Conference quark::human_relations-v1

It seems to me that if you really *loved* you'd know which one to go with,
and you would't be betwixt and between.  I think it is sad that you are asking
the notesfile community to help you make this rather important decision,
and I think it is even sadder that as you say, you'll probably end up with
neither... which sounds like everyone loses.

How did the person "break up" with you? Did the person say they never wanted
to see you again?

You don't sound very much like you are happy that this person has decided
to love and want you.   Do you love and want them?  Do you believe them that
they love and want you?

I have friends who for various reasons separated or 'broke up' with their
primary relationship come to realize that that relationship means almost
everything to them, and they've gotten back together and have forgiven and
gone forward.  Are you afraid of that working for you, or are you deeper
entrenched in and wanting to explore the 'new' relationship?

Penny_who_is_also_feeling_pain_around_a_similar_issue

    I just reread your note, and finally figured out what is bothering
    me so much about it.  
    
    You're saying over and over how you want to be kind to both of them,
    to cause the least hurt, to do what is "morally" right.  The line
    that bothers me the most is when you ask if there's a moral rightness
    to going to the man you spent the most time with.  It almost sounds
    like you're not thinking of *your* future, *your* feelings, but
    only about doing the right thing.  Right according to whom?  Who
    is judging you?  And is it really fair to your partner to build
    a relationship based on that?
    
    If you end up making a decision about your future and your love
    life on the grounds of doing the right thing by someone else, I
    think you're heading for trouble.  
    
    What is your GUT FEELING on this?
    
    Do you love either of them?
    
    Do you trust either of them?
    
    Have the reasons your Ex left changed?  Does he truely value you
    and love you, or is it simply a matter of convenience on his part?
    I know people can change, but I would be very suspicious.  If he
    was not willing to put his heart into the relationship before, what
    has changed?  will he leave again when the seasons roll around?
    
    I think your new beaux is right in asking you to choose now - he's
    trying to keep his level of hurt down.  It's better to know, than
    to have your decision made over and over again every time you see
    either of them.  In addition, in this day and age, he's keeping
    his chances of infection down.
    
    I hope you can figure this one out. I'm not going to give you
    my answers since I can't possibly choose for you.  Just remember
    to listen to your impulses, your gut feelings, your heart, and
    you'll find your truth there.
    
    --Louise

        I don't think that you will be hurting either of them unless
    you made commitments to one or both of them.  If either has developed
    expectations about their relationship with you, then they have set
    themselves up to be hurt by their own expectations.
    
        So unless you've made promises to one or the other I'd say go
    with your heart.  If the other is hurt, you can feel sorry for him,
    but he dug his own grave by creating expectations for the relationship.
    
    ASP

    	I have just gone throught a similar situation.  I knew the other
    person came back and wanted this person back.  I don't know if either
    one of your relationships know about each other, but if so, in time
    one will get fed up just being friends if they want more or expect
    more.  You in a way have made up you mind as to which one you want
    or you would have not let the past come back into your future. 
    think of the pain you went through when the one you lived with dumped
    you.  Make that decision and make that is badly need.
    

    
    Since you seem confused, don't really know what you want right now,
    I would suggest that you talk with *both* of them.  I think you
    need more time right now, I think you should tell them that, and
    (in my opinion) if they both really care for you or love you they
    will give you the time you need to make up your mind.
    
    KEEP IN MIND:  The one you lived with left you once before.  Who's
    to say he won't do it again?  Were you happy with the relationship
    you two shared at that time?
    
    Regarding the one who lives in the next state, will you be able
    to handle a long distance relationship?  I've been there.  It's
    hard, but it *is* workable if you two really want it to work.  When
    will you see each other, on weekends?  Talk on the phone during
    the week?  What if, in the long run, you two get real serious about
    each other, maybe want to get married.  Who will be the one to make
    the move?  This may be jumping the gun (I'm sure it is) but it was
    something I had to think about.  
    
    If you make your decision now, when you're really not sure what
    you want, later on down the road sometime you may think that you
    made the wrong decision.  I think you should remain friends with
    both of them and then, when the time is right, I think you should
    write down all the pro's and con's for each and see what to do from
    there.
    
    I hope you'll be happy with your decision.  Do what's right for
    *YOU*!
    
    Denise
    
    
     

    
    	The structure that demands validation in a relative context
    is a social one. But, anyone who must have validation in this manner
    - relative to another person - is not in love with their self. Perhaps
    they'll demand the next rung up - that you give them their validation
    in a context relative to *you* -  should you make a choice in an effort
    to please.
    
    	Love is not black & white. It is not "all or nothing". Something
    else has those properties. Love is too flexable to be constrained
    by bullsh*t absolutes and forced choices. Something else demands
    that. I'd be aware of those who are so needy that they cannot accept
    whatever terms *you're* most comfortable with, for a time being.
    Obviously, they're interested in something beyond what's best for
    you, perhaps "getting into a relationship" to "fill that emptyness"
    or whatever. If they really loved you, this wouldnt be an issue
    at all, I'd think.
    
    	Joe Jas 

    Part of what bothers me is I've been dumped before, and if someone
    who dumped me came back I don't think I could ever really *trust*
    them again completely...but I am not you so I cannot speak for you.
    
    I would say take a piece of paper, make two columns, and see what
    you like about each.  Do this alone, and think about it solely in
    terms of your future with each one separately - EXCLUSIVE of how
    they will feel about your decision.  Think about what's going on
    now, what you feel may be going on 6 months from now - 1 year from
    now - 5 years from now.  Can you see compatibilities or
    incompatibilities that will grow or shrink with time?  Is there
    one you can trust more, or one who you feel will be more stable?
    
    If they *both* love you / care for you a lot / whatever, I think
    that they will abide by your decision peacably.  Please realize,
    however, that you will probably not be able to change your mind
    once you decide.  And in this situation, someone is going to get
    hurt in the process - there is no question - however the surer
    and more timely the decision, the sooner the cloud of confusion
    and hurt will dissipate.

    -Jody
    

RE: .0

	I've been there before - on both sides and its not easy
either way. (It takes two, both with understanding and communication)
I don't know enough about your relations and probably couldn't ever
really know enough. (after all, I'm not you) But I can suggest things
to ovoid doing, and things that I would do.

I think the most important thing to do here is by all means, be honest!
Not saying honesty isn't one of your qualities, but honesty in you will be
respected on down the line no mater what happens. Even if you think it
will hurt someone by being honest, honesty is the way to go.
(don't say something just to make a person happy!) This will backfire in
time! I know this because I've been told lies (not just to make me happy)
by someone I was very much in love with and I found out months later.
(I was devastated by this!)
I never knew that person - just a facade. So now I look back at that
relationship and see nothing but lies. (The hardest thing to get over
is not only a lost love, but a lost love who lied to you.)

By the sound of your note you seem quite confused so I think you could
use some time 'alone' to think everything over and put things into clear
perspective. Time can really help you when your not sure about something.
But make it known 'to the people you care about' why your doing this if
you think it will help.  COMMUNICATION I think is the key here!
If they care enough about you, they'll wait for you. But be sure they
understand your intentions and of course that you care.

RE:    I imagine
RE:    that part of the problem is that I don't "end" relationships... I still
RE:    care for most of those who are not currently prominent in my life. 

Who says you have to 'end' either relationship! Change may be a better
word for this than 'end'! I too also maintain friendship with the majority
of my 'exes' and don't think its necessary to end a relationship.

As for knowing which one to be with if you really are in love as Penny
pointed out, confusion I think can distorting your perception enough
to the point of indecision. So again maybe time is what you need right
now.

So communication, honesty, and time may give you the answers your looking
for in yourself.

Good luck - hope this helps

John

    >Now, the person I was living with comes back after a long period of
    >business travel and a relationship of their own, and says that they
    >have realized how much they missed me, and that they want me back. 

    
    This sound suspiciously like the person in question is returning
    because it is now convenient. Like others have said, can you trust
    that he is telling the truth; that it was you he missed and wants,
    rather than maybe someone else tired of him.

>    Needless to say, both of them want me, and are not willing to be 'just'
>    friends. While they both seem to be willing to allow me to have 'the
>    other' as a friend, they each will not do without having exclusive
>    rights to my sex life. I could handle being sexually monogamous if it
>    did not require me to lose the other person's friendship. I don't want
>    to hurt either of them.  The way that I would ordinarily take is the
>    one which would cause the least hurt, but that doesn't seem possible. 
 
    
    Please consider why you feel your need to keep up a friendship with
    an ex. It sound as though you feel you may hurt the person if you
    don't. Well of course they will be hurt. You're going to hurt for
    a while for having to break up with one, or both of them. But it
    is a short time hurt. If you are truley convinced that the person
    you choose is better for you to be with in all senses, than you will
    be able to forget about the other.
    
    Take time to think about how you would feel with out each one of
    them in your life. You've already had a chance to experience that
    with the former roomie. How would you feel if the out of stater
    was out of your life? Maybe you'll begin to discover that in one of
    their cases it might not be as big a deal as the other. 
    
    One other thought. Is the person that is trying to return to your
    life promising to make changes to accomidate your accepting him
    back? Take any promise of change with the lightest of heart. Can
    you accept him the way he's always been? Because likely he'll stay
    that way. 
    
    > I wish that more people would see loving more then one person
    >(not necessarily sexually) as loving more people more, rather then
    >loving one person less. 
     
    The way I see it, would you feel less loved if your SO had another
    person in his life as close as you? I know I would feel less loved.
    My feeling is that romantic love doesn't spread the same as, say,
    love for your children, I think that is how you'd rather it be. 

    The notes file can help you only in that it will get you to think
    about some issues you may have overlooked. The answer for your delema
    will come from within. 
    
    Gail
    

re: < Note 589.9 by IAMOK::KOSKI "It's in the way that you use it" >
    
�   Please consider why you feel your need to keep up a friendship with
�   an ex
    
    Ex's are people too... Many times, the things that were enough to
    break you up aren't enough to make you "want them dead".  I just
    spent two weeks traveling by car with one of my ex's and even though
    we were both pretty sure we'd be ready to kill each other in no
    time, we had a great time with no problems. (This isn't just my
    perception either, we discussed it just before I headed home...)
    
    
    As for .0, all I can say is do what feels right to you.  Explain
    that you're more than willing to be friends, no matter what.  If
    the "non-winner" can't accept that, then there's probably nothing
    you can do that will change that.  Also, they may come around in
    time.  Some people get a bit put out when things don't go their
    way, and many will decide that "friends" is better than "not speaking."
    
    					--Doug
    miffed wh

    
    It sounded like you'd already come to a decision and are looking
    for reassurance from us that you are making the *right* decision.
    
    Whichever one you choose as the person to have a relationship will
    have to accept your decision to remain "friends" with the other.
    If he can't, you haven't lost much.  If the "friend" can't accept
    your decision, you aren't losing much of a friend.
    
    Do whatever is right for you.
    
    - Beckie
    

    
    you could tell them both you like them both and want to
    see them both.
    
    you don't have to make a choice.
    
    if you want to see both of them then do so.

    it's 1988, not 1888, and we are (so damned slowly) learning that
    there are many different types of relationships beyond the  traditional
    one on one.
    
    perhaps after awhile you will lean more towards one then the other.
    perhaps not...
    
    i've been in the position where a person i cared about wanted to
    see me and others at the same time and i wasn't mature/developed
    enough to handle it.  i think i could handle it, now...
    
    with so much talk in here about growing and maturing i think
    this is a good opportunity to see how far you (and they) can/
    have grown and matured....
    
    good luck
    

    There's something curious I've noticed in most (not all) the
    previous replies.
    
    The anonymous basenote author chose his/her pronouns extremely
    carefully, so as not to divulge the gender of the two people
    in his/her life.
    
    Yet, most of the responses have assumed the author to be female,
    since references are made about the ex and the current friend
    in the form of "his" and "he".
    
    Is there any particular reason that people here can't imagine a
    man having been dumped by a woman, finding a "new" woman, and
    then having the first woman come back into his life?
    
      Alan   

I'm having a hard time feeling that you really cared for your former
    SO, since you sound like as soon as she had disappeared from the
    scene, you found a replacement.  On a personal note, I have always
    found that when I left a truly committed and loving relationship,
    I was devastated for a long time.  I've always tried to take at
    least a year for the grieving process before jumping from one
    relationship to another; that does not mean I didn't date.  It means
    that I took my time about "getting serious".
    
    You are coming across as not being seriously committed to either
    woman as more than a friend, if that.  Also, you sound as if both
    women involved have given you an ultimatum of "choose NOW or forever
    hold your peace."  It leaves you in the role of "victim" with no REAL choice
    of your own.  I find that a little too much to believe.  Surely,
    the women involved would prefer an honest decision, no matter how
    painful, to being left waiting while you, who-can't-seem-to-end-
    old-relationships-before-you-start-new-ones, TRY to decide and
    vascilate until someone else makes that decision for you by getting
    tired of waiting and calling it quits.  I believe that if you seriously
    ask yourself what YOU want, the answer will be there; then, it's
    merely a matter of communicating that to the people involved.  Whatever
    you do, please be honest with yourself first of all.  You must do
    what is right for YOU before you can ever hope to build up a loving
    relationship with another person.
    
    Best Wishes-
    Barb

re.13
Alan,
I believe that I was pretty careful also not to *assume* either gender, because
you're absolutely right, it could happen either way!

I've also noticed that many of these responses have used pretty harsh
terminology, like assuming that someone's been *'dumped'*, and that isn't
the feeling I got from .0.  Maybe .0 could elaborate for us what was meant
by breaking up with the person they were living with..????

Penny

    .0
    
    What is interesting about this note is that it seems to ignore what
    the situations were that caused the first couple to separate.  The
    fact that both partners in couple one found themselves in other
    relationships indicates that their relationship had some {laws.
    
    If I had the opportunity to reconsider a relationship and make some
    decisions my first thought would be to do some heavy thinking and
    some real open conversation with that person.  Why did the relationship
    fall apart...are the pieces in place so that won't happen again?
    
    It sounds as if the author is a caring person and it is commendable
    that there is a deep concern for the people that they care about.
    But it also looks like there is some listing of pro's and con's
    going on.  
    
    If there is no possibility of loving both people in different ways
    and being able to express that love...then a decision needs to be
    made.  Allowing things to happen to us by doing nothing, or hoping
    that someone else will do something doesn't usually satisfy our
    needs.
    
    And by the same token the author should think about their ability
    to satisfy the needs of the person they choose.
                                                
    And of course if there is difficulty in making the choice maybe
    the author should remain friends with both and be open to new 
    relationships.

    This is a reply from the author of the base note.
    
    **********************************************************************
        
    I am sorry if I ramble on a bit, but that's life I guess... :-) 

    .1,.14 

    Several people seem to have the opinion that because I care about both
    of them, I must not care for either of them very deeply.  All I can say
    is that you haven't seen me crying my eyes out.  Yes, I do care about
    both of them, deeply. 

    I resent the assumption that unless I place one person above the other,
    that I must not care for either of them.  I have had relationships in
    the past that I spent a lot of time grieving for them when I lost them.
    On the whole I think that I was simply time wasted.  Now, I simply let
    go of the other, and let them be the person whom they are and try to
    love them as best that I am allowed. Grieve if you need to, but don't
    tell me that because I don't grieve that I didn't love.  Also, the
    pulling away of my first love was very gradual, and went on over about
    6 months.  There were quite a few times in that six months that I
    grieved. 

    I realize that society's standard is to put all your eggs in one
    basket; cling to one person and discard the rest.  I think that that is
    very wasteful and needlessly constricting.  For me it is like being
    told that I have to choose between having one person, and throw away
    the rest of the world. 

    .2 

    In spite of that, I do have some notion of 'Do The Right Thing'.  I may
    not want to honor the obligations society would impose upon me, but I
    do want to honor the obligations which I believe are important. 

    I feel like there is a spot in my heart that has one person's name
    written on it, a feeling that I have not had before.  But I am still
    not willing to give up the rest of the people and activities in my life
    which I enjoy.  That is my gut feeling.  I love and trust both of them,
    and believe that they each have only the best motives for wanting to be
    with me.  I do believe that my ex has changed, yet I feel that they
    have more growth ahead of them, and that I may need to give them room
    so that they may grow. 

    .9 

    For me, it a question of who is in control of my life?  Me, or them?  I
    do not have a problem with "commitment", but with exclusiveness.  No
    one person can possibly satisfy all the needs of my life.  I feel that
    if I do make a commitment to either one, I will no longer be able to
    control my own life. I will no longer be able to simply be with them
    because I want to be with them, but because the script says I HAVE to
    be with them, and that I cannot choose to spend some time with another
    person if I choose to. 

    I would not feel threatened if my SO chose to spend some time with
    another... I suppose I might if I believed that relationships were 'all
    or nothing' exclusivity, which is what I feel I am being asked to make
    a decision on, but I do not believe in having all or nothing
    relationships.  If my SO chose to spend a great deal of time with
    another, I would look at what I am not providing my SO with that is
    necessary for them.  I would try to provide that, not to cut the other
    person out, but so that I could be included.  If I could not provide
    that something, I would not demand that they give that up. 

    .4 

    I realize that some one person may get tired of having less then what
    they want, and may decide that they have had enough.  All I can say is
    that I have been in those shoes many times, and I know what that feels
    like.  I have been friends quite a few times when I wanted more.  I
    respected my love's wishes, because I wanted him to be happy.  I felt
    that was the right thing to do, being on that end of the situation.
    Now being on the other end of the situation, I still feel that that is
    a reasonable expectation.  If they cannot do that, I will understand,
    and I will still love them, but that will not control what I will do. 

    .4,.all 

    What I really want is to not have to make this decision.  I don't see
    that I should have to make this decision, and decide between the two of
    them. I want to have both of them in my life.  I don't think that that
    is selfish, since they are both necessarily part time relationships at
    this point.  If I must be 'friends' with both, that's fine with me, I
    feel that that is better then losing one or the other. 

    I do realize that this is a decision which cannot be changed once I
    make it. If I choose one, and the relationship goes sour, I am not
    likely to be able to have another chance at a relationship with the
    other. 
    

    Re: .18
    
         That being said, I think you can rest assured that there will
    be no happiness in this tri-lateral mistake.  Making a choice MAY
    be a mistake.  Not making a choice IS a mistake, and will guarantee
    three regrettors.  It is easy to say "I am not subject to society's
    constraints," but it is not easy to say "I am willing to hurt two
    others in order to avoid making a decision".
    
                                    Greg

    re .18
    
    Have you communicated this to the parties involved without
    mincing words, etc.?  If not I suggest you print this out
    and give a copy to each.  I don't think you have to make
    a choice because others are trying to force the issue.
    However, you do need to be aware of what might happen if
    you don't make a choice.  If your "friends" are both set
    on your choosing between them, should you choose not to
    choose, you will probably lose both of them.  If that's
    O.K. with you then great!  But don't make a choice just
    to avoid hurting someone.  You are all already hurting.
    The pain can't be avoided.
    
    As I see it your responsibility is to make your own
    decision to choose or not choose based on what _you_
    want while staying honest and open with both of them
    about your feelings for them and about the situation.
    As long as you're honest and above board with both of them
    then you are can't be responsible for their feelings.
    They may hurt and you may hurt for them but you can't
    be responsible for their feelings.
    
    I've been on both sides of this coin, so to speak.
    No point on this kind of triangle is an easy place
    to be.
    
    Good luck.
    
    Nanci

    re .19
    
    I would normally agree with you, that a choice one way or the other
    should be made.  But if she feels that no one person can possibly
    fulfill all her needs, then making a choice seems pointless.  What I 
    wonder after reading .18 is, do these fellows realize that neither one
    of them can give her everything she wants?  And if they do, do they
    still insist on exclusivity (and if so, why?)?  
           
    My personal feeling is that if you feel that exclusivity is out
    of the question, then you haven't met the right partner.  By my
    definition, that's the person who will meet most of your needs,
    and give you the freedom you need to fulfill the rest of them
    elsewhere (through friends of either gender, time alone, pursuing other
    interests, etc.).

    
    re.18
    bravo!
    it is such a pleasure to come across people who haven't limited
    themselves to the mythical dictates of society and the traditional
    conservative standards of grandma and grandpa!
    
    you indeed not need make a choice!
    or, your choice can be....both!
    and...you can be happy with both as long as it is above board
    and the interested parties are aware of your choice and can
    live with it....
    
    those who tell you you must make a choice or that if you choose
    both there will be no happiness know not whereof they speak!

    sister...you grow well!
    stand by your beliefs and do what your heart (after consulting your
    mind) tells you is right for you.......
    
    best of luck
    and have fun
    rik
    

    
    perhaps the pain and anguish over the issue is because society...
    like we noters, for example...
    is telling her (suggesting?) that she must make a choice!
    
    perhaps if she really believed that society would accept her
    decision to spend time with both parties she wouldn't be
    going through this pain and anguish....
    
    if her parents (society in general) had been openminded enough
    to teach her, when she was a child, that she can have more than
    one loving relationship in life, even at the same time, she would
    be having no conflict.
    perhaps all of us would be better of if this had occured...
    but it didn't happen.
    we were taught "one person...that's it...make a decision and then
    live with it"..
    
    now we have an opportunity (those of us with children or who
    contemplate having children in the future) to change society a little
    bit...tweak it in a more positive and growing manner...
    let us tell our children that it's ok to have more than one loving
    relationship....they need not have to *choose* one or the other...
    it's normal and rational to have needs and desires that exceed
    one person's ability to satisfy....
    	it's irrational to think otherwise (in most cases) and by
    continuing to allow our children to believe that they must choose
    one person in life we are setting them up for the same pain and
    anguish, the same anxiety and neurosis, the same trips to the
    same counselors as we have had to go through.....
    	i don't know about you, but i want my children to grow up
    less neurotic and experiencing less pain and anguish then i had
    to go through ...or my friends go through...or i see noters going
    through...
    

    
    
    I want my son to grow up to be a mature responsible adult.
    Therefore I will teach him, thru example, the value of fidelity,
    monogamy, commitment and honesty.      
                         
    
    Deborah
    
    

    I'm afraid I'm rather confused here.  You keep sounding as if you
    will be "forbidden" to maintain a friendship with the "losing" person.
    You also sound as if the "winner" is planning on limiting your ability
    to be friends with anybody of either sex.  If this is indeed the
    case, why would you want either woman?  You are still coming across
    like a victim, and, hopefully, that is NOT what you intend to become.
    It may well be to your advantage to back off and simply be friends,
    but at least communicate your intentions and the reasons behind
    them; that's being fair to everyone.  A clean cut heals more quickly
    than a ragged tear, and with a lot less pain too.
    
    Re: .18
    
    I was not criticizing you for not grieving the same way I do.  I
    was simply pointing out that for myself, and I know many others
    in the same boat, it takes about a year to return to "normal"--many
    therapists will validate that point.  You are fortunate that you
    have the ability to put the pain behind you and move on; that is
    an admirable trait.  There is no doubt in my mind that it is a painful
    situation for you and both would-be SO's.
    
    Whatever you decide, I wish all of you the best.
    
    Barb
    

re: 24
deborah
	"i want my son to grow up to be a mature, responsible adult
	therefor i teach him, by example, the value of fidelity,
	monogamy, commitment and honesty"

	This is an example of what i was refering to.
	.0 is having a problem with 2 lovers because of attitudes like this.
	You are assuming that "fidelity and monogamy" are mature and
	that polygamy is immature!
	You are stating that your way is mature and responsible and
	that my way, or .0's way is immature and irresponsible!
	No wonder .0 is having a problem. You are judging her and me
	in a negative manner because we believe something other than
	what you believe.

	I, personally, feel that the reason you believe these things
	is because you were taught these things by your parents and
	society so i forgive you. But you really don't have a right
	to judge us so negatively and assert that we are immature and
	irresponsible for choosing to live a different life style.

	I think true maturity is recognizing that 
		1. Love doesn't last forever
		2. It doesn't matter how long love lasts
		3. When love ends...move on...
		4. You can love more than 1 person at the same time
		5. You can love many people at different times in life.
	I think true responsibility is
		1. You can't commit forever. You just don't know
		how long love will last. So you can only responsibly
		commit for the duration of that love. After that...?
		2. teaching your children the realities in life;
			a. Love doesn't last forever
			b. It doesn't matter how long love lasts
			c. When love ends...move on...
			d. You can love more than 1 person at the same time
			e. You can love many people at different times in life.
	I believe it is irresponsible to teach our children values and
	mythical traditions that will only cause them greater pain
	and anxiety when reality sets in. Convince them that a mongomous
	lifetime marriage is the most important thing in life and when
	they get married and divorced they will go through depression
	and pain. Teach them that it doesn't matter how long it lasts
	and when it's over they will be better prepared to deal with it.

	i don't know what it's like to score a  touchdown in the superbowl.
	i don't know what it's like to live with one person my whole life.
	i don't know what it's like to play at the centrum....
	but i know what having many different, loving relationships
	in my life is like....it's fine! i have enjoyed it immensely!
	and i feel i have grown and matured into a perfectly responsible
	adult. I feel i am growing and maturing constantly. 

	Had I said in here the reverse of what you said...
	"i want my daughters to be mature, responsible adults so
	i am teaching them, by example, the values of not commiting
	forever, having different lovers, having multiple relationships,
	polygamy, and honesty"
	what would your response be?

From what I've read into .0's notes it appears that .0 is having a sexual
relationship with both "loved ones".  Yuck.  Seems to me that the possibility
of spreading disease or infection becomes a critical factor with multiple
sex partners.  To me, this becomes very scarey.

Penny

    re.0,.18.
    
    Add one more person to the list that says you need to make a choice.
    Not choosing what to do with your life means abdicating any control
    over your own destiny...just drifting.
    
    BUT, please notice that I say _a_ choice, not choose between two
    valued relationships/people.
    
    I've been where you seem to be in .18.  Being asked to make a choice
    between two people/relationships that add value to your life seems
    very unfair to you.  However, there are three of you involved and
    I seem to read from .0 & .18 that not all of you are in agreement
    that your choosing to have the relationship with each that meets
    your present needs is a good one.  If one or both of the others
    involved wants a one-on-one kind of relationship that is certainly
    a very valid need on their part; and your being unwilling to choose
    would seem unfair to them.
    
    As I see it, you shouldn't be worried about what "Society" thinks,
    but concerned with what each of the three of you want.  It seems
    that your needs, at least, aren't being met at present.
    
    If you are un-willing to give up one for the other, that's fine.
    Say so. Make _that_ choice.  It may not work out the way you want.
    Not choosing one over the other can mean accepting that both
    relationships end.  Not everyone wants or needs the same things.
    
    Best of success,
    
      Ann
    
    
    
    
    
 

RE: .0  If you wanted not to have to make a decision between two people,
probably you shouldn't have gotten yourself into that situation. :-}

RE: .1  I agree that it's pretty bad if you are expecting H_R to get you out of
this jam.  The best H_R can do is bring up alternatives. 

RE: .3  You may not think you have made commitments to either of them, but you
may have encouraged them to think you had, unconciously. 

It seems to me that the best course of action is to be just friends with both
for a period of time.  If one of them cannot handle that then they have more
fear and need in them then love for you.  (Shades of King Solomon!)  If they
decide that they can't handle it, then you will just have to accept that. 

RE: .13 I think people assumed that Anon. was a woman because the note mentions
the old SO going on a business trip, and we know that a woman couldn't be
important enough to go on a trip for business! (sarcasm) 

RE: .21  I agree that if exclusivity is out of the question, then you haven't
meet the right partner.  The question in my mind is does that mean that you
should throw away one or both of the people?  I don't think so.  I don't think
the choice has to be between all or nothing. 

RE: Rik & Deb

I guess I'm somewhere in between between the two of you.  I value fidelity,
honesty and commitment, but I believe it is *possible* to have those values
and be a 'mature responsible adult' without "monogamy".  

Perhaps you could explain why you feel monogamy is necessary to be a "mature
responsible adult", Deb? 
    
I don't agree with Rik totally either.  I can see how having one person meet all
your needs would be fantastic.  But I think that if you can't have that, but
have more then one person who fullfills your needs, that's the next best thing.
Again, I don't think it needs to be all or nothing.  I can see either one or
more then one SO as being good relationship(s).  I do think that more then one
SO is definitely harder, though, probably on a scale of N^N. 

Jim.

    RE: .26
    
    Say, Rik, what's up?
    
    Capital letters *and* punctuation, all in the same note? Is this a 
    whole new you? :-)
    
    (It does make for easier reading. Please don't stop.)
    
      Alan  

    RE: .26
    
    I have a different definition for love, Rik, which does not ever
    end and does not just disappear.  To me, love is a commitment to
    someone to be there for that person forever.  Love is not a feeling.
    Feelings come and go but love remains forever.
    
    If two people tell each other that no matter what happens, they
    will always love each other and always work out any differences,
    then why does love have to end?  It is only when the two stop
    working out differences that love ends.  I realize this may sound
    too idealistic to many but I believe that if more people taught
    their children the value of commitment and the value of working
    together with the one you love, fewer relationships would end and
    there would be significantly fewer people carrying the scars of
    a broken relationship.
    
    						John

    .24
    
    There is a vast difference between the statements
    
    "We have an opportunity..."  "Let us tell our children..."  "It's
    irrational to think otherwise..."
    
                           and
    
    "I want...I am teaching..."
    
    Indeed it IS normal and rational to have needs and desires that
    one person alone cannot fulfill.  So we choose the one adult who
    fulfills the majority of those desires.  And meet the remaining
    desires in a creative manner that is non threatening to the rela-
    tionship to which we have committed ourselves.  Perhaps I am simply
    fortunate in that my partner does fulfill the vast majority of my desires.
    My needs for companionship, for mental stimulation, for comfort
    and security and all of my sexual needs, are fulfilled by one man.
    Perhaps I am simply so comfortable about myself that I don't need
    more than one person to fill empty places inside of me.
    
    Given the above, I don't think it is 'irrational' to teach my child
    that a committed relationship based on (among other things) honesty,
    fidelity and monogamy is abnormal.         
    
    Choice becomes a 'problem' when one does not feel a basic commitment
    to the above values with only one person.  Therefore, why choose?
    If it isn't clear that one person is 'the one', then why try to
    pick one to commit to?
    
    Pain, neurosis and anguish come into play when one commits to certain
    'values' logically, because they THINK it is 'the right thing to
    do.  Then they betray that honesty, that fidelity, that commitment,
    because their heart just isn't in it.
    
    The most important thing in my life is my family.  My husband, 
    my son and myself.  Living by my values has brought me joy, contentment
    and fulfillment.  What better legacy can I give my son?
    
    .26
    
    
    ".0 is having a problem with 2 lovers because of attitudes like
     this."
    
    Hogwash.  .0 is having a problem because .0 HAS 2 lovers.  A
    commitment to fidelity and monogamy obviously precludes two lovers.
    
    Being mature and responsible means KNOWING what one wants, being
    firm in one's value structure.  Being responsible for one's own
    life and one's own choices.
    
    I did NOT state that monogamy and fidelity=maturity.  However, 
    infidelity DOES imply a breach in a commitment to be faithful, and
    I do find that to be immature and irresponsible.  I am also not
    judging you OR the base noter.  What you do with your life is really
    none of my business, and I have neither the time nor the inclination
    to judge you or anyone else.  I do object to a statement that parents
    who don't teach their children YOUR values are 'irresponsible'.
    THAT, my friend, is a judgement.
    
    Regarding your forgiveness-I do not want or need your forgiveness.
    You may choose to to retract that forgiveness after the following
    statement:  my value system was not inherited from my parents. 
    My parents were wretched role models.  My values are mine, arrived
    at honestly, by my own life experiences.  And they are very much
    a part of me.  I know who I am, I know what I want and I value
    above all that part of me that is honest and reliable.  That part
    of me that can make a commitment and can be trusted not to break
    that commitment.  Not because I owe it to my husband or anyone
    else on this earth.  Because I owe it to myself and I respect myself
    too much to ever breach the code by which I live.
    
    THAT is responsibilty and maturity.
    
    Your statements are untrue.
    
    Love can last forever.  Love doesn't always last forever.  Love
    is often killed by the thoughtless actions of the loved one.  
    There are too many couples who have loved until death separated
    them, and loved beyond death, to accept your statement that 'love
    doesn't  last forever.'  
    
    It does matter how long love lasts.  Each day that we love deepens
    the bond..
    
    When love ends, one has no choice but to move on.
    
    Yes, I have loved more than one person at the same time.  But I
    have never loved more than one person in the same capacity at the
    same time.  I love my son.  I love my friends.  I love my extended
    family members.  I love each of them in a different manner.  I love
    only one man as my lover.
    
    Perhaps some can love many people at different times.  I simply
    do not have the capacity to feel that deep love that easily.  When
    I love a man, it is with my heart and soul.  Only two men have been
    special enough for me to feel that deep abiding love.  
    
    
    My response to your last statement would have been nothing.  They are
    your kids and I would not presume to tell you how to raise them.
    
    Deborah
    
    
    
    

"Indeed it IS normal and rational to have needs and desires that one person
alone cannot fulfill.  So we choose the one adult who fulfills the majority of
those desires."

Why just one?

"And meet the remaining desires in a creative manner that is non threatening to
the relationship to which we have committed ourselves."

To some people "creative manner" = threatening.

"Given the above, I don't think it is 'irrational' to teach my child that a
committed relationship based on (among other things) honesty, fidelity and
monogamy is abnormal."

I wouldn't say it's abnormal either. (I'm agreeing with you)

"A commitment to fidelity and monogamy obviously precludes two lovers."

By including the phrase on monogamy you make this statement circular reasoning.
It is possible to have fidelity ("1. Faithfullness; loyalty.  2. Truthfullness;
accuracy." DSD) with more then one person. It is harder, but possible.

"Perhaps some can love many people at different times.  I simply do not have the
capacity to feel that deep love that easily."

Perhaps that is the difference between rik and you...

I agree with most of your statements and values.  But I don't see anything in
those values which necessitates Significant Onlyness.

Jim. 

    
       Perhaps for some people love with one person does last *forever*.
    But this seems to be the exception as opposed to the norm. Most
    people (wether they admit it or not) stay in relationships long
    after the love is gone. Also, I really don't think that it is
    important. Two people spending their lives together from the age
    of 22 until death is no big deal. And it's not any more significant
    or important than 1 person having 6 or 7 major loves in their life.
    I understand that most people don't agree with or believe what i
    just stated but i firmly believe that the reason most people feel
    so strongly about "1 person forever" is because we are taught by
    our parents and society to feel this way.
    	I don't think those who believe in "one love forever" are
    *immature and irresponsible*, even though in my last reply I
    suggested that I or someone with my beliefs could feel that way.
    I'll respect their beliefs. All I ask is that they reciprocate
    this respect. Kindly do NOT state that having more than 1 loving
    relationship in life is IMMATURE and IRRESPONSIBLE....
    
    query: where is it written that we MUST choose one person to
    stay with forever?
    
    rik
    
    

    In response to the base author's thoughts, I'd offer a couple
    of thoughts.  Regardless of what various people think may think
    and feel is "best", "right", "normal" "good" or whatever, it seems
    to me that the important thing is for *you* to find some peace
    of mind, a resolution that you can live with.  I think I hear
    you saying that you don't feel real comfortable having to make
    a choice and, given your circumstances and viewpoint, I find 
    your discomfort understandable.  It matters little whether it's
    "right" or "wrong" to be put into this position of needing to make
    a choice, the point is that you *are* in that position and having
    to choose isn't your idea of a day at the beach.
    
    It appears to me that you understand that "not choosing" *is*, in
    fact, a choice and one which doesn't look too promising - from the
    sounds of it, both individuals will not accept this.  It sounds
    as if for them, sexual exclusivity is a requirement.  I personally
    happen to share your opinion that it's unfortunate that other 
    options are not generally as viable in this world at this time.
    But, as they say, that's the game that's in town and it seems as
    if you have a good understanding of that.
    
    I guess the way I'd net it out the possiblities would be as follows:
    
     1)	Choose "both"  - given the others' viewpoints, it does seem
    			 likely that you'll "lose" both; neither seems
    			 willing to share sexual partners.
    
     2) Choose one   -	 "loses" the other; also not a very satisfactory
    			 solution as there are lots of possibilities
    			 for resentment (e.g. the "winner" becomes sort of
    			 a "bad guy" - the one who "caused" the losing
    			 of the other)
    
     3)	Choose neither - that is, put the ball back in the others' courts.
    			 Tell them how you feel - you love them both,
    			 don't want to "lose" either and don't want
    			 be forced to choose.  They may then choose
    			 to call you or not, but if they do, it's explicit
    			 that you have no intentions to of being in
    			 exclusive relationship at this time.  
    
    			 This may be the "least worse" choice from the 
    			 perspective of your own feelings about yourself;
    			 it seems from your writing that this is the
    			 the choice that is most in keeping with your
    			 philosophy - the "upside" is the feeling of
    			 having made the choice that's consisitent
    			 with what's "right" for you.  I suspect that
    			 the "downside" is that it would, functionally,
    			 yield the same results as number 1.  Neither
    			 lover will be willing to accept a third party,
    			 so both will "let you go".
    
    The distinction between 1 and 3 is, perhaps, a small one, but may
    be an important one for how you feel about the resolution.  In the
    first case, you're acceding to their wishes to make a choice; in
    the latter, you're saying, essentially, that it's really *their*
    choice - you're a person who can love more than one and if they
    cannot and cannot accept you as you are, then the choice to end
    relationship will have to be theirs.
    
    All in all, I'd say you're between a rock and a hard place; without
    judging right or wrong, the exclusive/non-exclusive viewpoints do
    seem to lead down mutually exclusive paths.  It will likely do little 
    to ease the pain, but my guess is that your best bet would be "to
    thine own self be true".
    
    Best of luck (and, if you can, let us know how it turns out).
    
    Steve
    

    I know this is getting away from the subject of the base not but
    I feel there is a point I want to make here.
    
    I would be concerned that in the situation you describe, Rik, that
    people would be hurt because in a relationship, both may not reach
    the conclusion that it is over at the same time.  I know you have
    said that when a relationship ends, just move on but I'm not convinced
    you can teach that to people.  I think there will be many cases
    where one person is ready to move on and the other is quite content
    to continue the relationship as it exists.  Differences such as
    this could make for some painful separations.
    
    						John

    re .34:
    
    Rik, it's written nowhere that people MUST choose one person to stay
    with forever. In fact, I agree with you, that for a large number of the
    people in this world, polygamy or serial monogamy is the natural state
    of things. 
    
    However, that's not what I heard in your previous notes. I heard an
    opinion that it is na�ve to think that love can last more than a few
    years. I know enough counter-examples to that that I just snorted to
    myself and whacked the enter key. 
    
    	Jon

    What I have seen in life is a lot of variety in ways of living...and
    loving.
    
    More than 30 years ago when I was becoming an adult my value system
    was such that love was forever "Until death do us part".  I know
    *many* couples who believed as I did and are still together and
    at this time in their live they are falling in love again to each
    other.  It is refreshing to know that I wasn't all wrong.
    
    But love takes many shapes and in those 30 years I have seen and
    observed a lot. 
    
    And I guess it all boils down to is what is good for all parties
    involved has value.
    
    The problem is we no longer have a norm so expectations and lifestyles
    must be discussed early on in a relationship to prevent
    misunderstandings like the one that has developed in 0.  
    
    But I notice an inclination on the part of some people to feel that
    there way is so right that all should subcribe to it.  As liberal
    as we may be in our choices there is a consistency in the need to
    convert.

    re .39:
    
    Well, I hear the polygamists calling the monogamists na�ve, and the
    monogamists calling the polygamists immature. No wonder they never get
    together! Both are derogatory terms that while true on one level are
    unfair assessments on another. Most people don't feel that kindly
    toward people who deride their philosophy. It's as simple as that. 
    
    	Jon

RE: .16 "What happens when only one wants out?"  

This happens a lot in all kinds of relationships.  For me, I figure that each
person has the right to run their own life.  If someone wants to leave, it's
nice to talk it over to see if it is necessary.  But if a person feels like
leaving, hey, it's their life. 

The person being left behind then has to deal with the other person leaving. I
try to let the person live their life the way they wish, without being angry at
them, or abasing myself by running after them begging them to stay.  

I try not to think that I will never see them, merely that I am not currently
seeing them.  This helps me a lot.  I can handle each day without the other
person, but I can't handle the entire future without them.  So I handle the
future one day at a time.  Eventually it gets easier.

This also helps me to continue dealing with the other person when I have to. 
Perhaps it's a good idea to think of relationships as permenant, and think
of the loss of a relationship as impermenant? :-)

Jim.