Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    I feel all children should have a choice .. and should be exposed
    to the choices which are available to them.  Christmas carries a
    secular message .. (i.e. peace and goodwill towards mankind) and
    eliminating any form of celebrating that message is unacceptable.
    More than ever, we need to ingrain that message on today's youth.
    
    Christmas also carries a religious message, celebration of the birth
    of Christ.  Being brought up through catholic schools, and as a 
    practicing christian, I hold this latter message as the primary 
    meaning of this season.  But that is my belief.
    
    In short, if I had kids in school I would want them exposed to the
    numerous celebrations of the season .. again, so that they know
    of the "choices" (and that includes christian traditions, jewish
    traditions, etc) ..  These days, our society tends to be paranoid 
    about religious messages ruling the world .. I could think of 
    worse influences.                                                
     

    I have fairly strong opinions on this subject.
    
    I was brought up Jewish in a typical, strongly non-jewish, town.
    I always HATED the christmas season.  The season seemed to accentuate
    my feeling that I was different, since I was one of few Jewish kids
    in the school.  I remember being told to sing christmas carols,
    and feeling dirty for singing the word "christ" since my mother
    had told me that I shouldn't.  I would usually leave that word
    out, but I'd still feel awful about singing the religious songs
    (away in a manger, noel, silent night) since the meaning was still
    there, even if I left out a few names.  In spanish class, I was
    *required* to sing the songs, since they were "part of the experience
    of learning the language" according to the teacher.  I refused,
    and got a C for the term.  One time in grade school we made christmas
    ornaments in art class.  I brought mine home, and my mother was
    very upset at me for bringing it into the house.
    
    I could go on and on.  
    
    The point is, christmas is NOT a secular holiday.  The tree, the
    lights, the stars, the songs all have religious meaning.  For someone
    who is strongly oriented to another religion, participating in these
    celebrations can be sacrilige.  Forcing a child to choose between
    commiting sacrilige behind his parents' backs OR looking like a
    total outsider is not fair.
    
    --Louise

Well, I'm pro-CHRISTmas, but if my daughter could learn more about Judiasm,
I think I'd be thrilled.  There's a lot more I wish I knew about the "chosen
people and their traditions."  It just seems that if part is going to be 
banned, then it all should all be banned.  (Then I don't have to worry about 
my daughter dealing with Santy-claus and commercialism.)

    re: .0

    � The Christmas tree is a tradition which is as non-religious as we 
    � are going to get.
    
    Whose tradition?  It seems to me that the only truly non-religious
    Christmas traditions are to be found in the shopping malls this
    time of year.  
    
    I find myself with mixed feelings here: on the one hand, because 
    I do agree with the separation of church and state, I think either 
    the  decorations shouldn't be allowed (strikes me as logically
    correct) or there should be decorations from all faiths (which I 
    like better, but it doesn't play well. . .not all religions celebrate 
    December 25th or even December); on the other hand, I have to admit 
    that I liked the decorations and all when I was in school and it's 
    hard for me to be wholehearted about not having them.  
    
    As an aside, I'd like to thank Louise (.2) for an eye-opener; I'd
    never really thought about non-Christians' experiences at this time
    of year.  Now that I think of it, it does strike me as unfair that
    Jewish children had to get a note from their parents to be out of
    school for their celebrations while the while the Christian kids
    automatically got time off.
    
    Steve
    

    
    You know, I can never recall this type of issue being discussed
    so hotly in the past as it seems to be now.  I'm sure that there
    have been opinions voiced, both pro and con, for many years now,
    but only lately has it seemed that people are trying to do some-
    thing about it.
    
    I, too, have very strong opinions on the matter, but it is neither
    for nor against Christmas, Easter, Chanukah, or any other "religious" 
    holiday celebration.  It is for freedom of choice and diversity
    of exposure
    
    It's quite simple, I think.  Though I am not really a patriot, in
    the "zealot" sense of the word, I sincerely believe that one of
    the fundamental things holding this country together is the variety
    and diversity of the people.  Wasn't that what this country was
    founded upon?  Freedom of speech... religion... belief?  And isn't
    this also ensured by our constitution?
    
    What irks me beyond all else is when groups or individuals not only
    object to a given "practice", but would seek to prevent others from
    "practicing".  This doesn't happen, you might say?  Look at what's
    happening in the schools, as in .0   Look at the Texas book-bannings,
    and those around the rest of the country.  Look at censorship of
    all forms... TV, radio, newspapers... everywhere.
    
    People, it would seem, are seeking to REDUCE our diversity.  To
    limit that which we can see, do, and feel... Categorizing what is
    "proper" and "neccessary" versus that which "is not."
    
    Frankly, I think when you take away the choice(s), you take away
    the freedom(s).  When you dumb-down a school, you develop ignorance.
    When you dictate what is right or wrong, you perpetuate intolerant
    attitudes.  No, rather I would see MORE freedom... More choice...
    More tolerance... More understanding.  If everyone were to understand
    that variety is indeed the spice of life, I think we all might just
    get along a little bit better.
    
    Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to be going that way of late, and
    That... makes me very sad about the future of "freedom."
    
    Bob

    I also have very mixed feelings.  As a non-church going agnostic,
    who was raised in a Protestant (Methodist/Congregationalist) home,
    I love the tradition of Christmas but, although I'm all for love
    and peace on earth, the holiday really has no religious significance
    for me.
    
    It strikes me as ironic that Jewish people see Christmas decorations
    and think of Jesus, while I who was raised to be a Christian see
    the decorations and usually don't!
    
    I have to confess that I, too, would miss the Christmas decorations
    if I were a student in school.  I don't know if we should give equal
    time Jewish holidays in public schools or if we should exclude all
    the religious holidays.  Maybe it would help if everyone (teachers,
    students, etc.) didn't act as though everybody were a Christian
    but openly discussed the fact that there are other religions in
    the world, too, and that they are all to be respected, and that
    nobody has to sing carols or get involved who doesn't want to.
    
    I have heard and read of how much Christmas bothers Jewish people
    before.  I know of one former Jewish co-worker whose daughter came home
    from kindergarten and angrily told her family that she wanted to
    have a Xmas tree, Xmas gifts, and hang her stocking for Santa just
    like all her friends.  I don't know how it was all finally resolved
    for them.
    
    Lorna
    

    Growing up somewhat similiar to .2, I still have a different view.
    While in school, I never had any problems with the Christmas season
    or the celebrations. As I got to college, I partook like the rest
    of my friends because that was the time of year. I have a very open
    view of religion (much to the dismay of my parents who had the same
    philosophy as those in .2), all religions. I can feel at home just
    as much in a Synagogue as a Church. Considering that all the
    Judeo-Christian beliefs have one God in common (though the differences
    take off from there), I don't have to accept someone elses beliefs
    to enjoy the activities around them. When I am in a Catholic Church
    (and I've been to 4 weddings and a christening in recent years),
    just because I don't go up to receive Sacrement, I still can appreciate
    the beauty of the service. MY point is that you don't have to accept
    everything about Christmas to just enjoy the beauty and activities
    around it. 
    
    The law suits to secularize the schools are brought by a small group
    of people, but this unfortunately reflects on the group as a whole.
    I have never tried to impose my religious will on anyone else, rather
    I can appreciate what each individual religion has and respect those
    who believe in it, without feeling threatened. The Christmas time
    is exactly that time of year. I am bringing my son up the same way,
    and hope he can be as open minded with his children when he gets
    older.
    
    Eric

    re .0- Ed,
    
    Good topic, and I also appreciated the sentiments expressed in .2.
    I personally found some of your phrasing offensive, and deduced
    that you were probably a Christian yourself.  I'm not, and I'll
    try not to flame here as I point out what offended me.
    
    Someone else pointed out how they felt as a child subjected to
    Christian influences at school and opposing influences at home;
    I was raised Catholic so I didn't have that conflict then, but having
    individually renounced that way of life for philosophical reasons
    as an adult, I find the Christian trappings associated with my
    celebration of X-mas season to be intrusive and offensive.  I can
    only imagine that it must be much more confusing for a child who
    would usually not have the strength of individuality required to
    buck our culture's mainstream religion.  
    
    > That is a bit harsh, but it appears that non-Christians (read Jews,
    > athiests (sp?), etc.) 
    
    This was weird, but I found being lumped in with the "etc" as 
    the most offensive part of the whole note.  I'm philosophically
    non-theistic.  It would have been less offensive to me (and perhaps
    to others, though I speak for no one else) had you stopped at
    "non-Christians" without your parenthetical delineation.
    
    >                       are unhappy about the traditional Christmas
    > celebrations being used in the schools.  Some have even objected
    > to the Christmas tree.  Now, I will admit that we must try to be
    > fair as much as possible, but let's be real.  The Christmas tree
    > is a tradition which is as non-religious as we are going to get.
    
    I refuse to patronize businesses that overtly use Christian themes 
    or preach Christian messages, and I have on occasion written these 
    businesses letters telling them why they don't receive my business.
    [I don't write coercive or abusive letters, merely state that their 
    choice to bring religious trappings into their enterprise has cost 
    them my patronage.]  Christmas trees don't set me off in particular,
    but with my sensitivity to symbolism heightened, I can see how some
    people *do* find the tree inappropriate for tax-funded public schools.
    
    > I wonder if these concerns are a sign of our troubled times or a
    > contributing cause.  Or are they a little of both?
    
    I have a definate opinion that these are a symptom of intolerance
    on both sides of the line, not a cause.
    
    > I feel that if there is to be no Christmas celebration, then there
    > should be no Hannakuh or Yom Kippur or anything else.
      
    Sponsored and paid for by tax dollars, I agree.  Christmas celebrations
    in the schools have been subsidized in this fashion for years...the
    other holidays you mention were not (at least in my school districts,
    correct me anybody with other experience in *public* school systems.)
    
    > Am I being unfair about feeling that certain traditions should be
    > considered non-religious, regardless of their origins?
      
    Ed, I call my holiday celebration around 25 December X-mas.  I DO
    consider it non-religious, its a time for me to party, give and
    receive gifts and be of good cheer.  People who send me
    well-intentioned but excessively religious greeting cards are
    appreciated for the intent, but I don't keep the cards, either!
    
    So I have converted MY traditions into a non-religiously oriented
    holiday.  Whatever anybody wants to do privately is their own affair.
    But when its not private, but publicly funded, I can see a very strong 
    case for people who don't like to see public institutions (which spend 
    tax dollars) promoting religious traditions.
    
    DougO

    
    .0 > I was reading the paper and came across an article which I felt
    .0 > was somewhat indicative of the current times.  The article was about
    .0 > the schools trying to eliminate Christmas from their buildings.
    
    .0 > That is a bit harsh, but it appears that non-Christians (read Jews,
                                                                       ^^^^
    .0 > athiests (sp?), etc.) are unhappy about the traditional Christmas
         ^^^^^^^^
    .0 > celebrations being used in the schools.  Some have even objected
    .0 > to the Christmas tree. 
    
    Eddie, I think you left out Buddhists, Muslims (as well as a bunch of 
    other, non-Christian religions) - and, of course, "Godless, pinko Commies" 
    from your exhaustive list. 
    
    .0> I feel that if there is to be no Christmas celebration, then there
    .0> should be no Hannakuh or Yom Kippur or anything else.  Easter
    .0> celebration has already been removed from schools.
    
    I don't recall Yom Kippur being celebrated in public schools, although 
    Jewish students may take the day off to attend religious services.
    Can you give some specific instances of the so-called "celebration"?
    
    .0> Am I being unfair about feeling that certain traditions should be
    .0> considered non-religious, regardless of their origins?
    
    Unfair? Perhaps. Parochial? Definitely.
              
    
    .1> Christmas also carries a religious message, celebration of the birth
    .1> of Christ.  Being brought up through catholic schools, and as a 
    .1> practicing christian, I hold this latter message as the primary 
    .1> meaning of this season.  But that is my belief.
    
    And that is exactly the problem in our pluralistic society. We
    shouldn't depend upon public schools to carry the messages of
    any religion. That what our synagogues, churches and families are
    supposed to do.
     
      Alan 

    Re: .2
    
    Louise, I'm reprinting something I entered in BAGELS, a little over
    a year ago, which seems germane to your experiences. It has been
    shortened somewhat from the original entry there.
                                                        
    
    **********************************************************************
    
                    <<< IAGO::DUA0:[NOTES$LIBRARY]BAGELS.NOTE;1 >>>
                -< BAGELS and other things of Jewish interest >-
================================================================================
Note 360.20                       REGISTRATION                          20 of 21
FDCV03::ROSS                                         70 lines  23-SEP-1987 13:59
                        -< The Audubon and Other Tales >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Dave, I, too, had Mr. Weitzman for my fifth grade teacher. He was
    "expelled" from teaching because he was alleged to be, or have been,
    a communist. Don't forget that was back in the early to mid-50's,
    and McCarthy and his goons had America looking for "those dirty
    commies" under every bed.
    
    One of my great memories in Weitzman's class was when I drew a
    Jewish Star on the top of the Christmas tree I had drawn. I had
    no concept of a five-pointed star. Weitzman almost plutzed; he
    took my drawing around the school to show it to all the other
    teachers ("all" being about eight, 3 or 4 of whom were Jewish).
    
    Looking back now, that was a pretty shitty thing for the Boston
    School Department to do: To require kids in a virtually all-Jewish
    elementary school (out of 200 kids, there was one gentile) to draw
    Christmas trees, sing Christmas carols, have Christmas candy passed
    out to them. Of course, Chanukah was never mentioned. I wonder if
    any of our parents objected in their hearts. Back then, it seemed,
    nobody ever questioned any authority figures. No doubt, if our parents
    had raised a stink, they would have been told that it was school
    policy, to mind their own business, and who the hell did THEY think
    they were trying to tell the School Department what was appropriate.
    
    When I went to Milton High, Jews made up, perhaps 10 percent of
    the school population. Of course the teachers ALWAYS would schedule
    exams for the Jewish Holidays and say something like: "Oh, YOU
    PEOPLE aren't going to be here? You CAN'T miss those tests". We
    did. They bitched. But, unlike the stance our parents took when
    we were in the Audubon - not to make waves - the Rabbi from Temple
    Shalom went to the Milton School Committee and the board of Selectmen
    and "persuaded" them to stop penalizing the Jewish students for
    not being in school on the Holidays. Not surprisingly, the teachers
    managed to schedule exams for all students on non-Holidays. The
    educational integrity of Milton Public Schools survived this "religious"
    interference. One or two of us even were accepted by colleges. :-)
    
    Where I live now, Sharon, the Jewish kids don't have to worry about
    missing tests on the Jewish Holidays. In fact, even the non-Jewish
    kids don't. The schools are CLOSED, period. What a difference two
    generations make!
    
      Alan
                                                     
                                                     

    When I tried to identify some non-Christians, I did so because I
    was afraid that I would not be understood.  You see, I look at Jews
    within the Christian label.  Am I incorrect here?  I meant no
    disrespect, nor any unkindness by the "etc.".
    
    As for taking of Jewish holidays, I can't recall any specific examples
    when I was in regular school, but when I was in college, the school
    was regularly scheduled around the Jewish holidays.  I believe that
    Yom Kippur is sometime early September or so?  We started school
    especially late one year because of this.  Yet, we did not get Easter
    off.  Granted there was a spring break.  But this occurs regardless
    of the holiday.
    
    I guess my original concern was that if we continue to try to sanitize
    our schools, where will our many traditions come from?  I can recall
    happy things from school around the holidays.  Granted, I am a
    Catholic, so the religious aspects of the holiday are in keeping
    with my religion.  But why can we not simply play down some the
    religious aspects and still keep the enjoyment aspects.  I believe
    it was the Westford school system that originally totally banned
    any ornaments, trees, etc.  There was such an outcry from the teachers
    and parents that I think they are reconsidering (or have reconsidered)
    their decision.  A similar (though less radical) proposal is being
    made in Chelmsford.  I just fear that many of the things that we
    got to enjoy as children are being denied our children.  If this
    happens, what will they have to pass on to their children?
    
    This country is the greatest in the world.  I am saddened to see
    us spending so much energy fighting such issues when there are
    definitely more critical and pressing issues to be worked.
    
    Ed..

                 <<< Note 635.12 by AKOV13::FULTZ "ED FULTZ" >>>

>   When I tried to identify some non-Christians, I did so because I
>   was afraid that I would not be understood.  You see, I look at Jews
>   within the Christian label.  Am I incorrect here?  I meant no
>   disrespect, nor any unkindness by the "etc.".
    
    	Do I understand that you believe Judaism is a Christian religion?
    
>   This country is the greatest in the world.  I am saddened to see
>   us spending so much energy fighting such issues when there are
>   definitely more critical and pressing issues to be worked.

    	There is little more critical and pressing than ensuring that
    	every American's freedom to be part of a minority and yet free
    	of discrimination or harassment by the majority is retained.

    re: .12
    
    � I just fear that many of the things that we got to enjoy as 
    � children are being denied our children.  If this
    � happens, what will they have to pass on to their children?
    
    I'm curious, Ed, how you'd answer Louise (.2) who, like many,
    didn't enjoy the school's way of celebrating the holiday.  Also,
    in "playing down the religious aspects" of Christmas, what aspects
    are those (other than the biggest retail sales period in the year)?
    
    As I mentioned earlier, I'd prefer to see similar celebrations for
    all religions (rather than none at all), but, in honesty, I can't
    make that jibe very well with church/state separation which I do
    support.  I certainly enjoyed the Christmas celebrations in school,
    but it's disquieting replies like Louise's that prove that my 
    enjoyment was, in large part, because I was raised as a Christian
    and felt no conflict in those celebrations.
    
    I suppose if I were a purist, I'd answer the ". . .where will our many 
    traditions come from?" question by saying that our religious traditions
    will (should) come from our religious organizations and our educational
    traditions will (should) come from our schools.  Just because something
    is a tradition doesn't mean it's the right thing to do; perhaps
    the school/Christmas tradition is one that needs changing.
    
    Steve
    

    Ed,
    	Although the Jewish, Christian, and Moslem religions all 
    include parts of the Torah in their holy books, they greatly
    diverge from that point.  Most Jews, myself included, do not
    consider themselves part of the Christian faith or tradition.
    
    	I do not advocate removing teaching *about* various religions
    from schools.  That is part of learning about the world around
    us.  I do advocate removing the celebration of religious holidays
    from the schools.  If we celebrated, without favoritism, all
    holidays from all religions, we would have no time for education.

    My traditions were not learned in public school, but in Sunday school
    and my home.  I would hope that any parent who wishes to teach
    religious traditions will teach them through gatherings and schools
    of faith and through their own practices.

    --Louise

    Re: .5
    
    >People, it would seem, are seeking to REDUCE our diversity.
    
    Where is the diversity in only Christmas (and Christian holidays)
    being recognized by public school activities?

    I am for removing all religious celebrations from public schools.
    Period.  I still advocate teaching *about* religions in public schools.
    
    Since many children come from families of religious backgrounds,
    they should be allowed to take X days off for religious observance
    - Christian, Jewish, Moslem, Hindu, Wiccan, whatever.  I'm not sure
    what to do about the kids from non-religious background - either
    allow them to take these days on the days of their choice or not
    at all (hopefully doing better in school that way).  For planning
    purposes, the children should give a note to the school from their
    parents stating what days they need off for religious observance
    that year early in the school year.  That way a teacher would know
    what days (s)he couldn't plan tests on.
    
    In private (religious or otherwise) schools, they should make their
    own rules.  Catholic schools would be expected to celebrate Catholic
    holidays.  Since these schools are privately funded, they are allowed
    to celebrate whatever they wish, whenever they wish, and any they
    offend should simply stay out of that private school.
    
    This way we wouldn't have people complaining about Christmas,
    Halloween, Easter, or any other days.  A secularly run school should
    have no part in religious traditions.  If your religious tradition
    is important to you, you are free to celebrate it all you want in
    your home or church.
    
    Elizabeth

    I have to agree with Elizabeth.  I believe that religion belongs
    in the heart, at home, and at one's place of worship.  Teach the
    children ABOUT how different groups celebrate their respective
    holidays, but let them be celebrated at home.
    
    Peace.
    
    Carol
    
    

    Thank you for the correction on Judaism.
    
    As for the rest.  Am I understanding correctly that you would have
    the schools be totally sanitized from all outside influences?  No
    Easter/Spring break, no Haloween party (Haloween is not a religious
    holiday by the way), no Christmas party (for BOTH teachers and
    students), etc?  If I were working in such an atmosphere, I think
    I would not be very happy.  People must be allowed to express and
    enjoy the spirit of the times.
    
    Christmas has many non-religious aspects to it.  There is the peace
    and goodwill to all.  The beauty of the decorations.  The happiness
    which always seems to pick up around this time of year (and sadly
    seems to decrease afterwards).
    
    I agree that not all traditions should be maintained, if they are
    harmful to the children.  I honestly cannot answer Louise, except
    to say that all professions have people who are not especially
    sensitive.  I think that I could always find a person(s) with whom
    to object and therefore dislike in the school environment.  That
    is not the point.  The point is that why did these issues not arise
    in previous - seemingly less complicated - generations?
    
    I cannot profess to have answers to all of the questions.  This
    is why I raised the issue here.  To gain insight from a vastly more
    diversified audience than just myself.  However, I think I still
    feel that there are ways to celebrate the seasons and not make the
    schools so sanitized as to be boring.
    
    Am I wrong?  I hope not.
    
    Ed

    Re: .19
    
    > Thank you for the correction on Judaism.
    
    Ed, I'm curious. I know you (since we used to work in the same
    department) to be a well-read, educated person. I also know that
    you were raised in the Northeast - a place where Jews are not an
    entirely unknown species. Why is it that you were so unknowledgeable
    about Jews and Judaism? (For that matter, Christianity?)
    
    > (Haloween is not a religious  holiday by the way), .
    
    I think you'll find quite a few Fundamentalist Christians disagreeing
    with you on that comment.
    
    
    > I agree that not all traditions should be maintained, if they are
    > harmful to the children.  I honestly cannot answer Louise, except
    > to say that all professions have people who are not especially
    > sensitive.  I think that I could always find a person(s) with whom
    > to object and therefore dislike in the school environment.  That
    > is not the point.
    
    Ah, but Ed, that is *exactly* the point. Louise stated how she felt:
    an outsider, because she did not subscribe to the beliefs of the
    surrounding majority. Are you saying she was being too sensitive?
    
    > The point is that why did these issues not arise in previous - 
    > seemingly less complicated - generations? 
    
    Probably for the same reasons that blacks, in the South, accepted
    their "proper place" (separate rest rooms, segregated lunch counters,
    riding in the back of the bus), until Martin Luther King and other
    civil rights leaders gave Voice to their collective dis-satisfaction.
                                                                         
    These religious/racial issues had always existed, but I can see
    how a white Christian could perceive those "good ole' days" as
    seemingly less complicated. Just because some minorities chose,
    in the past, not to rock the boat, didn't mean they were happy
    with the situation.
    
    >  However, I think I still
    > feel that there are ways to celebrate the seasons and not make the
    > schools so sanitized as to be boring.
    
    Wiccans have some "colorful" celebrations for the seasons. :-)
    
      Alan                                                  

    In re-reading some of the replies, I picked up some feelings that
    I might have missed originally. I think a major point in reply .2
    is "forced" participation. If Louise was forced into participating
    in celebrations which were against her religious beliefs, then that
    is wrong. However, if a person is allowed not to participate with
    no penalty, then I see no problem in leaving these holidays in the
    schools. The U.S. is not a "religionless" society, and we should
    not totally "sanitize" our schools, as long as those who choose
    not to participate in that portion of school activity, have that
    choice. 
    
    I also see some characteristics in .2's upbringing which rubbed
    me wrong when I was a child also. My parents had a similiar view,
    which I later found very closed minded. Whatever you believe in,
    it is not the only belief in the world, and may not be the only
    "right" belief (as prev. mentioned, Fundamentalists may also disagree
    with this view). To isolate your children from other experiences
    is wrong. They don't have to accept these different beliefs, but
    there is no harm in being exposed to them. If your beliefs are strong,
    no amount of exposure to that which is "different" will do any harm
    and may open your mind to the rest of the world.
    
    Eric

    
    Since the majority of Americans are Christians, I say it stays in
    the schools. If my kids were exposed to celebrations of the Jewish
    faith for example, it wouldn't bother me at all. I see no threat
    in learning a bit about other religions. Cults excluded of course.
    

    re: Halloween
    
         Beyond the form feed is a little history of Halloween.  But
    to be brief it's believed to have it's origin in the Druid Festival
    of Samhain.
    
    ASP
    

        The Celtic festival of Samhain is probably the source of the
    present-day Halloween celebration.  The Celt's new year began November
    1.  A festival that began the previous night honored Samhain, the
    Celtic lord of death.  The celebration marked the beginning of cold,
    darkness and decay.  It naturally became associated with human death.
    The Celts believed that Samhain allowed the souls of the dead to
    return to their Earthly homes for this evening.
    
        On the evening of the festival, the Druids, who were the priests
    and teachers of the Celts, ordered the people to put out their hearth
    fires.  The druids built a huge new year's bonfire of oak branches,
    which they considered sacred.  They burned animals, crops and possibly
    even human beings as sacrifices.  Then each family relit their hearth
    fire from the new year's fire.  During the celebration people sometimes
    wore costumes made of animal heads and skins.  They told fortunes
    about the coming year by examining the remains of the animals that
    had been sacrificed.
    
        The Romans conquered the Celts in A.D. 43 and ruled for 400
    years.  During this time they combined two Roman autumn festivals
    with the Celtic festival of Samhain.  One of them called Feralia,
    was held in late October to honor the dead.  The other honored Pomona,
    the goddess of fruit and trees.  Apples probably became associated
    with Halloween because of this festival.
    
        Many of the customs of the Celts survived even after the people
    became Christians.  During the 800's the church established All Saints
    Day on November 1.  The people made the old pagan rituals part of
    this Christian holy day.  The church later began to honor the day
    on November 2, All Souls Day.
    
        Regional Halloween customs developed among various groups of
    Celts.  In Ireland, for example, people begged for food in a parade
    that honored Muck Olla, a god.  The leader of the parade wore a
    white robe and a mask made from the head of an animal.  In Scotland
    people paraded through fields and villages carrying torches.  They
    lit huge bonfires on hillsides to drive away witches and other evil
    spirits.   In Wales, every person marked a stone and put it into
    a bonfire.  The people believed that if a person's stone was missing
    the next morning, he or she would die within a year.
    
        Halloween in the United States because early American settlers
    came from England and other Celtic regions and they brought various
    customs with them.  But because of the strict religious beliefs
    of other settlers, Halloween celebrations did not become popular
    until the 1800's.  During that period large numbers of immigrants
    arrived from Ireland and Scotland and introduced their Halloween
    customs.
    
    ASP
    
    (I know, no one wanted to know *that* much about Halloween)
    

    re: .22
    
    � Since the majority of Americans are Christians, I say it stays
    � in the schools.
    
    Wasn't this one of the principal reasons for the separation of
    church and state (i.e. so that the majority *couldn't* "rule"
    in matters of religion)?  How do you reconcile the two?
    
    Steve
    

    RE: .24, somehow, when the non-majority can have an option of not
    participating, I don't consider that the "majority ruling". If I'm
    not comfortable with an activity, I won't participate, but as long
    as no one tries to force me to participate, I have no right to try
    and get it removed for those who want to. 
    
    Eric

    Re: .25
    
    >somehow, when the non-majority can have an option of not participating
    
    Realistically, though, is that much of an option?  Remember your
    own school days and the awfulness of being different, weird or outside
    the group.  Even if you never experienced it yourself, you must
    have *seen* an outsider or two in your school.  How many of you
    can honestly say that, as a young person between the ages of 6 and
    18, you would have refused to participate?  What do you suppose
    would happen to those who didn't want to participate?  Sent off
    to the library or study hall during the rehearsal or art class?
    
    When you get right down to it, everything is an option.  But when
    you examine the situation in more realistic terms and start looking
    for *viable* options, you find that some of those 'options' are
    no longer worth considering.

Re - .19
    
>>>    As for the rest.  Am I understanding correctly that you would have
>>>    the schools be totally sanitized from all outside influences?  

:-) :-) :-)  (Read - Can't Resist!)

"Sanitized".  What a lovely word.  Geez, that's what happens to bathrooms. 
And "totally sanitized", yet.  :-) :-)  Seriously, maybe "immunized", if 
there has to be a label.  I'd love to see all the impressionable little 
kids in an environment that is IMMUNE to ABSOLUTE opinion.  But them's 
pipe dreams, eh?

I don't object to schools teaching about the history of religion and how
various religions are celebrated, but I do object to ONE religion being
singled out above ALL others to be celebrated in school.  And Christmas
is a Christian religious holiday.  And Easter is a Christian religious 
holiday.

Have a party.  No problem.  Exchange gifts, no problem.  But maybe it's
best not to call it a Christmas party.  Call it a "Peace on Earth, 
Goodwill Toward All" party.  Call it a "Generic Holiday" party.

But keep the religious innotations at home and at church.
    
>>>	No Easter/Spring break, no Haloween party (Haloween is not a 
>>>	religious holiday by the way), no Christmas party (for BOTH 
>>>	teachers and students), etc?  

Hah!  You don't want traditions, you want an excuse to party!  :-)

And there are a LOT of people who would disagree with your statement
about Halloween.  There are various types of worshippers who live for 
that day, and Christians who live to see it abolished.  And then there 
are some who ignore it because that's when their windows get soaped.

:-)

>>>    Christmas has many non-religious aspects to it.  

Hate to be the one to tell you, but the very name itself is a religious
aspect.  

>>>    The point is that why did these issues not arise in previous - 
>>>    seemingly less complicated - generations?

Many reasons.  Mostly, IMHO, the issues were ignored.  And those who
object to the "traditional practice" are finally taking the courage to
challenge them.
    
>>>    However, I think I still feel that there are ways to celebrate 
>>>    the seasons and not make the schools so sanitized as to be boring.

Sure there is.  Like I said, just don't call it a Christmas celebration.
(It's NOT prayer....it's a moment of SILENCE!)
    
>>>    Am I wrong?  I hope not.

You're not wrong.  I just don't agree with some of what you said.

:-)
    

Re - .22

>>>    -< majority rules! >-    

Oh?  And if the majority of Americans were Pagan?  Then what?


Carol    

    re .25, Eric-
    
    Chelsea answered the first part, about "enforced participation"
    among children, but I couldn't let this pass either.
    
    > I have no right to try and get it removed for those who want to.
                                                    
    Who pays for it?  In a public school, my tax dollars will NOT be
    used to subsidize ANY religion.  I do have that right.
    
    DougO

    There was a column in the (gulp) Boston Herald on this
    subject yesterday. (honest I only read it for the columns
    and the comics :-) ) (this is a Massachusetts in joke to
    be ignored by all others, sorry for the digression).
    
    The point of the column was that almost all of the commonly
    used Christmas traditions and decorations are not related
    to the Biblical story of Christ's birth and the religion that
    evolved from that time. Many of the tradtions, for example the
    tree, yule log, mistletoe, were N European pagan traditions
    (and that includes the day we celebrate Christmas) that were
    incorparated by early Missionaries.
    
    In other words, many of the 'Christmas' traditions aren't specifically
    Christian but rather older non Christian customs and feasts
    that the church 'took over'.
    
    So while I deeply appreciate that my Jewish brothers and sisters
    don't want their traditions and celebrations diluted by Christian
    observances... there are reasonable arguements in favor of the idea
    that a lot of our American traditional late December holiday is
    an amalgam of a lot of different cultural traditions..and really
    isn't specifically Christian..
    
    are you all aware..for example, that Christmas is a major holiday
    in Japan which has a very small Christian population? They celebrate
    with a tree, and Santa, etc.. but it is a celebration of gift giving
    and family not of the birth of Jesus (who wasn't born in Dec
    anyway...since shepherd only 'watch' their flocks at night in lambing
    season in the spring.).
    
    Bonnie

    Ed, I have had great interest in your subject re "Christmas in
    the schools" as my husband works in one of the schools in Westford
    where this was a very hot issues.  I guess my fear is the "freedom"
    also being taking away from us. Not being allowed to do the things
    we would like to do regarding Christmas or any other religous holiday
    for that matter.  In the school where Bob (my husband) works they
    have always enjoyed making the Christmas decorations, having Santa
    come, which Bob will not be allowed to do this year and he is very
    upset about that as he enjoyed making the children happy and also
    used to read "The Night Before Christmas" to them.  The teachers
    have always been very open with the students and have shown the
    children all forms of the Christmas holiday in other faiths and
    countries.  They have had people come in and share with them their
    religous practices and the children are well informed and share
    the values of others.  Never have they only been taught the Christian
    practices of Christmas. 
    
    My concern is that if we are not allowed to share these things together
    and told that they will no more be able to enjoy making the
    decoractions, etc that our freedom of choice, religion, vote, or
    all of our freedoms are gradually being taken away from us without
    us even being aware of it, then all of a sudden we will find ourselves
    without these freedoms fought for by the men and women of this country.
    
    I am glad that the parents took a stand and thank God, won.  We
    have to be willing to take a stand for what we believe in - if not
    then this wonderful country of ours will diminish.  Also, I have
    great respect for the other faiths and feel that we should all learn
    and understand them together. 

< Note 635.22 by PARITY::FLATHERS >
                              -< majority rules! >-

>    Since the majority of Americans are Christians, I say it stays in
    the schools. 

     Don't you mean "the manority of Americans are gentiles?"  :^):^)

     I, too, like the idea of keeping the holidays, but even back in old
     Testament times, people who didn't share the same holidays weren't forced 
     into participating in each others special occasions.  (The Egyptians 
     and the Moabs vs the Jewish.)



    

    The world can't be made perfectly comfortable for every group within
    it. There are enough different beliefs, that not everyone can be
    satisfied at all times.I see nothing wrong in exposing my 7 year
    old son to beliefs that might be different from those at home, I
    actually encourage that type of dialogue. I was brought up in a
    home where it was "us and them", and that attitude disgusts me to
    no end. Perhaps that's why religious life in my house is "open"
    to other's beliefs and those beliefs are respected as much as any
    my family has. To those who don't want any Christmas celebrations
    in school, would you partake in a wedding ceremony in a house of
    worship different from yours? Would you allow your child attend
    a Bar Mitzvah or a Confirmation of a friend in their house of worship?
    What I'm trying to say is that, do you fear something from those
    who believe differently from you? I have attended Jewish Bar Mitzvahs
    and weddings and Catholic christenings and weddings. I have been
    to religious services for Jews, Catholics, Methodists, and Episco-
    pals, and felt enriched by each. I only hope my son grows up and
    feels the same way.
    
    Eric
    

    I am glad to hear that the Westford parents and teachers won their
    disagreement with the school board.  Whenever one group of people,
    however well-meaning they may be, tries to impose their will on
    others there will be problems.  This has been shown time and again
    in schools, governments, etc.
    
    I suspect that there will be no concensus about the celebration
    of Christmas in schools.  I don't honestly believe that there should
    be.  However, one thing does come to mind.  There is a saying that
    "if it ain't broke don't fix it".  I sometimes wonder if we don't
    pay enough attention to this axiom.  In both Chelmsford and Westford
    there did not appear to be anything broken.  However, in both cases
    the school board decided that it had better fix something.  Would
    we have been better off not tampering with what was there?  Possibly.
     It should be the concensus of the majority of parents that should
    prevail.  If the school board does not listen to the will of the
    parents (as Westford finally did), then I believe the persons will
    not be voted back at the next election.
    
    Ed..

    Re: .33
    
    >Whenever one group of people, however well-meaning they may be,
    >tries to impose their will on others there will be problems.
    
    The people who wanted change tried to 'impose their will' on the
    people who didn't want change, but the people who didn't want change
    managed to 'keep their will imposed' on the people who did want
    change.  In any controversial decision, it works both ways.  The
    only way to avoid having one 'side' impose their will on the other
    is to find a compromise.

    RE: .34, but somehow, by removing all vestiges of "religion" out
    of the schools (and this includes ANY celebrations around Christmas)
    doesn't sound like much of a compromise to me. How much must we
    bend over to accomodate say one person out of 1000? I still say
    that as long as that one person has the right not to participate,
    then let the rest of those involved enjoy themselves. Do you feel
    that since athiests don't believe in God, that they should have
    the right to demand the removal of "In God We Trust" from currency?
    (and I realize that this is an extreme point). Should business
    accomodate everyone's religious beliefs (assuming that company rules
    were stated before employment) in such areas as days off for religious
    reasons, special foods in the cafeteria, special work hours if these
    changes would impact the company? Should we remove cigarette machines
    or ban company parties just because one (or a few) employees say
    that these things are against their beliefs? Should we ban library
    books or modify reading lists in schools because some religious
    groups find the material objectionable? My point is that you can't
    make everyone happy, and as long as those who object have other
    options, then we should leave such activities as Christmas activities
    alone.
          
    
    Eric

    
    
    	 My 9 year old daughter's class has a child who is a Jehovah
    Witness. While other children in the class make decorations and
    prepare for the Christmas Play (12 Days of Christmas) this little
    girl makes scenery and other things that are not directly Christmas
    in content. She makes props and such. She understands that her 
    parents beliefs preclude her from participating. Her parents demanded
    that she be included in everything until it became a violation of
    the religion. Personally, I think it unfair that parents beliefs
    be forced upon their children and I'll leave it at that. The situation
    has opened the eyes of the children in the class to the fact that
    not everyone celebrates the same and has made them sensitive to
    the feelings of others. In this regard, I would say that these kids
    are realizing the true meaning of Christmas in sharing and
    understanding the needs of their fellow human beings.
                                 
    Ken

    RE: .36-
         
    >       Personally, I think it unfair that parents beliefs
    >be forced upon their children and I'll leave it at that.

    I think you just hit the nail on the head as to why many young people
    turn away from the religious beliefs of their parents. You can not
    force someone to believe, religion is a very personal thing and
    a commitment that the individual must make on their own. The parent
    can try to set an example, but when the child is old enough to make
    that decision, the parents must step back and let them. They may
    stay with all the beliefs of their parents, some of the beliefs,
    or different beliefs, but attempting to FORCE beliefs is a guarantee
    that the child will turn away. Those who fear that exposure to
    something different will cause their child to turn away have some
    basic insecurities of their own to deal with. If the child's belief
    is strong, they will stay with their own and just learn about others,
    but if their own basic belief is not there, there is nothing the
    parents can do which will prevent them from thinking on their own
    at some point.
    
    If I sound slightly bitter, its because I was brought up the way
    I described it above (and in previous replies to this note), and it 
    does not work!! I swore that I would not do the same to my child,
    and so far I haven't. He is exposed to many varied faiths and is
    allowed to learn about each one. When he is mature enough, I will
    allow him to make his own decision and will respect whatever that
    decision is.
    
    Eric

    
    re: .27...carol...
    "and if the majority of americans were pagan...then what?"
    
    from my perspective i believe the majority of americans ARE pagan...
    
    and i say that with a smile in my heart and an absolute lack of
    malice!

    A few years ago, I was wrapping presents with a bunch of friends,
    and remarked, "I love Christmas.  It's so pagan!"  One person
    replied, "Yes, that's why my mother never let us have a Christmas
    tree."
    
    I think the true meaning of all the symbols should be taught:  That
    the wreath symbolizes eternity and rebirth in the cycle of the
    year.  That holly is the plant of death and resurrection sacred
    to the Goddess.  That mistletoe represents the death of the Savior
    Baldur.  (There's a lot to know about mistletoe; it's the title
    plant of that cubit-long masterwork, _The_Golden_Bough_.)  That
    the Christmas tree is really the Tannenbaum, the Tree of the
    Goddess (Tann, Danu, etc.).  That the ornaments on the tree are
    really offerings to the Old Gods.
    
    And about that birthday business too.  It should be explained that
    December 25th was the birthday of the Savior Mithras before it was 
    the birthday of the Savior Jesus, and that the Savior Adonis was
    born in a cave in Bethlehem before the Savior Jesus was, and that
    even before then, that midnight on December 24th marks the end of
    eternal night, because that was when the Goddess created the world
    by giving birth to it out of Her own substance.
    
    At other times, of course, the children could have explained to
    them the true, pagan meanings of Halloween, St. Valentine's Day,
    and Easter.
    
    							Ann B.

    
    	RE: .35
    
    	Eric, you seem to see nothing wrong in teaching religious
    	traditions in public schools as long as the student has
    	the options of not partaking. Sounds fine in print, but in
    	practice who's to say this is what will happen. When I was 
    	in school I made it known I was athiest, when it came time
    	for the school to do a christmas play I didn't want to be a
    	part of it. The teacher wouldn't stand for this, "All my class
    	WILL be a part of the school play" was the response I got.
    	When I further refused my parents were called in for a conference
    	with the teacher, which they did back me. Still, the teacher
    	got even by forcing me to do an essay on the life and death
    	of Christ. Does this sound like having the option to not be
    	forced to alter my beliefs?
    
    	Keep religion at home and in the chruch where it belongs,
    	not forced upon students in public schools!!!
    
    	G_B

    RE: .35, as you described it, you did not have that option not to
    participate, which is wrong. . You should have had the right not to
    be involved without any penalization, which was obvious not the case.
    On the same token, I feel that you as an atheist do not have the right
    to take away the pleasure the rest of the students would have from 
    the celebration. I've drawn some analogies in previous replies which,
    I believe, can show where this can lead to. As long as a person
    has another reasonable option, they should not have the right to then 
    impose their will on the majority. There should be alimit on how much
    the institutions must bend to accomodate those of different beliefs,
    when this accomodation has an excessive negative impact of the other
    members of the institution. I should have the right to withdraw
    my child from a (for example) sex-ed class whose material I find
    objectionable, but I have NO right to force the school to cancel
    it, if the majority of the parents want the program. The same can
    be said for objectionable literature. If I don't want it in my home,
    fine, but I shouldn't be able to impose my will on the whole.
    
    Eric

    re: .41
    
    � On the same token, I feel that you as an atheist do not have the right
    � to take away the pleasure the rest of the students would have from 
    � the celebration.
    
    What about if the celebration should never have been there in the
    first place?  On the surface of it, the "taking away" argument
    could be equally well applied to, say, segregation.  I have a feeling
    that there *is* a reasonable Constitutional argument to be made.
    
    I personally would much prefer a solution along the lines Ann
    descibes�.  I'd like to see celebrations throughout the year
    which give attention to all faiths and beliefs and impart the 
    kind of information she talked about.  Given my paragraph above, 
    I admittedly cannot defend this from a Constitutional angle.
    
    My arguments in favor would be:
    
    pragmatic:	it'd be easier to pull teeth from a Kentucky mule 
    		with a pair of pliers than it would be to get the 
    		Christmas celebration out of the schools (and,
    		presumably, off the gov't holdiday sched., etc)  
    
    		Perhaps the celebration shouldn't have been there in
    		first place, but it's here now and I'm pretty sure it's
    		here to stay.
    
    emotional:	when done well (i.e. supportively, giving the kinds
    		of information Ann talked about, and allowing all
    		to choose their own paths) it can be "good"; there
    		are enough dances of death on this planet already; I
    		wouldn't mind seeing a few more life dances.
    
    emotional:	(and, maybe, the *real* reason). . .if we had more such 
    		celebrations we might just have a few more days off a year. . .
    
    Steve 
    
    �	Thanks for that one, Ann; I learned lotsa stuff I never knew.

    Re - .38
    
    No problem!  You'd be surprised at how well I relate to that comment.
    
    :-)
    
    
    Re - .39
    
    Good info!  And I wish they WOULD teach such origins in schools.
    IMHO, it would help take the bite out of this "religion stuff" and
    put the "peace and brotherhood"  back into the holiday that much
    more.  Nice to know that the "Holiday of Peace" has a lot of roots,
    and, thus, that much more meaning.
    
    
    Carol
    

    <--(.38)
    
    Rik, wash your mouth out with soap!  The majority of americans may
    not be the christians they profess to be (and Mark Twain's "Letter
    From The Recording Angel" makes that point beautifully) but they
    _d*mnsure_ ain't _pagans_!
                  
    <--(.39, .42?)
    
    Ann and Steve, I'm with you guys.
    
    						=maggie

    
    christmas should be...everywhere!
    celebrations, holidays, partying are all neato things and we should
    have them, and enjoy them, often...
    
    however, the religious part of christmas should be brought into
    schools as often as we bring in the topic of any mythical, primitive
    religion.
    	until something is proven, physically, it is a myth.
    	wether 10 or 10 billion people BELIEVE it makes it no less a
    myth.
    	if religions are brought into school as a topic of debate then
    ALL religions should get equal air time and NONE should get preference
    and NONE should be taught as if they were real....
	god and zues and odin should all get equal billing.
        	if person wants to believe in the easter bunny or the great
    pumpkin, big foot, god or santy claus that's their business....
    	but they don't have a right to force feed yet another naive
    belief into the minds of children.
    

    My $0.01 worth
    I think we should celebrate all religious holidays.  Imagine that!!
    No more work or school, just spend time to celibrate!!!
    
    Can-not-stay-serious-for-long-sorry
    

I would like everyone to be able to celebrate their own holidays as much as they
wish, and learn about other's holidays.  This allows the most people the most
choice.

I don't consider the secular celebrations of 'Christmas' to be religious, but I
can see how nonChristians might have a problem with them.  Some Jewish people
that I know celebrate Christmas as Christ-yet-to-come in a Jewish context. That
solution works for them. 

"Forcing a child to choose between committing sacrilege behind his parents' backs
OR looking like a total outsider is not fair."

True, but is the problem other people celebrating Christmas, or is the problem
you being forced to celebrate Christmas, and your parent's reaction to that? Is
there any other solution that would be acceptable to you other then banning
Christmas?

"So I have converted MY traditions into a non-religiously oriented holiday.
Whatever anybody wants to do privately is their own affair. But when its not
private, but publicly funded, I can see a very strong case for people who don't
like to see public institutions (which spend tax dollars) promoting religious
traditions." 

Why cannot the school celebrations be considered likewise non-religiously
oriented?  What changes would need to be made to be considered so?

.... If you favor removing Christmas from the school calendar, no doubt you'd
want to remove Thanksgiving, Halloween, St. Valentines day, etc??  I'm against
such sanitation.

"I believe that religion belongs in the heart, at home, and at one's place of
worship."

I believe that my religion belongs in every aspect of my life.  What you
describe sounds like a "Sunday morning Christian". 

"Louise stated how she felt: an outsider, because she did not subscribe to the
beliefs of the surrounding majority. Are you saying she was being too sensitive?
"

Too sensitive in that situation?  No, I don't think so.  But if she said that
there was no way that she could stand any celebration of 'Christmas' in schools,
then, yes, I'd say she was too sensitive. 

"Realistically, though, is that much of an option?  Remember your own school
days and the awfulness of being different, weird or outside the group."

*THAT* is what needs changing, and changing that will have a lot further
reaching positive impact then simply removing Christmas celebrations from
school. 

"Sent off to the library or study hall during the rehearsal or art class?"

I've never been in a school Christmas pageant... if one is wanted, it can easily
be done after school with no impact at all to the minority.  I also don't see
the need to split up an art class, I am sure that a creative art instructor can
find some other special project for the minority to work on at the same time. 

"I'd love to see all the impressionable little kids in an environment that is
IMMUNE to ABSOLUTE opinion."

I think that's a fair description of how such celebrations should be handled in
school. 

"Who pays for it?  In a public school, my tax dollars will NOT be used to
subsidize ANY religion.  I do have that right."

Those who want it should pay for it.

"I think the true meaning of all the symbols should be taught"

Great Idea...  although a lot of the symbols have more then one meaning.

Jim.