Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    
    
    Well, i've got no problem with an intelligent lady, but the success
    bit is a little different.  being "successful" seems to take an
    awful lot of time these days.  i've been out with several woman,
    had a nice time on the first date, and then ask them out for a
    second date, and get, "Yeah lets do that, BUT, i have classes on
    tuesday, thursday, and friday, business meetings monday, wednesday,
    and all day saturday and i usually take sunday afternoons to 
    prepare for the upcoming week."  and i say, "fine, how about a
    month from this sunday from 10 - 11:30 in the morning."
    
    of course this goes both ways (male and female).
    so, basically i'd say, i like an intelligent woman (though i 
    rank heart and soul above intelligence) and i guess i am 
    kinda intimidated by success because it usually entails
    spending 95% of your time trying to be successful (and sleeping)
    and 5% on any relationship one might be in.
    
    Bob
    

    It's always easier to get along with someone if they are equal to
    you but I have no problem with women/girls who are more successful then
    me.  I don't like women/girls (or anyone for that matter) who makes
    a point of pointing out how more successful they are.
    
    The Rebel. 

>       Men, are you intimidate or uncomfortable with women who are very
>            intelligent, and successful?



	Absolutely not!  In fact, I almost *require* it.  I consider myself
an intelligent person as well, and like to be able to converse on a variety
of topics.  I've found that intelligent people can do that, even if it isn't
their specialty.  Of course, I *do* love to talk!  ;-)  No, I really wouldn't
care if she was *much* smarter than I.


	I've dated women who were as equally successful as I, and it never
bothered me.  And I don't think it would bother me if she was more succes-
sful than I.  It's just not that important.  What's *really* important is
how much fun she is to be around, her personality, her values and beliefs.
I believe that so strongly, that often I am able to ignore a person's im-
perfections (after all, we *all* have them) that might otherwise bother me
if those important things are there.  It's learning to be flexible and see
the other person's point of view.  It's caring about the person as they are,
not as you want them to be.


	It really depends on what's important to *you*.


Brian

>       Women, do you find that the men you know get intimidated or
>            uncomfortable with you if you appear very intelligent and
>            successful to them?

	 I tend to never say I'm an engineer until I have to, but
	 that's because I don't really think about it because it
	 doesn't matter to me. 

	 The observation that I have made when I meet men is that men
	 fall into two distinct catagories:

	 1)  The man that is looking to have someone to do fun things
	     with and someone to just date.  

	 2)  The man that is looking for someone to care about,
	     something more meaningful than dating.

	 Of the men that I have met that fall into the first category,
	 just about every single one of them are immediately turned
	 off by the fact that I am a successful professional.

	 Of the men I have met in the second category, almost every
	 single one of them likes the fact that I am a successful
	 professional.

	 Of course, there are exceptions. 8^)  The biggest exception
	 perhaps being the men that I have met within DEC--men in DEC
	 seem to wish to just have fun/date, but don't seem to be
	 turned off by intelligence and success.

	 IMO, of course.

	 kath	 

.0>       Women, do you find that the men you know get intimidated or
.0>            uncomfortable with you if you appear very intelligent and
.0>            successful to them?
    
    
    
    Professional men do not seem to turned off by it, but men who are
    what I would term blue-collar workers do.  I have found though
    that it takes a VERY mature man to deal with intelligence and a
    successful woman.  

.1>    					being "successful" seems to take an
.1>    awful lot of time these days.  
.1>    				"Yeah lets do that, BUT, i have classes on
.1>    tuesday, thursday, and friday, business meetings monday, wednesday,
.1>    and all day saturday and i usually take sunday afternoons to 
.1>    prepare for the upcoming week."  

    
    
    I find that men are JUST as busy.  I find that although I am extremely
    busy (working on a Masters, working on ice dancing, piano lessons,
    and being a single mother of two ice skaters, their music lessons,
    and all the running around with them), that *if* I *really* want
    to be with a man, _I'll_ _find_ _the_ _time_...  same with him...
    if he _really_ wanted to be with me, he'd find the time also.  If
    I don't get those signals, then I don't waste time waiting for him
    to give them to me... cuz I'm just too busy!
    

         ...on intimidation...
         
         A gentleman once told me that I was the most
         intimidating "short" person he had ever met. I replied
         that I was most likely the most intimidating *person*
         he had ever met...period.  After some thought he
         agreed.

         ---
                  
         I have never successfully initimidated:
         
         	my husband
         	*selected* male/female friends
         	my dentist
         	my son
         	assorted truck drivers...
         
         probably because they see the inherent humor in a
         4'10" bitch...AND because they are perfectly comfortable
         with their own compentancy at what they do...so MINE
         does not threaten them.
         
         On the other hand, I am terribly good at intimidating:
         
         	My mother and mother-in-law
         	Assorted ministers and priests
         	Mid-level management of all genders
         	Many aspiring young professionals
         	People who "strum" guitars
         
         probably because they have never had a humorous thought
         in their lives...AND because they are mostly
         incompetent, and therefore have good reason to fear
         MINE. 
         
         ---
         
         You know, I think, that women who are truly *formidable*
         have little problem intimidating people. They do
         it effortlessly when they want to; and do *not* do
         it just as easily when they do not wish to. It is
         a matter of communication skills. If you are *that*
         good, you don't have to worry.
         
         The rest of us, well, we sort of flail around a bit,
         and we sometimes forget that we aren't at work anymore
         and we *could* give the guy a break...I mean we don't
         have to practise our *best* drop-dead look *all*
         the time...[sigh]...and we forget it is OK to *not*
         win all the time...[bigger sigh]
         
         ---
         
         Then again...it is impossible to escape the fact
         that Mom's raised children to expect mothering and
         nurturing from "females" and decisions and management
         from males.[Uh-huh...yup...we are trying to change
         that but anybody who is 30 or more years old got
         raised reading Dick, Jane and Sally. You remember...Dick
         went to work and Jane stayed home to take care of
         Sally and Puff and Spot?]
         
         Then along comes women's rights and you plop one of those
         "females" into a business managerial/success role
         and [omigod] they are *really* good at it...what
         signals are we sending here to those poor little
         boys that we just got through raising....? In all
         honesty, it could very well be somewhat disconcerting.
         
         And even *worse* what about when Jane is *better*
         than Dick...or [hand me a razor blade Mom...] what
         about when Sally is better than Dick?
         	
         I plead guilty; I am a bra-burner from way back,
         and I have met *very* few people I could not intimidate
         with just a little effort...but, I think we
         underestimate the ingrained trauma of adult males
         when faced with a situation that assaults their
         identity. Or...the trauma when *any* person is faced
         with a similar situation.
         
         In those cases, I think we could do better at toning
         down the delivery, and preventing intimidation from
         occuring.
         
         ---
         
         Plenty enough wandering for one reply...Hmmmm?
         
         Melinda
               

    I'm not uncomfortable around someone who is intelligent, and possibly
    successful.  I have trouble dealing with a woman who has no self
    confidence and therefore believes that she isn't intelligent (whether
    or not she is).  My parents raised me (and my siblings) to believe
    in ourselves and I attribute that to much of why I prefer confident
    women to women that lack self-confidence.
    
    Rich

    Re: .7
    
    Why, Mel, you're the sweetest, kindest, most gentle woman I've
    ever had the pleasure to meet!  I can't possibly imagine anyone
    being intimidated by you.  By the way, I'd prefer that we not
    meet in a dark alley next time.... :-)
    
    
    For myself, I am attracted to successful, intelligent women, both
    as potential romantic partners and in general.  I haven't met a woman
    yet whom I found personally intimidating.  (Offensive, yes, but that's
    something else entirely.)
    
    				Steve

	It's not often that a subject prompts me to leave the
	safety of "reading"....


	When I got married at 20, I was not successful, nor was he.
	We were both intelligent and ambitious hoping and planning
	to share in our mutual success.  It sounded like a plan!

	We both worked at entry-level jobs in data processing and
	aspired to be computer operators (this was 1971, folks ;*)
	A funny thing happened.  I became a computer operator and
	continued on with college.  He joined the post office for
	more money per hour (it was only temporary, he said), didn't
	go back to college... 

	He grew stale, stopped thinking and learning...  I kept 
	learning, thinking and working my way up the ladder...
	Finally I became a programmer and finished college (took
	15 years part-time).  He has taken maybe 5 college classes
	in the last 17 years.

	I was successful and then joined DEC about 2 years ago.
	He always said he was proud of me.  He bragged about his
	successful wife to friends.  But inside he felt inferior and
	that he had wasted his life.  Eventually, his self-hatred
	made him impossible to love.  We separated and divorced
	after 17.5 years of marriage last November.


	Why all this?  I believe that there are men who seek out
	women for their talents.  Just as I seek men who are
	intelligent and self-motivated, men do the same.  I think
	men at Digital are more of an exception (based on recent
	dating) as they generally prefer a more intelligent woman.

	But the average American male is having enough problems
	coping with his own insecurities so that a successful
	woman scares the s**t out of him.  He thinks a successful
	woman will not spend time or be capable of loving him...
	aka Grace VanOwen for you LA Law fans...

	The fact is that successful people are good at what they
	do and get strokes from their work.  It's hard for a
	relationship/other person to compete, so many don't try.
	I used to blame my success for my husband's failures,
	but now I know that he owns it.

	Twenty years ago we wouldn't be having this conversation.
	It is only a recent phenomenom that we are needing to 
	deal with this issue.  This noting community is more
	enlightened than most, so it could take another generation
	to see the general population accept successful woman
	as the norm.

			Sherry

    >>>       Men, are you intimidate or uncomfortable with women who are very
            intelligent, and successful?

    
    Of the two, I'll prefer "intelligent" to the later.  Seems I often find
    myself with someone that may fit both terms.  Successful, (and I take
    it that you mean successful as in the materialistic/job/position/status
    definition, as that seems to be the common measuring stick to most
    people I know), can be problems.  Not simply because if a woman is more
    so than a man, but because what may be fun and exciting at first, may
    turn out to be a nightmare later.  The man with less success may not
    sweat it either way, but many times, the woman may grow tired of the
    situation and the excitement may wear off.  I'd bet that there are
    polls which would back me up.
    
    I'm sure that many, if not most, marriages run into problems because of
    the stiff competition between husband and wife.  That sounds sorry, but
    often, that's what it comes down to.  It's common that if one continues
    to grow successfully, as in the terms above, that person *may* feel that
    the other has not grown, and by that revelation, actually feels that
    they have "outgrown" their mate.
    
    Dwight
    
                      
    Ever hear this tune ???? -
    
    "I'm not aware of too many things, but I know what I know if you
    know what I mean." 
    

>	But the average American male is having enough problems
>	coping with his own insecurities so that a successful
>	woman scares the s**t out of him.  He thinks a successful
>	woman will not spend time or be capable of loving him...
>	aka Grace VanOwen for you LA Law fans...

    	I think that Sherry brings out a good point about insecurities.  
    Right after I graduated college and started working, my boyfriend 
    at the time was still in school.  I think he was a little 
    uncomfortable with the fact that I was now a "professional" while 
    he was still a student.  And when he graduated (also a CS major) 
    and couldn't find a job right away, it made things kind of awkward.  
    But he had some other insecurities, and I think this situation just 
    aggrevated those.

    	Since then, I've never really had a problem with this.  If
    someone wants to know what I do, I'll tell them.  If they want to
    know where I went to school, I'll tell them.  If they're
    uncomfortable with that, then I'm probably not going to be
    comfortable with them, either.  I don't believe in trying to hide
    who or what I am.  Most of the men I've met have also been
    professionals and have preferred to date someone intelligent.
    I think if you are secure with yourself, you can deal with someone
    who is perhaps more intelligent or more successful than you are.
    
    	Amy

    	For years my wife ran a day care in our house. As the business
    became better, we had fewer things to discuss other than my work
    and the kids (our own and others). We began to vegetate at the TV.
    Her day, from 7 AM til 6 PM was dominated by little folks. She even
    began talking to me like she was addressing a child.
    	When we moved to Mass. she took care of only 2 little ones and
    became a bit more active in things she was interested in and it
    made our relationship more interesting.
    	For the past year she has been employed by NE largest grocery
    chain and has rocketed into management. Things for us have never
    been better. She now deals with adults 8^) sure she does! She's
    in management and is thriving. She quit college when we married
    and is considering returning to take some business courses. (She
    double majored in Literary Criticism and Elementary Ed.) Her big
    problem is a boss who is threatened by her education, creativity,
    aggressiveness, and success. 
    	Background has a lot to do with how comfortable one feels with
    a successful woman. If you come from an area where every Monday
    every mother was home doing laundry, every Tuesday they ironed,
    Every Wednesday they had Stanley Parties, Thursday was major cleaning,
    and Friday was shopping, then a woman who isn't at home 99% of her
    time because she didn't drive is very unusual.
    	If you come from a background where mothers worked in
    semi-professional and professional positions then working and
    successful women are everyday.
    
    	Personally, I like women who are intelligent and witty. I don't
    like women or men who try to overimpress everyone they come in contact
    with, with their intellect. 
    
    Ken

    Intelligent?  Is intelligence being measured by the number of degrees
    one holds, the number of subjects one can talk about, the latest
    book one has read?
    
    Women who are successful?  Successful at *what*?  A job that pays
    well, a position in a company, that gives one the feeling and
    appearance of *being someone*.  
    
    A woman who remains at home {Stanley parties?  Oh, get off it!}
    and rears good children who grow up to be *successful professionals*
    and gets put-down by those same professionals for having done just
    that; handles the finances so as to provide college fees; etc. just
    naturally is dull, boring and unintelligent?
    
    Did any of you know that the world's foremost authority on Sparrows
    was an ordinary housewife with a bird feeder, a pair of binoculars
    and a massive amount of curiosity?  That ornithologists from all
    over the world consulted *her* about their habits, etc.?  
    
    Ellie Smeal, past president of NOW, held her first paying job when
    she became president of NOW.  Until then, she was a homemaker who
    volunteered her time, efforts, and skills to her community.
    
    Look.  I think we all congratulate ourselves too darn much about
    our professional, intelligent and marvelous selves; we have tunnel
    vision.

    What use is itelligence and professional positions and degrees up
    the ying-yang when we haven't tolerance, understanding, patience
    and the ability to understand that our assumptions about people
    we don't "think we would be interested in" might just be losing
    us an opportunity to get to know some very fine people?  And some
    of us could start with trying to get to know our parents.
    
    M
    

    	I personally have no discomfort with a woman because of her
    success in her career - perhaps because I'm satisfied with my career.
    
    	But ... working in the business community for 30 + years, I
    have observed many marriages dissolving because the wife achieves
    a level of success beyond the husband's, and his ego can't handle
    it. After all, men are conditioned to be the breadwinner, and when
    the wife brings home more bread, his self esteem takes a beaing.
    
    	Most such situations which I've witnessed - a blue collar worker
    with a happy marriage, and the wife embarking on a successful path
    after marriage. I.E. she decides to go to college evenings, and
    becomes a professional career woman, sort of outgrows the husband.
    
    	Younger men not so tied to traditional gender roles may not
    find it so difficult to live with wives who aremore successful than
    they are.
    
    	My personal opinion - Women choose your husbands carefully,
    and
    	Men - choose your wives carefully - impetuous couplings with
    no consideration of such matters seldom survive
    
    	If a man is content with his position in life, he will not fear
    his wife's growth and success, but rather he will foster it because
    love demands it. Conversely, if the man is unsatisfied with his
    position in life, his wife's growth will cause too much ego damage
    for him to handle.
    
    		Guy B.
    
    

    From a females point of view, 
     If a person is successful in their job, my hats off to them, *BUT*
    if the person is a success and continally talks above everybody
    else in the room, ie. using words that makes everybody run for the
    dictionary., then I usally can't see how smart they really are,
    for in my belief if the person is as successful as they claim to
    be, they would be able to talk on ALMOST any level.
    Exucse the rambling, if the person is successful and funloving and
    my type of person then I'd still hang around them. If the person
    is successful and always showing off  then no I wouldn't hasang
    around that person.
    
    f
    

         RE: .14
         
         I think you are reading content into the base note
         and the replies that does not exist.
         
         The base note and replies are addressing a single
         aspect of success and intelligence; and defined it
         in those terms rather narrowly. It and the replies
         are addressing the aspect of S&I that relates to women 
         *IN THE BUSINESS* world and how they relate to men...
         ONLY...
         
         It in no way even mentioned [much less compared in
         a derogatory manner] the relative "success" or
         "intelligence" of women who choose other options for 
         fulfillment.
         
         I cannot think of a single person in this notes
         conference who would choose to disagree with your
         sentiment. But we are discussing a much more restricted
         piece of the topic here.
         
         If you wish to discuss the relative worth of "career"
         choices among women [I believe home/child tending
         *is* a career]...or the relative idiocy of how we
         test and define intelligence...[smart is smart...Hmmm?]
         then I think it belongs in a Topic of its own, rather
         than critisizing the particpants in this, quite separate
         and unrelated, topic.
         
         [end_woof]
         
         Melinda

Intelligence?  Some of the worst people I know of to be around, belong to MENSA!
:-)

I think it's nice to have a intelligent, competent, successfull woman around...
helps pay some of the bills, and takes some of the pressure off me... :-)

One thing that I like is versitility.  I can have a great time talking about
a subject that I know nothing about, because I'm learning...

Jim. 

    I know someone who entered two notes in the singles notesfile
    (anonymously).  In one she described her fun-loving, vivacious,
    attractive self with no mention of job or intellectual interests.
     In the other she described the fun-loving lively attractive self
    WITH mention that she was an engineer and liked to read classical
    literature (or somesuch).  The first note got twice the response
    as the second.
    
    I would suspect that *some* men may be intimidated by intelligent
    women because they might take some "winning over", they may well
    be better at some things than the men (which some men can't deal
    with), and they may not "pay off" in the long run for those who
    seek generic "sex and fun".
    
    As for success, I sometimes feel kind of sheepish when I'm more
    successful than the guy I'm seeing, and I feel uncomfortable when it
    seems to make some of  them act out with bravado or machismo or something
    (which might not have been in evidence before they knew what I did for
    a living, or what kind of degree I had from what college).

    I'm not sure how I'd deal with someone who was unbelievably more
    successful than I was.  I don't think I'd get competitive, but I
    wouldn't want them to give me everything....I'd still want to work
    hard and be financially independent to a degree.
    
    -Jody
     

    p.s.  Sometimes I love to see the look on some men's faces when they
    find out what I do for a living, my interests, etc.  -  Blows some
    of 'em away completely.  With many I see a new kindling of respect.
    

    personally, i'm just out looking for an intelligent/successful/
    career oriented woman who needs a house husband.
    
    just like that cartoon in the boston globe: "Adam"
    
    well, i don't think he started out that way, but i aspire to be
    just like him, only maybe i will spend more time reading as i don't
    really like to watch television.
    
    in the real world for a moment...
    
    i think i am more attracted to people who are successful in what
    they try to do.  Positive Mental Attitude is a turn-on.  be that
    in school, career, home life, whatever.
    

    Well, I generally am attracted to women who appear to be really smart.
    Unfortunately, most of those that I've dated tended to get very
    boorish after awhile (sort of like the MENSA syndrome Jim mentioned
    earlier).  Either that or they were much, much too serious about
    "intellectual" things and missed the point of having fun.  Keeping in
    mind, of course, that I also know a lot of other women who are smart
    and not like this at all.
    
    As for "successful" women (or men, for that matter), its a double edged
    sword.  I went out with a women a few months ago who would be
    considered to be "successful" in that she was a product manager who
    was very well known and generally worked her buns off.  But the price
    was that she was alway's being forced to cancel things or just didn't
    have time to do anything but work.  That's fine, but you have to really
    like the person an awful lot to to put up with that.

	 RE: .14, .20

         I definately agree with .20!  Intelligence/success is an
         attitude--a positive state of mind.  You are
         intelligent/successful if you believe in who you are, what
         you believe in, and are happy in what you do--regardless of
         what it is. 

	 And I would MUCH rather date a guy who was happy being a
	 starving artist 8^) than a man who is a top-notch engineer and
	 hates his work.      

	 

	 kath

    re: .22
    
    hey kath....
    
    i'll be a starving/struggling sci-fi writer, how does that sound?
    
    

	 RE: -.1
	 
	 Sci-Fi is my favorite!    8^)

	 

    re .7
    
    why would you want to intimidate people who 'strum' guitars?
    
    

    I don't have any problem with an intelligent and successful woman,
    but with a too-busy-with-career woman.  I knew one girl, she has
    three full time jobs.  During the day she is the administrator for
    the EyeCare Center, at night she works as the editor for a local
    newspaper, on weekend she teaches French.  I have no idea when I
    can ask her out, she is always tired and needs sleep.  I feel sorry
    for her
     

    Well, I'm rather surprise with what I read so far, it seems that
    intelligent women can only be found in compagnies offices with a
    managerial title on the door of their office! To my mind that's
    totally wrong, it takes years of daily practice and a great deal
    of intelligence to prepare a good "Cassoulet" just to name one,
    who can measure the amount of psychological knowledge that an average
    woman has to use dealing with her kids, husband,....to make them
    happy.
     --Most of the intelligent women are not in office they are back home---
    
    No men will admit that he has problem with intelligent women, because
    the problem is not here, the problem is not in the relation between
    a man and a woman, the problem is in the social environement. How
    many men will easely accept to be invited in a restaurant by a
    "successfull" woman and feel confortable when she will pays the
    bill? At least in south of Europe a man in this situation may have
    to suffer the ironic smiles on the face of the other men around.
    And this is just one example.
    
      The problem of the success of a woman within a couple is, to my
    mind, irrelevant of a woman/man situation it is rather one individual
    been constantly confronted to his own failure compared to the success
    of the other, and once again the social environment enlarge his
    feeling of failure ("what a shame! How can you let your wife feed you?")   
    We may or may not like it but we will behave like our environment
    want us to behave thus a man can be very happy inside his room with
    an intelligent woman and in the mean time been very frustrated to go
    outside.
    
     The real problem is that, at least in many european country women
    have not yet the exact same position as men. But the question is
    		Should they?...  ;-)  
    jacques
    

RE: .0>
            As the person who wrote the base note, I just want to
       clarify something before to many people get the wrong
       impression.

            I did NOT mean to imply that the primary or only measure of
       intelligence and success is an Ivy League education and a
       corporate level job!  The world is full of intelligent and
       successful people who have neither.  If I offended anyone, I
       apologize.

            I just wanted to talk about a very narrow situation, and
       that is; when a woman does something which appears to the man she
       is with, and the rest of the general public, to make her very
       intelligent, and successful.  This "something" could be raising
       children or performing neuro surgery, it doesn't matter what.  All
       that matters is that, in everyone's mind, there is NO DENYING,
       she is smart and capable!  In this situation, how does the guy
       feel, does the woman see this same feeling come out?


       
RE: .27>
       > the problem is not in the relation between a man and a woman,
       > the problem is in the social environment.

            Interesting point, and it fits in with replies 10, 12, 15,
       and 19. I wonder how many men, who are uncomfortable with smart
       and capable women, would be more comfortable if there friends and
       the general public didn't know just how intelligent and
       successful this woman was?  


       Richard

    I met the woman I married at work and, inasmuch as she was my
    boss, I guess I'd have to say that I like intelligent, successful
    women.  When I first read this note, a Joni Mitchell tune called
    "I'm a Radio" popped into mind, but I have to kind of butcher
    the lyrics to make 'em fit this particular context:
    
    (with apologies to Ms. Mitchell)
    
    You know I don't like weak women 'cause I get bored too quick,
    Oh yeah I do like strong women 'cause they flick my Bic,
    Oh baby they turn me on. . .
        
    etc.
    
    Steve        
    

Then again, there is the common occurance of people, both men and women, to
choose people who are somewhat below them by some standard.  Is this the same
sort of thing that we are talking about here?

Some Women repeatedly choose men below them to 'save them', or 'fix' them. I
hypothosize theat these women would also be threatened by a mate who was better
then them by some standard.  Men don't seem to be on the saving end as much, or
I think more accurately when they are, it is not noticed as much. 

Jim.

    
    What I find interesting about this topic and in discussing it with
    other people is the mental image people have about successful men
    and women (in the business environment).  When people are discussing a 
    "successful" man, they seem to dwell on his material possessions and
    his job.  However, when discussing a "successful" woman, the attention
    is focused more on her personality, her relations with peers and
    customers, her climb up the corporate ladder, etc.    Of course
    then you get into the realm of what are *acceptable* characteristics
    for a successful man but are not acceptable for the woman and I
    don't mean to digress.
                                                              
    Unfortunately, the *popular* standard of success does not depend on
    a person's happiness but their influence/power in the office, how much 
    money they make, and if they drive a BMW or not.    
                          
    What I'm curious about is how many people feel they are "successful"
    as defined in their own terms.  Personally, I will consider myself
    totally successful when I find my niche in the world....until then,
    I plan to be happy with my little successes.
                          
    
    Kris
                                                           

I think that today's world is *very* hard to be successfull in.  The only way to
be successfull by the 'popular' standards is to give up your own standards. And
you can't just ignore the 'popular' standards because at the very least there's
always someone there with their hand in your pocket wanted money.

Jim.

    	It seems like we've discussed "success" in other notes.
    	Yet, I'd like to say that I don't view success as grabbing
    	for money.  Money is one of the ways success is measured.
    	I've made more money than my ex for about 8 years.
    
    	To me success is doing something you like to do.  To often
    	woman who work at home are not considered successful.  I
    	actually stayed home with my daughter when she was young
    	(not really possible these days) and played mother-earth.
    	(baked bread, started a food co-op, went to school, cooked
    	meals from scratch!)  I was a success at home.
    
    	When I went back to work, I worked hard to catch up (which
    	happens to alot of moms) and my success was doing my very
    	best!
    
    	I guess I can't relate very well to the "successful" people
    	on Wall Street or those who pursue money and power...  maybe
    	my goals aren't the same, but that's my version of success.
    
    		Sherry

    For Information on this subject, read Wednesday's USA Today. There's
    a list of the top 20 womwn corporate executives in American companies
    and the positions they hold. It also tells how far from the CEO top
    rung they stand on the ladder. Most are 1-2 rungs from the top,
    others are there.
    
    The article also tells women how to look for positions in companies
    that allow growth. One example cited was the CEO of Hagen Daas,
    how she left a Corp. VP position with Nabisco and to a chance in
    a maverick company. Good reading. Short. To the point.
    
    Ken
    

    RE .31
    
    	Kris, you opened up aninteresting topic - how do we define success
    ??
    
    	For many, success is measured by money, status symbols, and
    power over others. Yecch !!!
    
    	I will only consider myself a success when I have identified
    the talents and gifts I have been blessed with, and used them to
    improve the world around me. I may only reach out and help one troubled
    soul, or I may help great numbers of people, but regardless of the
    numbers, the fact that I have accomplished that will make me feel
    that I am a success.
    
    	Thanks and best wishes
    
    	Guy B.
    

    
    When I got married, my wife was a programmer working for the
    government and I was an out-of-work ex-student with a part-time
    job at a fast food restaurant.  We laughed about it, I worked on
    my thesis and did dishes.  Her success and intelligence were
    always attractive to me.  For pretty much all of our married life,
    she's had better titles, more responsibility, and a better salary.
    And she's earned it through skill and hard work.  I feel good about 
    her success because it makes her feel good about herself.  And since
    she's my best friend, it seems logical.  
    
    One of the attributes that I personally attach to success, is the
    ability to balance the work and non-work sides of life.  It's a
    skill that takes a while to acquire, and my wife and I have done
    it together, over a period of years.  
    
    I'd definitely class her as intelligent and successful, 
    but without any of the overtones of humorlessness or 
    workaholism mentioned in previous notes.  One of
    the first things that attracted me to her was her ability to banter
    and turn me verbally upside-down.  (In Maine, we didn't generally
    talk fast enough to banter effectively.)  It was clear to me very
    quickly, that here was someone who I could talk to for the rest
    of my life without running out of topics.  Nightly conversations
    generally include things to be done to the house, the birds at the
    feeder, all our pets, work, friends we've heard from, food, books,
    music, politics, upcoming auctions, and lots of laughter.
    
    The more we talk, the more we find to talk about.  This includes
    sharing our successes and failures.  We both work hard, but we spend
    most of our non-work time together.
    
    Ron  

.14>     Intelligent?  Is intelligence being measured by the number
.14>     of degrees one holds, the number of subjects one can talk
.14>     about, the latest book one has read? 

Yes, yes and yes.

Intelligence is defined as 'The ability to learn'. It's outcome is 
thus measured against all the criteria you mention and then some.

That's why it never occurred to me to be intimidated by intelligent
women (or for that matter, people). As a matter of fact,
intelligence was a requirement. The fun parts not withstanding, a
woman with whom conversation is not an option for afterwards, is not
very attractive. 

As to success, this is not as clear cut. If 'success' refers to the
personal growth and accomplishments of the woman, why, there is
nothing intimidating about it; it's rather attractive, I think.

If, on the other hand, 'success' refers to victorious overpowering
of competitors in the dog eat dog corporate world, I am not sure 
whether I am intimidated or simply turned off, but I know I don't 
like it. Come to think of it, I don't like men who display the 
required qualities, either.

-- Ron

    Like the note that quoted the Mitchell song... I think powerful,
    successful, intelligent women are a turn on... (you could insert
    "people" for "women" in that line)... and that people consumed with
    the need to succeed are a turn off.  I can't help but think of several
    of the male managers I have worked with who were "on the fast track"
    and so involved with their own ambition that they lost their marriages.
    
    So the answer is not quite a simple one... yes, it's a turn on to
    be with someone who is bright, articulate, happy in their work and
    good at it,... and there has to be some balance and some room for
    two people to engage one another.
    
    Given the responses in the note it is hard for me to believe your
    sister's avowal that you are the only man she has met who is not
    threatened by her success, etc.  There's something else going on
    here... and it just might be that she is less available for
    relationship than she thinks she is.  We all (self included) have
    ways of sending out messages about where we *really* are, and
    attracting or not attracting people accordingly.  
    
    Randy
    

    I don't get turned on by sucess nor do I get turned off by failure...
    That's irrelevant to relationships....
    
    The Rebel

Re Intelligence

   I think everyone likes intelligent people if whatever it
   is we call intelligence grows out of interest, passion,
   curiosity, love.  No one likes intelligence when 
   it grows out of a desire to form fact balls and shove them
   down someone's throat. (The snide, one-up-manship nasal
   tone one sometimes overhears in Harvard yard -- wouldn't
   a blind date with that curdle your hormones.) 

     Meigs

    Meigs,
    
    The only times in my life that I've ever put on the 'intellectual
    snob act' was to 'put down' a 'snide, one-up-manship ...Harvard
    type' who was putting down two close friends of mine who happened
    to earn their living cleaning houses and driving a truck!
    
    But I will add here that there have been many times since I joined
    the business world when I had to sort of 'pull in my horns' as it
    were when I first met people. I've met many nice people who became
    good friends who were a bit put off by 'educated women'. I find
    that it doesn't diminish me to be 'one of the guys/gals' in a work
    situation. There have been times in the past, before I learned
    this technique that I have turned people off, and I'd rather not
    do that.
    
    Bonnie

Well, I guess I'll be the first to admit that this can be a problem.

I remember a few years ago when I went out with a older women
who made more that me and had a "higher" position, I felt competitive
at first.  [I had always seen women who had lower paying jobs than
myself. ] It was a good opportunity to take a look at my conditioning
around competitiveness.  It was a real eye-opener to see how
destructive competiveness can be.  I always thought as some other did
who replied until I actually went out with someone who made much more
that I.  So many of us of both sexes are liberated in theory but
conditioning runs deep.  I always look for opportunites to examine
the conditioning however much I don't want to for fear of admitting I
am less than perfect or however much I don't want see that the image I
have of myself as a liberated person does not match reality all the
time.

Where this comes from, I don't know.  I guess the conditioning is that
the man is supposed to make more that the woman and provide for her.

john