Conference quark::human_relations-v1

         Hmmmm...
         
         I really had to think about this...thanks!
         
         You see, I live in the country and I guess I see myself
         as looking at folks the same way you do...so I was
         trying to see if I could identify those people who
         asked you those questions in "my" country setting...
         
         I am not sure if *my* perception of those people
         is any more accurate than yours...but I live with
         *them*...as you live with the city folks...so I thought
         I would share the view from the other side of the
         fence...FWIT...maybe somewhere inbetween there is
          a single word of real truth?
         
         Recognizing the color of someone's skin as an
         identifying characteristic is a far cry from inferring
         a derogatory conclusion based on that fact.  My New
         England Small Town Hicks identify their neighbors
         in many ways...all designed to nail down the exact
         identity of the subject in the fewest number of words...
         
         I noticed that when I moved into town...a particluar
         high school student was always identified as "Black".
         Since the "Jones'" moved in last year however, the
         high school student is now identified as the girl
         with the big voice and "Mr Jones" is that city fella
         with the 4wheel drive...Black no longer worked, so
         it was discarded.
         
         The country folks I live with are unabashedly curious
         and blunt...they say exactly what they feel and talk
         about exactly what they see....so if they *see* Black,
         they say "Black"...but any insult is solely in the
         mind of the listener...they merely report the fact.
         
         I have seen people take offense at their bluntness,
         and I have seen them react with total surprize...they
         do not understand why a simple observation should
         ellicit such a reaction...[and yes, to your other
         point...their humor is coarse...but it would be the
         same about their neighbor who had one of them fancy
         vasectomy's too...racism is certainly NOT their number
         one topic...they have too little opportunity to use
         it...grin]

         I have had the occasion to live in the city quite
         recently for a time...and I had much the same reaction
         for different reasons to return to my "country"
         
         I found the city dweller's ability to "fade" differences
         out to the point of catatonia an insult to my senses...
         and more of a defense mechanism than an arrival at
         universal understanding of common humanity...

         An exscuse NOT to see and hear and feel rather than
         an ability to perceive the singularity of us all...
         
         I guess I am suggesting that *you* perhaps did not
         see the total humanity of the "country" people and
         their motivations and their value system, and so
         perhaps misinterpretted at least to some extent the
         "connotation" of their comments...
         
         Just as *I* must have missed the intricacies of the
         the city folks that disturbed my by their attitudes.
         
         Perhaps *both of us* made some over generalizations?
         
         Melinda

    re .1
    
    I watched "The Wonder Years" last night and there was an excerpt
    of King's "I have a dream speech"...tears came to my eyes...
    
    Sorry I feel not noticing differences that people cannot control
    will make a better world.  I want to notice what people are and
    respect what they have done in their life.
    
    And my note 693.0 was a bit pompous...I haven't got it all down
    pat yet either...
    
    And one way I will get it down pat is by living in a community that
    has a good balance of people.  And choosing where I live will have
    to involve that brain making some comparisons about the people I
    see in the community.  And many suburban communities are not racially
    mixed because the people in that community don't want it!
    
    For years we have either justified our positions or we have done
    nothing about accepting people for what they are.  Writing a note
    in H_R is nothing but lip service...I believe living a life where
    a person's differences are unimportant and not worth discussion
    is the only answer.
    
    The solution is so overwhelming to me that I go from being pompous
    and preaching to completely at loss and so hurt that I cannot make a
    difference.

    I agree that we should try to not place too much emphasis on color
    and race.  But that is made all the more difficult when various
    people continually point out the fact that they are different. 
    When I was out sick yesterday, I saw a bit of Phil Donahue.  On
    his show was the Massachusetts state senator that wanted reparations
    (money) paid to every black person who is descended from slavery.
     Also on the show was at least one black person who was dead set
    against this.  In going through the audience, Phil allowed persons
    to speak their mind.  I was shocked at just how quickly the people
    became "militant".  There were at least 2 black women who were
    practically ready to condemm all white people at terrible.
    
    I was struck by the one panel member (all panel members were black)
    who attempted to state that unless the black community stops trying
    to point out that they are different, they will not be able to succeed
    as they might otherwise.  I had to agree with him.
    
    I try very hard not to hold color, race, etc. against people.  But
    when I hear people talking and acting in the manner I saw on the
    show, I get saddened and angry.
    
    Don't get me wrong.  The white people were also unhappy.  One person
    was Italian and asked about the discrimination against the Italians,
    Irish, Jews, etc.
    
    I guess my feeling is that the past is over.  Let us make every
    attempt to go forward on a level footing.  Don't discriminate, either
    for or against minorities or majorities.  Everyone is entitled to
    the best schooling the community is willing and able to pay for.
     Everyone is entitled to equal use of all city/town resources. 
    Everyone is entitled to the same opportunities, within reason.
    
    Ed..
    

    .3
    
    I am not talking about wiping the slate clean...I am talking about
    what I can do to make the situation better.
    
    If 100 years ago your grandfather was a wealthy landowner and the
    Commonwealth of Massachusetts took your ancestors property and it
    was discovered that the deal was illegal would you sue the state
    for some sort of compensation.  
    
    Or would you wipe the slate clean?

>    re .1
>
>    Sorry I feel not noticing differences that people cannot control
>    will make a better world.  I want to notice what people are and
>    respect what they have done in their life.

	And I feel that it is not the *noticing* that does the harm. It
	is the *reaction* to noticing that does.  In other words,
	perceiving that black is black or yellow is yellow, is not
	in and of itself a crime against brotherhood....what I
	choose to *do* about it ....may or may not be.

	To try to teach a child *not* to notice denies the child
	the truth of what his/her eyes see....It is like *not
	noticing* people in wheelchairs...or with CP....I have
	worked with those folks a lot, and to a person, none
	of them minded being noticed....what they did or did
	not mind was the reaction to that notice.

	Pretending reality does not exist does not help
	us or the reality....learning that reality is indeed
	alive and well....and *here* is the accepetable
	response....that might get us somewhere....
    
>    And my note 693.0 was a bit pompous...I haven't got it all down
>    pat yet either...

	Hah!....do we any of us?  I certainly would never claim
	to have made it....banana peels keep appearing whenever
	I boast of grace and style....[smile]
    
>    And one way I will get it down pat is by living in a community that
>    has a good balance of people.  And choosing where I live will have
>    to involve that brain making some comparisons about the people I
>    see in the community.  And many suburban communities are not racially
>    mixed because the people in that community don't want it!
 
	Yes, yes....and whoa a minute....[grin]

	"many suburban...." illogical argument objection #432...

	And "many...." are NOT....you proove nothing by such a comment.

	I am not talking "suburb" here I am talking "country".
	The sticks....a good 2 hours North of Boston and Civilization.

	Semi seriously, if you wish to select certain "suburbs"
	and show that the population of these communities has
	actively taken measures to prevent influx of other
	races/creeds/ect...then do so...but...

	#1...to group all suburbs into this category is grossly
	unfair and weakens the rest of your rather good
	argument by its weakness...

	#2...such a group would then also include racial communities such as
	China Town which in itself has striven for the same
	separation and certainly otherwise fits into your
	original group of discriminated against peoples...
	as only one example....

	#3...you come very close to treading on one of those
	"unalignable" rights that everybody has with this
	argument....all civil rights law addresses the "legal"
	responsibility of the "State" to provide equal and
	unpredjudiced opportunity...to people regardless of
	sex/race/religion....etc.

	It *very* carefully avoids trying to tell people that
	they must *believe* that this equality is good, or
	right, or just.

	You see, our constitution "guarantees" that we may "think"
	whatever we please....we just may not *take action* on
	what we think if it infringes on the rights of others as
	also guarenteed by Constitution or Law.

	I *agree* that thinking that people's differences are
	"beside the point" is *correct*...but that is a personal
	opionion only...and not defensible as such....I have to defend
	the argument elsewise....or perhaps loose the debate...see
	my point?
   
>    For years we have either justified our positions or we have done
>    nothing about accepting people for what they are.  Writing a note
>    in H_R is nothing but lip service...I believe living a life where
>    a person's differences are unimportant and not worth discussion
>    is the only answer.

	I agree....but you *seem* [IMHO] to be saying that alternative
	methods of living such a life...other than your chosen
	method...are somehow lacking in either committment or
	substance...I was merely pointing out in a round about
	sort of way that many people are doing what you are doing.
	They are just doing it differently....as *they* see best.

	We each have to decide how best to attack this issue
	of discrimnation...*if* we decide to attack it. I was
	trying to share another view of attack....namely....
	that because these folks I live with [town population
	was about 2500 last I knew...Charlie hadn't died so far...]
	are *so* without sophistication, they provide a wonderful
	environment to raise children in. I was pointing out
	that what you described as "discriminatory" could *well
	have been*...not necessarily....but in my town *would*
	have been....plain old small town nosiness and nothing
	more.

	My son visited his old "best buddy" of age 6mos - 5years
	yesterday. They have a new little baby....he is adopted and
	of a different racial background than the rest of the family.
	When asked about David...[the baby]...it never occured to
	Eric to include his skin color as a descriptor...when queried
	directly about this by his Grandmother [a first generation
	racial minority-type person]...he dropped her the best
	8-year-old stare and said...

	"Well, of course he's.......but he's a baby first."

	And went on with his Legos....

	But to her....*city* dweller in a fiercely protected racial
	minority section....it was of prime importance....because
	she strives to protect her separateness as a minority.

	I hope I have been clearer this time...I was really
	agreeing with you....just presenting a differing
	scenario....

>    The solution is so overwhelming to me that I go from being pompous
>    and preaching to completely at loss and so hurt that I cannot make a
>    difference.

	I rather think you *do* make a difference....a positive one.

	Melinda

    Thanks Melinda...
    
    And your son's comment to his grandmother indicates that you have
    made a difference also...
    
    Joyce

    There's a tension here between differentiation and integration...
    
    
    People want to be known... to make some kind of meaningful contact
    with others... and to do that they want and need to be known and
    acknowledged for their uniquenesses -- their differences, as it
    were.  "Oh you're just another x (man, black, oriental, DECie,
    etc.)..." doesn't do it for people.
    
    And people want to be included... including their "difference" since
    that is who they are.
    
    I didn't begin to really get this beyond an intellectual understanding
    until during this last Xmas season I received a number of invitations
    to events which were obviously intended for couples... "bring your
    SO."  My reactions -- negative, even hurt that the inviters were
    insensitive to my difference... i.e. that I am single -- made me
    take another look.
    
    When someone doesn't acknowledge our differences and include them
    in some way, it is likely that we will feel unrecognized and excluded.
    In order to integrate -- get with others -- we need to differentiate
    -- be known for what makes us special (of which race, gender, etc.
    are only some of the uniquenesses).
    
    I used to ascribe to the "colorblind" ideal... but I've come to
    see it much differently.  That my friend Bill is black or gay or
    whatever need not be a reason I judge him, but it has to be part
    of who he is when I relate to him... or I will not know him.
    
    R.
    

    re .7
    
    Please excuse my many replies...I am working this out with your
    help.
    
    I agree with what you say in some respects Randy...but I feel that
    to often our first action is based on a reaction to difference.
    I don't want my brain to have to evaluate a difference before I
    smile a friendly greeting.
    
    J

    
    Another fantastically thought provoking topic Joyce. I may have
    to complain to the moderators....:-)
    
    re: base note and other replies...
    
    Actually I prefer to look beyond the exterior characteristics
    and see "the person".  By the same token I'd like to be considered
    the same way. I don't want to be known or considered as Hank the
    white male, or Hank the italian-american, or Hank the conservative.
    I just want to be Hank, an american, your coworker, maybe your friend.
    
    It seems to me that as time goes on we're all getting more and more
    labels attached to us. And I worry that this stressing of our
    differences is a means to seperate and polarize us and perhaps
    foster the us-vs-them school of thought which I personally don't like.
    
    But please don't get me wrong, I do value and respect differences,
    heritages, etc. But I also kinda believe in the theory of
    the melting pot. 
    
    You know, I'm not sure if I expressed how I feel too well here.
    I may be working this out myself also.
    
    							Hank

    I have another difference which I would like to add to this discussion.
    
    To see someone of color and recognize that color without making
    further assumptions about that person based on what one
    thinks/reads/knows about people of color is the only honest way
    to react.  It is virtually impossible *not* to notice that someone
    is obviously physically different.  
    
    After all, if someone is in a wheelchair--that has to be a
    consideration in how one *sees* that person.  How one reacts to
    that physical disability--do you ignore them, talk or act as if
    they aren't quite mentally alert, or over-compensate by being so
    darn nice you cause them to develop "instant sugar diabetes", or
    do you treat them as you would if they were standing in front of
    you on two good legs?
    
    Now...how do you *see* older people?  Do you see the physical aging
    and make assumptions based on all the old tales about the aging
    and the elderly?  That because they are older, they are---choose
    among these---conservative, stodgy, set-in-their-ways, narrow-minded,
    sexless or 'dirty old wo/men', physically slow, unable to understand
    the world of today---just to name a few.
    
    Or worse--do you patronize them by thinking them "cute" or tell
    them how terrific you think they are when they are doing things
    which *you* think is your own province, like being an outdoors person,
    or going to college, and telling them how "nice it is that you are
    keeping busy".   Which implies they are doing whatever just to keep
    death from the door!
    
    Marilyn
    
    
    

"I used to ascribe to the "colorblind" ideal... but I've come to see it much
differently."

Hmmm...  Quite true...  Assuming everyone to be 'normal' is not quite the way to
go.  How does it feel to be homosexual, and be 'come on' to as if you are
hetrosexual?  (I'm curious, I'd really like to know...)  Wouldn't it be better
to accept the fact that they are homosexual?

I say an interesting analysis of Valuing Differences which essentially said that
it was an involuted form of bigotry; that making the pre-judgement that everyone
was the same to avoid making the pre-judgement that anyone different is inferior
is doing an end run around to accomplish goal admirable (preventing pre-
judgement), but doesn't address the root of the problem, that pre-judgement is
wrong! 

*sigh*  Wouldn't it be a lot nicer is we could just get people to stop pre-
judging other people??? 

Jim.

    In my opinion, Valuing Differences begins with recognition and
    acknowledgement of the difference. If you do not see the difference,
    how do you know to value it. If you ignore the difference, you place
    no value on it. We tend to ignore the things we do not like.
    
    Sue 
    
    

    
    I've a couple of questions then..
    
    Which differences matter? Are some differences to be assigned more
    value than others in our present society?
    
    
    
    
    ps. I don't mean these questions to sound antagonistic. I ask
    seriously. 				
    
    							Hank

    Re: .13
    
    I'm not sure which differences matter, but I'm sure that some
    differences are seen as more important than others -- by both society
    in general and individuals.  Differences that reflect accepted values
    are, in turn, more acceptable and more important to encourage. 
    Differences that run counter to accepted values are likely to be
    discouraged.
    
    An interesting case in point is the way selfishness is perceived.
    In an environment that stresses cooperative action, selfishness
    will be discouraged.  In an environment that stresses self-reliance
    and self-sufficieny, selfishness is more likely to be encouraged
    to a degree.

    re. 13
    
    What differences matter to you?  Or, to put it another way, how
    is it and for what do you wish to be known to others?
    
    

    re: 15
    
    See my note .9. 
    
    Now I'd like to direct the question back to you.
    What differences matter to you? How do you wish to be known?
    
    							Hank

    
    The human brain is the apparatus with which we think we think.
    
    Will our brains start shrinking now that machines do our thinking?
    
    Nowadays most brains are suffering from chronic unemployment.
    
    The human brain is like a freight car, guranteed to have a certain
    capacity but often running empty.
    
    If there is a substitute for brains it has to be silence.
    
    
                                   RM