Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    
    	Harassment is the deliberate attempt to negatively provoke someone.
    For example, knowing full well that someone does not wish to hear
    your voice, you call and call anyway. You deliberately provoke them
    in an attempt to elicit a negative response. That is harrassment.
    
    	You may even believe that you're trying to get a positive response,
    but that is not what's really happening, in the case of harrassment.
    
    	Joe Jas
    

	Well, I happen to be friends with my ex-boyfriend.  After the 
    initial breakup, I gave it some time, then eventually called him.  We
    spoke for a while, caught up, etc.  A few weeks later, I called him
    again.  I then decided that I wasn't going to call him again - if he 
    also wanted the friendship, he would call me.  And he did!  We still 
    keep in touch.

    	I think it's only harrassment if the other person doesn't want the
    friendship and you do.  Friendship is a two-way street, and if you try
    to force it, *that* could be considered harrassment.  If you're the one
    doing all the calling, you need to stop and think if what you really
    have is indeed a friendship.  Different people have ways of dealing
    with breakups - some never want to see/hear from their ex again, others
    want to remain friends.  Again what it all boils down to is
    communication.

    	My 2�...

    	AbG

    Oh boy, a topic near-and-dear to my  heart today...
    
    I'm definitely feeling harassed by my ex-husband.  I agreed to do
    something for him, then my car broke down, meaning that I was
    temporarily without transportation (including at the agreed-upon time),
    and had a large, unexpected expense.  I told him I didn't think I could
    do it; I was without transportation.  He didn't seem to understand
    that, then called me last night, after I went to bed, simply to yell at
    me.  He didn't seem to be asking for anything, just wanted to upset me,
    demanding one unreasonable thing after another, not seeming to
    understand that failure to deliver a favor, especially with sufficient
    warning does not constitute an irrevokable obligation.  The worst part
    is that I saw my mother go through this same type of $#!% during/after
    her divorce, and fully expect he will do it again.  I'm wondering if
    it's time to get a lawyer (we are trying mediated, do-it-yourself
    divorce) and see what I can do to stop him from hurting me further.
    Today, I'm far from useful at work due to lack of sleep, and general
    upset, and I WILL NOT raise one more finger or negotiate anything
    further with him - give this jerk an inch and he will demand 5 miles.
    my telephone is staying unplugged for quite awhile - I'm thinking of
    trading my voice line and my modem line (just hook up the modem to the
    voice line, leaving no ringing phone, and hook up the telephone to the
    (now) modem line). 
    
    I clearly believe I am being harassed.  Several factors here:
    
    1)  Calling after reasonable hours.
    2)  Being rude and abusive in the phone call.
    3)  Refusal to hang up when I indicated that I did not want to talk.
    4)  Making low-key threats (no cause for real alarm - they are not
        physical threats and I should be able to head them off with
        any half-witted lawyer).
    5)  Main reason for the phone call seemed to be simply to rile me
        up - there was nothing really to discuss.
    
    Any of these qualifies as harassment, with the possible exception of 1,
    if accompanied by a real emergency and an apology. 
    
    I would say that calling your friend at, at least, not inconvenient
    times for your friend, if you find it to be inconvenient, hang up and
    call back when they say would be better, and generally being civil
    during the conversation is not harassment.  However, if they say
    something to the effect "I never want to hear from you again!" and you
    continue to call, you are harassing them. 
    
    Elizabeth

At least as regards the cases of potential harassment that I have been
familiar with here at DEC, I'd say the rule is that "If you feel you're
being harassed, you are."  The claimed intentions of the "harassee" are
not relevant. 

If your friend considers your attentions unwelcome, then I'd suggest
backing off.  Otherwise, just try to keep it at a sane level.

					Steve

"the rule is that "If you feel you're being harassed, you are."  The claimed
intentions of the "harassee" are not relevant."

This is not allways the case.  I know of a number of people who have definitely
felt harassed, and when they brought the matter to the attention of personel,
were told they weren't being harassed because 'everybody' was treated that way
or some such excuse.  My feeling on hearing the story was that when the
authorities are the ones harassing you, it's 'official harassment', and
therefore not harassment. 

Jim.

    re .1
    
    While harrassment does imply negative intent... it can also include
    just plain insensitivity or inconsiderateness.
    
    re .4
    
    You could get a lawyer to help you get a restraining order and still
    mediate the divorce.  Believe me, mediation can save you thousands
    of dollars and be more psychologically satisfying.  Two lawyers
    plus one divorce can easily equal two BMWs... for the lawyers.
    
    You can also change your phone number and unlist it... a pain, but
    it will work.
    

    Sometimes the harrasser doesn't know he or she is harrassing the
    harrassee.  Make sure (if it's safe to) to tell the person not to
    harrass you before you make a case of it.  It could be inocent.
    
    Bill

    If you apply the DEC definition of harassment to the outside world, you
    may get yourself in trouble. The legal definition of harassment is
    *far* different than one we use at DEC. I won't go into a lot of detail
    on the legal definition, as I'm not a lawyer. But at DEC, the "If you
    feel you're being harassed, you are" definition is done to protect DEC
    from someone claiming that DEC is a party to any harassment.
    
    Thus, you can be hit with a harassment charge at DEC for saying "good
    morning" to someone who disagrees strongly and wants to disprove it. A
    legal charge of harassment wouldn't hold up under those conditions.
    
    	Jon

	The following topic is being posted anonymously. You may contact the
author by mail, by sending your communication to me and I'll be glad to forward 
it on. Your message will be forwarded with your name attached, unless you 
request otherwise.

	Joe
				*	*	*

    I believe that I am being harassed by an ex boyfriend, and because
    of the circumstances which I will describe, I am not sure what I can
    do to stop or prevent it.

    I met and dated someone during the summer, he was very attentive,
    intelligent, and helpful. I was having financial difficulty, and
    he offered to get a loan for me, in his name from a credit line he
    had.  I hesitated, but then, the need surpassed my ability to 
    use sound judgement, and I accepted.  He gave me a check in his
    name, endorsed it and I deposited it into my account and paid
    the bills.  We verbally agreed on a payment schedule.  Nothing in
    writing, which I have kept. I have no problem with it.  Well, as
    you probably could predict, we began to have problems in the relation-
    ship, and after several weeks of trying to work things out, I decided
    this just was not what I wanted, so I ended the relationship.  
    In the past 3 or 4 weeks since, he has called, written, sent flowers,
    pleaded, cried, etc... to get back together.  I have no desire to 
    get reunited in this unhealthy relationship.  He has alernately 
    accepted my decision, then said he can't understand, and the whole
    cycle begins again.  Last night was the last straw, he called at
    1130 and woke me up to say he wants me to change my mind, and secondly
    he wants the money back that he lent me asap.  Unfortunately, I don't
    have that money in one lump sum to give back!  I believe he is just
    using this as leverage, but it is disconcerting. he says he cannot
    deal with having to communciate with me over an extended period of time
    if we cannot get back together. 

    I am not sure what to do about this.  I told him not to call me
    anymore, that I consider this harassment, and will not hesitate
    to report it. One option perhaps I can try is to tell him I will
    pay his finance company directly, then he will not have to deal
    with me.  But I suspect that will not help, since that is not the
    issue with  him.  

    I made a grave error, accepting money from this person, I will not
    do it again, but meantime, what is my recourse, and more importantly
    what is his?  Can he do anything to me legally?  It's very frightening.

    thanks for any help 

He is hurting and is alternating between wanting to force you back and 
wanting to hurt you.  I think his reaction is normal, until he comes to terms
with it he will oscillate.

In the meantime, I think that legally unless you have some formal agreement
he cannot force you to pay him back.  I don't know the law in the US, but here
in the UK I would imagine he would have to provide evidence of regular payments
that suggest you owe him money.

Can you not pay the money directly into his bank account, or alternatively
contact the credit company and ask for the loan to be put in your name.

When my ex-fiance and I split up I took over the store cards we had as part
of our "agreement"... without even my ex's signature they were quite happy
to close his account and trasfer the debt into an new account in my name.

Maybe he's scared that cos you've got no offical agreement you will stop
paying??

If I was you I'd find out from a legal advisor where you stand.  If they say
you are under no LEGAl obligation to pay this back then I would point this
out to him and give him the alternative of getting it in bits or not at all.

In the meantime, get an answerphone to pick up those late night calls... or
unplug the phone...


Xtine

re: -< Anonymous reply. >-


>use sound judgement, and I accepted.  He gave me a check in his
>name, endorsed it and I deposited it into my account and paid
>the bills.  We verbally agreed on a payment schedule.  Nothing in
>writing, which I have kept. I have no problem with it.  Well, as
    
    There's a  lesson I learned a most difficult way ?  You say that
    there's no written  agreement  between you ?  Fine , the you owe him
    nothing, except for what you accept as a moral obligation.
    

>he wants the money back that he lent me ASAP.  Unfortunately, I don't
>have that money in one lump sum to give back!  I believe he is just

    You really should consult  an  attorney.    Laws can be very strange
    between geo-political areas, and a  whole lot can depend on what the
    relationship and circumstances were and are  now.  Many years ago I
    got    into  a  signed  contract  dispute  (co-contract    with    a
    non-relative), and the legal aspect was awsomely in my favor.
    
    
>using this as leverage, but it is disconcerting. he says he cannot
>deal with having to communicate with me over an extended period of time
>    if we cannot get back together. 
    
    Can you say B.S !!  Even some  divorced people manage to pay monthly
    and regular payments to people who don;t like them ..  and manage to
    do it with "basic" communication:  Put check in envelope,  and  send
    to recipient. No other communication is needed, unless something
    bombs or bounces.

>pay his finance company directly, then he will not have to deal
>with me.  But I suspect that will not help, since that is not the
>issue with  him.  
    
    To me, the cleanest way is to take out your own loan, and pay the 
    person back in full. If this is not possible, there is/was an
    organization called:    Family  Financial Counseling *which is now a
    United Way member), and they can make some viable suggestions on how
    to best handle loans you can't afford.
    
>I made a grave error, accepting money from this person, I will not
>do it again, but meantime, what is my recourse, and more importantly
>what is his?  Can he do anything to me legally?  It's very frightening.

    The best way to get "near free" legal advice,  is  to look up in the
    phone book (in the USA) under (in NH its:   Lawyer Referral Services
    of the <state> Bar Ass'n), and they'll suggest  a  lawyer,  and  the
    first 1/2 hours is  something  like  10 or 20 dollars (maybe less if
    you qualify).  I did  a similar thing in Mass, and the lawyer waived
    the fee, although I could've easily afforded it.

    I agree with the "dumb but necessary feeling".   I  don't  EVER loan
    money to anyone for that reason.  (Unless I'm willing to risk losing
    it !!)

    just wanted to second the idea of getting an answering machine
    to screen incoming calls.
    
    for late night calls, just turn the volume down low, and you need
    not wake up for him.  down side of this is you might miss calls
    from friends that you would rather get......but maybe he will get
    the idea after trying to reach you for a while, then he may give
    up, allowing you to return to full volume....
    
    

    There is also the prospect of getting an unlisted number... just
    keep in mind that you will have to notify everyone yourself of your
    new number.  There is no "forwarding" message when you have an unlisted
    number.  It only costs a couple dollars more and you needn't keep
    the number unlisted... as with all break-ups... I'm sure once he
    has had enough time to accept the fact that you are NOT going to
    get back together again, he will gradually leave you alone.  As
    for the loan, I doubt he can do much legally about it unless he
    has witnesses to the verbal agreement you made (a verbal contract
    is binding).  Personnally I would do everything in my power to get
    the rest of the money I owed him and pay him back as fast as
    possible...even if it meant taking on an extra job for a few weeks.
    Or, turn the tables on his threats (I don't like this option but
    it is there)... Next time he starts threatening point out to him
    that there is no legal document on the loan between him and you
    and if he continues to harrase you, you will stop paying the money
    back.  It's hard nosed and heartless but it would serve to get through
    his head that you mean NO when you say it.  Sometimes when you are
    working with a mule, you have to hit it over the head with a 2 X
    4  to get it's attention.  
    
    SKip