Conference quark::human_relations-v1

In a different note, there was some back and forth bantering about 
hair color (do blondes have more fun, et al).

Now, imagine:

1. A blonde walks up to you and says "Blonde is beautiful".

2. A brunette walks up to you and says "Dark is beautiful".

3. A redhead walks up to you and says "Red is beautiful".

All other things being equal, would you conclude that any of the 
ladies is a racist?

Is the situation presented above flawed, or otherwise biased?

IF SO, ISN'T IT SOLELY IN OUR MINDS? 
    
-- Ron

         [Just my viewpoint here...]
         
         The "definition" embodied in the two statements
         is the same...neither being racist...each making
         a simple comment about something.
         
         The "connotation" that any individual reads into
         the statements is based on his/her relative position
         per being threatened/shocked/appalled by the implication
         that "being beautiful" infers ugliness on non-included
         groups.
         
         A black saying "Black is beautiful" *connotates*
         
         	...awareness and acceptance of the proud
         	heritage of a group of people and a willingness
         	to stand for that pride...
         
         	...or...
         
         	...stridency and aggressiveness related
         	to the emergence of a power group based on
         	national background...
         
         ...depending on whether you are *threatened* by
         Blacks...
         
         A white saying "White is beautiful" *connotates*
         
         	...a healthy resurgence of pride...
         
         	...or...
         
         	...a statement of white supremacy....
         
         ...depending on whether you have ever been in a position
         to have had negative experiences with this phenomena.
         
         When there is no *person* around to *interpret* your
         remarks...the answer to your question is a simple...
         "No, there is no difference. Each is equally
         non-judgemental." 
         
         When there are *people* around who must assimilate
         the remark and react to it based on their own
         experiences and beliefs....there is no simple answer.
         Sometimes yes, sometimes no....depends.
         
         Melinda

         

    
    Here's a twist, I see no racism.  I do see an indication that maybe
    the people are simply expressing an positive opinion about themseleves.
    What's wrong with that?
    
    Now, what was wrong for the cases presented?
    
    I feel the cases are overly simplistic.  They have validity if the
    context is, first think of sexist/racist, then do these statments
    evoke a specific response?  In that case the response would be
    different.  This is also called preconditioning.  My initial reaction
    was predicated by how _I_ react to things like that.  The author
    asked his question almost after the fact, so I read the statments
    and then read the question and the reaction was "what the heck?".
    As you read this you can see that the initial presentation
    preconditioned me to react totaly differently.
    
    john
    
    
    

    "All things being equal", in a colorblind, non-racist society, your
    statement might not be flawed.  However, in the context of American
    society (as well as most other societies), one must look at the
    question in historical perspective.
    Whiteness, historically connotates goodness, rightness, purity.
    Blackness on the other hand has always connotated badness, darkness,
    forbidden.  "Black is beautiful" mentioned by either race is a
    statement against the traditional connotations.
    

    Shakespeare once said, "There is no good, there is no bad.  Thinking
    makes it so."  -  (something like that)
    
    
    They are only words.  The environment you speak a "thing" in can
    make the difference, that is, the "thought pattern" of a group,
    etc, around you.
    
    Dwight

      The phrases have meaning beyond the simple string of words
      in the context of America today. With the phrase "Black is
      beautiful" an entire racial group is trying to validate themselves
      in a society which has historically invalidated them. The phrase
      "white is beautiful" makes me think of neo-nazies and skin-heads.
      It's seems similar to a rich person saying "rich is beautiful" in
      a world where millions starve. It may be true but it displays at
      the very least a certain insensitivity to reality. liesl

    <<< Note 708.8 by ANT::ZARLENGA "it was like a pit bull on steroids!" >>>
                   -< all the little biases come into play >-
    
<    	People view the statement in light of the source, and your example
<    of the rich person plays on prejudice against those that are rich.
<    
<    -mike z

      But Mike, the words are colored by the source. Words are symbols
      and symbols are meaningless out of context. It does make a
      difference who says something, just as it makes a difference when
      and where something is said. If a man says "come here and give me
      a kiss" it makes a WORLD of difference which man says it. From one
      it may be a welcome invitation and from another a threat. The
      words themselves haven't changed but how I feel about it sure has.
      liesl

    Re: .10
    
    In isolation, yes.  In context, not necessarily.  If prejudice against
    "worse-off" class is prevalent is the speaker's context, then assuming
    prejudice is not unreasonable.  Also, the origins of the statements
    might be of interest.  If one statement originated as a response
    to the other, then that might provide some implications about the
    statement's intent.

Wouldn't it also be true that : 'If prejudice against "best-off" class is
prevalent is the speaker's context, then assuming prejudice is not
unreasonable'?

Jim.

         Oh well....what the h***, I have been good for at
         least 10 days....[grin]
         
         [ahem]....Shield up...stun gun full force...
         
         Isn't PREJUDICE reasonable? {waitwaitwait}.....
         
         How can any of us say with any honesty that what
         we *hear* when others speak is not at least somewhat
         tinged by what we *expect* to hear, or what we may
         have been *taught* to hear?
         
         I *am * a woman, so when the ever-so-old-boy boss
         says to me...."We won't be able to afford your training
         this quarter..." and the "guy" in the next offcie
         gets his....well I guess I am "prejudiced" about
         what went on....but the statement in and of itself
         is unbiased...
         
         And what about a little kid who spends all his growing
         up years being taunted by whites?  Isn't he prejudiced,
         and doesn't he have a right to be?
         
         *I* think [all by myself with no supporting evidence
         at all...sigh] that the important issue is how we
         all deal with our prejudices....whether we let them
         run us...whether we recognise them at all....not
         whether we *have* them....I think we all have them
         in one form or another...
         
         It seems to me that its when we *have* a prejudice
         and we are able to function honestly in spite
         of it....that we proove something. *Saying* prejudice
         is wrong prooves nothing...and I think is probably
         false to begin with....*Living* in a manner that
         denies the influence of prejudice prooves that
         regardless of how *I* feel, I *know* I should act
         this way...and do it.
         
         Melinda              

    	I agree with Melinda (.13) - prejudices are common in most,
    if not all, people. To deny it is either naive or untruthful.
    
    	What counts, is not what prejudices we may have picked up, but
    rather what we do withthem. If we let them influence us to negative
    behavior - obviously we have a problem. However, if we are able
    to rise above them in dealing with others, they are not a problem.
    
    	We are a composite of what we were born with, and what we've
    picked up since then - and more often than not, we pick up some
    negative stereotypes or prejudices. The truly evolved person still
    has
    	these stereotypes or prejudices, but he/she does not allow them
    to influence their manner of relating to others.
    
    	Just my personal beliefs - no supportive evidence available.
    
    
    		Guy B.
    
    

   <<< Note 708.10 by ANT::ZARLENGA "it was like a pit bull on steroids!" >>>

<    	 o  a member of the 'better-off' class makes a positive statement
<    		about his 'better-off' status (eg: "white is beautiful")
<    
<    	 o  a member of the 'worse-off' class makes a positive statement
<    		about his 'worse-off' status  (eg: "black is beautiful")
<    
<    	It seems to me that if you're going to assume prejudice in sit-
<    uation #1, then you should also do it in #2.  Yes?  No?
<    
<    -mike z

      Mike, yes, and no. (How's that for fence sitting?) Yes, you can
      assume certain prejudice, but you could be very wrong about its
      form.

      Words,sentences and phrases are a gestault with a meaning greater
      than the individual words. We can not separate these words from
      the context of the culture in which they are spoken.

      In the USA, in the 1980s, these words have a deeper meaning than
      their face value. To deny that is not accepting certain truths
      about the society we live in, it is not an equal world for people
      of color and the majority of persons I hear saying the equivalent
      of "white is beautiful" are of the neo-nazi, KKK, white supremist
      ilk. Obviously, my prejudice colors how I hear the phrase just as
      the speaker's prejudice colors how they mean it.

      Let me ask you a question, given that our communication (yours and
      mine) is strictly written, do you have a different impression of
      me due to the way I construct my sentences and spell my words than
      you would if I did it differently? Even if the words were (in
      effect) the same? Would the meaning change? Would your perception
      of it change? Does my being female give you a different background
      assumption about why I say things? Would the same words be
      different from a man? From a person senior to you, or junior? I
      say that all these things affect the meanings of words. liesl