Conference quark::human_relations-v1

   Boy meaning male child.
    woman boss speaking Hey Boy fetch me...? 
     
    Speaking realistically.. the word FETCH reminds me of the dog ROVER,
    I think if someone said could you pleasse get this for me, or
    Do you mind geting me this, I'd be more apt to respond positively.
    
    It all depends on how the person phrases a question or a want that
    helps me form a decision and how I'll react to their request.
    
    Lisa

>    It all depends on how the person phrases a question or a want that
>    helps me form a decision and how I'll react to their request.


	 .1 I think you've hit my feelings on the subject right on the
	 head!  It is the feeling that is conveyed when the sentence
	 is spoken that annoys me.  Take the following two examples:
	 

	 I was NOT offended in the least this morning in a meeting
	 when someone said, "Let's listen to what this girl has to
	 say."  (actually to me that implied respect for my opinion.)

         But I was offended in the note from this conference today that
         said "Perhaps the younger ones in here still haven't found
         that out." (implying to me that since I am younger than the
         author, and I have a differing opinion than the author, then
         I because of my age, I really haven't experienced enough to
         really know what's going on and how I should act.) 

	 
	 Now, the term "girl" did not in the least offend me, nor does
	 the term "younger ones".  The point I am trying to make is
	 that the interpretion of the sentence is what offends me...I
	 could really care less what words are used.

	 I also expect someone that *is* offended by word usage, to take
	 me aside and say "hey, could you call me <insert word here>
	 from now on?"  I will gladly comply!  (But if they flame at
	 me and blow up about it the first time I use it, they're
	 probably digging their own grave in my book.)  As I am not
	 offended by word usage, I rarely tailor what I say around
	 others unless I know what I say offends them.


	 IMHO, naturally...

	 kath

    I am a woman. I do not get insulted if I am referred to as a lady.
    I hate when store clerks call me "Ma'am". My one year old (as of
    yesterday) daughter is a girl. I think it's just as silly to call
    a woman a girl as it is to call a man a boy. Tasteless and inaprop-
    riate.
    
    Kate-a woman (at least I was last time I checked)
    

         [The separate note *is* the right way to go. Thanks
         to Guy for reminding us...and to Gene for doing it.]
         
         I would no more call a man...young, old,
         middle...whatever..."boy" than I would spit in his
         face. [unless provoked....grin] I think it would
         be demeaning to do so. And has historically been
         used to infer less status [Thanks Mallett....I'm
         gonna save that one to quote....]
         
         Why is it so difficult for *some* [not all] men to
         understand many [again not all] women's feeling on
         this? If nothing else, it makes me wary of what will
         follow...defensive posture struck so-to-speak. It
         *costs* so very little to be sensitive to this and
         avoid it.
         
         At the same time, I must buy-in to the theory that
         the delivery and setting have a whole lot to do with
         how I am going to react. Socially! I cannot accept
         this in the workplace even when well-intentioned,
         with raised eyebrows or raised anything....[grin]
         
         Melinda

    Sometime within the last six months or so, I finally reached the
    point of occasionally feeling like a "grown-up."  The feeling is
    based, I think, on my degree of independence and responsibility.
    I reached a point where I was more responsible *for* something than
    responsible *to* someone.
    
    Even though I've been feeling young for a long time (and still do,
    mostly), I can't think of myself as a "girl."  You can use the word
    "girl" in reference to some women, such as store clerks, and I might
    not really notice.  However, if you use the word "girl" in reference
    to me, I'm going to be confused for a moment because that's not the
    picture I have of myself.  I don't exactly think of myself as "woman"
    either (perhaps "young woman" is the most accurate), but that's
    certainly closer than "girl."
    
    When I'm dealing with people in a non-professional capacity and
    they're older than me (old enough to be graying), I'm more willing
    to accept a "girl" or "dear."  I look young and I sound much younger
    over the phone.  (I get "dear"ed most often on the phone.)  These
    people are at least old enough to be my parents, so it's not so
    surprising to be treated more like a child.  If the same words come
    from someone closer to my own age, they strike a discordant note.
    If the same words come from someone I'm dealing with in a professional
    capacity, they are very surprising.

   IMO the word "girl" is just a word used to refer to the sex of a
    person.  I could be just laziness (Woman has two sylables :-) )
    or it could be just my outlook on life.  I feel that everyone is
    still a kid at heart. So all men are boys and all women are girls.
    I do however recognize that the reverse isn't true.  All boys are
    Men and All girls are women is definately not true.  I just have
    a very carefree attitude about life and I find it tough to get all
    worked up over being called a boy (or even a girl.).  ***IMO***
    they are just words.  I will try to be careful around people that
    it bothers.
    
    Bill
    
    (If you think about it "WOMAN" cold be condesending also..
    
     "Get out of here WOMAN."  or "Hey WOMAN,  Fetch me a beer!"
    
    Pretty condesending huh?!?)

    
    In my "not-so-humble" opinion, this is not "beating a dead horse".
    
        
    "(If you think about it "WOMAN" cold be condesending also..
         "Get out of here WOMAN."  or "Hey WOMAN,  Fetch me a beer!"
        Pretty condesending huh?!?)"
    
    I would certainly agree, but only because of the statement as a
    whole.  
    Question...?  The following statements...
    
    	Ask the girls to come here.
    
    	Ask the women to come here.
    
    Neither sentence could be construed as condescending.  Yet, the
    word woman connotes a certain degree of maturity.  Why try to
    denigrate the level of maturity a woman has reached, by referring
    to her as girl?  Would someone also refer to an 8 year old female
    as a "woman"??  I hardly would think so.  So, conversely, it would
    seem to me, a person who refers to a female of, say 20+ years, as
    "girl", is either ignorant of basic physiology, or as someone else
    wrote, too lazy to bother.  Yet, I guess if a person is a big enough
    boy/girl to "beat a dead horse", he/she can't be all that lazy.  Which,
    I guess, just leaves one other reason.
    
    (tongue-in-cheek)
    
    FWIW - I've never had a humble opinion in my life!   8*)
    
    Gene~
    
    

    I've been to a number of work shops on valuing differences,
    and other types of classes on the DEC of the future.
    
    I've seen two videos on this and have also had this presented
    by workshop leaders...
    
    this is my brief summary of the role of words in the work place
    
    
    how many of you remember 'transactional anaylsis'  this was where
    people looked at what role each person was playing in any transaction..
    
    in general the transactions are
    
    
    adult<-------->adult
            \  /
             \/
             /\
            /  \
   parent </--- \>parent
           \    / 
            \  /
    child </---\>child

    
    This is hard to do in notes but the point is that we interact at
    all levels both back and forth and up and down..
    
    now let us imagine the same diagram but on the left you have
    female terms and on the right you have male.
    
    This very clearly shows that between girls and girls or boys 
    and girls of what ever age...that this is a relationship between
    equals. But between adults (male) and girls (children) this
    is not a relationship between equals. In a business relatinship
    it should be adult/adult. One thing I have seen in the business
    world is that the women who allow the sr men to call them 'girls'
    get stuck in dead end situations. They get lots of praise, and
    get called on to help out with difficult stuff (I have to avoid
    this on the other end - being in my 40s I get the 'mother' trip)
    but, guess what, they don't get promotions...they get to do well
    in their niche and the 'guys' who are 'men' get promotions.
    
    I'd suggest reading 'Games your mother never taught you'.
    
    
    Bonnie

    
    p.s.  In general, what do you call, in the work environment,
    a person with two X chromosomes, who is 
    
    1. your sr manager
    2. a vice president
    3. your immediate superior
    4. a team leader
    5. an outside expert called in to deal with a problem
    
    
    in general you would call them a woman...which implies, maturity,
    competence, and ability to handel the situation.
    
    I still recall the time a man in my group refered to his female
    supervisor, as a girl...
    
    *whew*
    
    and in re Bill, I find your responses very interesting in that
    your personal name and notes lead me to believe that you are 
    fairly recently out of college. My oldest son is now in college
    and finds me insufficiently sensitive in re termonology about
    gender...
    
    don't know if his college is typical...but I think that eliminating
    
    'girl' from the language as referring to adult women, may well
    be as "declasse' or "non 'U'" or 'out of it' or in poor taste,
    as calling an African American a colored person or Negro..no one
    will bite your head off, but you will identify yourself as a person
    who isn't really aware of what people are thinking about and
    taling about...or that you are someone who choses to use a word
    with negative conotations, for what ever reason.
    
    and I would no more criticise a woman who likes to be called a 'girl'
    by men, than many Black/African Americans in the past would criticise
    people of color who still liked to be called colored or Negro.
    
    Just
    
    *flame on*  Don't decide my degree of maturity by what words
    I find personally offensive!
    
    *flame off*
      
     or I will in turn reply that those types of tactics are very
    familiar to me...my teenagers do it all the time but the men
    and women I am aquainted with don't
    
    Bonnie

Such a strange discussion this is, with everyone seemingly presenting 
arguments, but, near as I can tell, everyone agrees on the bottom 
line--people should be called by whatever name they prefer.  And most 
everyone agrees that circumstances and intent make a difference in how 
a "label" is received.  

We do seem to differ on our approach to the issue, however, and it 
strikes me that the difference is mainly due to age.  I know age has 
recently been mentioned (and not well received) as a factor, but I 
think it's a valid point (especially in this case).  

In general, the longer we live, the more we learn, experience, and 
grow (isn't that part of what's life's about?)--I  know more now than 
I did 10, 5, 2 years ago (probably even more than I knew yesterday 
too); I've had a lot of pleasant and unpleasant experiences that have 
broadened and often changed my perception of things; and that's growth 
to me.  

I'm not saying an older person's opinion is right and a younger 
person's wrong (or vice versa) and I'm not saying that the "wisdom" 
of age invalidates a youthful view--only that they are two different 
perspectives based on differing backgrounds and experiences (true of 
any two people, no?).

I remember a recent note (here or in WN maybe) asking how much 
discrimination/bias/whatever did you feel growing up.  As I recall, 
most of the younger noters felt little or none as compared to older 
noters.  And this leads me to certain conclusions that may help us to 
better understand each other.

Younger noters--consider that your older compatriots have experienced 
and/or seen a lot more discrimination and inequality and have fought 
and worked like hell to get the respect and the position they have 
now; and in so doing may have made the way a little easier for you.  
(Not to say you won't fight and work like hell too, but you'll do it 
over different issues; I think that's called progress.)

Older noters--consider why you fight and work like hell.  Isn't 
part of it to effect a change, to make things a little better for 
those coming behind you?  Maybe this youthful attitude (it's only a 
word, a label; it's not that important whether you're called woman or 
girl, man or boy) is evidence of some success?  Isn't that an exciting 
thought?  It may not be showing up in a way you expected (change rarely 
does, it seems), but there it is.



FWIW, my own personal preference ... I_Am_Woman (remember Helen Reddy? 
8-)).  Somehow I doubt that I_Am_Girl would have made it in the charts. 
Part of it is how the words sound (say them aloud).  Girl sounds weak 
and wimpy to me.  Woman sounds strong and independent and self-reliant--
more the kind of person I'd like to be and certainly the kind of person 
I'd like to be perceived as.  Oops!  I guess I'm showing *my* age ... 
8-)

Nancy

    When I was growing up in the ancient days pre-TV and WWII, there
    were very specific ways one referred to the female gender.
    
    Woman= female.  Someone's female relative [as in: woman, have you 
    fed the hogs
    yet?] *or* That woman is gonna be the death of me.
    
    Girl= again female.  She's young, pretty, inexperienced.  And this
    word *always* was used in reference to a female of African-American
    origin even if she were 101 yrs old.  
    
    Lady= Generally the speaker's mother, wife, or sister.  Someone
    respected in the community or the wife, mother, or sister of someone
    with enough power and prestige that it was assumed even if the female
    in question was a tramp, she was still a "lady".
    
    Gal=a denigrating term when applied to a female of color.  A nickname
    for my cousin [who still can't figure out why she was called that]
    and a term that often was meant in the "good ole boy" way as in
    "now that gal is really *something*".
    
    I guess what it comes down to in my mind is what in heck does the
    *speaker* have going on in *their* head.  
    
    I am not a girl.  I am too old, and too jaded for the title.  I
    am a woman...and I can't stand being called "girl" but am flattered
    as all he*l when someone says it nicely.

    M

    	Boys will be Men - someday
    
    	Girls will be Women - someday
    
    	The reverse has never happened yet, and the probability of it
    is very unlikely unless we learn to reverse time.
    
    	Guy B.
    

	 .10, Very well said! 8^)

	 I don't think anyone is arguing the fact that we should
	 always call someone by whatever name they prefer to be
	 called. FWIW, I would find it very awkward calling a woman
	 over about thirty "girl."

         I'm 23 right now and it makes no difference to me what you
         call me.  Will it make any difference when I'm 40?  Probably
         not.  Could it be that maybe the younger generation has
         decided that labels really don't matter. 

	 I do think that the the younger generation is becoming very
	 carefree.  While we are very agressive in attaining our
	 goals, I think that we've just decided that everyone should
	 be allowed to do/be what they want--and we try to not judge
	 others for being different than us.


	 IMHO....

	 
	 kath

	 

American Heritage:

BOY:  1. a male child or a youth
      2. a word used as a mild exclamation

GIRL: 1. a female child or yound unmarried woman
      2. informal: a woman
      3. a sweetheart
      4. a female servant.


Why not informal: a man, a sweetheart, a male servant?

I personally think in terms of girl more than woman depending on what level of
intimacy I'm at with them.  If it is a "girl" friend then I'm more apt to think
girl.  If it is just an aquaintance maybe more apt to think woman.

I don't get hung up on the phrase if it is spoken by someone that I don't feel
is chauvinistic.  You can tell by the way they say it.

Young woman seems to be the safest for someone in my age group.  I feel
comfortable with that no matter who says it.  I don't like the term lady that
much because when I was a kid, lady was reserved for women you thought of as
old!  Sort of like "That lady down the street chased us again."  (she may have
been only 30 for all I know!) 

         RE: .13
         
         From all of us that were once 23 
         
         [I know it *sounds* impossible...but true
         none-the-less] 
         
         And especially from those of us who are a far cry from 
         23 who watched our classmates get gunned down on
         college campuses ....and waited for friends to come home
         from war who never did...and have buried children
         and parents and friends....and have sat through long
         nights holding strangers who wanted to die...
         
         I am sincerely glad that labels do not mean much
         to you. I hope you *never* have the occaision to find
         out how important they *can* be.
         
         Melinda
         
         

	 RE: melinda
	          
>         And especially from those of us who are a far cry from 
>         23 who watched our classmates get gunned down on
>         college campuses ....and waited for friends to come home
>         from war who never did...and have buried children
>         and parents and friends....and have sat through long
>         nights holding strangers who wanted to die.

	 Why do you assume that if I'm only 23 I haven't experienced
	 anything like this?  I've been through experiences like this
	 and more.  I still remember, vividly, watching a good friend
	 be knifed to death in a riot...and losing 6 friends in a car
	 accident involving a drunk driver.

	 You don't have to be older to have suffered pain....but I
	 fail to see what that has to do with the label "girl" vs
	 "woman".

	 kath


	 	   
         

    I consider "girl" to be extremely offensive (similar to racial
    slurs as Bonnie suggested) because of the history of men and women
    and power in this country.  

    The only time I'll let it slide anymore is when I'm shopping with
    my daughter.  I realize that when
    salespeople quickly glance at us they think at first that we're
    both teenagers.  We both have long hair and are wearing jeans. 
    I have noticed lately that when I'm shopping with my daughter they
    say, "Can I help you girls?"  When I'm with my #1 shopping friend,
    Meryl, they say, "Can I help you ladies?"  When I'm alone it might
    be "Yes, Ma'am, can I help you with anything?"  (These are usually
    jewelry or antique stores.)  So, I don't mind being called girl
    when I realize the person hasn't taken a *close* look yet and is
    still under the misguided notion that I'm closer to 20 than 40.
    
    However, anybody who knows how close to 40 I am and calls me girl
    had better be prepared to be verbally attacked because I'm sick
    of this sh*t.  It shows an extreme lack of respect to call a woman
    over 30 girl, and I personally think that any female over 18 should
    demand to be called a woman.  A possible exception is the term
    "girlfriend" which is a little different.  That's a term to quickly
    explain to somebody where someone fits into your life, so I can
    accept it.
    
    Re .6, Chelsea, while you may not register it if you hear someone
    call a store clerk a girl, if you stop and think about it is pretty
    rude.  Just because somebody is doing a particular job that didn't
    require a college degree doesn't mean they remain boys and girls
    for ever.
    
    I try to say "woman" all the time now when I refer to females over
    18, just as I tried to say "black" instead of "colored" back in
    the 60's when it was explained to me that Americans of African heritage
    found "colored" offensive.  Now saying "black" instead of "colored"
    is second nature for most of us.  I hope that someday the same can be 
    said of "woman" and "girl."
    
    Re .2, Kath, I think that you *should* have been offended when that
    men said to you in a meeting "Let's listen to what this girl has
    to say."  He would never say "Let's listen to what this boy has
    to say" to a 23 yr. old male engineer with the same degree you have.
   Why shouldn't you get the same respect?  (I can almost hear the man
    thinking, "Imagine this little gal being able to understand all
    this stuff....and have a few ideas of her *own*, too!")  
    
    Also, Kath, regarding something else you said in another reply,
    it's impossible for you to know what your opinions will be when
    you're 40, just as it's impossible for me to know what mine will
    be when I'm 60.  But, I expect I will change my mind about
    a few things in the next 21 yrs., as new evidence comes in.
    
    Lorna
    
    

    
>    Re .2, Kath, I think that you *should* have been offended when that
>    men said to you in a meeting "Let's listen to what this girl has
>    to say."



	 Isn't that the beauty of this world?  We're all allowed to
	 be whoever we want to be.  We do not have to accept anyone
	 else's thoughts and ideals unless we want to--and we are
	 allowed to reach to stimulus in whatever manner we see fit.


	 I doubt I would ever call another female "girl" to her face,
         but if I did I would hope that she was adult enough to use
         common courtesy when she tell's me she would rather it be
         "woman." 


	 Happy to be a girl.

		kath
	 
    

    Re .18, Kath, perhaps you are "Happy to be a girl" because in your
    life you have yet to experience any negative aspects to being a
    "girl".  If so, you are fortunate, and I don't wish any on you.
     However, you can probably imagine that if you were a 60 year old
    legal secretary who had been married for years, had your own home,
    raised children, and now had grandchildren, and had many years of
    experience dealing with all aspects of being an adult in society
    (paying taxes, voting, etc.), along with having a great deal of
    experience as a legal secretary, and if your boss were a 35 year
    old lawyer who habitually called you a "girl," you might not like
    it, because you probably might realize that the reason he calls
    you a girl is because he thinks he is better than you.  He thinks
    he is better than you because he has a law degree and makes big
    bucks and demands respect, but you for all your life's experience
    are just a secretary, just a "girl."  You have no power and you
    can't demand anything.  You just have to accept what he chooses
    to deal out to you, if you want your pay.  I witnessed this attitude
    a couple of years ago when I went to a lawyer for a consulation
    for my divorce.  As we wound up our little talk the attorney said,
    "Stop at the desk on the way out and have my girl set up your next
    appointment."  His "girl" had bluish white hair set in little waves
    and look around 60.  He looked around 35.  I wanted to say, "Oh,
    okay, *boy*."  (Naturally, I never went back.)  Many of us (women)
    who have less than professional jobs have been referred to as "girls"
    long after we really *were* girls, as a way to remind us of our
    lack of power, just as black men were called "boys" for years by
    whites to remind them that in our society they had better not expect
    to be treated like men.  
    
    Lorna
    

    This afternoon I had to pick up an envelope in the Upper Thompson
    St. Lobby here at the Mill.  While I was standing at the Reception
    Desk waiting for my turn, I looked up to see a sign on the wall
    in back of the desk that said, "GIRLS AT DESK."  I thought, What
    the heck does that mean?  Then, I noticed that two name plaques
    were stuck to the wall on either side of it, apparently telling
    people that these are the names of the "girls" at the reception
    desk.  Imagine all the vendors and what not coming through the Thompson
    St. Lobby in the course of a day having it reinforced on their
    subconscious by Digital Equipment Corporation that female receptionists
    are "girls" regardless of their age.  Hey, I'm impressed by such
    enlightened thinking!  Aren't you?  On behalf of all the other
    female clerical types at DEC, I'd just like to say....nah, never
    mind, I think I'll just go have a drink.
    
    Lorna
    

    
    
    Once a month, my daughter and I (she's only 8 and I'm a little older),
    go out on what we call "girls night out".  At the same time, my
    husband and 9 year old son do a "boys night out".  It seems that
    women don't 'resent' thinking of themselves or even being called
    "girl" when they are referring to a group of peers (i.e going out
    with the girls), as it is common to hear men saying "going out
    -doing some man-thing- with the boys).  Perhaps it is as dependant
    on *OUR* mood when we are called one thing or another, as it is
    on the mood of the person calling us *THAT NAME*.
    
    In my opinion, I'm over 30 (don't let it get around) and I don't
    care what you call me. It just gives me more incentive to come back
    and make you eat your words...WHATEVER they happened to be.
    
    cathy (not TOO much over 30)

    there's a song out called "I'm an Adult Now" one line says...
    
    "I don't write songs about girls anymore, I have to write about
    women."  
    
    I thought it was appropriate for this topic.
    
    IM (Not humble) O....
    
    Girl = a young at heart, fun loving, playful, carefree, spunky,
           female human.(Notice it doesn't mean immature or anything
    else condesending.)
    
    
    Woman = a boring, old, boring,  too mature, boring, stuck on themself,
    and boring.  (Let's not forget overpowering chestbeating femanists.)
    
    So if you are being called a girl by me take it as a compliment.
    
    Bill 
    
    Woman= 

    I can feel this one.....

    
    "Woman = a boring, old, boring,  too mature, boring, stuck on themself,
    and boring.  (Let's not forget overpowering chestbeating femanists.)"
    
    Do you mean that any female who prefers to be called a "woman"
    instead of a "girl" is "boring", "too mature" (wow! that's a new
    one on me... too mature?!?!?)????
    Or is "too mature" just more "woman" than you can handle?
    
    "Overpowering  chestbeating femanists(sic)"???????
    
    Hmmm... seems I've had a few notes trashed by a certain moderator
    for a helluva lot less.  
	Maybe I've just lost my "youthful glow"???
    
    Gene~    
    

    re: .23
    
       " -< Don't wanna hear any whining about this one... >- "
    
    Is this to imply that you've heard "whining" about others?
    If so, I'd be real curious to hear what you've interpreted
    as "whining".
    
    ". . .a young at heart, fun loving, playful, carefree, spunky,
     female human. . ."
    
    That would be how I describe most of the women I know (of all ages).
    I'd also describe most of them as intelligent, articulate, powerful,
    compassionate, and aware.
    
    "Woman = a boring, old, boring,  too mature, boring, stuck on themself,
     and boring.  (Let's not forget overpowering chestbeating femanists" (sic)
    
    We obviously move in *very* different circles; I can safely say
    I know of no women who answer that description.  I am curious, though,
    Bill - since you used the word four times, how do these "boring"
    women you know manifest that behavior?  What is it that they do
    or say that strikes you as boring?
    
    
    "So if you are being called a girl by me take it as a compliment."
    
    If you were in a business meeting with female employees you didn't
    know, Bill, would you use the term "girls"?
    
    Steve
    

    All my coments do not refer to anyone in this or any other conference.
    
    My note doesn't make reference to anyone, it is just my definition
    of the two words.......
    
    No I don't mean anyone who prefers to call herself a woman is what
    I mentioned.  They have their own definition of the word.  I just
    was saying what I call a woman is.
    
    Bill

    re: .26
    
    
    "whining" to me is trying to make me change my mind when I don't
    want to.  I'll be open for arguments, but I don't want badgering.
    
    The reason I find them "boring" is that they are generally stuck
    on silly things like being called a woman or a girl.  They generally
    go about stuck on the fact that they are in fact female and state,
    "I am WOMAN".  I say in reply "Big Deal, what's it to ya'. I see
    you as another person, not as a woman, girl, white, black, oriental,
    older person, younger person, but *just* another person. "  Everyone
    is created equal, and I believe in equal rights for all, I don't
    care what you are so don't restate the obvious by telling me.  
    
    As for calling a bunch of females in a meeting girls.  You bet I
    would!  That's just me, if I said anything else it wouldn't be me.
    It's a good thing that I'm an Art Student, that way I won't be in
    buisiness meetings and I won't tick people off.

    Bill

    Well Bill, You can call me a girl in a business meeting but only
    if you refer to the male members as boys in the same context. I
    would call people "boys and girls" jokingly but only with people
    I was close with. I suspect it would rather hurt my business stature
    if I called my manager a boy to often.
    
    Well, this "girl" has to get back to her V5.2 upgrade so the "boys"
    will have a computer to work on tomorrow. You know how they get
    when their toys don't work. liesl

    Yep I would even start out by saying "Hello  Boys and girls..."
    
    If they can't take life a little less serious then I don't wanna
    work for 'em.  Too much stressed out people give me headaches. 
    I'm a very unstructured person and I don't like conforming.  I approach
    life with the attitude that everything laid back unless you make
    a big deal about it.  I try not to make a big deal about much. Kinda
    a rebel without a cause....
    
    Bill

    Bill,
    
    In another conference you gave your age as 21, and from your personal
    name I assume that you are recently out of college. I find your
    attitude rather interesting since it is very different from my
    own son who is 19 and now in college. The persons of female gender
    at his college are quite firm about wishing to be called women
    and not having much patience with males who call them girls. My
    son has corrected me from time to time on my occasional slips in
    terminology.
    
    I find it rather interesting that you reacted in such a negative
    fashion to the notes about the use of 'women' vs 'girl' since those
    of us who first brought it up definitely used a light and a humorous
    touch in our first few replies.
    
    I have no intention of preaching at you, however, may I offer one
    suggestion? If you do intend to move ahead in the business world,
    calling your male and female superiors 'boys and girls' isn't
    particularly condusive to upward mobility.
    
    Bonnie

    Even tho' I had such a good time this weekend visiting and working
    with some talented and interesting women (oops! girls? uhhh, fe-males?
    or, ladies?---oh, what the heck!) I wish I had read Bill's note
    sooner.  
    
    Then I could have taken my boring old woman's bod with its giggling
    and carefree heart and dashed over to *his* house and played 
    in his sandbox!  I have the neatest sand strainer and shovel
    with a matching pail.
    
    Darn!  I missed having a better time somewhere else over the weekend
    *again*.
    
    M. who_is_WOMAN_and_boring???????

         Ya' know?
         
         Of all the things that I have been called in my life,
         [too numerous to mention...chuckle]...
         
         Boring has never come up...
         
         [ I *will* not succomb to that straight line...I
         will *not*...what the hey...oh well...]
         
         ...neither has young....
         
         Melinda

    Re: .13
    
    >Could it be that maybe the younger generation has decided that
    >labels really don't matter. 
    
    Anecdotal evidence, I know, but:  I'm a member of the younger
    generation and I do think they matter.
    
    Re: .17 and shop clerks
    
    A lot of them are young women in their early twenties (if that old),
    which is why it doesn't seem so strange.  I would find it strange
    to hear it applied to an older woman.  It seems that some jobs are
    held by young people, predominantly -- fast food stores, mall clothing
    stores, etc.
    
    Re: .23
    
    >So if you are being called a girl by me take it as a compliment.
    
    Are you claiming, then, that the burden of communication is on the
    receiver and not the sender?
    
    I think one of the reasons that this whole thing has been going
    on so long is that your position implies, "I don't care what you
    think, I'm going to do what I want to make myself happy and your
    reaction to it is none of my concern."  As a master of selfishness,
    I have no trouble recognizing it when I see it.  Most of those who
    have expressed a wish to be called women have acknowledged that
    they can accept "girl" in certain contexts.  In other words, they
    have shown a degree of flexibility and compromise.  You, on the
    other hand, are going to do things your own way and, if we don't
    like it, that's our problem.  I suspect that many women have been
    looking for a similar compromise on your part and it seems fairly
    obvious that it's not going to happen.
    
    Folks, stop trying.  Bill doesn't care what you think.
    
    P.S.  By declaration of the Tuna Master, you are hereby proclaimed
    to be a tuna.

    "Younger generation" *is* a label. 
    
    "Boring" is a label.
    
    "Older generation" is a label.
    
    And "Girl" and "Woman" said in certain ways, with certain voice
    inflections accompanied with certain body language, is a label.
    
    Society in general labels everything and everyone.  
    
    But the *good shopper* bypasses the labels for the contents, and chooses
    the product for its worth.
    
    M   who_is_going_to_be_labeled_as_a_smart_a*s_if_she_doesn't_quit_noting

    A few years ago may wife and I participated in an examination of
    books used in our school district's elementary classes.  The purpose
    was to document (not preach or offer opinions) the depiction of
    males and females in books used in all subjects.  The students using
    those books are NOW in college and high school; the town was/is
    a suburb of Boston, within the 128 beltway, which is quite wealthy
    and has a reputation for excellent schools.
    
    An opinionated summary (mine) of the results was that girls watched
    and cheered while boys dared, risked, acted, played... There was
    only 1 active female portrayed in the pictures in the entire set of
    books [nine years ago]. It seemed that boys grew up to become "men,"
    that is, they took on a variety of roles as they became older,
    supported by their womenfolk (mothers, wives..). Girls became wives
    and mothers, but were not capable of self-definition in these stories.
    
    When I was later on the School Committee of this same town, I had the
    opportunity to become embroiled in a minor controversy with the
    Superintendent and Director of Athletics re. funding for sports.
    The girls' teams/activities received far less money than the boys', but
    we were working on a formula which responded to participation (per
    capita cost) and availability (number of sports activities available
    to girls or to boys).  Soccer, tennis, and basketball were pretty
    good models, and the per capita expenditures were fairly even for
    male or female participants.  Hockey was outrageously expensive
    (as any "hockey parent" can attest, as was football. But the
    Superintendent, at his most creative, pointed out that, at least
    ball had a "matching" female activity.  Yes, CHEERLEADING. And, yes,
    he was serious.
     [btw, you can decide for yourself which you prefer: girls'/boys'
      or female/male sports (or men's/women's) so that budding
      editorial geniuses can rewrite the paragraph without having to
      think too much]
    
    I have a number of professional colleagues (in academic, music, and
    digital activities) who can call me just about anything (and vice
    versa).  We got to that point with each other the "old fashioned way,"
    we earned each other's respect, and our relationships are grounded
    in that respect.  Yeah, then the things we call each other are
    not context-free and stereotypical; they are sensitive to context
    and individual.
    
    This is why I don't have any patience with the Bills of the world who
    are either too insensitive, too lazy, too inexperienced, or too selfish
    too acknowledge the issue in the first place.
    
    Beam me up, Scottie...

    Ah, yes -- got me again.
    I couldn't find Mr. Akins in ELF, so I reread .30, thinking "THIS
    MUST BE A HOAX."  Does the date APRIL 1 have the significance
    I wish to give it.
    I bit. 

    If it was a hoax, it has to have been a pretty extensive one.
    Mr Akins has shown up earlier in this file and also in soapbox.
    Kind of an elaborate build up for a one day hoax.
    
    but possible.
    
    Bonnie

    re. .38
    
    I was just hoping there was some explanation.
    

         Duffy....
         
         There *is* an explanation...it just isn't the
         one you hoped for....
         
         M-

    To the female listeners...
    
    When you refer to going out with your buddy, female, do you call
    her your "girlfriend"?  My sister 28 and aunts of various ages over
    40 when they are going out as a group or with other female friends
    refer to it as "going out with the girls" They would never say going
    out with "the women".
    
    Its all a question of context. Surely as long as the label is not
    said in a defamatory way then the label doesn't matter? 
    
    There are lots of derogatory ways in which the sexes refer to each
    other but does it really matter? Surelt the best way to deal with
    that sort of comment is to ignore it. So if you don't like being
    called a girl ignore it.
    
    Jon

         Well....
         
         First or all, No, I do not refer to my female friends
         as "girls"....the few women who I consider real friends
         look, act, and talk like women....you know the old
         saying..."If it looks like a duck...."?
         
         Second of all, in entirely *personal/social* settings
         I would tend to agree with you. Totally.
         
         However, I feel none of us is blind to the implications
         that casual remarks, off-the-cuff comments, and general
         intra-office interaction can play in our careers.
         In accordance with that knowlege, it remains important
         to address women in a manner that represents their
         professionalism.
         
         Melinda

    re: .36
    
    	FYI - Most teachers/administrators I know stay away from textbooks
    	wherever possible. You see this Massachusetts and we just don't
    	do things the same way as Texas and California. If a publisher
    	can't sell a textbook in Texas or California he won't publish
    	it.
    
    

    in re .41 Jon
    
    Please go back to note 724.8 and my note on transactional anaylsis.
    
    When a group of women go out together and they call each other
    girls this is a peer type relationship. They are all equals and
    have mutually agreed to relate at the 'child' or 'buddy' level.
    I would be quite comfortable with 'girl' or 'boy' in a social
    group of good friends.
    
    A work situation, however, is not the same thing, the supervisor
    or manager is in a adult role. When he or she addresses a co worker
    by 'girl' or 'boy' then they have put themself into a parent-child
    relationship with that co worker..*even* if that was not their intent.
    
    There is a difference between the cameraderie after hours and the
    professionalism that we are due from our superiors and peers in
    a work environment.
    
    Bonnie

    re: .34
    
    In regards to that last large paragraph. . .yeah!. . .what you
    said!  Poifect!
    
    re: .41
    
    When I was serving time in Texas, blacks would occasionally use
    the term "boy" or "nigger" in referring to one another in a closed
    group; I was not part of that group and didn't have the right to
    use the term (and I valued my life as well. . .)  The point, Jon,
    is that "girl" has historically been used by men to repress women
    (and some of that history is as recent as this morning).  How a
    repressed group of people feels about a particular label amongst
    themselves is one thing (often it's expression of unity), but used
    by one of the oppressor group, the connotation is felt *very* 
    negatively.
    
    Yes, delivery and context are extremely important, but I think that
    in some instances, all the smiling good-naturedness still will not
    yield a successful transaction.  F'rinstance, (Bill) imagine yourself
    walking into a meeting; there are a number of people there including
    several women and men; the men are all members of one minority or
    another; most of the people are in their mid-thirties or older.
    Do you really think your "Hi boys and girls!" remark is going to
    play well?  Did you ever stop to consider, as Chelsea indicates,
    that these people grew up with their experiences, not Bill's?
    
    This isn't an argument for what "should" or "should not" be; it's
    a discussion of how real people feel today and when someone starts
    telling me how I "should" feel (based on *their* perception of *their*
    remarks) I know I'm with someone who's not listening very well.
    
    Steve
    

    Hi ladies and gentlemen....
    
    I was going to take the time and reply to each of you by picking
    out key words and slowly and tediously pay close attention to each
    one.  As I was reading all the replys I noticed that all save one
    were nothing but condemning my opinion.  As I stated earlier, I
    did not aim the gun (note) at anyone in this conference or any where
    else for that matter.  I in return was called a "selfish" person.
    What ever happened to not attacking another noter for his/her opinion?
    In my note I just stated my definitions of the words.  I did not
    call anyone a woman nor did I call anyone "boring".  
    
    	Why am I being selfish?  Just because I feel the word "woman"
    to be boring, I'm selfish?  Just because I didn't change my opinion
    to what the masses think makes me "selfish" (like on noter specifically
    stated.)?   Don't I have the right to my opinion and don't I have
    the right to state it as much as anyone.  It was a cute little
    conversation about it being an April Fool's day joke.  It wasn't.
    
    I guess what I'm trying to say is that if you really knew me and
    I refered to you as a "woman" I'd be insulted.  All my friends who
    do know me expect to be called "girl" or "boy" or even things like
    "hun", "buddy", "darling", "dude" or things like that.  If someone
    who knew me heard me call them any thing proper they would think
    something is wrong.  I must be doing something right because I have
    lots of "girls", "boys", "buddies", "pals" who enjoy my fresh attitude
    towards the strict structure of society.  I'm a rebel and I don't
    care for labels because it is the person that counts.  "Woman" sounds
    to stuffy for me.  
    
    	Let's get one thing clear...I will be polite enough to refer
    to strangers as men and women, but once I feel comfortable with
    them I don't care how old, sophisticated, mature, liberated or more
    intelligent they are they will all be treated the same friendly
    matter.  Formality has it's place but with me it's not often.
    
    As for getting ahead in the buisness world...I never wanted to and
    never will....the buisness type lifestyle doesn't apply to me. 
    It doesn't float my boat.  I'm hear because I need money for school.
    If I happen to get a decent job opportunity working in an artistic
    setting maybe DEC has something for me else its just another job.

    
    One deffinition of GUY...from WEBSTERS...
    
    GUY- (n) 4)British.  One who is odd or grotesque in appearance or
    dress.
    
    I don't know about anyone else but I still don't mind being called
    a guy, but I'm sure that all of you think that I match the description
    in the dictionary just because my opinion differs from yours and
    that I'm not willing to concede to your beliefs.
    
    A selfish Bill

    -1
    
    Yes Bill, you do have a right to your own opinion.  You can expect
    challenges to it, and sometimes, in NOTES, you'll feel like the "Lone
    Ranger."  I respect a person for stating and forming his/her own opinion
    and not simply going with the herd.
    
    After all of these replies, I bet when you drink a glass of water
    that you look like a sprinkler head from all those bullet holes!
     
    :^)   Dwight   :^)

         Dwight....
         
         I can only think of three reasons to shoot something:\
         
         	1. To eat it
         	2. To protect myself from bodily injury
         	3. To hang it on my wall
         
         I don't think I want/need to do any of those things with
         Bill....
         
         [grin]
         
         Melinda

    re: .46
    
    Perhaps you could point out clearly where your opinion has
    been "condemned".  As far as I can see, it hasn't; other
    differing opinions have been offered and some of these 
    challenge yours.  And one person, indicating she herself
    has acted selfishly sometimes, said that she recognized the
    behavior in you.
    
    There's a reason for this:  yes, Bill, you can call people
    whatever you will, but you don't seem to care what the other
    person wants to be called - that's a selfish act.  If a person
    has made it clear that he doesn't want to be called a "boy"
    will you still do so?  Or a "girl"?  I think that's all people
    are trying to say - you wish to be called "Bill". . .a "guy".
    Fine and so be it.  Will you grant that courtesy to others,
    that they be called what *they* wish?
    
    If yes, please consider the medium of NOTES.  We can't know
    ahead of time who's reading our messages and how they wish
    to be addressed.  In this case, doesn't it make sense to use
    the "default" form of address for strangers?  In a sense, when
    we note, we *are* in a meeting, potentially full of strangers -
    for every note writer, how many readers might there be?.
    
    Does that make any sense?
    
    Steve

>>    In this case, doesn't it make sense to use
>>    the "default" form of address for strangers?


         And just what, pray tell, Mr. Mallett is the "default" form
         of address? Are "we" assuming that your default is my default
         and is Bill's default?

	 Please enlighten me as to what the "default" form of address
	 for strangers is....I musta missed that point in my "ettiquite"
	 class... maybe I just missed my ettiquite class all together?


	 kath

    The defualt form of address would be the one least likely to
    offend. Or the one most recommended by such sources of
    guidance as ettiquette books, Valuing Difference workshop
    leaders etc etc. i.e. 'women'.
    
    Bonnie

>         ..............I musta missed that point in my "ettiquite"
>	 class... maybe I just missed my ettiquite class all together?



		Yes, I think it's fairly obvious that you did.

		Melinda

    re: .50
    
    Bonnie (.51) states it well; since, so far as I've heard, no
    adult female has objected to the use of "women" and since
    several have objected to the use of "girls", particularly
    in a business situation, it seems to me that the default in
    this instance is "women".  And we *are* in a business situation
    here.  Although we're not discussing direct hits to the P&L
    statement, part of DEC's philosophy is that a workforce that
    values one another is more productive; as Bonnie alludes, the
    exchanges that go on here fall under the unbrella of Valuing
    Differences.
    
    Steve
    
    P.S.  Lest you think I'm "hooked" on one word or another, I have,
    in delivering classes and conducting meetings, used terms like 
    "boys", "girls", "bozos" "idiots" and so on.  However *well before*
    using those terms, I establish a personal relationship with the
    other individuals (which acknowledges that I'm a "boy" and a bigger
    idiot/bozo than them) and I check to make sure that my words are
    not upsetting them.  The way I do that is to ask and then listen
    to and respect their answer.
    

	RE: Steve....I have talked to females that ARE offended by the word
	"woman", in fact there are times *I* have been offended by its
	 usage.

>    Or the one most recommended by such sources of
>    guidance as ettiquette books, Valuing Difference workshop
>    leaders etc etc. i.e. 'women'.

	 Maybe I'm wrong, but aren't these just prominent people's
	 opinions?  Just because they are well-known people, does that
	 mean their opinion should apply to me?



	 My point is that no one should select for me what my
	 "default" is and how I should address people.  I will always
	 continue making every decision in my life based on what *I*
	 feel is right and what *I* feel comfortable with.  We can all
	 wish to be called what ever we want, but we cannot force
	 someone else to be pychic about what that default is.  AND we
	 cannot expect everyone in the world to conform to what we
	 feel is "right."

	 This discussion is no longer about whether I wish to be
	 called one thing and someone else wishes to be called another
	 thing.  It is now a discussion about whether or not we should
	 be allowed to have our own opinion and whether someone else
	 has the right to tell another that they are wrong and should
	 change.

	 FWIW:  Please notice I've yet to state in this note what MY
	 "default" is--my default no longer pertains to this
	 discussion.

	 
	 You can lead a horse to water but you can't make the horse
	 drink. 

	 kath
	 

       After reading the base note and 54 replies I can only say/write
    what I feel onthis subject.
       1. Please don't call me girl call me by my first name if you
    know me well enough to call me girl.
       2. re.23 women old boring??/ Please don't ever let my 83 year
    old grandmother who has a bum leg but still manages to drive (managed
    the nickname crash, a favorite in our family), gets on stage and
    dances with the seniors, and climbs down the embankment to walk
    the dog! She sooner shoot you!
       3. I am over the age of girl I am  over the age of 18 and I demand
    some respect! 
       4. Did you ever notice when the guys go out and they come home
    and you ask who did you meet, the reply can be from their real names
    to the usal gang or Gorilla, MutfaceEtc while women say  Sue, Jane
    Sally?
       5. Most of important if somebody does call me by a name I'd rather
    not be called I take these actions
        a) let the person know what I'd be called if no avail I tell
    the person if this persists then I can no longer talk to them.
    
        lisa

    Being a tender foot in this country and ignorant of English, I can
    not say much, just have a question.  Would it be ok to call someone
    "Miss" or "Mr." if you don't know that person at all?  When I was
    in college, my friends laughed at me a lot for saying that, but
    they never explained to me why or what I should use instead.

    The phrasing generally used is "'Scuse me, {sir | ma'am | miss}."
    Here's where a nice Southern accent can help.  With one, the latter
    two choices can be compressed into "myz" (like "miz", but with
    more of a twang), and groups of two or more people can be addressed
    as "y'all".
    
    							Ann B.

         RE: .56
         
         You were and are absolutely correct in using the
         terms Mr or Miss or Mrs when in doubt.
         
         You were laughed at for the very same reason.
         
         It is a standard response for people [in our country
         anyway] to respond with derision or humor towards
         things they do not understand or comprehend.
         
         Our loss.
         
         Melinda

    Steve...
    
    If you would be so kind and reread my notes (ignoring the spelling
    and concentrating on the words :-) ) I have stated that If I knew
    if it really bothered someone I would try not to call them that.
    I wouldn't make promises because that's asking a tiger to change
    his stripes.
    
    If you want to find out which notes condemn my opinion reread all
    the replies.  I was not the only person who noticed the knives being
    thrown.  I don't have to time to go back and pick out live by line
    each example.
    
    As I think more on this subject...The words women or girls rarely
    come up in my conversations when I'm directly talking to someone.
    I may refer to a group, but hardly ever singularly.
    
    Bill

    Oh yeah and one other thing I forgot....
    
    to the people that keep claiming I called Old Women boring.
    
    I didn't ....I said the word "women" to me is defined as boring,
    and old.   If your grandmother or any other elderly person is driving
    a car and dancing the night away, then in my opinion she is a "Fun
    Old Girl" 'cause she sure aint actin' her age...and anyone younger
    then her is a girl to her...(by a few years....I'm sure your alway's
    going to be mommy and daddy's little girl no matter how old you
    are.)
    
    I think Old people are some of the most exciting people to hang
    out with....
    
    Bill

Golly...gee... this note isn't about calling someone something after it's
clear that they object to that ...name.  It's turned into another kind of
debate, mainly conforming to the thought pattern of the majority, or at
least to those who might have some "strings attached" .... as in who pay's
your salary, perhaps.
    
I tend to agree with Kath on this thing about not wanting/letting someone else
decide or tell me what I should "think" ..... "automatically." (OK Kathy...we
find ourselves in agreement in another file!) 
    
And if we let someone decide for us, should we get together and throw a blanket
party for some person that somehow didn't read the system message and still
thinks he/she's an individual??? 
    
And if we truly value differences.... why do we condemn a person for their
"default" opinion or reasoning if it doesn't agree with the collective body???
Is this not the "pot calling the kettle, black"??? 
    
Is this not a socialistic form of programming???  Are we to be trained like
seals on how to think/react/respond by a collective body??? Should we let our
own "boss" or whoever is paying our salary decide what the "nature of our
thoughts" will be???  Do we, in this fast paced society, give up the human
quality of being able to reason for ourselves... to hide in the multitude... to
lose our own identity... to give up this personal freedom which our forefathers
fought and died for???  Are we reduced to political pawns???
    
I'm not a rebel without a cause, but I'll not allow anyone tell me how I should
think or feel.  What I "think" is what I "think."  What I "feel" is what
I "feel."

To tell me what to think or feel, or even expect, is wrong, and I'll not debate
it. It's not open for debate.  That's how I "feel," pilgrim. 

Dwight 

    .61 very well put....
    
    The Rebel

.Dwight> (OK Kathy...we find ourselves in agreement in another file!) 
    

	 We've gotta stop agreeing like this, someone could get the
	 wrong impression! 8^)

	 Very well put, you stole the words right outta my mouth.
	 ("THIEF! THIEF!")  8^)

	 g'night boys! 8^)

	 kath

In my opinion, boring is in the eyes of the beholder :-)

Jim.

    .64  absolutely right....
    
    The Rebel

    
>    The combination of the quoted statements, in their context, create
>    a very strong impression of "I'm going to do what I want to do and
>    I don't care what you think about it."  On the one hand, we have
>    repeated assertions of his determination to call females girls;
>    on the other hand, we have no acknowledgement of the concerns of
>    women who don't want to be called girls.  In fact, he dismisses
>    them as silly or unimportant.
 
    Please refer to note .6 where I distinctly state...
    
    "I will try to be careful around people that it bothers."   

>     And so we have Bill displaying the same behavior he finds so
>    objectionable -- an unwillingness to credit another's point of view.
>    Those who have objected to Bill's point of view have not dismissed
>    it.  Rather, they have addressed the points on which they differ
>    and tried to explain their position.  These explanations have also
>    been dismissed.
 
    Looks like your doing the same thing you accuse me of.  Please re
    read my notes.  I state several times that it is just my opinion.
    I have listened to others and still choose to feel the way I do.
    
    
       
   > In the final analysis, it looks like Bill isn't really interested
   > in communicating.  He expresses himself without examining how his
   > words will be received by his listeners and he doesn't really listen
   > to those who are addressing him.
    
    Please refer back to .6, .27, .46, .59
    
    All of which I say that I make efforts to change my ways to people
    I offend.
    
   > Now then, I have laid out my observations and my conclusions.  If
   > I am wrong, it should be an easy thing to point out any incorrect
   > observation(s) and/or conclusion(s).
    
    Yes it is easy.
    
    
   > What do I see as selfish?  Well, there's this from .23:
    
     >>So if you are being called a girl by me take it as a compliment.
    
    
    
    >In other words, Bill is telling us how to change our reactions to
    >suit him.  Some women have already explained why they would not
    >be able to do so, but that seems to have made no impression on Bill.
    >I don't recall seeing him even acknowledge their concerns.
    
    No I'm not saying that.  I guess I could have worded it better.
    The point I was trying to make was that I don't intend on insulting
    someone when I refer to them as a girl.  Being called a girl by
    me is meant to be complimentary. I'm just trying to clarify that
    point just in case I slip and accidently call someone who gets offended
    a girl.
    
    
    >Now, in .28, we have another example of inflammatory titling:
    
    >                   -< Girls....Girls.....Girls..... >-
    
    >It is not unreasonable that he is refering to participants in the
    >discussion, including those who have firmly expressed a desire not
    >to be called "girl" except in specific contexts.
    
    Hardly...I'm sorry if you took it that way.  My title was taken
    from the Motley Crue song of the same title.  I had no intention
    of insulting you or anyone else.  I did state that I do not aim
    my notes at any noters ( I've learned my lesson in an earlier note.)
    
    
    Another expression of selfishness:
    
    >>They generally go about stuck on the fact that they are in fact
    >>female and state, "I am WOMAN".  I say in reply "Big Deal, what's
    >>it to ya'. 
    
   > Bill can't see that it is, in fact, something significant to them.
   > He's too absorbed with his own view of how things should be.
    
    No.  It's just my opinion.  I explained it further in the note how
    I view everyone equally and how I don't like the restating the obvious.
    I know a woman when I see one, unless my anatomy class was wrong
    :-).
    
    But this is what really convinced me:
    
    >>As for calling a bunch of females in a meeting girls.  You bet I
    >>would!  That's just me, if I said anything else it wouldn't be me.
    
    >In other words, Bill can't make the compromises necessary to get
    >along with other people of different views.  That is, after all,
    >a significant part of dealing with people.
    
    Please refer to the above mentioned notes...I do state that I am
    willing to try and compromise my beliefs so that others won't be
    offended.  I still admit to not agreeing with the philosophy that
    being called a girl is an insult but I can alter my actions
    accordingly.
    
    
    The Rebel 
    (Who doesn't appreciate being flamed by someone who only reads what
    she wants to read.)

	 RE: .68

	 Well, Bill, I'm glad you took what I consider to be a
	 personal attack so well.

	 People read what they want to read...I've been repeatedly
	 told through mail that Bill and I have not been "condemned"
	 for our views....I'm too lazy to go back and pluck out the
	 5-7 replies where this did happen...I could also care less
	 who condemns me....I will believe what I wish to believe in.
	 
>    >                   -< Girls....Girls.....Girls..... >-
    
>    Hardly...I'm sorry if you took it that way.  My title was taken
>    from the Motley Crue song of the same title.

	 Hey, Bill!  I knew the song!  In fact when I read the note,
	 that tune was running through my head!  But what do you
	 expect from us young'uns? Motley Cr�e isn't exactly
	 everyone's type of music...but!  Not everyone can have taste,
	 eh?
	 

	 Next time, how 'bout we all read what is said, not what we
	 want to read.  And can the personal attacks, their not
	 welcome.


	 
	 "Minds are like parachutes, they only work when they're open."
	 
	 kath

    in re .69
    
    in re minds and parachutes...
    having known Chelsea through notes for a couple of years..
    
    she has one of the more open minds in the notes community..
    
    sometimes people get angry/hostile when criticisms hit to close
    to home.
    
    if someone is tempted to just blast another noter for their
    response...try looking inside and taking the time to figure
    out why you get so defensive and hostile..then step back a few
    paces and try and express your thoughts from the point of view
    of someone who doesn't agree with you.
    
    Bonnie

    
.70>    in re minds and parachutes...
.70>    having known Chelsea through notes for a couple of years..
.70>    
.70>    she has one of the more open minds in the notes community..

	 I wasn't directing it to Chelsea...I was directing it to this
	 entire note. Its gone down the gutter and all its acheiving
	 is a bunch of bickering and anger.  Its ridiculous...


	 kath

    I expected it...It happens when a bunch of BOXERs get on opposite
    sides of an argument.  There are alot of digs and bloodshed.  I
    still respect the opinions of the folks who disagreed with me.
    
    To all no hard feelings....
    
    The Rebel  (plus I got a neet new nickname because of it...:-) )
    

    Re: .68
    
    If we're getting historical, let's take a look at note 78.67, which
    I wrote on 29 March.  In it, I asked several questions, trying to
    understand why you believed what you did.  Your next response was
    in 78.69, in which you stated that you found this discussion rather
    amusing and implied that people were getting upset over nothing
    ("it's just a label").  Since people had already explained why they
    found "girl" to be inappropriate, you completely dismissed their
    concerns.  You then compounded your insensitivity with a statement
    along the lines of "If you were truly a woman, you wouldn't get
    upset over a mere label."  That is an insult to all women who prefer
    to be called women.  And the words "In my opinion" never appeared.
    
    So you see, Bill, I tried to be patient and understanding.  I tried
    again in 78.70.  But you were just laughing at the idea of the silly
    females getting their panties in a wad over a little label.  It amused
    you; you stated that several times.  Since the beginning of this
    discussion, you have failed to take the concerns of women into 
    consideration.  I tried to listen to your concerns, but you wouldn't
    tell them to me.  So I lost patience.  I see no reason to continue
    granting you consideration when you aren't interested in returning
    the favor.
    
    Now you've found that you can't just laugh this off; too many people
    are willing to let such an attitude lie unchallenged.  It's too late
    to cry foul now, Bill.  You had your chance to communicate in a
    reasonable and reasoning environment.  You had several chances,
    offered by several women.  You ignored them all, laughed them off.
    We got the message.  People frequently do unto others as has been
    done unto them.  If you feel you're being treated with a lack of
    consideration, perhaps it's because we've gotten the impression that
    consideration isn't very important to you.
    
    >It's just my opinion.  I explained it further in the note how I
    >view everyone equally and how I don't like the restating the obvious.
    
    The quoted phrase was "Big Deal, what's it to ya'."  That is one
    of the most insensitive responses I have ever heard.  Obviously,
    if someone is upset, that matter is something to them.  To them,
    this is a big deal.  That phrase is a classic example of that heinous
    political sin of invalidating someone's feelings.

    Why not go back even further...
    
    My first note(74.56) on the subject was just a questioning and a stating
    that I thought the whole thing was silly.  Obviously that was in
    my opinion.  I got blasted by you in .58 and I replied very casually
    stating how the "girls" I date don't mind being called "girls".
    Then I got blasted away at some more.  I wrote .66 because I was
    defending a barrage of people who disagreed with my opinion.  I
    was told that "I never knew a *woman*.", and other nasty things.
    
    I replied with the same force.  Of course I should have just ignored
    it.  But I did not like being condemned for my opinion.  I .66 I
    was just dishing back what I had already taken from you and others.
    
    When this note opened my first reply stated that I thought this
    was beating a dead horse.  Yet people continued to condemn me 
    because I find nothing wrong with the word "girl".  I then got 
    a bit irked and told my exact definitions of both words.  This
    brought down the house.  I am now forced to explain the whole 
    history of my reactions so that some who were too lazy to read
    everything won't have a kitten over it.  Now do I personelly attack
    you....No I don't.  If you don't like my opinion disagree with me.
    Do not attack.  It is unbecoming of a lady, woman or girl.
    
    

    I'm sorry that would be #78 not #74....
    
    The Rebel
    

    Re: .75
    
    >Get off my back will ya....
    
    Nope.  I don't just walk away from things I feel strongly about.
    
    >My first note(74.56) on the subject was just a questioning and
    >a stating that I thought the whole thing was silly.
    
    You also used the word "girlish."  Given the comments of some of
    the participants, that was, at the least, unwise.  By stating that
    you thought the discussion silly, you implied that the concerns
    of the participants were silly.  Invalidating concerns is dangerously
    close to invalidating feelings.
    
    >I got blasted by you in .58
    
    This is my 78.58:
    
    >Re: .56
    >
    >>what's in a name....
    >
    >Connotations/implications that feed attitudes/prejudices.  What
    >image does the name Irwin bring to mind?  Ethel?  Stanley?
    >
    >The same principles apply to a number of words.  Anyone who takes
    >communication seriously needs to be aware of the connotations of
    >words; that is the essence of diction.
    
    Since I wrote it, I naturally have a very definite context for this,
    but I'm having a hard time seeing how this could be interpreted
    as "blasting."  Those paragraphs, as far as I can tell, could as
    easily have come from a textbook on communications or writing.
    
    >When this note opened my first reply stated that I thought this
    >was beating a dead horse.
    
    Which, given the tone of your previous notes, carried the implication
    that you considered the opinions of some of the women silly and
    of no real value.
    
    >Yet people continued to condemn me because I find nothing wrong
    >with the word "girl".
    
    My impression is that they condemn not so much your opinion as your
    reasons for holding it.  Certainly I've found them less than
    persuasive.  Frankly, I find your definition of "woman" to be
    stereotypical in the extreme and I have little patience for such.
    
    >I then got a bit irked and told my exact definitions of both words.
    
    I find it's usually best to define terms in the beginning.
    
    >If you don't like my opinion disagree with me.
    
    I have.  Politely.  With honest questions.  Which were never answered.
    If something doesn't work, why continue doing it?
    
    >Do not attack.  It is unbecoming of a lady, woman or girl.
    
    Oh, dear, that is an unfortunate bit of self-expression.  First
    of all, women have historically been lectured plenty on what is
    "becoming" and those lectures can be reasonably interpreted as a
    way to "keep women in their place."  Even if this is not your
    intention, your phrasing has an unfortunate resonance.  This is
    reinforced by the fact that you omit "gentleman, man or boy."  This
    can lead to the impression that you believe an attack is acceptable
    from males, but not females -- the old double standard.  Again,
    this might not be your intention, but the interpretation is not
    unreasonable.
    
    Then there's the problem that some people, like myself, are not
    terribly concerned with what is "becoming."  Effective or appropriate,
    perhaps, but not "becoming."  Once it became apparent that you weren't
    interested in communicating, I stopped trying.  My more recent notes
    have shifted from the approach of trying to understand your point
    of view to dismantling the reasons behind your opinions.  This was
    not done to convince you to change your mind.  It was obvious that
    you weren't going to and of course the more aggressive approach
    wouldn't do it.  It was done because I disagree with you strongly
    enough that I'm not willing to let such statements go unchallenged.
    You have declined any systematic discussion of your opinions, choosing
    to simply make assertions repeatedly.  If I didn't agree the first
    time, I'm not going to agree the second, third, etc.  I can sort
    of understand how your opinions might have been formed, but I find
    them unrealistic.  With your emphasis on "youthfulness," you seem
    to have no value for seriousness.  From your definitions, you're
    dividing women into two extremes:  the youthful and the "too mature."
    That seems to ignore the complexity of the average human's character,
    and I really don't understand how you can simplify things to such
    an extent.

    Well, I guess you just put me in my place....
    
    Hey, my notes were never intended on slamming women (or as I like
    to say girls.).  From what I have read of your notes I get the
    impression that you are most definatly a extream femanist. That
    is just fine and I have no problems with that.
    
    Now that you have defended your note 78.58 you know how it feels
    to have you're reply taken in a different then you intended.  I
    suggested that your note was "blasting" me because I knew that you
    didn't think it did.  All my notes were not intended as an insult.
    Your paranoia and quickness to accuse me of being disrespectful
    to women makes me feel that you think that I am out just to anoy
    you and the people who want to be called "women".  I'm not...
    really...I'm a nice guy....I really do not want to fight about 
    this.  You have your opinions and I have mine.  I won't call you
    a girl and please stop accusing me of things I don't do.
    
    I have stated my opinion before...
    
    I'm just not a formal type of guy. To make a analogy....
    
    I will wear a Black Tie and Tails to a formal event, but I'd rather
    wear an old pair of Levi's and a Judas Priest T-Shirt.
    
    I will use the word "women" but I like the word girl.
    
    Now you said that you said that you don;t walk away from things
    you feel strongly about.  I don't either that is why I'm now walking
    away from this...
    
    Now why don't we just Value each others Differences and stop this
    bickering.  It's getting boring...
    
    The Rebel
    

         [ahem]
         
         Since I am one of the women who is/was ready to
         personally emasculate Bill [grin] for his attitude
         and more importantly, his delivery of his opinion...
         
         I would like to thank Chelsea for having at it with
         such calm and logic.
         
         AND....
         
         Mr Aikins, I would like to compliment you on handling
         yourself quite well under fire. Your reponse here
         was much more reasoned and sensitive...maybe you
         should try the approach more often. 
         
         Melinda

    Re: .78
    
    >Well, I guess you just put me in my place....
    
    I doubt it.
    
    >From what I have read of your notes I get the impression that you
    >are most definatly a extream femanist.
    
    Then you haven't been paying attention in womannotes.
    
    >Now that you have defended your note 78.58 you know how it feels
    >to have you're reply taken in a different then you intended.
    
    Oh, no, I knew that already.
    
    Did you really consider that "blasting" or were you just setting
    up a point?
    
    >Your paranoia and quickness to accuse me of being disrespectful
    >to women makes me feel that you think that I am out just to anoy
    >you and the people who want to be called "women".
    
    It took me from 29 March to 2 April to accuse you of being
    disrespectful of women.  Paranoia, of course, is a subjective
    evaluation.  Your guess about what I think isn't too far off, given
    your definition of "woman."  You have no respect for "chest-beating
    feminists," you believe me to be one and you probably believe several
    of the other participants to be so as well.  So I don't think it's
    too paranoid to suspect that you're being deliberately inflammatory.
    Then you find out that your tactics have gotten you embroiled in
    a heavy-duty controversy that you'd rather not have to deal with,
    so you start looking for ways out.
    
    >I'm just not a formal type of guy.
    
    "Woman" is not a formal word.
    
    >Now why don't we just Value each others Differences
    
    Because, while I can understand stereotypes, I'm incapable of valuing
    them.      

'you are most definatly a extream femanist. ... paranoia ...'

Alkthough I have never had the pleasure of meeting Chelsea in person, in notes I
have always known her to be concise and accurate, calm, methodical, and logical.
Certainly not paranoid. ... Well, maybe fanatical :-), but everyone has issues
that they are willing to push a little further.  If you think Chelsea is an
extreme feminist, you don't know nothing.

Your notes, on the other hand, IMO, have been vague, inaccurate, slanted, and
dismissing of other people's notes.  Not good communications *whatever* you are
trying to communicate.  Congratulations, you are on the way to Noteriety with
the likes of EDP & Rik Sawyer (sorry ric! :-)) 

If it is any consolation, I've been right where you are right now... arguing
about whether or not calling a female 'girl' was appropriate or important. I
would guess that every man who appreciates the opposite sex as people in their
own right comes up against the problem eventually.  Some accept the solution
easily, and some need to have it pounded into their heads and have every thing
explained to them.  I am one of the later, as you are.  But eventually I
realized that it doesn't matter what I want to call someone; it's common
courtesy to call people what they wish.  Anything less then allowing people to
label themselves is a power trip.

Females don't seem to have to confront the problem...  although they do
'educate' others.  Men who don't care really won't get into the arguement and
don't appreciate females as people anyway. 

So... just hang in there and keep your ears open...

Jim.

>But eventually I
>realized that it doesn't matter what I want to call someone; it's common
>courtesy to call people what they wish.

         Isn't that exactly what everyone has been saying all along!?!
         For goodness sakes!  Bill and I just have a different idea of
         what we initially might call someone!  Of COURSE if someone
         is offended by it, we'll call them what they want! THAT,
         people, has been stated, by Bill and by me, from the
         beginning but you all seem to have disregarded that point! 

	 I happen to agree with Bill in that I think its way silly to
         get so worked up over a label!  WE have the RIGHT to think
         someone's silly for it!  *BUT* have we ever told them they
         *should* change?  No!!!!  Did they tell us to change? Yes!!!!
	 
	 No matter how crass and abrasive Bill's notes were, I agreed
         with every bit of it!  It was quite obvious to me that Bill
         was giving his opinions and his thoughts AND HIS DEFINITIONS!
	 But then again we all read what we WANT to read!  Chelsea's
	 notes took the words Bill had said and twisted them to her
	 way of thinking.  Take for example  the quote about women
	 being boring.  Chelsea took that to mean that Bill was
	 devaluing any of these women that felt that way.  *I* took it to
	 mean that he would find someone with that attitude very
	 boring...so would I!  That does NOT mean that woman is a
	 boring individual!  JUST TO US!


         Now the point I am going to bring up here (after I calm down
         a bit) is!  How the hell do Bill and I become pychic so that
         we KNOW when someone wishes to be called something before we
         call them that?  Huh? As my default is different than most
         all other people in this note, and I am uncomfortable
         changing that default, just what do I do?  Huh?  Tell me how
         to be pychic so that I don't offend....because its not my
         intention to ever offend someone and I know its not Bill's
         either.


	 Please enlighten me as to
		1) Why you must analyze someone without just plan
	           asking them what they mean?

		2) How I can become pychic without changing my default?

		3) Did it ever occur to you that someone might be
		   offended by the word "woman"?  How would you handle
		   that situation and what would you think, to
		   yourself about that person?

	 Eagerly awaiting and still very p*ssed.

	 kathy
	 

    Ms. Aitel and Moderators....
    
    There is a policy of not copying any notes written from an author
    without the author's permission.  Please do not change my words.
    I have dropped this subject because of 1)my lack of interest and
    2) the constant attacks when I have tried to be congenial with my
    notes.  Please delete .81 for she has not only copied my note without
    permission, but also changed my words.  Now look who's calling sho
    mature.
    
    The Rebel

    Please...
    
    
    For the 2345735 th time I AM NOT badmouthing women.  Why do you
    insist on it.  If you don't liked to be called a "girl" then I won't
    call you it.  Alot of my friends (older and younger) would be insulted
    if I refered to them as a "woman".  They'd say "My grandmother is
    a woman....".  I never badmouth anyone for what sex, race or religion
    they are.  My beliefs are strongly based that all men (as in mankind
    including women/girls/females) are created equal.  As everyone who
    knows me can say, I am not a bigot.  (although I can do impressions
    of Archie Bunker :-) )  I'm really tired of being acused of this,
    nothing is further from the truth...
    
    Please put the damn horse to rest....It's boring...

    This note is now write locked. It may be reopened later, but it will
    take a while since some of the moderators are not available to discuss
    this with currently. We will let you know of our decision.
    
    Tamzen, co-moderator