I can't let her
go... I can't!.... You can... you have to! He went downstairs and came back
with a Bible and read to me....

   "And now I shall show you the most excellent way.

    If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am
only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy
and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that
can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess
to the poor and surrender my body to the flames but have not love, I gain
nothing.

   Love is patient, Love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is
not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered,
it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with
the truth. It always protects, always hopes, always preservers.

   Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where
there are tongues they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass
away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when perfection
comes the imperfect disappears......"

   Slowly I began to realize that to give her up does not mean that I have
to stop loving her in any way, shape or form. I can love her every bit as
much as when we were dating. I also realized that although I do love her
very, very much, I was being very selfish in my attempts to get her back.
That was wrong of me. I wanted her back for all the right reasons but I
went about it in all the wrong ways. On the phone with me that morning she
was all of those things that love is. I realized that not only did she still
like me but, I'd venture to say, she loves me too. She REALLY does care about
me! She is a very nice person but she wasn't "just being nice to me" She was
loving me in that phone call... Love is patient, love is kind, it is not
rude, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love rejoices
with the truth... Always trusts, always hopes, always preservers.... She
was all of these things. She is love herself. She is one incredible woman.
I always knew that...... and now I loved her even more!

   I am working on my pain. It is not easy. She means so much to me and I
can't help but hope that, maybe, someday, we will be together again. As long
as we are friends there is hope. I know I have to work through this. I
know that I have to "let go". It is comforting to know that I can let go
of her and love her at the same time. As one of the earlier replys said...

      "If you love something, set it free.
       If it comes back, it is yours.
       If it doesn't, it never was."

   I love her. I am working on setting her free. and I can only hope that if
love does perseveres and love never fails, then it (she) will come back to me.
I know that I need to move on with my life. It won't be easy. It will take one
hell of a woman to measure up to her. I had something great and I lost it!
I have been though a lot of pain with this. But with pain there is growth.
I wish her good things.... only good things. I wish her no harm and I am so
sorry that I have hurt her. I am very lucky that she still wants me as a
friend... but that will take time for her. I will miss her very much. I love
her very much.

   I haven't been to a church service in probably 16 years. My ex-girlfriend
started to go while I was dating her and started to say prayers each night
before she went to bed. I never went with her and didn't say prayers. I may
just decide to go to attend church again. Even though we went our separate ways
7 months ago I am still learning things from her. I am proud to have such a
person that I can call "friend". 

   So, .0 I do understand the pain you must feel and believe me, my heart does
go out to you. I can only suggest that violence will get you nowhere. It is
OK to love him even if you date someone else. You can love more than one
person. I love Karen - and I will never see her again. I think it boils
down to devotion and loyalty. You can love many many people all at the same
time - people that would would drop what you are doing to help them out
no matter what. But there is one person that will not only have your love
but will also have you devotion and your loyalty. If there is a conflict,
that person comes first. Your relationship shows a lack of honesty and trust.
Don't stoop to his level. Be honest at any cost and try to trust. Set a good
example for yourself and others. Love him if you want. That is OK. Remember
what love is. I think it is hard to improve on the description in the Bible.
It doesn't say anything about how you have to treat someone else. It just
describes what love is. The most important person you can love is yourself.
If you can't love yourself how can you love others?

     My ex-girlfriend said she hated to say "no" to me because that would seem
cruel, and hurt me. Well, It did hurt me! It hurt me a lot but she was honest.
And as a result, I respect and love her that much more. I just hope that when
I am ready to date again I can find someone that honest. If I do, I won't loose
her like I did the first one. And if I should be so lucky to get my ex back,
I will NEVER let her go!
       =====
   I feel better having shared this story (sorry it was so long!) Writing
about it helps ease the pain. I hope that .0 (and others) will get some
benefit from it.

    	
    				*	*	*
    
    	The following has been posted anonymously for the author of
    792.0. If you prefer to share your thoughts via VAXmail, I would
    be glad to forward them.
    
    				*	*	*
    
    Dear folks,

I am grateful for all responses to my initial note.  My friend and I 
have discussed the relevant issues.  I would like to express my 
gratitude for the support and straight talk everyone has given me.
  
I am concerned that I gave a bad impression of him.  He is human like
the rest of us with his own problems and abilities/inabilities to cope
with life.  He is basicly a good person.  He is worthy of love (as each 
of us is).  I reached out during a time of extreme pain.  If I have 
colored him as the villian I must apologize.  That was not my desire
or intention.  Nor is it the truth.  

Someone has encouraged me to read a book titled "Co-Dependent No More".
I am doing so and it is extremly helpful.  I did not think it applied 
to me at first.  But, I AM a co-dependent. With strength I can overcome
this dis-ease.  I will learn to love and CARE for myself as much as
I care about others.  I will learn to stop making excuses for the 
behavior of others and allow them to hold themselves responsible for
their own behavior.

I am learning to love myself and to caretake myself not just others.
Please wish me the best.  All of you have my most heartfelt thanks
for your support during a time of intense need.  

				Love and Hugs to All,
					.0

(We all deserve the best life has to offer.  
		Let's fill our orders now.  8*)

    
    
    I DO wish you the best, and assure you that ahead lies a great journey
    of self discovery!  
    
    The book you referenced will be the key to open the door...and inside
    will be a house of many rooms, each with treasures and delights...and
    some pain and sadness, but above all, growth.
    
    Deborah
    
    

    for .14
    
    Kill hope before it kills you...
    
    ... and the "Spoonful" had a song for both of your SO's...
    
    
    "You bet you better finally decide,
    and pick just the one and let the other one ride..."
    
    
    
    Tough stuff to deal with,... I empathize... but you can't control
    this... it's out of your hands.
    
    R.