Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    re.0
    
    	I have a question to pose. Are you seeking advise on your last
    question,(<how to break the ties) or are you leaving this topic
    open to other advise and ideas? I am asking this before commenting,
    because this topic may lend itself to extremely varied opinions,
    and before commenting it may be wise to know what you are looking
    for. I personally do not want to discuss my ideas on the subject
    if indeed I may put opinions in here that may not of any value.
    
    Please let us know. (or at least me. Ha ! :)  )

    Your acknowledgement of the situation is an important first step.
     Now comes the real work.  Take a look at the type of men you've
    been involved with and see if there's a common denominator (other
    than the fact that these have been short-term relationships).  What
    did _you_ get out of the relationships?  What did you _want_ to
    get out of the relationships?
    
    I highly recommend Norwood's book "Women Who Love Too Much".  It's
    a real eye-opener, and may well help you identify several "grey
    areas".
    
    If you'd like to drop me a line, please feel free.  You might also
    want to access RAINBO::WOMANNOTES-V2, where there are several
    discussions which may provide useful information.
    
    Regards,
    Judi
    

Hmmmm...

You say you have affairs...  I'll assume that you are married or some
approximation then... or the other people are married.

You are 'in love' with people after you 'make love' with them...  sounds
pretty normal... it happens with me too...

You reach a point where you have to let go and you can't...

Well, you could ask yourself why you have to let go, and is that really what you
want and what is best for you.  You could ask yourself if having to let go later
is really worth getting involved in the first place... 

"it's just that I seem to have so much love to give and when I find someone that
deserves it I can't stop giving."

I know how that feels, very well...  I don't really know what to tell you about
letting go, except that you can keep your love for someone, regardless of
whether you are in contact with them anymore, or regardless of whether they can
return your love for them in any real way.  Just let yourself to be content with
your love for them, and don't get attached to any particular outcome from it.
Let them be who they need to be...  Then you can either see them, or not
see them, whichever the situation requires.

Good luck,

Jim.

    re: .2
    
    	I don't see any indication that the author of .0 is a woman.
    	But I can understand these feelings.  There have been times
    	when I've slept with someone that I almost feel an obligation
    	to myself to care about the person and pursue things, that to
    	cheerfully walk away with only a memory and without making an 
    	effort to try for a more serious relationship isn't what nice
    	girls do.
    
	Not every relationship has the potential to be permanent, nor 
    	should it.  I'm not implying this is what .0 is doing.  This 
    	is my perspective when I've experienced something similar.
    
    							Carla
    

    
    	Sure, I know how to break those ties. Just switch the context
    of what you're doing from "them" to "your self".
    
    	Genuinely feel for yourself. Want to care for _that_ person.
    Call it love if you like.....
    
    	Be sensitive to your own needs. Consider finding yourself as
    "someone who deserves it".
    
    	Making a fool of your self? Try to imagine why you feel that
    way! I mean, it sound like you'd "give the moon if it was your's
    to give" - to another.
    
    	*That*, is inappropriate behavior. There is _no one_ more deserved
    of your attentions, that you yourself. 
    
    	I realize, from personal experience, that it may not be possible
    for you to feel that "caring" way, in any other context than that of 
    "another person". It may seem ludicrous to consider that this also
    has value in the context of the self. If so, I feel for you.
    
    	The way out is to realize that you only need youself to care,
    love, and deserve nice things. The "other" as being all_important
    in this is only what you've been taught; it's incorrect, and is
    screwing up your life right now. Some people believe love can only
    exist, or "be had" in the context of a relationship with _another_.
    That's bullsh*t!
    
    	Trouble is, you believe it to the point where you can only feel
    it in that context - the context of feeling it for the self only
    seems absurd. So you search, you may find another, you lose and
    search again. There's lots of people who'd love to have a caring
    mother again!
    
    	Joe Jas\
     

    I don't see any reference in .0 to gender either.  For the time
    being I will assume your "affairs" are not with married people,
    and that you are not married/engaged yourself...as I am hoping is
    the case.
    
    I would say that acknowledgement that this may be a problem is a
    good first step.  I can see several problems that may be caused
    by your activities...
    
    1.  People may be looking for a friendship initially, perhaps with
    physical overtones, and you "jump the gun".  Perhaps you are
    susceptible to love, and you love to be in love, and you love that
    special feeling with that certain special someone.  Unfortunately,
    often the other person either is not seeking this form of relationship,
    or it takes them longer to attain "love" than it takes you, resulting
    in a seriously unbalanced relationship.
    
    2.  Perhaps the people you tend to fall for are independent types
    (often there are archetypical people that one person will fall for
    again and again...perhaps you can note similarities in your selected
    lovers), who don't want to get "attached".  This would also explain
    why you might feel the fool when confronted with evidence that you're
    looking for something they don't wish to give.  Another foolish
    feeling might stem from your continued regard for them, and desire
    for closeness, when they have chilled the relationship (which will
    often happen when you ask for too much, too soon, from someone who
    had entirely different plans).
    
    3.  Perhaps you try to force every friendship you have with a potential
    lover into that now-recognized mould....and they may well balk if
    that wasn't something they desired or planned on.  Listen to them
    and *hear* what they are saying.  Take their feelings to heart,
    and respect them.
    
    I'd suggest you take up some hobbies, perhaps in groups or alone.
    Time alone will help you see the ways you can love yourself and
    stand on your own, without the tremendous need for love-with-another.
    Time with groups will help you feel social and interconnected and
    friendly, without getting you in a "loving" way.  Reduce the number
    of love-affairs you have, and make sure the other person understands
    what you expect, and is willing to meet your needs, BEFORE allowing
    it to progress to the love-stage.  Also, with-hold love until they
    are ready for it, if they are ever ready for it.  Some people don't
    necessarily wish to be in love (for whatever reason).  Some people
    may already love another, or be recovering from a shattered love.
    
    -Jody
    

    being new at this i really goofed up on my first reply i want 
    this to go with 746. well here goes.
    i to love to have affairs and some times you can get wrapped up
    in feelings for that person but if you or that person have  some
    sort of feelings why does it have to stop. feeling and love are
    reaally to big different things and i for one feel that i can have
    both.maybe me and the original author could get in touch with each
    other and compare feeling together as some times it is hard to break
    off when feeling are strong

    re .4,.7
    
    You're right, gender was not mentioned in the base note.  I was
    speaking from a feminine perspective.  Norwood's book is valuable
    for _both_ men and women to read, and gain understanding about the
    "undertows" in a relationship.
    
    There are many books and support groups which deal with addictive
    behavior.  Once the addiction has been identified, the next step
    is to examine it and the related issues, whether by reading, private
    counseling or group discussion.
    
    Addictive behaviors are not simple issues.  Many times there are
    layers of "stuff" which have to be worked through before the whys
    and wherefores of the addiction can be identified.
    
    I wish the basenote author well.
    

I am going to rely on nothing but what was said in .0 and resist 
the temptation to assume I already know you. As a result, I can't
make a statement, but would like to make a quick observation.

You go to bed with people. **Then**, (during the morning/weeks
after) you fall for them. Personally (and undoubtedly, due to my own
convoluted psychological setup), I find this screwy (no pun
intended). To my way of thinking, one first develops a caring for
another and only **then**, to culminate that caring, goes to bed
with them. 

Because I never (not counting Farah and others of her ilk) felt the
urge to go to bed with a person I did not deeply care for, I have
never faced the question you now pose; namely: "Any ideas on how to
break these ties?" 

Suppose you just change the pattern. Require and insist that you
feel deeply for a person **before** having sex. Would that resolve
(or at least, lessen the impact of) your problem? 

-- Ron

    I agree with everything that Jody said in .7.  Also, I don't think
    there is anything *wrong* with having sex with someone whom you
    don't care deeply for.  But, this type of sex has to be mutual or
    one of you will get hurt.  You can't allow yourself to have deep
    feelings for someone until you find out if they are on the verge
    of having deep feelings for you.  You can't force yourself into
    another person's life.  You can't keep calling people who will make
    you feel like a fool for getting in touch with them.  You have to
    have some pride and self-respect.  You have to make your pride more
    important to you than desperately seeking a relationship with someone
    who would rather never hear from you again.  Follow Jody's advice
    about hobbies, interests, etc., in order to help achieve this. 
    Sometimes in life we can't seem to get everything we need from one
    person.  Maybe you can get love and affection from real friends
    whom you don't necessarily have sex with, and stop expecting anything
    besides sex from most of the people you go to bed with.
    
    Several years ago one of my friends told me about a third woman
    who was a friend of hers, who called and chased after one particular
    guy until one day when she called him up, and he recognized her
    voice, he yelled into the phone, "Just get the F**k out of my life!"
    Try not to ever give anybody the opportunity to say that to you.
    
    Lorna
    

Re .1

Open forum! Any ideas, general or specific, will be welcomed.
Thanks for asking.


Re .5

Jo,

I understand your view, and in principle I totally agree with you. The
idea of "self love" doesn't seem weird to me.

Trouble is, I've got my wires crossed a bit here. I do love myself, and
therefore like to give myself pleasure. The greatest pleasure I feel
is when I've really meshed with another soul.....hence the "love addiction".
I guess if it was all pain for me then I'd find it easier to break the
habit.

I believe that Love, physical or soul, is the one thing in this world you
can't barter. You can never trade it for an expected return, or qualify
it, or measure it. It's just a pure gift that you decide to give. Or not.

The joy of giving.....
Sublime and supreme....

     
    	Re .12 -
                
    >The greatest pleasure I feel is when I've really meshed with another
    >soul..
    
    	Me too. I mean, I'll admit that. Sure - no contest - with *any*
    other pleasure I know of. I've said it before too, elsewhere. It's
    kinda too bad that it's that way, regardless of the reasons why,
    because it allows - just a little too easily - for a dependancy to
    form.
    
    	Because it involves _another person_, just for it to be able
    to happen. Solution! Find another - just like me - and we'll both
    go careening off into the great vortex of pleasure, *together*. But,
    gee, never seems to happen that way. There's this resentment that
    eventually comes between those in a codependant relationship. Perhaps
    you can avoid that ever happening if you never dwell with any one
    person long enough...
    
    	If a monogamous codependant relationship, resentment comes from
    fear. Fear is often present, because either partner is too scared
    to even consider life outside the context of the relationship. They
    deal with it, albeit they dont like to. In time the dislike of this
    fear turns into resentment of that which allows for the fear - namely
    the other person and the codependant relationship they are (so)
    willing to provide. Even though "they didnt do anything". Even though
    one might think: "But I love her/him?!?".
    
    	As a result, I'm afraid to give my gifts - walk the slippery
    rim_edge of the codependant chasm - I might fall in! And perhaps
    end up where you are. My thinking is perhaps if I force myself to
    at least avoid...delay that gratification some...I just might feel
    that maybe it's OK for me to be just me, "without" or whatever.
    Yes, it hurts to see the other gushers "in love" - I wish I could
    "allow for that". Sometimes, it *sucks* to "know better"!
    
    	People keep tellin' me that someday...
    
    	Joe Jas                               
    
    	

    There was an interresting discussion of this in Bradshaw's "Healing
    the Shame That Binds You".
    
    This not being my field I suggest you, and any reader who is addicted
    to anything, read that volume.  My interpretation of this portion
    (as it applies to me for another form of addiction) is that people
    who have had a childhood trauma are sometimes left with an unfillable
    empty feeling.  In their development they have found things or actions
    that make them feel good.  It soothes the undeveloped child in them
    (us).  Some of us feel good when we eat; some of us feel good when
    we physically abuse ourselves (jogging, marathons, triathalons,
    bar fights).  Some of us feel good when we are involved sexually
    or have an intense relationship.
    
    Summary:
    	You and I and all of us are unique.  We came from our own
    childhoods.  We carry our own scars.  We need to know what they
    are , how they got there and that they are there for good, but they
    don't have to cripple us.  If you are good enough, smart enough
    to ask the question, you are ready to make the journey.  Read.
    

    There is also some interesting research being done on compulsive
    behavior.  There is significant evidence that our inability to
    control behaviors is chemical.  
    
    Hopefully in the future we will know more about this and people
    like the author of the base note will not feel that they are at
    fault.  

    
    Re: .16
    
    I may have misunderstood, but the situation where the other person
    tells the base-noter to get lost is, I thought, precisely what
    he/she is worried about.
    
    To borrow a previous phrase...the base-noter needs to learn how
    to stop contact before the "other" tells them to "Get the f**k out
    the my life". The indicating signs are seen, but the base-noter
    can't obey them.
    
    'gail
    

Re: .2

I bought "Women Who Love Too Much" yesterday, and started reading it last
night.....

It was like finding my double, like a slap in the face, like hope......

Thankyou, Judi, for recommending it!

I am being cautious of adoping one book/theory as my "saviour" and
the answer to all my concerns, but there is SO MUCH in there that is
SO FAMILIAR. I've never been one for reading psychology-type books -
I've always found them rather hard-going and irrelevant - but I
would recommend this book to *everyone*, male or female, as a fascinating 
read if nothing else. It's not long, or expensive, and it's easy to read.

I can see that I have a lot of work ahead of me, but I feel I'm on
the right track.

Thank you all for your thoughtful comments. They have helped me
to see different facets of my attitude that are causing me to 
inflict pain on myself. 

Jo, you were right - my self-loving ain't as great as I thought!
Your sensitivity and insight are a gift to others.

TO THE ANONYMOUS AUTHOR OF NOTE 749....(if you're reading this!)

*Please* read this book. 
I have a hunch it may help you as much as it will help me. 

    
    
    I have 2 more books to recommend:
    
    Co-Dependent No More (How To Stop Controlling Others And
    Start Caring For Yourself)
              author:  M.Beattie
    
    StageII Recovery  (Life Beyond Addiction)
              author:  E. Larsen
    
    
    Deborah
    

    Glad it got clear that everyone can get something out of "Women
    Who Love Too Much."  Norwood recently published a book of letters
    from people who found the book useful.  In it is a chapter of letters
    from men.  In that chapter, she makes clear that while she recognized
    that the issues she addresses in the book relate to both men and
    women, she felt that as a woman, she really could not address men's
    issues around this.
    
    One more thought or two for the base noter... sex has a way of clouding
    the mind regarding love (and other things)... a friend of mine is
    fond of referring to it as God's Cosmic Joke on us.  Imagine, if
    you will, being some creature who could stand and watch human mating
    behavior as we watch pigeons in the park.  We do some pretty silly
    things... you might try keeping that picture in mind next time.
    Tends to keep things in proportion.
    
    R.