Conference quark::human_relations-v1

Quite frankly, there isn't anything you can do for your brother.
He is the only one who can "do" for him.  What you can do for
yourself is get into a support group.  Attend support group meet-
ings.  If there is not a support group in your area specifically
for families of drug users, try Al-Anon or Co-Dependents Anon.

Go to your local bookstore.  Look for books related to 'self-help'.
There are many, many excellent books offering help on dealing with
people in your life with a dependency.

The best way for you to assist your brother is to help yourself
first.  Learn to understand and cope effectively with the impact
he is having on your life.  And be there for him.  I would caution
against offering him advice.  Better to tell him what you are doing
for yourself, and what you have learned. Offer to listen if he wants
to talk.

It is so difficult to watch a loved one self-destruct.  Good luck.

Deborah

    
    	Dear anon, I understand how torn apart you feel. Exchange
    	the word "son" for "brother" and I could have wrote the
    	base note. My son has even gone further than your brother
    	has by being in trouble with the law and runing to advoid
    	going to jail. Now his whole future is going to be spent
    	always looking over his shoulder checking to see the law
    	isn't there ready to slap the cuffs on.
    
    	 Like you and your parents, I also was close to the verge of
    	a break-down worring about him. It's is hard, but somehow
    	you have to remind yourself he is getting close to an adult,
    	and as such makes his own life choices. You or anyone else
    	may think them wrong, but there really isn't anything you
    	can do except sit back and let them go. It does hurt, but
    	PLEASE, remember it's not your or your parents fault, he
    	made the choice and he is going to be the one that must live
    	with the results.
    

    If he is into drugs, is one of them alcohol?  If so, I suggest that
    you try attending an Al-Anon meeting.  It is for people who must
    live with the effects of an alcoholic in their lives, but whether
    or not alcohol is involved in your case, it might be helpful.  People
    there will understand what you are dealing with.
    
    Steve
    

    I can only repky to emphasis what has already been said.
     Get to support groups, YOU ARE NOT ALONE! Hsare the pain 
    many will yu poor thing or how can he do this /that to the family
    but those that have lived through it can better help you.
     
      Try tough love! No matter how hard itmay be and no matter hwo
    many times you break down and cry afterwards, tough love is one
    of the best ways to enusre yourself that YOU don't break mentally
    or physically.
    
      Please take care of yourself in everyway eat healthy, get pleanty
    of GOOD sleep. Remember if you are in the best of health then you
    are able to deal with all of life better.
    
       You might try prying, it never hurts, just remember your idea
    of time and His idea of time are often two different ideas.
    
        Just try to remember it's not your or your family's fault even
    though he may try to say it is, he is only justifing his own actions
    by doing this.
    
      Good Luck...
    Lisa

    in .4 I goofed it was suppose to say pray not pry.
         thanxs Lisa

    
    
        Thank you everyone for the support. 
    
    	I guess when I wrote the note it sounds like Scott has a
    	drug dependency.  Not really, not yet anyway.  He started
    	experimenting when things got too tough for him to handle.
    	But I think that when he moves in with the Dave guy it
    	may get worse.  If this is one of the kids who introduced
    	him to drugs, then it is likely that they will be around
    	when Scott moves in.  I don't even know how old this guy
    	is!!  He's just shut everything out.
    
    	I'm hoping that it will not get to that extreme.  But it
    	may and at that time is when I'll be looking to support
    	groups for help.
    
    	Again, thank you all.
    
    

         
         
         Well, I can certainly understand where you're coming from.  I
         went through a very similar experience with my younger
         brother.  When I was in 10th grade, my parents separated in
         preparation for an amicable divorce.  Unfortunately, it ended
         up being very messy and ugly, and took several years to
         resolve.  
         
         Fortunately for me, I left home to go to college at about the
         same time as things were starting to get messy.  My two
         younger brothers weren't as lucky, however, and were caught
         square in the middle of things.  
         
         My youngest brother (12 at the time) was young enough and
         resilient enough to deal with the situation. (Basically, when
         he got pissed at someone, he yelled back at them and let them
         know in no uncertain terms how he felt about the matter. :*] )
         
         My other brother (about 16 then, probably the worst possible
         time for this to happen) took things much harder, became very
         depressed, and did many of the same things you mentioned.  He
         started doing some drugs, hanging out with a "bad" crowd,
         withdrawing from family life, leeting his grades drop,
         getting in trouble with the law, etc.  Instead of talking (or
         yelling, or crying....) about things, he internalized them
         and became a very bitter person.  
         
         I tried to talk with him a few times, but without much luck. 
         I agree with what others have said, in that there's not a lot
         you can do, and that there is NO WAY that you can MAKE him
         turn his life around.  
         
         My brother had heard so many lectures about what was
         happening and why, and why he should do "such and such", that
         he didn't want to hear it anymore.  I guess rebelling against
         all of that was his way of stating how he felt about the
         divorce.  When I tried to talk to him, he saw me as just
         another lecturer tying to bullsh*t him.  
         
         Luckily, he still went to college, and went far enough away
         (to Milwaulkee - we lived in Maryland) that he was
         effectively was on his own and was able to deal with things
         and recover from the emotional stress.  He will be graduating
         soon from college, has had the same girlfriend for over a
         year (a first for him), and has plenty of ideas as to what he
         wants to do after graduating.
         
         I guess all I really have to say is to hang in there.  I
         would encourage him to go to college, as it would get him
         away from home and give him the chance to make a fresh start. 
         Anything you can think of that would give him some new goals,
         or to help him heal from whatever is depressing him might
         also be of help. 
         
         What it comes down to is that he has to make the decision
         himself if he is to turn his life around.  You can let him
         know that you're there for him, but, in my experience, if you
         push him too hard, it will only make things worse.  By all
         means, if you don't think you can deal with it by yourself,
         look for some support.
         
         
         
         I hope this has helped,
         
         >>Andy<<

    I'd echo much of what's already been said, particularly by
    Deb (.1) and would add only one thing, based on what you said
    in your base note and reiterated in .6
    
    	� He's just shut everything out.
        � 
    	� I'm hoping that it will not get to that extreme.  But it
    	� may and at that time is when I'll be looking to support
     	� groups for help.
    
    What I want to key on is that first sentence - you said something
    very similar to that in .0 and is one of the strongest indications
    that things are already getting "that extreme".  From my experience,
    one of the most common threads that runs amongst people with dependency
    problems (chemical or otherwise) is that of "stuffing" or "burying" 
    feelings.  And one of the most common manifestations of this thread
    is isolation - shutting out those people who would bring one in
    contact with those feelings; "friends" are then those with whom
    one can escape dealing head-on with feelings.  
    
    It sounds like your brother may be heading that way; he may not,
    but the feeling I get is that this is the path he's heading down.
    If this is so, I think it'd be wise for you to consider the risk
    to yourself now; one of the most common phrases heard in discussions
    of co-dependency is "It didn't seem like it was all that bad yet".
    
    I agree with those who say that there's very little you can do;
    certainly you *cannot* "fix" him and trying to figure out what
    you can do or say that will make him come to his senses can lead
    down the road of co-dependency for you.
    
    I'm in agreement with those who suggest that you look into something
    like Al-Anon now and I'd further suggest shopping around a bit.
    Each group has it's own distinct personality and it's well worth
    spending the time to find one that really feels like home to you.
    
    Wishing you strength and serenity,
    
    Steve
    

	Often, getting someone to talk involves being a good listener
or knowing how to *listen* well. Part of these skills includes
being aware of your speaking context; how you come across. Talking
in a yelling telling manner, no matter how rational what you say
may be, is a lousy way to listen. Anyone who is having problems
with keeping things bottled up simply will not respond being 
adressed in that manner.

	You kinda have to lead them to what they want to say, by your
own skillful participation in the conversation. I can tell you why
perhaps he has trouble with talking to "dad" as you've said (they
dont even talk anymore...), and it's because of dad's *tone* - as
soon as he hears - let me say *detects* - a tone of authority, he
clams right up - end of conversation!

	There's a couple of things you mentioned in the base note that
I might make note of. That you know he was upset by "big sister"
moving out and that he's apparently still viewed in the context of
being the 'baby' of the family. Your moving out is simply indicative
of change, and the eventual breakup of the family as it was known,
which can be traumatic. This view of him as 'baby' is simply
inappropriate for him now; he's a man, and mother will just have t			
surrender or "let go" of that view. Doing so will certin his self definition.

	Joe
 Jas

    
    	Here he goes again purporting that the problem is the *person*...
    Believe what you want to believe Mike, you'll only serve to stall
    and delay things further, possibly forever. "Dont ride the white
    horse" - Hey! That's a real positively contexted positive motivation
    for someone...you might as well just tell 'em "go ahead", for all
    the effectiveness *that* has.
    
    	Joe Jas
    

	 I don't believe the problem lies only with the person (drug
	 addict, emotionally disturbed, etc).  I know, from
	 experience, that the second you get
	 defensive/domineering/authoritative with that person, you are
	 going to lose them.

	 People in this situation are reaching out for help, but they
	 want honest, uplifting help--they also don't believe that you
	 care....you have to prove it.  It's almost like they are
	 testing you.  "Well, if this person really cares, no matter
	 how much sh!t I give then, they will stick by me."  A person
	 in this situation doesn't feel they have any friends.  If you
	 act condenscending to them, you've just proved what they
	 thought all along...that you really didn't care (even though
	 you do).

	 Never, Never, Never!  No matter how hard it is, don't ever
	 take that kind of attitude with a person in this situation.
	 If you do, chances are that you will never get through to
	 them.

	 Want more?  I can go on for pages on who you should treat
	 someone with this sort of problem.  Let's just say I've had a
	 lot of experience with situations like this.

	 kath

    re: .11
    
    From a personal viewpoint, Joe, I'd agree with Mike here.  While
    agree with both you and kathy that *how* a concerned person approaches
    an addict *can* make a great deal of difference, communication is
    still a two-way street.  If the addict is not willing or ready to
    listen, the communcation won't happen; it often helps to remember that 
    denial is the hallmark of the disease/affliction/condition/whatevah.
    
    The trap for the concerned person lies in believing that "If only 
    I can find the right words, the right approach, I can cure/help/fix 
    the person I care for."  Until the individual is in a place to reach
    out and ask for help (vs. isolating, for example), all a caring
    person can do is let it be know that (s)he is there, cares, and
    is willing to help for the one who's suffering.
    
    Steve
    

    Re: .6
    
   >    I guess when I wrote the note it sounds like Scott has a
   >    drug dependency.  Not really, not yet anyway.  He started
   >    experimenting when things got too tough for him to handle.

    Don't be fooled.  Listen to your own words.   The last sentence
    above has the earmarks of early stage dependency but dependency
    nevertheless. 
    
    Steve
    

	 RE: .14

	 These people *are* reaching out...but they trust NO ONE.
	 If you are truly there for them, they don't know it and must
	 have it proved to them.

	 Communication is a two-way street, yes....but you can be
	 assured that even though someone like this wishes to
	 communicate with you, they most likely won't because they
	 don't trust.

	 We all hate having to PROVE we are trustworthy, but if you
	 care enough, you will.


	 kath




	 
    

    re: .16
    
    I'd suggest, kath, that individuals *may* be reaching out.  I
    agree that, in general, they have little trust for anyone and
    I suspect that this is because they have very little for themselves.
    This, btw, isn't meant as any form of judgement; simply observations,
    both first and second hand.  But whether or not a person *is*
    reaching out at any given moment is another question.
    
    One of the baseline attitudes of one who's addicted (to most anything) 
    and still in a denial phase is expressed as "I can take care of this 
    myself; I don't need anybody's help."  As long as this is the dominant
    attitude, it doesn't matter how much a concerned person is "there"
    for the sufferer; caring words will be rejected as much as authoritarian 
    ones.  Also, while I agree with you that condescending words are
    virtually never appropriate, sometimes a kind of authoritarian approach
    can work (e.g. "tough love") where a kid glove approach fails.
    
    But, through all of this, I think the central problem before us
    is how the base note author can make it through this situation.
    The reason organizations like Al-Anon and CoDA exist is because
    many people over the years have found that there were no words
    or actions they could express that would bring the addict out
    into the light of help.  And worse, they found that they were
    beginning to develop problems of their own - co-dependency.
    
    Yes, there may come a time when Scott can and will hear words
    of help and caring (be they "tough" or "easy" sounding); but 
    until he reaches his own emotional bottom, his own desparation
    point, there is little likelihood of this.  For those around
    him, the difficult task is to stay sane for themselves and for
    this, the support groups mentioned can be invaluable.
    
    Steve 

    Re: .0
    
    I think one thing to avoid is having anyone in the family circle
    "wash their hands" of him.  If, by some chance, he continues on
    a self-destructive course but comes to his senses farther down the
    line, he needs a place to escape to.
    
    Going to college sounds like it might be a good idea.  He seems
    to be directionless.  You don't have to know what you want to do
    when you enter college.  Most students change majors 2-3 times in
    their college careers anyway.  College is a good place to find new
    interests or develop old ones.  Also, living on his own could do
    him some good.  If he's the "baby," he might need that independence.
    
    This whole independence thing is pretty scary.  Because you need
    to be independent, you push away.  But being on your own is not
    always comfortable and you need the reassurance that you're cared
    about.  Since you're being independent, you can't ask for that.
    So you wind up pushing harder, looking for a reaction that proves
    you're still loved but fearing/resenting intrusion.  All in all,
    a very weird situation.  My isolationist moods (different cause
    but similar symptoms) are accompanied by a general dissatisfaction
    with just about everything in my life.  This time I've decided to
    make some changes, but overcoming the inertia of habit is hard.

    There is a process called Crisis Intervention that has been used
    successfully to help people with addiction.
    
    The important theme here is that in order to help you really need
    support and there are groups available that will provide that.

    Ok now from a different perspective....
    
    Think about being in his shoes.  It's tough, I was in a simular
    situation as your brother.  I'm not trying to scare you or anything
    but sometimes when a person goes into a downward spiral like he
    is it could mean something dangerously wrong.
    
    Last year after my rough break up I was extreamly depressed and
    thought of suicide.  I decided against it but I still had feelings
    of destroying myself.  I drank to excess and experimented with some
    drugs.  I felt alone and that no one cared.  Yet I was blind to
    see how many people did care.  I felt that I had no purpose in life
    and didn't care if I died or hurt myself.  I was lucky to have
    supportive parents, siblings and friends who never gave up on me.
     One thing that really made me straighten myself out was a simple
    card sent to me by my best friend.  It said "If you ever need
    someone..." (open it up) "....I'm someone.".  I was so touched by
    this I almost broke down in tears.  It made me think that someone
    really did care and it let me see all the people that were showing
    their caring.  I began to straighten out from then on in.  I did
    it on my own free will and I feel good about myself now....just
    let him know how much you love him and it can work wonders....
    
    The Rebel

    	I had a similar experience with my son - much the same scenario
    as the author's - middle class family, not wanting for material
    things and creature comforts, good values in the home, etc ...
    
    	For all that we tried to do, as parents, he had to hit his bottom
    before he could be helped. It was very painful to watch as he dug
    his hole deeper and deeper. When he finally ended up in court, a
    caring probation officer worked with us to place him in a program
    for rehabilitation youths with alcohol and other drug problems.
    
    	The program - much like a summer camp setting, lasted 8 weeks,
    and fortunately - it worked for him. 
    
    	While you wait, you will find support in a group such as Alanon,
    and if you are of Religious persuasion, prayer is so necessary now.
    
    	There are no magic instant answers, and you have my sympathy,
    my prayers, and support.
    
    	Guy B.
    

    	I don't know that there's much I can add to the good words/
    advice that have been written here already.  I agree with Mike and
    Steve in that until the user is ready to listen and help himself/
    herself, all you can do is learn to accept what is and take care 
    of yourself.  And sometimes there are cases where the person just 
    doesn't want to stop...and this can go on for years.  You have to 
    remember that it's *his* (or her) life, and you are not responsible.
    For parents, this is even tougher to accept than for siblings 
    (which isn't easy either).  I've seen a parent go through it...and is 
    still going through it some 7 years later.  It's not easy...it can 
    do a real job on a family.  But you can't let it rule your life.  Be 
    there, let him know you are there, if it looks like he is asking for 
    help, get him help.  And know that you are not alone.

    Good luck....I hope that things will work out.

    	Amy

	Well I am happy to say that my brother graduated last night.
	We were all beginning to wonder if it would happen.  It was
	a big relief for my mom.

	He will be getting a new job soon at a nearby mall and he 
	won't be moving out as soon as he was at first.  Still this
	summer though.

	And he made a demo tape and sent it to Star Search for a
	possible audition.  

	So I guess things are slowly starting to look up.  I asked
	him if he had stopped the drugs and he said yes.  I want to
	believe him.  I just hope that now that he has his diploma
	and he is stepping out into the real world, he realizes
	that he has his whole life ahead of him; and that he'll
	do something to make it prosperous.

	Thank you all for your kind words and advice.  They did 
	help.