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Conference quark::human_relations-v1

Title:What's all this fuss about 'sax and violins'?
Notice:Archived V1 - Current conference is QUARK::HUMAN_RELATIONS
Moderator:ELESYS::JASNIEWSKI
Created:Fri May 09 1986
Last Modified:Wed Jun 26 1996
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:1327
Total number of notes:28298

677.0. "Old Friend-Ex Friend" by USEM::DONOVAN () Wed Feb 08 1989 09:53

    I am in a very uncomfortable situation with an ex-friend. This guy
    who was supposedly my best friend let me dowm when I needed him
    most. Also he has interfered with my marriage in an indirect way
    by constantly calling my husband and asking him to go out when my
    husband should be spending more time with me and the kids. I know
    my husband has his own mind but this guy calls and nags every night.
    I loved him, trusted him and even had him be godfather to my first
    born. Well, to make this part of a long story short, I told my hus-
    band about a momentary indescretion where my friend made a verbal
    pass at me. Of course I refused. He is terribly homely.(no stretch
    of the imagination) He did it out of lonelyness and I forgave him
    but one night out of anger I told my husband. He confronted our
    friend and he denied it. My husband forgave this guy but it left
    a scar on our relationship that will last forever.
    
    Question:
    
    Since this guy still comes to my house on occasion should I try
    to be civil? Should I ignore the issue or directly confront him
    or what? I don't really blame him. He's such a lonely and unpopular
    guy. It's been 2 years now. (sounds like N.E.Telephone Commercial)
    
    Question:
    
    Has anyone been in a similar situation?
    
    Kate
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677.1Sure...ELESYS::JASNIEWSKIjust a revolutionary with a pseudonymWed Feb 08 1989 10:4317
    
    	Seems to me that "if it has left a scar on your relationship
    (with him) that will last forever" you have not forgiven him, you
    havent even expressed the anger you hold toward him yet. Expression
    of any angry feelings is paramount and a pre-requisite to forgiveness.
    If you're still angry with him, you have not, by any means, "forgiven
    him".
    
    	I cant understand why action resulting from basic human needs
    gets people so angry! Certainly a redirection of the action is in
    order if it's "inappropriate", such as making a pass as someone
    who they know damn well is "taken". But an angry response shows no
    such understanding and probably has nothing to do with the action
    itself, it was simply "touched off by it" from it's "hiding place". 
    Think about it. 
    
    	Joe Jas
677.2HANDY::MALLETTBarking Spider IndustriesWed Feb 08 1989 11:1144
    What options do you see, Kate, and, more importantly, how do
    *you* feel about them?  I can't say what you should or shouldn't
    do; I've been in analogous situations, but what I did and didn't
    do was based on how *I* felt about things and how I wanted them
    to turn out.  I'd be a bit wary of declarations that begin
    "Well, Kate, I was in an identical situation and you should. . ."
    I think the flaw in that suggestion is that the speaker *wasn't* in
    an identical situation. . .(s)he wasn't you (nor living your life).
    
    Maybe one good question to ask yourself, and talk over with your 
    husband is, "How would I like to see our relationships in the
    future?"  Offhand, it sounds to me as if part of your problem
    here is that the situation feels unresolved; it sounds like you'd
    like to do something but aren't sure which is the "right" something.
    Talking it over might help clarify the issues and the alternative 
    resolutions.  
    
    Then too, I have a hunch that a few people in this conference can
    offer some ideas and perspectives from the outside that might be 
    tough to see from the inside; these also may be good fodder for 
    thought and conversation with your husband.
    
    From my own similar experiences, I'd offer this thought:  your friend
    does indeed sound lonely, but that's something over which you all
    have very little control.  What you *can* do (again, if it feels
    like a fit to you) is let him know clearly what "friendship" means 
    to you - in the game model, you can let him know what your rules are
    and what the consequences are when those rules are broken.
    
    From your note, it sounds as if ignoring him isn't comfortable for
    you (a least-desired outcome?); to ignore him is to leave the
    wound unattended and it cannot close, heal, and, in time, have
    the scar tissue become smaller.  This suggests that some sort
    of discussion with him would be a better direction, but just what
    the exact path is ("civil", "heated", direct, indirect, alone, 
    with your husband) is something I cannot know for you.  
    
    Now, just to be self-contradictory, there is one thing I think
    you "should" do. . .I think you should trust yourself - have
    faith that you'll reach the right course of action.  You care
    enough about this to seek guidance and the experiences of others
    in finding your "right" answer.  
    
    Steve
677.3Some rambling thoughtsBUSY::KLEINBERGERDisic Vita Lux HominumWed Feb 08 1989 11:4899
Kate....  lets look at this sorta line by line....

        <<< QUARK::DISK$QUARK2:[NOTES$LIBRARY]HUMAN_RELATIONS.NOTE;1 >>>
               -< What's all this fuss about 'sax and violins'? >-
================================================================================
Note 677.0                    Old Friend-Ex Friend                     2 replies
USEM::DONOVAN                                        27 lines   8-FEB-1989 09:53
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

�    I am in a very uncomfortable situation with an ex-friend. This guy
�    who was supposedly my best friend let me dowm when I needed him
�    most. Also he has interfered with my marriage in an indirect way
�    by constantly calling my husband and asking him to go out when my
�    husband should be spending more time with me and the kids. I know
�    my husband has his own mind but this guy calls and nags every night.


He let you down when you needed him the most.  How did he let you down?  By 
making a pass at you?...  You say you needed him the most, but then the 
rest of your topic doesn't support how you needed him, in fact it makes it 
sound like you NEVER needed him.

Where is your communication?  You say he has interfered in your marriage, 
I say you are the one interfering.  If you didn't want him calling, then 
it was up to you to say something to your husband. If your marriage was 
what it should be, (I'm not saying it isn't, BTW), then your husband 
wouldn't want to have this guy calling and nagging him to go out 
every night.  Both of you seem to have a communication problem, that may 
even be a symptom of more serious underlying problems.

�    I loved him, trusted him and even had him be godfather to my first
�    born. 

Okay, well at least to have done this, than this means that the 
relationship between the three of you should have been very close, very 
trusting, that you would want to have this man raise your kids if you and 
your husband should both pass away. Did this happen before or after the 
pass (he becoming a Godfather)

�	  Well, to make this part of a long story short, I told my hus-
�    band about a momentary indescretion where my friend made a verbal
�    pass at me. Of course I refused. He is terribly homely.(no stretch
�    of the imagination) He did it out of lonelyness and I forgave him
�    but one night out of anger I told my husband. He confronted our
�    friend and he denied it. My husband forgave this guy but it left
    a scar on our relationship that will last forever.
    
    Question: Why did you wait to do this in a "fit of anger"... If this 
pass happened, why didn't you deal with it right then and there? If you 
were going to tell your husband about it at all, did you expect your friend 
to say, sure, I want to make love to your wife? Why didn't you confront the 
pass when it was made?...  Why did you not lay down ground rules at the time?
    
I was extremely angered at your line(s) about him being homely and lonely,
and unpopular.  Isn't it quite shallow of you to take a person's looks, and 
not see the good inside?...  Why does looks have anything to do with it?

If this friend can be important to you, despite what you feel are his 
looks, then can't he be friends with others too?


�    Since this guy still comes to my house on occasion should I try
�    to be civil? Should I ignore the issue or directly confront him
�    or what? I don't really blame him. He's such a lonely and unpopular
�    guy. It's been 2 years now. (sounds like N.E.Telephone Commercial)

I think you need to more than civil.  I think you need to sit down with him 
and talk to him, explain how you feel, why you feel that way, and work
through your issues.  I also think you and your husband might need some 
counseling on how to communicate better, and to take an inner look at what 
is happening in your marriage. I think you also need to look at yourself 
more.  Were you guilty of any misread situations? If yes, then you need to 
look at why, if no, then you need to be more understanding towards why this 
guy felt he had to make the pass at you...
    
    
�    Has anyone been in a similar situation?


I was once.  My husband was overseas, with the military, and a friend he 
had asked to sorta watch over me and the kids, one evening, attempted to kiss 
me, and asked me if I was "lonely" without my husband.  I politely told Dan 
that I was flattered that he thought enough of me to want to kiss me, and 
to take me to bed, however, that I was disappointed in him as a human being 
for not respecting me or my marriage vows to Paul. I told him that I 
thought he needed to re-evaluate why he thought he had to come on to me,
especially since I had given him no cause to.  I also told him that I would 
forget the incident, however, if it came up again, I would notify my 
husband and his (Dans') commander. He later apologized, and that was the end 
of it.  I saw no reason to ruin his and Paul's friendship over what turned 
out to be a bad sense of whatever. Even to this day, Paul has never known, 
Dan and I have lost touch, since the divorce, but I think I gained more 
respect in Dan's eyes that day, because of the way I handled the situation.


I think everyone is entitled to make some mistakes when they are growing 
up, (we never grow up, we just get older and wiser), to hold a grudge 
forever is not healthy for you.  Realize that this was a mistake, deal with 
it, and allow yourself to grown more.
677.4do your part and nothing moreYODA::BARANSKIChild-like, but not Child-ishWed Feb 08 1989 12:0217
What should you do?

Seperate in your mind the different relationships involved:  Your relationship
with your friend, Your relationship with your husband, your husband's
relationship with your friend. 

Tell your friend how you feel about having a pass made at you (and the other
hidden agenda that you seem to have), and how you would want your relationship
to be.  Either he will agree, or one or the other of you will stop seeing each
other. 

Tell your husband how you feel about him going out all the time.  Then it is his
responsibility to react how he feels about the situation.  He might ignore you
and continue to go out, he might stop going out, he might talk about it.  The
choice is up to him.

Jim. 
677.5Reply too GailUSEM::DONOVANWed Feb 08 1989 13:1324
    RE:.3
    
    Gail, The man is homely and unpopular. This is not judgement. It
    is fact. It helps explain his feeling of low self-esteem. I am sor-
    ry if you are angry. Excuuuuse me.
                          
    The man let me down when I needed him the most. Not by the verbal
    pass. A way in which I would never get into in a notesfile. 
    
    I don't want to be friends with this man. I don't want to hurt him
    either. As for my husband and myself, that's a different story.
    My husband has the free will to do as he pleases. But, Gail, would
    wou appreciate your best friend leading him down that path. For
    example if your husband was an alcoholic wouldn't it hurt to see
    your friend dangle beer cans in his face.
                                
    I think I will do what is stated in reply .4. Say how I feel and
    what I expect with my husband there. Having someone come to my
    house twice weekly for two years has made me feel out of touch in
    my own home. 
    
    Thanks,
    Kate
    
677.7VALKYR::RUSTWed Feb 08 1989 17:1419
    Re the "homely" comment: _My_ first reaction on reading it was that the
    author of .0 was stating a reason why she did not accept his pass. In
    that sense, it would be rather dubious thing to say, implying that if
    he'd been better-looking she might have taken him up on it.
    
    If, however, she was *not* describing his appearance by way of
    justifying her refusal, but instead was mentioning it as a possible
    explanation for why he might be lonely enough to proposition a friend's
    wife, it doesn't seem quite so crude. (Whether he really *is* "homely
    and unpopular" shouldn't be under discussion, I think, and isn't
    relevant to the problem. The way the author of .0 percieves him is much
    more relevant, and since she's met him and we haven't it seems a bit
    rough to tell her she's being rude and unfair...)
    
    As for the whole situation, I think the first couple of replies were
    pretty sound advice. Sounds like more hostility here than one
    provocative remark should generate...
    
    -b
677.8Talk it out with everyone involved....MCIS2::AKINSI C your Schwartz is as big as mine!Thu Feb 09 1989 02:483
    I can't believe it I agree with Jim.....8-)
    
    Bill