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Conference quark::human_relations-v1

Title:What's all this fuss about 'sax and violins'?
Notice:Archived V1 - Current conference is QUARK::HUMAN_RELATIONS
Moderator:ELESYS::JASNIEWSKI
Created:Fri May 09 1986
Last Modified:Wed Jun 26 1996
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:1327
Total number of notes:28298

775.0. "...A tough situation..." by ELESYS::JASNIEWSKI (I can feel your heartbeat faster) Fri Jun 02 1989 10:53

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The following topic is being entered anonymously for the author.  If you
wish to share your experiences via VAXMAIL as well as or in addition to 
replying to this note, I (or any of the other H_R mods) would be glad to 
forward your mail.

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What do you do, when you're *very much* in love with you're next
door neighbor and it's mutual?  

Some discussion and background follows:
Two years ago, my new neighbors moved in.  We got along great as we
also did with all the other neighbors in our little neighborhood.  This
little neighborhood has a bunch of great kids who all play together
well and many times their parents and my wife and I will get together
for BBQ's, cards, and some night time partying.  We have one child
and the new neighbors have four.  Their kids are very fond of me
and are always coming over to help with yard work etc, and I do things
for them often, like play soccer, kickball, football, etc. with them
and of course with my child.  I always considered the woman next door to
be attractive but never gave any further thought to that.  I mean, she
is a neighbor and a friend and that was as far as it goes.  Meanwhile,
she also had some feelings for me, but strictly under the same terms.
One night we got a bit too close for comfort and kissed for a while
but stopped there.  We were both feeling pretty good at the time and the
experience was *very* nice.  The next few days that followed, we each felt 
a little strange about what had happened and thought to ourselves that we 
should keep our distance and be careful.  This was roughly half a year ago.  
I don't really know how this happened, but now, we are *very* much in love 
and want to be together always.  It's kind of funny but we both seemed to 
have gotten married for the wrong reasons and we both have been contemplating 
divorce separately, for longer than we have known each other.  We get along 
great, are soooo compatable, and the chemistry is always boiling....if you
know what I mean.  Neither I nor she have ever felt this strongly before.
btw, this is her second marriage, and my first.  Her oldest daughter at
home just turned 15 (youngest boy is 10) and she knows that her mom 
and I are in love and plan to get together permanently, and she thinks 
it's great!  The kids strongly dislike their step-dad, who oftentimes is
very mean to them.  My question is: how do we accomplish this smoothly and
minimize the hurt it may cause to others.  btw, there are many things
not written here; we tried to deny our feelings toward each other for a 
long time at first, but we are convinced that in the long run, it would 
better for everyone involved if we are together.  To her, I am everything
she always wanted in a man, and she is more than I ever dreamed for ---
seems too good to be true!  I didn't want this to happen, it just did,
and I no longer feel guilty about it.  My wife and her husband are not 
aware of our love for each other, but I think they may be a little suspicious.  

The main reason why we're not permenantly together right now, is some
reluctance due to the concern over my son.  Her kids are all from a
previous marriage, but I would like to be the custodial parent of mine.
I realize the importance of involvement from both parents and I am very
concerned with his welfare.  My wife and I have talked a couple of times
about divorce and separation and the importance of equal time with our
child and even if she is custodial, she says she would never ever try to
hinder my time with him -- thank God for that!  He prefers to be with me
anyway.  It think in the long run it's best for him if we were divorced, 
rather than for us to continue in an unhappy marriage.  And yes, I have 
been to counseling and it is a great benefit which helps me see things 
clearly and understand my thoughts.

Have any of you been in a similar situation?  What happened?
What would you do in this type of situation?  Please, no pompus or pious 
attitudes, it's easy to judge and condemn, but if you were in my shoes...
I am very reluctant to enter this note, especially after seeing so many
harsh and insensitive responses---it's an extremely touchy subject, and
I hope the respondents will treat this with objectivity and *not* bias.

So what do you think....and go easy, will ya.....
T.RTitleUserPersonal
Name
DateLines
775.1think again...YODA::BARANSKILooking for the green flashFri Jun 02 1989 12:4574
In my humblest opinion... 

(I don't *know* what's going on... all I can do is read your note...)

"One night we got a bit too close for comfort and kissed for a while but stopped
there.  We were both feeling pretty good at the time and the experience was
*very* nice.  The next few days that followed, we each felt a little strange
about what had happened and thought to ourselves that we should keep our
distance and be careful.  This was roughly half a year ago. I don't really know
how this happened, but now, we are *very* much in love and want to be together
always."

Sigh... forbidden fruit is always so much sweeter...  It might have been better
if you'd gone ahead and 'done it' then and gotten it out of your system. Now,
you've been thinking of it and wishing for it for a year, and the more that you
think about it the stronger it will get. 

"but now, we are *very* much in love and want to be together always.  It's kind
of funny but we both seemed to have gotten married for the wrong reasons and we
both have been contemplating divorce separately, for longer than we have known
each other.  We get along great, are soooo compatable, and the chemistry is
always boiling....if you know what I mean."

I think that you are fooling yourself.

Look at it this way...  if you are not happy in your marriage, it's much easier
to get distracted and get involved in an affair then to work on the problem.
And then, since it is your affair that gives you happiness, you will spend more
and more time on that, and less and less on your marriage. You sure will not be
motivated to work out the problems in your marriage. 

"To her, I am everything she always wanted in a man, and she is more than I ever
dreamed for --- seems too good to be true!"

It is "too good to be true" in the way that you are seeing it.  She may be a
wonderfull person, and you probably are too, and the two of you may be perfecct
for each other. But...  What about your spouses and the committment that you
made to them?  Are you truely incompatible with your spouses?  It would be easy
to hop to the next relationship without coming to grips with the problems, but
then they will repeat themselves with your new partner.

If you are truely incompatible with your partners keep that issue seperate from
wanting to be with your neighbor.  Imagine that you don't have someone waiting
in the wings; how does your spouse compare to that? 

Anyone who has read many of my notes will know that in general I support more
open relationships, and that I'm not attached two-till-death-do-us-part. But I
like my relationships to be healthy, and I never advocate leaving one person for
another.  It's against my very reasons for open relationships.  To me, it's a
distraction from a difficult problem to a 'fleeting pleasure'.  Unless you work
through the problem, whether it results in a divorce or not, the problem will
come up again. 

Having said that...

If you choose to address the problems in your marriages, you may have an uphill
battle with your spouses convincing them that these problems need to be worked
out, and that they have to work at it and listen to you too. 

It's good that your wife is not bent out of shape.  How about the other husband?
I will warn you that the good will is not likely to remain.  Make the most of it
to get the legal details out of the way now if you decide to seperate. Get it in
writing, and get it to the court before sentiments change. 

Then, if you agree to change things between yourselves you don't have to deal
with the court.  The court is the roughest part of divorce and does not help one
bit.

I will warn you that you are setting yourself up for having 1/3 of your gross
income taken from your paycheck for child support.  Yes, that's right, 1/3.

Feel free to contact me through mail if you wish.

Jim Baranski
775.2ACESMK::CHELSEAMostly harmless.Fri Jun 02 1989 13:2615
    Some things to think about:
    
    Compare and contrast this relationship with the relationship you
    first had with your wife back when you met and decided to marry.
    How is it different?  How is it the same?
    
    You say that you've considered divorce for longer than you've known
    her.  Why didn't you act on it earlier?  What kept you in the marriage?
    How has that changed now -- why is it no longer keeping you in the
    marriage?
    
    How long could you wait to merge households without going completely
    bonkers?  Could you wait until the divorce proceedings were over?
    Could you wait for a month after that?  Three months?  Why is it
    that you can wait that much or that little time?
775.3.0 replies...ELESYS::JASNIEWSKII can feel your heartbeat fasterFri Jun 02 1989 17:3059
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	This reply is being entered anonymously by me from the author of the
base note -
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RE: .2

>   Compare and contrast this relationship with the relationship you
>   first had with your wife back when you met and decided to marry.
>   How is it different?  How is it the same?

For the most part, it's *very* different.  I married my wife because I got
her pregnant, and I always believed, or rather tried to convince myself, that 
by giving much effort things could/would work out fine.  Well it's been 7
years and things have not improved -- I'm a bit tired, but I feel I've tried.
It's sad that we have grown apart.  This new relationship is far different.  
It's love and attraction; we have similar interests, intellect, energy, and 
personality -- something quite necessary that just was never there with my
wife and I.  

>    You say that you've considered divorce for longer than you've known
>    her.  Why didn't you act on it earlier?  What kept you in the marriage?
>    How has that changed now -- why is it no longer keeping you in the
>    marriage?

The reasons for hanging on were: hope that things might change for the better,
not wanting to feel like a failure, and concern for my son.  As time marched
on, it has become more and more apparent that we are just not a good match,
and never will be.  I'm sure the affair has affected my thinking on this
somewhat, but it is separate from the deterioration of my marriage.
...not sure if that makes much sense......it does it me anyway.

>    How long could you wait to merge households without going completely
>    bonkers?  Could you wait until the divorce proceedings were over?
>    Could you wait for a month after that?  Three months?  Why is it
>    that you can wait that much or that little time?

I'm not sure about this one.  I'ld like to just pack up my son, my lover, and
her kids and head out to start our new lives together.  However, due to the
complications of home-ownership and concern for the people's lives involved
(namely, my son, wife, her husband, as well as family and friends) we have
to ride this one out a bit.  I really don't know how this will come together.
I picture a separation on each of our parts and moving in together with her
and the kids while proceedings are moving along.  This is the toughest part
to think about and implement.  Anyone got any ideas on this?????


RE: .1  For these reasons given above (concerning personal similarites etc.), 
	I disagree with .1 in that the same problems wouldn't crop up again.
	After all, we are not starting out with the problems to begin with,
	as I did with my wife, and my coming to her is not under moral 
	obligation etc... 

	I really hope that I can be the custodial parent and that there remains
	a solid agreement between my wife and I on this point; but if not,
	thanks for tip on the legal part.  I will get it in writing asap.  As
	for 1/3 of pay goes, oh well, I guess there is sometimes a price to
	pay for mistakes.  I picture that as an expense that will benefit our
	son.  I will always be an intricate part of my sons life and will 
	remain as active as possible, no matter what.
775.4(B-} I did that once...PH4VAX::MCBRIDEI'm younger than that now.Sat Jun 03 1989 19:0236
    I lived this once, with minor differences.  I was married, she was
    married.  I was unhappy in my 1st marriage, she was unhappy in her
    2nd.  Boy...did we *need* each other.  It was so different, it was
    so exciting.  We talked.  We communicated.  She was everything in
    a woman that I could ever want.  The inevitable crisis came quickly.
    The divorces followed, the bitter recriminations and legal hassles
    that happen in these things followed.  And then we were married.
    
    The problems between the children were very bad, but, I think they
    were caused by the fact that the kids each *owned* a parent and
    deserved to be there but since I didn't have custody there was no
    time to iron out the territorial conflicts.  Having custody may
    smooth those out.  There will allways be problems with kids and
    the more kids the more the problems.  
    
    After we were married, there was a live in arrangement for a few
    years, things deteriorated very quickly.  Since my second wife is
    a DEC employee, I will not go into the details of the breakup. 
    I will, however suggest that you read "The Partners Within" (I think
    that is the title, I can check if you want) and "The Road Less
    Traveled".  Each deal, in part, with our projecting our internal
    needs onto other people.  What we see is not necessarily what we
    get but rather what we are.  Read them...see how they relate
    to you.  As you may have guessed, I am not married to my second
    wife anymore.  It lasted less than 2 years...a lot less.  In the
    afore mentioned volumes there are very lengthy discussions of the
    'transferrance'.  If I had read them before, I probably still would
    have ignored the warning signs.  The warning signs were there adn
    I didn't see them.
    
    Personally...I will *NEVER* get myself into your situation again.
    My recommendation is:  If you insist on getting together (sometimes
    these things work) don't get married for a while; Don't live together
    for a while; read (*PLEASE*) the above mentioned texts.  You don't
    need to go through another divorce and there is plenty of time left
    in your, her, my life.