Conference quark::human_relations-v1

RE: .0

You know its very hard to love someone, and not have that love returned.

You can do several things...  You can accept it and get on with your life, 
or you can pine away and make their life and your life miserable.  I've 
done both... I'd recommend the first over the last suggestion any time :-).

I would recommend that you do several things...  first being get your mind 
off the situation.  Guess what?  Thats the hardest thing to do and the 
easiest to be said.  BUT IT CAN BE DONE.  Lets see, how can you do that?
Well..  lots of ways...  How about?:

	- Become a Big Brother to a needy kid.  Talk about having someone
	  to love that will give and give back... Sure its not someone
	  you can take to bed, but it is someone you can love, do things
	  with and be loved back.

	- Go back to school. With DEC paying for 100% of schooling (in your 
	  line of work) and 80% of books, it is absolutely foolish for 
	  anyone NOT to be in school... If need be take two subjects.
	  Nothing like going to school with loads of homework to do and 
	  lots of studying to do to take your mind off of loneliness.  Won't 
	  make it go away, but boy will it sure give you other stuff to do
	  (especially if you take Stats)

	- Take up a new line of hobby, and work towards getting good at 
	  it...  Lets see, I've learned how to play the piano, and how to 
	  ice skate after my last two breakups...  I figure if I ever get 
	  serious and break up again I better be able to afford flying lessons 
	  :-)...  no it doesn't have to be an expensive hobby, but try 
	  something new and strive to get really good at it...

	- Put an ad in the singles notes conference...  You'll wish you 
	  never did :-)....  ever try dating 20 people at once...  you'll have 
	  absolutely NO time for yourself.

	- Go back to doing something you did before you started dating. Was 
	  there an old friend you let the friendship slide?  If so, send that 
	  persona card, reestablish old roles.

The general thing is, just try to take your mind off of her, and 
concentrate on you.  

Also.. know what happens when you aren't actively looking for someone to
have in your life?  You find someone...  Take it from someone who knows.

Take days one day at a time.  If it is meant to be it will be. It may take 
years, you may get back together, and you may discover that it wasn't what
you really thought it was.  Thats okay too... Or you may discover that the 
time apart was what you really needed to grow together...  stranger things
have happened...  Remember, that you are not alone... use your friends to 
lean on...  real friends don't mind...


Gale

    P.S. You may also want to think about talking with a therapist on
    how to control the jealous streak in ya... so it doesn't trip you
    up the next time around... its okay to be possessive, jealous, etc,
    as long as you know how to keep it in check....

    All I can say is it is hard to let go of someone you really love...you
    think that your world is going to come to an end.....but it does
    not because time does heal all wounds.  My advise is to tell her
    how you feel, and if no avail, let go.  If you don't, your mind
    will play games with you, not to mention it could put you in a state
    of depression.
    
    As far is being good friends, it is kind of a tough situation when
    you are in love with the person, because it will only stir up old
    feelings.  My advise is to break off all ties.....oh yeah, its a
    toughie.....but you will thank yourself in the long run.
    
    I like Gale's advise....try the singles conference, or go to a great
    dance club with a bunch of friends and ask every girl that catches
    your eye to dance......have fun, and cheer up!!  Things always happen
    for the better...
    
                                        Lynne S.

	Hi,

	This happens to *everyone* at least once in their life. Glad to hear 
that you are still friends; for some, that status cannot be maintained after a 
"breakup". 

    	>Well, I have this problem, I can't let go and I'm scared.  

	That's a big step, ya know, for you to have already said "*I* have 
this problem" - most people would believe that "the problem" is not theirs at 
all - it's the "other persons" problem and the cause of "me" feeling this way
is "them"! That you recognise this important aspect of the way things are is 
applaudable. You're half way there!

	>I shut them both off, and it's because I'm hoping and feel guilty. 

	It's common for one to be rather inaccessable by "interested others"
when one is upset over a recent lost love affair. You know that when one's
heart hopes for something in particular, it also feels thwarted by considering
something different. That's where the "guilt" feeling comes from. Yes, being
in this state is scary and it can *seem* that there is no end to it. But the
heart, even with it's feeling based emotions, is still intelligent, and will
eventually realize that the hope it's decided on is futile. In due time, your
feelings *will* change and you'll find that "forever" was just a figment of
your imagination.  
 
	>I just want her back or let go forever. 

	Sounds like a request for an "all or nothing" situation to me. What
would you do if she said: "OK, I'll go out with you, but I still want to see
my old boyfriend"? Would you take the opportunity to show her how together a 
person you are, despite what she chooses for herself? Or would you go 
careening into the Great Gutter of Life, where the myraids of Life's losers
dwell? Those who couldnt face themselves, when life gave them the opportunity
to face and go through their _own_ feelings and to "grow".

 	>that's what she wants, she told me.  
	
	Then it sounds like she has made her choice, doesnt it? Shall you
continue to "spin your wheels" and "exist in misery"? It's been a year and 
I've been all_hung_up over someone for *that* long, so when are *you* going to
choose something different for yourself? Something different in terms of how
you are doing, in general? It is your choice, you know, to determine how you 
feel. Ideally, that's independant of what another - any other - chooses for
themselves. You can simply _choose_ to be happy. Right now. Do it.

	When you're able to make this choice, You Wouldnt Believe the 
Difference that makes on how another person sees you. What usually happens, is 
that the person "who made the break" comes back to you, cause it's really a
"new you" that is seen. But, proverbally, it's "too late" as your good feeling
comes from *inside* now, and, "you dont need them anymore" just to be happy 
with yourself. What a waste, right? Not at all!!!

	It was as perfectly timed as the next step in your growth could be;
all you have to do is take it, accept it, be responsible for it and let it 
grow within you. This is an event in your life that is "trully yours"!

	Joe Jas

       All I can really say to this person is already said.
    But what I would like to relate is my ow expierence, Like you, but
    the sexes reversed, girl meets boy, 13 years older we(I) had great
    onversations, talked the night away, shared music, already had the
    same friends as that was how we met. We spent Monday-Wed totally
    apart, due to working times, mine was 1st shift and he was second
    shift. By the time we had bought and moved into our new home, had
    our "wedding of our dreams" we both realized it was a mistake. 
       We both realized if we had waited and let the other do whatever
    they had to do with out crowding, we might have realized this without
    gettig married first.
       Follow .0's advice get active with other things that will totally
    occupy your mind. If she doesn't feel the need for your love but
    feels the need for your friendship the question is CAN You handle
    this type of relationship?
        Good luck with these replies and remember that you must live
    your life for you first and then everybody else for you are the
    man you must face in the mirror and get with and sleep with every
    day nobody else has to.  
    
    
    Lisa

    Perhaps you might be interested in the book "Women Who Love Too
    Much".  Even though it was written for women, I think most of the
    issues/suggestions/cases apply to men, also.  It might be of some
    help, and it pulls no punches in ways in which one can "self-cure"
    and get on with their life.
    
    Believe me, if you use the suggestions the previous noters have
    given, I think you will find it getting easier to put your mind
    on yourself and your future, not on her/yourself and your past and
    fantasies for the future.
    
    So many of us have been where you are now, and we do feel for you.
    But we managed to survive and get on without that person, and although
    it was hard work and we probably went through what seemed like h*ll,
    for most of us--myself especially--we are stronger and know
    *much better* what we want in another relationship and how to handle
    one if it happens.  

    Marilyn
    

    I didn't see this mentioned, I know it's been most helpful for me.
    
    You likely have a hundred thoughts running around in your head.
    You can't sort them out to make sense of them, thus utter confusion.
    I suggest writting things out. Write her a letter, tell her how
    this is making you feel, tell her what she's meant to you, write
    anything you want, without hesitation because you don't ever have
    to send it to her.
    
    Put into black & white the reassons you "can't live with out her".
    Read the list. Are the points really true? Probably not. But they
    will be much clearer sitting on a paper in front of you rather than
    clogging your brain.
    
    You might even find that writing out your troubles will bring some
    releif. Once the words are out a weight is off your shoulders. 
    
    Organizing your thought will help you deal with them easier. 
    
    And after you've worked that out (takes a while, takes time). Then
    go back into the "market" with your confidence in tact, a bit brused
    but in tact.

    Things really really do work out for the best,
    
    Gail

    Re .0  
    
    	I'm not sure if anyone has said this but...you can't stop loving
    someone...honestly...when I first read your note my heart almost
    stopped...It sounded so familiar...Five years ago I fell for this
    guy who's eight years older than I...we worked great together and
    enjoyed each others company...he moved away...I was crushed but
    tried to forget him...no go...Around our Birthdays I'd go crazy
    (They were a week apart)...it took some major doing on my part not
    to get in touch with him THIS year...I measured every other guy
    against him...(screwed up my social life in that respect)...But the
    point is, is that I still love him...as a good friend...It 
    doesn't happen overnight (Heck, it took me five years and 1000 
    miles:-) but, I was a stubborn cuss about it...Don't forget her
    (She meant alot to you) but don't dwell on her either, for your 
    own sake...You can do it...but, when you're ready.
    
    
    		Good Luck :-)
    
    
    		    - Donna
    

I have a hard time stopping loving someone...  And I'm not sure that I want
to...

The long term relationships that I've had have each taken me over a year to
break.  And that's just the time between the decision to seperate and the point
where I can think about have a serious relationship again... 

There are several people that I still love very deeply, and I always will, and I
don't want to change that.  But I can't be with them the way that I might like
to, and my life continues onward with or without them.

Jim.

    I've been there and the hurt was a horrible thing to behold.  I
    had to talk to people, write things down, scream, cry, walk, be
    dragged out to meet new people, get used to the situation.
    
    For me it took time.  I had to finally accept that things were the
    way they were and that life goes on.  And then I discovered I was
    okay.
    
    What *I* say won't make things magically terrific.  What *you* do
    will make all the difference in your world.  Everyone before me
    has given you some great suggestions, and I'd like to add my vote
    to them.
    
    On top of that I'll add that we're here when you need us!
    
    Never lose the love, especially for YOURSELF!!
    
    Carol
    

    There's an aspect of this romance stuff that is so common that the
    shrinks have a name for it... approach-avoidance.
    
    
    The dance has many forms... the "excitement of the chase" phenomenon,
    the one where she adores you but you have reservations but then
    as soon as you overcome yours she backs away, getting married and
    suddenly the one who seemed to want that most starts withdrawing.
    
    It's kind of like we really want someone close when that's missing,
    but then when closeness shows up we start feeling crowded and even
    overwhelmed.
    
    There's almost a kind of attachment in oneself for the feeling of
    poignant yearning for what you can't have -- when they say they
    don't want to be with you anymore.  And the converse when they adore
    you and can't get enough -- that you are almost bored... after all
    what's the possible value of something you can have so easily....
    
    
    PLEASE NOTE -- I am not making right wrong judgements about this...
    just trying to explore some observations.
    
    
    You might try taking a look at what's keeping you attached.  Is
    it truly a love for the person as she is?  Since "how she is" is
    not wanting to be with you as lover, can you accept or include that
    about her?  Or might you be stuck on the hurt or a yearning for
    something lost or unattainable?
    
    Are you addicted to falling in love?  Is she?
    
    
    
    
    Tough stuff... hard to deal with for some of us....  There is a
    pretty good little book that I have found useful -- "How to Survive
    the Loss of a Love."  It has three authors and it is in paperback
    and currently available.  Suggests some exercises and gives a good
    outline of the stages you can expect to go through.
    
    Have courage... (despite Shakespeare and others) no one evr really
    died from it.
    
    R.
    

    Re: .11
    
    This "dance" is also described as "The Switch" in Dr. Judith Sills'
    book "A Fine Romance".  Well worth reading.
    
    
    I agree with most of the advice given here, though I would not want
    anyone to go overboard in filling their life so much with activities
    that they have no room for making new social contacts.  However, I
    want to particularly side with Jim Baranski's observation that you
    don't HAVE to stop loving her, even if you can't have a life together.
    I've been in similar situations, and I've simply let those involved
    know that they have my love, whether it is returned or not, and that
    they'll always have a special place in my heart.  Then I get on with
    my life. 
    
    				Steve

>	I just want her back or let go forever.

Everybody has been so supportive, telling you to hold on and how to
forget her and, in one case, how to not forget her but learn to live
with the pain and not mind it. I am going to tell you what one 
particular guy did to get his girl friend back.

Before I start, I need to tell you that it's very difficult to do.
You have to sit down and discuss this with yourself, to make sure
that she's worth the effort. The main reason, as you'll discover in
a moment, is that it requires absolute, ironclad, self control. If 
you can't calmly smile when it hurts bad, maybe this is not for you.

I also need to tell you that the scheme may **seem** somewhat
devious, even though it isn't, really. You will be
saying/acting/projecting BOTH the truth AND nothing but the truth,
BUT definitely not the whole truth. Some people wear their hearts on
their lapel. If you are one of those and simply can't keep your
thoughts (and especially, your FEELINGS) to yourself, just forget
it. 

Are you still with me? Good. Because you must be warned that this
method is not quick, either. It will take loads of patience and
perseverance. Give it at least six months, maybe more. 

Last, but not least: this is not a sure fire thing. For those who
can pull it off, it may work some of the time. It is GUARANTEED TO
FAIL if you do not --very, very accurately-- follow it through. 

Phase one: home work. You start by sitting down and formulating for
yourself a list of the things she liked in you. Then, a list of the
things she did not like in you. Finally, a list of the things she
likes in the competition, which you do not possess.

I believe some people prefer to actually write these lists on a
piece of paper. That way, you can make sure all three lists are
complete and arranged in order of importance. You can then study
all three lists until you know EXACTLY what are the things she likes
you to do and the things you should NEVER do in her presence.

Based on this knowledge, define a behaviour pattern in detail. 

Phase two: exploration. Start dating SEVERAL DIFFERENT WOMEN. Try to
look at your new dates as you would look at her and practice on them
your newly defined behaviour. 

Yes, I know: you are going to say that your new behaviour only
applies to **her** and no one else; that if she didn't like (say)
your acting jealous, you are not going to be that way with a new
date anyway, so what's to practice. 

But that's not true. Because, even with a stranger on a first date,
you would probably tend to exhibit (same example) at least
possessiveness, if not outright jealousy. Learn to recognize the
unwanted tendencies and control them. If you have thoroughly done
your homework, you will have at least half a dozen brand new
behavioural items to look at. Learn to exercise control over
yourself - it's going to be a lot easier with strangers than with
the one you are yearning for. 

During this phase, you are not just practicing, but also exploring
your own capabilities. While you are having those dates, try to be
aware of what's happening and how you are responding to it. 

BTW, it makes no sense to make passes during those dates (unless a
lady sort of insists  :-)  ). Try to develop friendships, not
relationships. 

All this is going to take a couple of months or so. During this
time, if you happen to meet her, or maybe talk over the phone, you
will no longer act or project the image of her ex. You will always be
joyously convivial. You will always be good to her. You will always
be supportive of her. 

Absolute no-nos: you will never be in a bad mood. You will never
bring up the past relationship. You will never mention her new
boyfriend/fiance. If she brings these subjects up, you will be
easygoing, very friendly and, in good humor, change the subject very
soon. If she happens to know about your own new dates, you will not
make a big thing out of it. 

Needless to say, if there is pain in your heart, she will not see it
in your eyes. If you are dying to grab her, you will flash a
friendly, mischievous smile instead. The upshot of it all is this:
for her, seeing you/talking to you will be  F U  N . 

As you go along, you will discover that you are getting better at
this. Dating others will sharpen your skill. 

Phase three: implementation. After several dates with several ladies
(and whether you have seen her in the meantime or not) you are ready
for the first meeting. Do not make it 'a date'. Rather, arrange an
hour or two of being together, without interruptions. Make it as
informal and as non-threatening as possible. Lunch is good. An
afternoon movie works, too. Or, maybe she can help you shop for 
a big ticket item (depends on what she likes. Carpets, tiles, car, 
whatever).

During this 'first' meeting, follow all the suggestions above for
the interim period. Also, exhibit you newly defined behaviour TO
PERFECTION. In addition, try to bring her out, let her do the 
talking, talk only as necessary to carry on the conversation. 

As she talks, listen to her attentively, trying to mentally evaluate
your lists. Does any item come up that you neglected to include?
Take mental notice to include it later. Some items are subtle, you
will need to listen 'between the lines'. 

As you depart, tell her how much you enjoyed her company. But, NOT
as a man tells his girl friend, but, rather, as a person tells his
friend. In other words, continue to be non committal, but pleasant,
friendly and good natured. 

By now, she has enjoyed the meeting as much as you did, probably
more. Wait a week and see if you can arrange another. Then, a third.
Continue to follow the rules: new behaviour (continually upgraded,
as necessary), friendly, non committal, jovial, FUN TO BE WITH. Also:
never suffering, never complaining, never making a pass, never
spilling your guts. If she ever says how much you've changed lately,
behave as if it's mildly amusing and change the subject: it means 
you have been doing all right. 

She will eventually get to the point where she'd be looking forward
to your little meetings. 

All this time, continue to date others.

Phase four: the sting. In time, see if you can turn one of your
little, informal meetings with her, into a date. You'll be
nonchalant about it, since you want to leave the perception of a
close friend, NOT a suitor. What worked in the past: "Everyone says
we haven't remained good friends. Do let me take you to the party at
X's house. That'll show them". Or, laughingly, "I have just won the
Pulitzer Prize, but have no better friend to celebrate it with. Care
to have dinner with me? My treat, of course". 

Let one date lead to another. The new boyfriend is guaranteed to make
noises. Eventually, they will have a fight. You will be right there,
never saying a bad word about the other guy (you will be surprised
how mucho macho you will appear), but being strong and supportive
and understanding to the extreme. 

I can't tell you when is the right time to make a pass again, when
to ease up on the 'friend' aspect and move to the 'lover' one. But,
It's NEVER time to trash the lists. 

I would like to say that, eventually, she will be yours again. I 
can't. I **will** say that, depending on what the other guy does (he
may turn out to be nobody's fool) and the circumstances surrounding
her life, there is a chance she will. 

If so, you will still have some work to do. Taking your lists, you
will need to discuss with her each and every line, one at a time.
Don't tell her about the lists themselves, of course (until you are
married and have at least two kids). Just bring up the subjects, one
at a time. You will need to resolve every single behavioural item
that you had deliberately assumed, to your --and her-- satisfaction.
Otherwise, you will have her for a while, but you will not keep her.

By that time, the two of you will be close. Maybe she can make her
own lists and you can discuss these, too. 

-- Ron

                                                                        
    	re .13-
    
    	While your treatise on behavorial modification via willful control
    is well done and certainly a useful exercise for some people, I
    think it suggests something of rather terrible consequence, something
    that many other "programs" try to get away from.
    
    	The masking that you suggest of one's true feelings can be
    absolutely the worst thing for them to do. "Be on your best behavior"
    is the main thrust of your method, and where does this leave one's
    true self? It suggests that one's true self (and the behaviors which
    come from there) is that which is undesirable and therefore must be 
    repressed. Gee, where have I heard *that* before?
    
    	Other programs teach that what comes from this "true self" as
    far as emotions and feelings go *deserves* to be aknowledged and
    reflected back in a mutually admiring way with another person. What
    makes this true? Merely the fact that this "true self" and what
    comes from there is that of a *person*. Perhaps the greatest tragedy
    of humankind is that this fact is just "blown off" by so many; parents,
    teachers, friends *and* "girlfriends".
                                           
    	They also teach one to remove the masking *that they've created
    already* and let their real self come out from hiding! There's
    absolutely no reason for another to reject what is the essential you,
    unless that other has their own problems that perhaps "you" merely
    set in motion! Why would anyone "modify themselves" to compensate
    for a problem that trully belongs to somebody else? That's *their*
    problem.
    
    	While, as you've said, you method can work and may result in
    "getting the girl", but there also may be some other things that 
    happen, such as:
    
    	1. Never having the importance and significance of one's true
    feelings aknowledged and affrimed by another, they'll just stick
    around forever, waiting. The person may become obsessed with this 
    "willful control" of his behavior, because it will be a lifelong task,
    as his abandoned true feelings will come up again and again.
    
    	2. They get married thinking; "gee, this behavioral control stuff 
    really works! Who needs to express emotions? 'Just shown that you're
    better off repressing them!" and another "dysfunctional family" is born...
    
    	3. He someday realizes that he was only kidding himself by trying
    to control himself to such a degree. Who wants to work *that hard*
    just to be accepted by someone? Especially when that acceptance
    is deserved simply as a matter of fact! He decides that he'll no longer
    compromise himself in any way for another - any other - and the
    control_based_foundation of the relationship dissappears. Then what? 
                                              
    	Joe Jas

I wouldn't pay that cost for anyone.

Jim.

    He's not saying that, Joe.  Read the last part of note .13 again
    - it says that you discuss EVERY PART of those lists.  And she
    makes her OWN lists about what she could change, too.  
    
    I'd suggest such discussions take place BEFORE any serious moves,
    like marriage or living together, occurs.  I'd also take a good
    look at the lists before making any moves.  If there are items
    on the list that the other person hates but that are really 
    important parts of you, you've got to do some analysis of why
    you'd want to give them up forever.  For example, if you're really
    into hunting and she's a charter member of the Animal Protection
    League, maybe there's a problem that can't be solved.  If it's
    just something like her dislike of your leaving your filthy socks
    on your kitchen table, you probably can solve it.
    
    --L

    Joe,
    
    Although I had some of the same reactions to it (it did look like
    a "hard-wired" solution to me... ;-}), on reflection one thing that
    it does do is to make explicit what a lot of folks do in relationships
    anyway... but in a way that screws things up.
    
    We all put our best behavior forward... then sometimes, when we
    think we got 'em hooked (as it were), we suddenly drop the facade
    and now "guess what, honey... here's the *real me*!" (Yucccchhhh!)
    
    This way at least you set out to do that consciously... and then
    at some point really disclose yourselves to each other fully.  I'm
    not sure I'd ever "try to get someone back" with it... but I would
    seriously consider having the kind of sharing with someone that
    it suggests if I were getting serious.
    
    Randy
    

    
    	This list is created in an other_directed context - it's entries
    are entirely dependant on the_other's determinations and judgements.
    This is "by definition" an unhealthy way to percieve one's self.
    
    	While the method may build up to the revelation of one's true
    self in time, what's wrong with Randy's "Here I am! The real me!"
    being shown in the first place? ...Oh, I get it, were all such basket
    cases that anyone with any sense would run away hard and fast if
    we were to dare show our "real" selves.
    
    	Come off it! If someone can like, appreciate, and want to
    know you, just as you are, all inclusive of the quirks, character
    traits, habits, qualities, and problems that make up *you*, then,
    in my opinion, they're worth bothering with. Otherwise, you're
    wasting your time with them, trying to become acceptable to whatever
    arbitrary judgmental criteria they may choose to implement "this
    week". Someone could really 'run you round, if they were aware of
    your comittment to control behaviors that *they* essentially determined
    were "good" or "bad". 
                                  
    	Joe Jas
    

    re: .13
    
       I don't believe that you can make a person love you!  
                                                              
    This women says she is in love with someone else, then there
    really is nothing you can do now but get on with your life.  I know
    this is hard, believe me I am going through it right now, but I won't 
    change who I am or what I am in hopes that someone will love me, if they
    don't love me for who I am then they really don't love me.

    
    So hang in there, and have faith that you will find the right person.