Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    But do they know how to fly the things!
    

    re:  .1

    Natch, 'cause you wear blue booties!!

    justme....jacqui

    whats the point????
    

    re - .last
    
    I think this has to do with whether or not people feel this is a
    sexist issue.  :-)
    
    Personally, I don't give a rat's u-know-what.
    
    I just hope that the female pilots get something just as "creative"
    painted on their planes.
    
    :-)
    
    Carol

    I think it's another footprint backward on that old evolutionary
    trail...
    
    WARMS THEIR HEARTS.....give me a break...I'm sure something is
    getting warm, but I put my money on something else!!!   hehehe
   

    To those who would be offended by this......
    
    
    why?
    
    
    Nude women have been in art for ages......In the time of the Romans,
    the adolecent male was considered the "in" thing to paint or sculpt.
    That was considered "sexy".
    
    Bill

    carol in .5
    
    
        I agree.  All pilots, male and female should be able to personalize
    that piece of metal in which they may someday die.  
    
        I might add that when I was in the Air Force, it was illegal,
    at least where I was, to place nude pictures (i.e. playboy pin-ups)
    on the walls of your barracks room. 

    Speaking of nude pictures on cell walls, did any of you read that
    novella by Steven King (in "Four Seasons"), whichs name I forget but
    it's about a prisoner that has a nude picture on the wall and he
    plots to escape from prision ?
    
    An eerie but fascinating story.
    
    /Eric

Unfortunately, since there are no female combat pilots I doubt that there
will be any feminine artwork on bombers.

Jim.

    re -.last

    At least, not *yet*....
    
    :-)
    
    Carol
        

    althouth there are no female "combat" pilots.  They do fly kc-135's,
    c-130's, c5's and other type of aircraft....as far as being in combat,
    what type of aircraft do you think delivered supplies to Khe Sahn,
    Vietnam during the siege of '68?  C-130's ofcourse.  
    
    Although women may not fly "combat" aircraft, ask the pilots of
    those planes listed above if they have ever been in a combat situation.
    

>>>    I just hope that the female pilots get something just as "creative"
>>>    painted on their planes.
    
One reason (but only one) why there aren't many female pilots is because
the cockpit (apt name) of a plane is a man's world. And painting nude pictures
of women on planes is one way to ensure that it stays a man's world.

Vicki Meagher
    

I disagree that "cockpit" is a man-word more than a woman-word.  It's
the joining of the words

	cock

and

	pit

If you forget about olives and think about ground instead, you can see
that the word is made of both a male and a female part.

/Eric

Where did the word cockpit *really* come from?

The aircraft in question is bombers...

Were any of the transport planes that were in combat actually flown in combat
by women?  I don't think so...

Jim.

    re .14   I fail to see *why* a "cockpit" is necessarily a man's
             world.  I also fail to understand how painting a scantily-
             clad woman on a bomber is going to keep female pilots out
    	     of them.  Am I naive, or is it just that, as an earlier
             reply said, "I don't give a rat's u-know-what!"
    
    cockpit n. 1.A pit or enclosed space for cockfights. 2.A place where
               many battles have been fought. 3. [deals with parts of
               ships, below the waterline]  4.a.The space in the fuselage
               of a small airplane containing seats for the pilot, coilot,
               and sometimes passengers. b.The space set apart for the
               pilot and crew in a large airliner.
    
    -American Heritage Dictionary
    
    Early planes were open.  Did they develop "cockpits" during a world-
    war, when planes were being primarily used for fighting?  It seems
    to have a derivation from definition "2" above, for some reason.
    
    Can someone enlighten us?
    
    Paula

    In Old English the person who steered a sailboat was referred to
    as a "cockswain".  The term "coxswain" is still used to refer to the
    person who goes, "Stroke...Stroke...Stroke" in the back of row boats
    (I'm sure there's a joke in there somewhere).
    
    In order to prevent the cockswain from being swept overboard during
    high seas the ship's wheel or tiller was set in a recessed "pit". This
    was referred to as a "cockswain's pit" since during a watch only the
    cockswain was permitted to be in the pit.  Since language usually takes
    the path of least resistance the term was shortened to cockspit (That's
    cocks-pit not cock-spit, Joe) sometime during the 18th century and
    finally to "cockpit".
    
    Now where does the term "cocktail" come from.
    
    Kris

    re .0, I'd be very surprised if this is true.  
    
    Among the very real problem areas would be among flight-line crews,
    where the mechanics fixing, arming and refueling these beasts are
    as like as not to be mixed gender crews...who could reasonably be
    expected to object to blatantly sexist artwork in their workplace.
    
    Would you mind revealing your source for this recent "announcement"?    
                             
    DougO

    As an art student, I don't see why anyone would be offended by nude
    paintings.  In class I had to draw from a nude model.  In greek
    sculpture there is very little clothing.  There has been nudity
    in art for ages.  What is the problem here?  I draw and scuplt nudes,
    does that make me a twisted pervert?   Last year at Hampton Beach,
    I did a sand sculpture of a sunbather.  Little Old ladies even weren't
    offended.   What the hell it's only art.......
    
    Bill

    "cockpit" - area of staged fighting. In WWI pilots used to drop
    bombs that were piled up inside the cockpit. Pilots also used to
    shoot pistols and the bombadiers would fire a rifle. Remember, the
    pilot sat aft of the Bombadier, who also fired the machine gun.
    The area in a two seater was approx. the size of a cockpit (bi-plane).
    
    As to decorating the aircraft: Pilots and crew of WWII bombers usually
    had a sum of the parts of all of their wives, girlfriends, lovers
    painted as a good luck charm on their aircraft. Others had fierce
    looking objects painted. Throughout history evil looking drawings,
    etchings etc have adorned head dresses, flags, shields etc. in combat.
    In many cultures they were to ward off death by scaring it, or creating
    fear in the enemy. The art forms also cause a sense of transferred
    "love" of the person painted into a "love" of the aircraft. The
    belief was also that the love of the women would protect the aircraft.
    
    In Viet Nam it was commonplace that our flight helmets were
    individualized because we couldn't paint or decorate our aircraft.
    I had "Death's Head" painted on the sides of mine with snakes crawling
    out of the eyes and a dagger through the skull. My name was printed
    on the back with "Beast" on the visor shields. Why? I don't know,
    I guess I felt that I was pretty terrible and it reflect the way
    I really felt about myself.
    
    Maybe it's just away to escape the reality of what we do....
    
    Ken

 Offered for your consideration:
 The time; The present.
 The scene: An airstrip, somewhere in the Twilight Zone.

 You are a man, and you work on the flight line servicing and maintaining the
various aircraft. All the aircraft are decorated in some way, with various 
pin-up pictures.
 On the nose of one aircraft is the title "Gorgeous George" over a picture of a
nude male "hunk" displaying an enormous erection, with a 'come hither' look in
his eyes. 
 You have to work on the aircraft, often under the eyes of the female pilot and
her crew (possibly all female). Good pilots being what they are, you hear their
occasional comments and remarks about the sexual prowess and personal habits of
the "George" so pictured.

 Would you perhaps feel a little uncomfortable?


						Nigel

    RE:.22
    
    
    I feel comfortable with my sexuality.  I would feel about as
    uncomfortable as a stroll through the BMFA.  If it's the crude 
    comments about the art that bothers someone then why not address
    that issue.  I hardly ever hear crude comments about art in a museum.
    
    
    Bill

Would anyone care to define "blatently sexist artwork"?

In my mind artwork of an erection is about equal to a "beaver shot", the
majority of neither is "art" in my opinion.  Women don't have visible erections
per se.  "blatently sexist artwork"?  I don't know...  Either any artwork of the
opposite sex could be taken as "blatently sexist", or only art displaying the
opposite sex in a blatently submissive position relative to the other sex would
be blatently sexist.  Sorry, I don't equate sexual with submissive and sexist.

Or perhaps the only sexual/nude artwork that is not blatently sexist is
homosexual artwork? :-)  How would you know what sex the pilot of a given plane
was?  Would homosexual artwork be substantually different?

Jim.

    Re: .20
    
    Nudity is not really the issue.  The issue is the "women are merely
    pleasure objects" implications of the paintings.  That might not
    be what the artists and pilots really believe, but the paintings
    can certainly be used to reinforce that attitude.
    
    Re: .23
    
    So you're comfortable with your sexuality.  Lucky you.  Not everyone
    is.  Who cares if they 'should' be?  They aren't.  Until measures
    are taken to get people more comfortable with their sexualities,
    their discomfort must be dealt with.  Ignoring reality is usually
    non-productive.

< Note 661.10 by HANNAH::OSMAN "type hannah::hogan$:[osman]eric.vt240" >

>     Speaking of nude pictures on cell walls, did any of you read that
>     novella by Steven King (in "Four Seasons"), whichs name I forget but
>     it's about a prisoner that has a nude picture on the wall and he
>     plots to escape from prision ?
    
If I remember right, it was "Rita Hayworth and Shawshank Redemption."
Excellent story....

-- Cathy

    ... maybe sexist, but for some it served as a morale boosting reminder
    of what they were fighting for....
    
    

    re: .27
    
    � . . .what they were fighting for....
    
    Or at least what they believed and/or hoped they were fighting 
    for. . .
    
    Steve

    
    For what is worth,  NOT all aircraft nose paint is sexist!  I have
    seen some very tasteful and tasteless nose paint that didn't even
    involve depictions of humans of either sex.  I judge the work like
    art, which as it should be.  There is good art and junk.  The 
    difference is decided by personal standards (READ opinion).
    
    Also respect the fact that even if it's bad art it may be part of
    history for others to look back on.
    
    just my 2 Yen, john
    

    re: < Note 661.13 by BAGELS::CARROLL >

>        althouth there are no female "combat" pilots.  They do fly kc-135's,
>    c-130's, c5's and other type of aircraft....as far as being in combat,
>    what type of aircraft do you think delivered supplies to Khe Sahn,
>    Vietnam during the siege of '68?  C-130's ofcourse.  
    
    Women may or may not be flying those craft that you mentioned....
    
    What do ya bet that the pilots of those craft were men that flew
    "those" planes over Vietnam?
    
    Dwight