Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    
	As soon as you experience pain, and you take the time to
    	deal with it, then part of the innocence goes away.  If
    	you don't deal with it, you can remain naive forever!
    
    	Being innocent and naive is appealing and *fresh*!  It
    	was fun to meet new people!  I, too, enjoyed getting
    	to know them. 
        
	I think I'm more talkative now than most times because
    	I just "graduated" from a Divorce Recovery Workshop.
    	I know I'm not the same person I was just 7 weeks ago.

    	In some ways I miss the free spirit inside of me that
    	was so anxious to come out and experience everything
    	new.  Parts of the innocent child are gone.  In the
    	place of innocence and naivity are growth and wisdom.
    
	Ignorance is no excuse to the IRS.  It's a selfish
    	and childish attitude.  I've been guilty of these
    	attitudes and I didn't like what that made me.
    
    	Sure, it's scary to be responsible for our actions.
    	I could get hurt in the next relationship I attempt.
    	I could hurt someone.

    	Loss of innocence just makes us think about what we
    	do to make the next time better.  Maybe I'm still
    	naive enough to believe that there is love again
    	in my future.
    
    		Sherry

    
    	Hi,
    
    	Reminds me of the Bob Segar song "Against the wind" with it's
    line "wish I didnt know now what I didnt know then"
    
    	I cant really make that statement to my self in all seriousness.
    Knowledge and awareness are the keys of change; they make it possible!
    
    	Sure, you can have your "innocence" back. But you gotta take
    the stupidity that goes with it, too - and very likely go through
    *all* the "trouble" that got you right to where you are now, again!
    
    	Sound like a good deal? Willing to take another shot as "the
    young and inexperienced"? Want to go through *again* that which has
    got you "here"? 
    
    	Sherry hit it right on the head; Innocence is saved when people
    refuse to deal with the kind of problems that are *trully their's*.
    You can remain a child forever - just continually avoid dealing
    with yourself and your own problems.
    
    	Some people pick up on that "child" part and find it quite
    attractive. Others have been that route themselves and no longer
    wish to deal with the child within an adult. Love takes on very
    different meanings within each situation.
    
    	Joe Jas
     

    
   Can't there be a middle ground somewhere?  Keep the open attitudes
   of our younger years and use the knowledge of our "maturing" years?
   Yes, we all get hurt at some point in our lives and yes, we need
   to move on.  But what about the people who take what they've learned
   in one relationship and hold it against the next relationship.  For
   instance, I have a friend whose motto is "A man is guilty until proven
   innocent."  Obviously, she has been hurt in the past but her idea
   is not only ludicrous, it's not fair.  When she dates a man, she
   just sits there and wait for him to make ONE mistake and then it's
   so long bucko!  All of us are scared and wrap that protective layer
   ever so close; but sometimes in protecting ourselves, we cut ourselves
   off from that which we want the most.  
    
   Perhaps maturity is knowing what to keep from our youth and blend
   it with the confidence, security, and intelligence of our current years. 
                                         
   Jim asked if we miss it.....sometimes what I miss is the carefree
   feeling of my youth; but I know one can never go back.
    
    
    Kris
     

RE:  .0                       -< lost innocence >-

Very interesting question!

A sense of security - can we attain it?  Are there any guarantees that
we will stay secure?  I don't think so.  The fact that we are born means
we must die.  That is about all that is guaranteed.  

As soon as we attach to something, there is fear that we will lose it.
This fear stops us from being 100% in the moment with the object of
that attachment.   If you haved ever loved someone but was afraid of
losing that person all the time, you will know what I mean.

Is is possible to live without this problem?  To trust 100% in
whatever the moment has to offer?  Including fear?  Can we accept that
fear arises and not get attached to it?  To just be with it and accept
it in a friendly way?  Or do we try and evade it by building walls to
keep it away, to keep it at bay?  The things with these walls is that
they keep everything out.  To guard against fear is to guard against joy. 

For myself, who also experiences this, I have been trying to
acknowledge and accept my fear and not attach to it.  I try and accept
it in a friendly way and just let it be.  If there is something that
needs to be taken care of, then I try and deal with it.  For example,
if your lover comes home late every night smelling of sex, then there
is fear of "losing" that person and it has to be dealt with.  But I
find most of my fear is groundless.  I try and see how it affects my
life.  When it arises, I try and stay real steady and centered and I
find that it will usually pass all by itself without leaving a harmful
trace.  I find meditation to be a good way to face fear and
insecurity.  A place where I can't run away so easily and where the
mind is quiet enough to maybe see fear more directly.  I'm sure other
people have other ways.  Is it possible to go even deeper and see the root
cause of this fear even more directly?

"Sure, you can have your "innocence" back. But you gotta take the stupidity that
goes with it, too - and very likely go through *all* the "trouble" that got you
right to where you are now, again!"

Joe, there's a difference between stupidity and ignorance.  Ignorance is not
knowing.  Stupidity is not knowing and not caring or wanting to learn. 

I've grown a lot over the past N years...  But sometimes I wish that I could go
back.  But perhaps what I really wish is that my ignorance had been treated a
bit more gentler.  Ignorance is no excuse, but it is no crime either. Everyone
was ignorant some time before they learned.  There is nothing wrong with
ignorance_wanting_to_learn.  I was ignorant, but I wanted to learn, but there
was no one to teach me.

Jim.

Perhaps the following will get accross what I wish to say...

 

     My Heart Is Full
       Jim Baranski
        1986.0400



My Heart once was empty,
yearning to be filled,
naively waiting for someone
to teach my Heart to love.

But nobody wanted an empty heart,
no one wanted innocence,
wonder at the newness of love.
No one wanted to fill my Heart,
and have their love returned.

Everyone wanted the polish and style
of an experienced, callous lover.
No one wanted me to learn
how to love from them.

So I decided to love
each person I met regardless
of who they were, 
what they were,
or what they did.

In this way I was able to love,
which my Heart yearned for.

I met many people,
and loved them each in turn,
for each of them there was
a place in my Heart,
a place once their's, forever.

Everyone has value,
everyone needs love,
but everyone wanted only so much,
and I had so much more to give.

I knew each of them,
ignored their faults and failings,
cherished what was good,
and reflected their good back to them.

Many are the stars that shine in my Heart,
and some of them shine very bright.
None loved me, as I loved them,
perhaps true, it's impossible,
like stars they are far, though bright.

Now my heart is Full
of ghosts and memories,
and my love for each of them.
Where are they now,
all my loves,
do they think of me,
as I think of them?

My love for them keeps them in my heart.
There is no room for the passion of a new love.

I still live,
and I still love,
but there is no room,
for the passion of loving and being loved
in my Heart.

But still my Heart is empty of love to be lived.
My Heart still yearns to be filled.

         Innocence...
         
         To me...it is a state that I occupied several centuries
         ago in which not only did I *perceive* things in
         simplistic and causative manner, but that I *acted*
         in simple and casuative ways.
         
         When I was innocent, I knew people would love me
         because I loved them; and I knew things would work
         out because I was trying so hard; and I knew my lover
         would not leave me because I would not leave him.
         
         It was a time of *expectations* based on performance.
         "If I am *this* good, everything will be
         allright...*because* I am that good." Unfortunately,
         the corollary thought accompanies innocence..."If
         I mess up *that* bad....it will all fall apart,
         *because* I am that bad.
         
         Well, I am forced to admit that mode of operation
         was a grand failure. 'Seems things work out better
         if *I* am only responsible for *me*....and my feelings.
         And if I do not innocently *expect* the world and
         its occupants to fit in with my scheme of events.
         [No matter how *perect* they truly are...{grin}]
         
         So, I am no longer innocent....I am rather worldly
         and cynical...[do not read information not presented
         in those two words....I am not jaded or pessimistic,
         just *realistic*]...yet...
         
         Now, when friendship works...it is so very special
         instead of *expected*; and when love works it is
         *moving* instead of *expected*; when things work,
         it is *exhillerating* instead of *expected*...
         
         Go back? Why? Envy someone their innocence? Rather
         regret their dependence upon others for well-being.
         My son has a right to his innocence...*I* as a parent
         am responsible for his well-being and he is secure
         in *expecting* it....When he grows to man-hood, I
         hope to have provided him with opportunity to shed
         that innocence and stand alone until he chooses to
         stand beside someone.
         
         Melinda
                                                         

    I know what you mean.  I do miss my innocence, the ease and comfort
    with which I moved through a new and wondrous world...I mourn its
    loss as I acquire experience, but I do not wish to have to make
    the same mistakes over again (mistakes caused by innocence, often
    painful).  If I could look upon the world as a child in a playground,
    and still have all my mental and emotional faculties, I think tht
    would be the best of all possible worlds...

    -Jody    
    
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    Yesterdays
    
    The days of sunshine and laughter
    When life was as simple as dreams are complex
    When joy was at your fingertips, if you'd just
    Stretch out your arm and open your hand
    And your heart...
    
    When love was a smile or a touch away
    When the wind's every caressing movement
    On a lonely seashore could make you weep
    And sunsets so heartbreaking could hold you
    Motionless - in their spell
    And the secrets I could never tell...
    
    And fighting invisible giants in the meadow
    Creations of overactive imaginations
    Vanquishing foes and celebrating victories
    And running through fields of four-leaf-clovers
    Winning all the time and wanting only to be loved...
    
    But those days
                        are
                                  gone...
    
    Like the dreams you can't quite remember
    and the feelings you can't pin down
    Gone like leaves of a long-lost November
    Of fiery-orange, and fragile brown...
    
   	jb - 1983
     

    Innoncence?
      In many ways I feel mentally older than my physical years and
    in other ways I feel mentally younger than my physical age. 
     Things have happened in the past to cause some part of me to grow
    older and smarter and other ways I have maintained some youth.
    I do miss my innoncence but I try to face each day as a new beginning.
    I remeber those who have hurt me and those who have problems as
    their own and pray for someone to help them.
    I rememer those who have a smile and a kind word for me and I always
    try to give one back no matter how hard I hurt.
      In all of myyears that are about to change,  I still Say someday,
    somehow I will grow-up. but in the meantime it's fun playing.
    
    

    
    	re .5 Jim;
    
    Thanks for clarifying the difference between ignorance and stupidity;
    admittedly, it was a hasty choice of word.
    
    Shall I propose my theory of Autonormalization of personal experience?
    Nah, it's too arguable; there are too many exceptions, and I have the
    feeling people wouldnt like hearing it anyway. It's kinda like making
    a relative comparison; grass is greener on the other side, etc.
    
    What it would say, however, is that even if you got a second chance,
    and were actually treated "more gently" in terms of your experiences,
    you might still feel the same way today as you already do, anyway.
    
    My idea hinges greatly off the idea that your perception and beliefs
    about yourself are just as effective on how you feel, as what actually
    is or was in terms of personal experience.
    
    As one would guess, terrible experiences in the past can effect
    one's self perception in negative ways. If you look for it, you'll
    find that (within a reasonable range) it's really not a direct
    relationship between the atrocity level and how badly one feels
    about it.
    
    In other words, Person "A" feels just as bad about what has happened
    to them as Person "B" - even though it's objectively clear that
    Person "A" had it easier, or an easier time of it, than Person "B".
    
    Thus, within a reasonable range of experience, the experience is 
    "normalized" to fit a person perceptions and feelings. Your particular
    "hell" feels no better to you than someone else's particular "hell"
    does to them - even though the actual experiences leading to the
    feeling are perhaps beyond comparison.
    
    Therefore, extending this idea to a second chance at perhaps an
    easier time of it, my claim is that there'd be no resultant difference
    in the final outcome. You'd just automatically scale "the lesser" to
    fit the same range of feeling anyway, and perhaps end up in the exact same 
    "space" you're in today!
    
    Perhaps it just seems that "there's no room left"!
    
    	Joe Jas
    
    
    

"What it would say, however, is that even if you got a second chance, and were
actually treated "more gently" in terms of your experiences, you might still
feel the same way today as you already do, anyway."

I doubt it.  I can tell the difference between people who treat ignorance as a
crime, and those who treat ignorance with compassion.  That I am who I am is to
the credit of those in my life who were compassionate.   If there had been more
of the latter and less of the former, I am sure that my life would have been
much different.  Sure, I would have had my ups and downs, but it would have been
much different.  I'd rather not get into the personal hows or whys right here
and now.

Jim. 
    

    I recognize that people have an impact on our lives.  But we allow
    that.  To claim innocence of the world is our error not the error
    of others.
    
    We make choices based on what we know and what we choose to ignore.
    
    I have credit cards...I know that I have to repay whatever debt
    I incur with those cards.  I have chosen to use them beyond my ability
    to repay the debt easily.  Who is at fault?  My inexperience with
    credit cards or the companies that issued the cards and have far
    greater experience then I.
    
    I would like to think in losing our innocence we gain maturity and
    understanding.  Although it was a great time...there is far more
    enjoyment in realizing the control we have in our destiny and
    exercising that control.
    
    

I think it's interesting the way differnt people have responded to the word
"innocence".  Some people seem to immediately translate it into ignorance or
stupidity.  Other people seem to have a good grasp of what I'm talking about.  

I think the difference lies in the differences between us in how we think of
ourselves in the past and how we think of ourselves now.  All I know is that I
had something then that I miss not having now;  other people don't miss what
they had then, and enjoy what they have now.  

We may not have had all the same things in the past, and we may not have all the
same things now. We are different from each other.  And I think that explains
our different reactions to "innocence".

But, really...  I think there are real differences between "innocence",
"ignorance", and "stupidity".  You may think of your past as being "stupidity",
but I think of mine as being mostly "innocence", although I realize that I was
ignorant of a great many things in life...

Innocent:  Uncorrupted by evil or wrongdoing; pure.  Not guilty of a crime.
           Harmless.  Not experienced or worldy; naive.  Without deception or 
           guile. AHD

Naive:     Lacking worldliness and sophistication; artless; ingenuous. AHD

Ingenuous: Without sophistication; artless; innocent.  Open or honest; frank;
           candid. AHD

These definitions do not quite imply "ignorance" in the sense on "ignore", and
certainly not "stupidity" to me.

Jim. 

    	As one who is just now beginning to shed the naivete of
    inexperience, I have mixed feelings. 
    
    	Yes, in a way, it was nice to expect the best in all people,
    to be idealistic in my expectations, BUT ... the hurt such naivete
    caused me to expose myself to sort of takes away from the joy. In
    order to survive, naivete must be made a thing of the past, as my
    therapist has stated - it's time for me to grow up emotionally.
    
    	Growing up does have some advantages to look forward to, and
    yes - I can understand the base noter's sense of losing something.
    
    	The nature of the world we live in is such that naivete and
    innocent idealism set one up to be disappointed, to be hurt, to
    be used and manipulated by others.
    
    	I don't want to lose the idealism, the optimism, yet if I don't
    replace it with worldliness and wisdom based upon reality, I will
    never be the man I am meant to be.
    
    	Guy B.
    
    

        
    Guy,
        
    Why must you lose your idealism and optimism???  Personally, I think
    these qualiteis help *some* of us get through the rough times.  Without
    ideals and dreams and hopes, what is the point of living?
        
    I don't consider myself naive but yet, I do like to trust people
    for the most part.  Do I get hurt??  You betcha but what is the
    alternative?  To be a skeptic and a cynic?  To distrust everyone?
        
    The term "innocent" seems to have a negative connotation and that
    is a shame.  If you stop to think about it, how many cynics
    attract friends?  Seriously, if you were a party and you saw two
    people standing alone...you talk to both of them concerning the future
    of the American Society...the first one talked of the society with
    optimism and hope....the second spoke cynically of the wrongs.  With 
    which person would you care to spend more time?                
                                                                   
    Perhaps this sounds crazy but IMHO it is the optimists who motivate
    people and instill confidence, trust, and loyalty in others.
                                                                   
    Ok Ok OK!  I'll quit rambling (I know - it took me long enough to
    realize this).  I hope everyone will have a great weekend and just
    remember:  Not every DECcie has a holiday on Monday...for those
    who do - ENJOY!                          
                                             
    Kris                                     
                                             
                                      
                       
    
      
    

    
    "All I know is that I had something then that I miss not having now;
    other people don't miss what they had then, and enjoy what they have
    now".
    
    	While straightening out the definitions is good to point out,
    I find the above matter of self perception far more interesting. Is 
    this the same as the "half full - half empty" perceptive argument?
    
    	Do we all have some kinda "battery" that runs down with time
    and experience, or what? Or is this whole idea merely a construct
    of the mind itself; a matter of perception_driving_attitude?
    
    	I mean, I could look in the mirror - "see all the lines in 
    my face getting clearer" and look at it in terms of "loss" like the
    song suggests; let that drive my attitude for today: Uh - I've lost
    in my life - wish I had it back - I'm not as "cute" as I once was
    - dont have "as much" to offer/attract someone...And down down it spirals
    and will take *you* - let alone your "attitude" - to the bottom if you 
    let it...                                                        
    
    	Joe Jas 

    I think I have a grasp on what Jim is saying. But how does one deal
    with a person with this attitude - the detachement, insecurity and 
    the inability to let one more person into your heart? If you're aware
    of these protective defenses, what advice can you offer... how does
    the next person get through to you? 
    
    I suspect there are no definitive answers to this question, but
    as long as you can risk your heart, just one more time it may be
    worth while. The person that inherits this awesome task will need
    to be understanding, loving and above all patient.
 
    Maybe a little innocence would help them...
    
    Gail

"Uh - I've lost in my life - wish I had it back - I'm not as "cute" as I once
was - dont have "as much" to offer/attract someone...And down down it spirals
and will take *you* - let alone your "attitude" - to the bottom if you let it.."

That might be true, *if* I thought that 'innocence' were not retainable or
recoverable.  The losses you talk about are inevitable losses from aging or
whatever.  I do not feel that a loss of 'innocence' is inevitable, and I want it
back, so why should I feel complacent about having lost it? 

Jim. 

    
    	If innocence therfore is recoverable, then it's just a matter
    of time until you either get it back, or feel like you've got it
    back. You may be complacent in just knowing it's simply a matter
    of time. Perhaps you can say "I'm anxious to feel innocent again".
    
    	Joe Jas

As there is life after death, there can be innocence after pain...

Birth and Life and then death are all a part of the cycles of nature, and
the cycle doesn't stop at death, but begins anew at birth again.

"The answer is not in getting & keeping,
     but in receiving & giving.

 The answer is not in saving & preversing,
     but in growing and changing.

 The answer is not in making things stop,
     but in making things go.

 The answer is not in covering & hiding,
     but in touching & sharing.

 The answer is not in thinking,
     but in feeling.

 The answer is not death,
     but love.

 Not death, but life."

Jim.

    Excellent topic.
    
    I too, am mourning my lost innocence - that which I has just a couple
    of years ago.  A lot has happened to me since then, to the point that a
    few times I've just felt like giving up.  Fortunately, a few loving
    people have prevented me from letting myself just give up on life.  I'm
    only 26, but most of the time I feel more like 62.  At the same time,
    I've done a lot of growing in the past 2 years or so, and I don't want
    to give that up, either. 
    
    What I want is to re-discover the innocence I once had, and at the same
    time, hold on to the growth.  Can this be done?  I don't know. I do
    know that I'm through wasting my life on things that don't really
    matter to me. 
    
    Elizabeth

Ahh... Finally, a glimmer of insight... Thank you, .21!

Everyone else (I think?) feels that lost innocence can be retrieved, 
like a personal attribute that has been lost. Most even think this 
is desirable. .21 questions this.

Innocence is not an attribute. It is the LACK OF knowledge and 
understanding, which we acquire as we grow older and accumulate 
experience.

The young man buys a bridge and imagines he'll grow rich as a 
maharajah. Guess how long will his dream survive.

The 17 year old girl listens to the young man's protestations and is
convinced his love and devotion will endure forever. Her older (and
wiser) sister knows --as she listens to the same words-- that
there's a good chance all he wants is to get in her pants.

.21's questioning:

>	What I want is to re-discover the innocence I once had, and
>	at the same time, hold on to the growth. Can this be done? 
>	I don't know.

is well founded. The answer is negative (as she probably already
knows). If you hold on to your growth (and maybe, to the potential 
to go further), you will never be innocent again. The question is, 
should you? What did losing you innocence cost you? Would you like
to pay the price again and again? And, again?

I hope you will retain your strength and integrity. I suspect that
longing for innocence is the last tremour of immaturity. I hope it
will eventually go away. 

Oh, yes, there are always the platitudes expressed in .20. They all
sound great, if slightly immaterial - not to say irrelevant. I wish
I hadn't lost my innocence so long ago - I would have been touched.

-- Ron

    welllll, 
    if 'innocence' means untouched by evil or hardship, for me it's
    long-gone and past recovery.  All a part of living and all that.
    
    if 'innocence' is defined by the list in .20, then I guess
    I never really _did_ lose it. [however, I did misplace it in the
    clutter once or twice...]
    
    if one can be innocent and a cynic, innocent and a pragmatist, innocent
    and a fatalist ... I guess that's me.  Although 'innocent' is not
    the first word that comes to mind when asked to describe myself.
    
    I really do expect that people will love me, but I don't count upon
    it.  Not all of them do.
       
         Ann

"Innocence is not an attribute. It is the LACK OF knowledge and understanding,
which we acquire as we grow older and accumulate experience."

What you describe is ignorance, not innocence.

The other situations you describe of believe a con are also not what I would
call "innocence". 

Jim.

    Re .22 (Ron)
    
    I really don't think I have to give up my growth to get the parts
    of innocence that I want back.  I still think I can have the growth
    and the innocence.  I want some of the wonder of life back!  I want
    to be able to trust someone or something again.
    
    Elizabeth

    	I think there's a distinction here between ignorance and innocence
    when used in this context.  Yes, as we live and grow we become more
    aware of things in the world around us.  We *learn*.  To me, this is a
    never ending process that I never want to stop.


    	On the other hand, innocence as used here (to me anyway) means
    being able to see the wonder of a sunset.  The ability to trust a
    person you don't know.  It means being able to act like a little kid at
    times just because you want to!  Just because you may know what makes
    something happen, that doesn't mean you can't look at it with
    "innocent" eyes.  And just because you've been hurt by people in the
    past, that doesn't mean you shouldn't trust someone in the future.
    I know at times it can be difficult to retain this quality, but it sure
    makes life more fun and enjoyable if you can!


    Brian

RE: .24, .25, .26: 

I think we have a semantics problem here.

Jim (.24) says that "What you describe is ignorance, not
innocence.". I disagree. I do agree with Brian (.26) that
'innocence' DOES NOT equate with 'ignorance'. I DO equate it with
child-like naivete and simple mindedness (Brian says: "The ability
to trust a person you don't know"). To me, being innocent is not
opposed to being smart; it's opposed to being cynical. 

It follows that we 'lose our innocence' not because we have gained
knowledge, but because we have gained experience in this 'dog eat
dog' world. This is as inevitable as death, following life,
following birth. Burying one's head in the sand will not make it
change. 

If Elizabeth thinks that "I really don't think I have to give up my
growth to get the parts of innocence that I want back.", then I
misunderstood her previous comments and take my compliment back :-).
And, if she "still think I can have the growth and the innocence"
all I can do is wish her good luck.

But, I truly do not believe that having laboured through a growth
process (and please don't try to tell me otherwise: it **can** be
painful), she is going to attain "some of the wonder of life back!".

Personally, I don't think it is as great a loss as it's cracked up
to be... 

-- Ron 

    You don't want "innocence".
    
    You want "that sense of wonder".
    
    						Ann B.

    My vote goes for once lost, innocence can't be regained.
    
    But it can be relived -- through the "sense of wonder" (thanks,
    Ann B.) expressed so wholeheartedly by children.
    
    I get mine vicariously these days.
    
    Karen

This sense of wonder is interesting.  I find the answer quite simple:
throw away all preconceived ideas about how things are and stop
worrying about the past and future so much.  The implementation
appears to be a bit harder ;-).

john

    If you're wanting to recover your sense of wonder, there are exercises
    you can do to help you. Here's a few, but note that they're all
    potentially embarrassing. If you want to regain a piece of your
    childhood you have to risk people thinking you're a bit odd.
    
    	Jon
    
    (1) When you go from place to place at work, don't walk -- run. Better
    yet, skip.
    
    (2) Invent an imaginary playmate and start talking to it.
    
    (3) Get someone else (like your SO) to invent an imaginary playmate,
    and have your playmate talk to their playmate.
    
    (4) Go to the grocery store, and buy something that you've never eaten
    before. Base your decision on the picture on the package. Or that
    someone else has it in their cart. Preferably both. When you get out to
    the car, fish it out of your bags, open the container, and take one
    bite. If you don't like it, throw the rest away.
    
    (5) Buy an album because it has a single you like. Listen to the whole
    thing five times in a row before deciding whether you like it or not.
    
    (6) If you have a cat, get down on all fours and start stalking it.
    
    (7) Stay up late watching MTV and eating Hershey's kisses. See how
    large a foil ball you can make.
    
    (8) If you have a cat (which I do), the next time it stares into space
    at nothing in particular, sidle up to it and look around for whatever's
    so interesting. Take at least ten minutes before giving up. If the cat
    walks away, try suggestion 6.
    
    (9) Eat with your hands. Squeeze your food.
    
    (10) Go to a toy store (like The Nature Company or The Sharper Image)
    and play with things.

Hey, Jon, those are great!

I do a fair amount of like things, so I guess that I'm not as bad off as
I thought I was... :-)  At least I remember what innocence is, and that it's
possible to get back, which is one of the prerequisites...

Jim.

    Jon,
    
    If I already do most if that stuff do I have a problem?
    
    Bonnie

    re: .31
    
    (1) already do that.  various co-workers wish i wouldn't when i
    am with them.
    
    (2) do role-playing games count?
    
    (3) same as above.
    
    (4) no.  based on the picture, i make faces, a la Calvin&Hobbes
    
    (5) already do that.
    
    (6) cats, dogs, ferrets, guinea pigs, rabbits.......
    
    (7) EmpTY?  yuck!  do watch multiple rental movies though.....
    
    (8) babies are good for this too.  and SO's who are gazing off into
    space.  but 10 minutes is not enough, never give up.
    
    (9) trying to cut back on this, no, really.  
    
    (10)....and then don't forget to buy one or two items for your office.
    
    
    okay, so like some previous replies (.32, .33) said, i already do
    this.  what next?  (actually, i'm not worried, because i know that
    i still have that sense of wonder.)
    
    jonathan
    

    A few additions from my notebook:
        
     - go out to a pond [or park] and sit _very_ still. empty your mind
       just feel and watch _passively_ until the ducks and woodchucks
       come and settle down with you.
    
     - drop one leaf at a time into a moving stream and make bets on
       which channel each will follow
    
    - take a few moments and really _look_ at a cat or your hand or a child
      or a lizard...  A **four-star** way of regaining 'wonder' is to think a
      moment and know with your self, and not your intellect, that these
      improbable things are _alive_ and _aware_.
    
    
    Then, of course, there are the less contemplative avenues such as
    re-reading 'Charlotte's Web' aloud to yourself and seeing what sort
    of castle you can build out of the sunday Globe when you've read
    as much as you can stand...
      Ann
      

    Bonnie, I'd hardly say you have a problem. Rather, that you have a
    solution. I mentioned that if you do these things people are liable to
    think you a bit odd. But that's only fair warning, and it's not your
    problem, but theirs. I've always thought that if I'm worried about what
    people think, I'm not going to have time to wonder.
    
    I thought of another one last night. Carry odd things in your pockets.
    In my pocket I have: A 50-cent piece that I only use for practicing
    palming things. Every couple months, someone offers to free me of the
    annoyance, and I decline. A Singapore dollar. A Hong Kong dollar. A
    50-yen piece. A polished piece of hematite. All the coins make my
    change clink funny -- which is really nice and always different, and it
    makes me *notice* what I'm doing when I give someone change.
    
    Do role-playing games count? You tell me.
    
    	Jon

        (1) When you go from place to place at work, don't walk -- run. Better
    yet, skip.
    
    	My old knees won't handle much running or skipping, at least
    	not until I lose all of those pounds I put on during my 
    	marriage.
    
    (2) Invent an imaginary playmate and start talking to it.
    
    	I do this.  Have you met Harriet?
    
    (3) Get someone else (like your SO) to invent an imaginary playmate,
    and have your playmate talk to their playmate.
    
    	This one too. (See #2)
    
    (4) Go to the grocery store, and buy something that you've never eaten
    before. Base your decision on the picture on the package. Or that
    someone else has it in their cart. Preferably both. When you get out to
    the car, fish it out of your bags, open the container, and take one
    bite. If you don't like it, throw the rest away.
    
    	Once in awhile.
    
    (5) Buy an album because it has a single you like. Listen to the whole
    thing five times in a row before deciding whether you like it or not.
    
    	I've done this every so often.
    
    (6) If you have a cat, get down on all fours and start stalking it.
    
    	Definitely.  Also, if the cat is still a kitten, grab it and
    	hold it down lightly, and tickle its belly.  Let it bite and
    	scratch you, until it tries to get away.  Then stalk it.
    
    (7) Stay up late watching MTV and eating Hershey's kisses. See how
    large a foil ball you can make.
    
    	I hate EmTyV.
    
    (8) If you have a cat (which I do), the next time it stares into space
    at nothing in particular, sidle up to it and look around for whatever's
    so interesting. Take at least ten minutes before giving up. If the cat
    walks away, try suggestion 6.
    
    	Absolutely.
    
    (9) Eat with your hands. Squeeze your food.
    
    	Occasionally, when home alone.
    
    (10) Go to a toy store (like The Nature Company or The Sharper Image)
    and play with things.
    
    	People think you very peculiar on this one, unless you can borrow
    	a child to take with you.


    7 out of 10 ain't bad.  And people who know me already *know* that
    I'm a bit odd...
    
    A few more suggestions.  Get some stuffed animals.  Give them names.
    Talk to them.  Let them talk back.  Take a bubble bath.  Use half
    the bottle.  Play with the bubbles.  Eat food in strange combinations.
    Read some children's books.  Better, get someone to read them to
    you.
    
    Maybe I haven't lost as much as I thought.  And Ron, without knowing
    what aspects of innocence I've lost, I don't think you can say that
    I can't have it all.
    
    Elizabeth
        

    Today I left the office of one coworker and went to the office of
    another coworker.  She gave me this amused look and asked, "Galloping?"
    
    Who, me?  I'm a professional.  Really!

    The great benefit of grandchildren is they are abundant with innocence
    and allow you to do all these wonderful things....like skip...talk
    silly (my favorite)....jump rope...and you haven't lived until you
    have had a conversation with Puppet Puppy on the phone.
    
    I don't know how I managed without J & J those years between their
    Mother's innocence and theirs were long.
    
    BTW it is okay for a 50 year old woman to be buried in the sand
    if it is done by a 4 and 7 year old.  Isn't it?

    	Whenever I'm in a hurry, I always skip rather than run.  It makes
    	me feel so much happier!
    
    							Carla
    

Galloping is a special gait...  I know why horses like to run so much!

Here's a couple of more suggestions...

Read "Godbody" or anything else by Ted Stergeon. (sp).  

Sing along with a couple of kids to a cassette full of kid's song...  Old
Macdonald, Here we go loop de loo & all that...

Test to see if you are still innocent (a kid) at heart.  Take an Oreo cookie,
and try to pull the chocolate outsides apart such that the creme center goes all
on one side or the other.  If you can still do that, you're still a kid. If
not... well you better start working on it... 

Jim. 

    	That's Ted Sturgeon.
    
    	I think everyone alive should read "Godbody", more than once.
    
    							Carla
    

    Are you people serious?  Do you really believe that by acting childish
    you can recapture "the lost innocence of childhood"?  There is a
    distinct difference between not taking yourself and your life seriously
    enough to destroy any sense of wonder you may have had and acting like
    a goof. 
    
    Why do I get the impression that people aren't happy with what they
    know? As if knowledge and experience are like excess baggage they have
    to carry through the airport of their lives.  (Talk about profound
    metaphors)  I don't understand.  The only thing I miss is the excuse,
    "He's a kid.  He doesn't know any better."

    If your child-like sense of wonder has left you, it should have been
    replaced with an adult sense of wonder.  If it hasn't then it hasn't.
    I feel sorry for you. 

    Personally, I'm more in awe of the universe now than I ever could have
    been at four years old.  Anybody who thinks that the magic in the world
    vanishes when you discover there is no Santa Claus and that the Easter
    Bunny is a marketing ploy directed at selling candy has not stopped to
    ponder the wonder and magic of their own existence.  They've never
    considered the wonder in the dual nature of light; the fact that matter
    hangs together somehow; the magic of evolution; Bach; the order
    expressed in the Pythagorean theorem; the chaos expressed in
    Heisenberg's uncertainty principle; the order and chaos expressed in
    Picasso's Guernica; a termite. 

    Your happiness with life and the "innocence" with which you approach
    any situation is governed by your attitude not by your actions. 

    Agree with me.  Disagree with me.  Correct my grammar.  But I calls 'em
    as I sees 'em. 

    Kris 
    

    re: .43
    
    > If your child-like sense of wonder has left you, it should have been
    > replaced with an adult sense of wonder."
    
    "Should"?  Why?  
    
    > Personally, I'm more in awe of the universe now than I ever could have
    > been at four years old.  
    
    Personally I agree with you, but when you say,
    
    > Anybody who thinks that the magic in the world vanishes when you 
    > discover there is no Santa Claus. . .has not stopped to ponder the 
    > wonder and magic of their own existence.  They've never considered 
    > the wonder in the dual nature of light; the fact that matter hangs 
    > together somehow; the magic of evolution; Bach; the order expressed 
    > in the Pythagorean theorem; the chaos expressed in Heisenberg's 
    > uncertainty principle; the order and chaos expressed in Picasso's 
    > Guernica; a termite. 
    
    I have to disagree.  Perhaps some people have considered, pondered,
    and thought over all these things and more and have simply reached
    a different conclusion than you and I.  And, for them, that conclusion
    is both valid and painful.  I think that at the core of some people's
    conclusions are experiences which have shattered their faith in
    their fellow humans.  I believe that restoring such faith is possible
    but the path is not an easy one.
    
    > Your happiness with life and the "innocence" with which you approach
    > any situation is governed by your attitude not by your actions. 
    
    Agreed, but I think what some folks are suggesting is that by
    practicing certain actions, we can re-establish an attitude of wonder.
    I think this is even implicit in your words, Kris, for one way to
    interpret your reply is to read it as a suggestion to "ponder",
    "consider", and "wonder".
    
    And, while there may indeed (operative word = "may") be a 
    ". . .distinct difference between not taking yourself. . .seriously
    . . .and acting like a goof", those who know me will attest that
    this alleged distinction can be a very fuzzy one. . .
    
    Steve

    Many good points, Steve.  I didn't mean to imply that "acting like
    a goof" and "not taking yourself seriously" are mutually exclusive
    activities, though.  I was stating that one does not imply the other.
    
    > I think that at the core of some people's conclusions are experiences
    > which have shattered their faith in their fellow humans.
    
    But why does this cause people to reject what they know and yearn
    for naivet�.  No one ever promised anyone that their fellow humans
    would not be without fault.  I could see an experience which shattered
    faith in themselves as being reason for being in shell shock with
    the world.  But I don't think many people have experienced self
    devastation of this magnitude unless it was in their own mind.
    
    But then again, maybe I'm just naive.
    
    Kris

You have to read Godbody more then once...  it's overwhelming the first time...

Then I went back and read the collection of his stories in 'Golden Helix'...
I had to take a break to calm down after each short story!

Childish?  I prefer Childlike, myself! :-)

'why do we think acting childlike will restore our innocence?'

Maybe it helps us remember how we looked at the world when we were innocent. It
helps me a *lot* to play with my 2 & 4 year old sons or watch them and remember
what it was like to be a child.

'an adult innocence vs. a childish innocence'

I don't think that there is any difference between the two.  The wonder at
the inside of an oreo is the same wonder at the wave/particle nature of light.

I don't miss not knowing intellectually that there is no Santa Claus or Easter
Bunny.

What is the innocence that I am talking about?  It's being optimistic.  It's
knowing that eventually things will work out.  It's knowing that even if you
don't have what you want now, you can work for it, and can get it if it is
important to you.  It's knowing that you are a good person and that (some)
people value you, and that if the rest of the people really *knew* you, they
would like you too. It's assuming people good until proven bad...  It's knowing
that there are still an infinite number of things to do, places to be, people to
know, to enjoy and experience, rather then getting bogged down in paying the
mortgage and being too busy to stop and smell the roses and being complacent. 

I don't expect or want to believe that humans are without a fault...

Everyone is naive in some way...

Jim.

    
    re: 45...kris...
    i don't think you are naive...
    and, though steve made some fine "moderation points"....i agreed
    with your earlier comments (and with steve's logically moderated
    points) and thought you had stated them quite well....
    
    i think some of the earlier comments by people "suggesting?"
    a desire for a return to the lost innocence of youth were a little
    on the naive side....
    
    being a kid was fine when i was kid but...had i the choice to revert
    back to any age...it would be younger than 40 and older than 25.
    
    i don't want  to be innocent...
    i want to KNOW!...i want to understand and grow.....
    i want to be free and unencumbered by either youthful innocence
    or youthful restrictions;
    	be in by 9 go to bed by 9:30 that's all you get for an allowance
    no you can't have a beer and you can't have sex and .....
    
    i can still clearly remember the days that i lost certain youthful
    innocences;
    	i don't have to get married!
    	america isn't so damn great...
    	i can be happy without being in love!
    	of the people, by the people, for the people is a joke!
    	many people are still being exploited!
    	my vote is meaningless!
    
    i'm GLAD i lost  those innocences....i'm glad i've grown to a
    point that i can see these things, deal with them, openly
    and honestly without deluding myself....
    
    

    	In this past Sunday's paper, the strip "Family Circus" had a
    cartoon which I thought very appropriate to this note.  It showed the
    mother and father watching TV, and the host of some show was saying
    something along the lines of:


    	"How to live your life to be happy, healthy, and carefree"...


    	Meanwhile, the children were outside playing, running around,
    laying in the grass looking up at the sky, etc.  All of them with great
    big grins on their faces!


    	It's funny when we adults need a course or something to learn how
    to be what we were naturally when we were children, isn't it?  I guess
    it's like Bill Cosby says:  "Intellectuals are people who go to school
    to learn how to do what other people do naturally"!  ;-)


    Brian