Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    I wish I could offer you some insight.  However, though I consider
    myself "a decent guy", I've never been to a strip joint nor do I
    have any desire whatsoever to go to one.  I don't understand what
    the attraction is.
    
    You may get a lot of people claiming it is harmless, and it's hard
    to argue convincingly one way or another, but I don't think that's
    the point.  Your husband did something that he (I assume) knew you
    would strongly disapprove of, and hid it from you.  This is a symptom
    of a problem that you should address.  Don't dwell on the specific
    act itself, but try to open a discussion with him about how you
    feel and why you feel betrayed.  Maybe he didn't know - maybe he
    was egged on by his friends - maybe he didn't care - maybe he was
    just curious.
    
    I would suggest, though, that unless this is the sort of thing that
    occurs with much greater frequency than you mention, that it is
    perhaps not worth the risk of destroying your marriage over.  But
    DO make it clear to your husband that you are hurt, and that you
    want him to respect your feelings.  Personally, I'm NOT a believer
    in the old "What she doesn't know, won't hurt her" bromide.
    
    				Steve

    I'm coming from a whole different point of view than you are.
    I don't think stripping is degrading to women, unless there is
    force involved.  I don't think men who are strippers are degraded
    either.  And it's not only (or mainly) slovenly beasts who go
    watch, either, from what I hear.
    
    Given my point of view, yes, I think you're making a mountain
    out of a mole-hill.
    
    I can also understand your husband's reasons for being secretive
    about going.  After all, he knew what your reaction would be.  Yet
    he obviously wanted to go.  The reason's why he wanted to go are
    moot - he wanted to.  Was this right, given he knew your feelings?
    Well, let me ask you what you want to do in your relationship,
    enjoy being with another person who might have values not completely
    like yours, or force another person into compliance with your values?
    To turn it around, how would you feel if he told you he didn't agree
    with woman's rabble rousing and you couldn't attend any woman's
    lib meetings?  (not that he would, just consider what your feelings
    would be if he did).
    
    I think you forced him into secretiveness, and you ought to reconsider
    your actions.  You *can* say, "I won't do this thing."  You can
    say, "I won't have these things in my portion of the house, and
    in public portions of the house."  But you can NOT tell another
    person how to act and think.  That's enslavement.  And it forces
    the person being controlled to either bow to your wishes or be
    dishonest.
    
    Ok, *now*, why would he want to go?  Well, he's the only one who
    can really answer that.  My real question to you is why, at this
    late date, does that matter to you?  Why do you have to know all
    the reasons for his behavior several years ago?  Why does he have
    to justify himself to you?
    
    I think you don't have a pornography issue here, you have an issue
    regarding the balance of power in your relationship.
    
    --Louise

    I don't understand; where you married at the time this happened
    and separated, or were you just dating when it happened?  If you
    were separated, he might have done this to try and hurt you at the
    time.  I know how you feel (I'm a very jealous person), but I've
    learned not to let things in the past bother me (let bygones be
    bygones and all that jazz!!)     

    I tend to agree with some of the previous responses.  My reaction
    (as a woman) is "what's the big deal?!?!"  The problem of his
    lying to you has been addressed already.  As for why men go, I'd
    guess out of curiosity - no big deal.  I'm a normally quiet,
    conservative person, but I went to a strip joint with some guys
    from work.  It was definitely not what I'd consider pornographic,
    and I didn't really notice any outstandingly "sleazy" characters.
    Different men, I suppose, go for different reasons.  Why did I go?
    Who knows??  It was after a happy hour, and we weren't quite
    ready to go home, and felt a bit mischievous, I suppose.  I definitely
    like men, not women!!!  (Yes, it was a little embarrassing.)  But
    I don't think it's something "bad".
    
    Just one woman's opinion...
    
    Paula

       Eagles, shame on you for some of the things you just said. But on
       the basic point you are right. To .0 - this is over reaction of a
       major degree. This happened years ago! What is your problem? My
       ex and I went to strip bars a few times together. The people are
       not necessarily disgusting thank you (though I agree it does
       depend on where you go) - I've seen nearly as much skin in Las
       Vegas shows (and I like Las Vegas shows) with LOTS of plain old
       average Americans in the crowd. In fact, I'd says the big money
       shows were much more erotic in content than the corner strip bar.

       If your husband went to a prostitute you'd have a right to be
       upset, it's you he might bring a disease home to, but just to
       watch a show????  As long as he brings his "TURNED ON" home to
       you what's the big deal? More importantly, why does something
       that happened years ago, when you were apart, by a person you say
       has changed mean so much? Am I to be condemned for the stupid
       things I did in the past even though I've learned better now?
       That's sure what your attitude implies.

       Once last thought, I have had (and probably do have) friends who
       do things that many of you uptight types would say were terrible
       and I've got news for you - they are people too. A lot of those
       strippers are single mothers supporting children - most of them
       don't go home with the marks (and believe me, strip joints are to
       get guys to buy $50 bottles of Champaigne and not to give them
       sex) and from all accounts your husband didn't even DO anything.

       Don't cry wolf over petty slights - life has enough real
       problems. liesl_who_is_sorry_if_she_got_carried_away_here

         There is a great chance that he is taking your repeated
    questioning as nagging.  This is an act which took place long ago,
    and should not be allowed to start new, real problems.  At this
    point, there is nothing that he can do to make the past different.
    He wants to forget it.  You should, too.
    
                                      Greg

    Curiosity would be the answer for me if (and probably when) I go
    to a strip joint.  I know how some people feel about porn.  My roomate
    can't stand it.  He was even offended when we had to draw a nude
    model in a drawing class.  Me I can take it or leave it,  it's no
    big deal.  One thing I would like to state though,  You really should
    not take his being turned on by another woman personally.  According,
    to some psycologists,  a man has a sexual fantasy every couple of
    minutes.  These fantasies are not always about the man's wife. 
    Most of them actually aren't,  it is up to the man to control those
    feelings.  If your husband just looked,  you have nothing to worry
    about.  It doesn't mean he doesn't find you attractive or that he
    doesn't love you.  It might just mean the opposite.
    
    Bill
    

    Re: .0
    
    >- I am one that *needs* all the information about a situation
    >  so that I can assess it myself and work things out.  If I don't
    >  get information I tend to 'make-up' scenarios and then those
    >  scenarios become very real for me.
    >
    >  My husband has been unwilling answer my questions [Again, I know
    >  he is trying to 'forget' the whole thing and not hurt me any 
    >  further].
    
    I think you should explain this to your husband -- that not knowing
    hurts more.  I think this is the root of the problem.  However,
    you should keep firmly in mind that this did happen in the *past*.
    As you've said, he's not the same person, so it isn't entirely fair
    to punish him for what he did then.  On the other hand, it isn't
    entirely fair to require you to give up your hurt feelings; there's
    no statute of limitations for getting hurt.  Just don't hold on
    to the hurt.  Once you've gone over it and worked out your hurt
    feelings, leave it in the past.
    
    >  I feel very betrayed [I can imagine how I would feel
    >  about infidelity] that he may have wanted a 'turn-on' from someone
    >  else besides me.
    
    Not surprising, but you did say that you were having some rough
    times then.  If he had wanted a 'turn-on,' and that's still an IF
    at this point, it might be that the 'turn-on' was a secondary
    consideration.  He might have been simply reacting out of frustration
    or confusion and using his visit as a way of declaring independence
    or some such thing.  Again, I think the problem is getting trapped
    by the uglier 'maybes.'

	I must say I agree with th eagle on this issue. Maybe to a lesser degree
but, still he makes alot of sense to me.

	One point I'd like to make is, unless I read it wrong, he did *NOT* lie
to you! Did you ask him if he went to a strip joint and did he answer no??? To
hold back on telling somebody something that would hurt their feelings is not 
telling a lie.

	My personal feeling is....

"It doesn't matter where you get your appetite, as long as you eat at home."

or to put it another way

"Just 'cause you're on a diet doesn't mean you can't look at the menu."

Pete

    Well, some interesting comments.  I'd like to add a few.
    
    This may get long, but bear with me, it'll be worth reading (i think
    ;-)
    
    First, why did he go?  Maybe he was goaded into it by his friends,
    maybe he was curious.  The first time I went it was out of curiosity.
     Also understand that if it was goading from his peers, it would
    be very hard to say no (I am not saying that this is right, simply
    true).
    
    Who's idea was it?  I sense that you are asking "was it *his* idea.
     I can see where you would be concerned as the person "who is *you*"
    would prefer that your SO not be the type to choose this type of
    entertainment.  If it *was* his idea it was probably curiosity and
    doesn't really indicate any preference on his choice of entertainment.
    
    Why did he lie?  One noter commented that keeping information to
    oneself is not lieing.  I don't follow this belief.  An unspoke
    truth is a lie (and like any lie there are many levels to this).
     Take for instance when you were a child.  You may have broken a
    lamp while playing ball in the house.  You quickly glue the lamp
    and HOPE nobody notices.  When they do you are punished for breaking
    the lamp AND further punished for hiding the fact (ie: lieing),
    so most of us are raised with the backing that unspoken truths are
    a form of lie.  As to why he lied, it could be pure deseption, but
    I have never met two people in love that callusly deceived each
    other.  Could it be that he is ashamed (sp?) of what he did?  Or
    maybe he lied at first because he was scared and continued to do
    so because he was ashamed of the initial lie?  To continue to remind
    him of this, and your hurt, may cause further shame, and harm to
    the relationship.
    
    Why do men go to these things?  Women go too.  I would guess mostly
    out of curiosity and for kicks (eg: a crazy somewhat forbiden bit
    of fun).  I have heard some say "to get turned on", but I've noticed
    something.  After my first trip to a strip joint I went again to
    "get turned on", as a cheap thrill.  Didn't happen.  Supprised?
     I was!! ;-)  I found that it was hard to get turned on with a hundred
    hooting drunks (maybe that too hard a term, but you get my meaning),
    and with your *buddies* sitting right there!  I did find that I
    would get turned on *later* if there was an exceptional act that
    I may recall.  I even went so far as to question some of my friends
    after a particularly good show if they got turned on by it.  They
    ALL said "HECK YES!!".  I went further and asked some other personal
    questions and in the end they ALL admitted that they wern't "turned
    on", but "wait till they got home" ;-))  FWIW I got the same response
    from women friends in the same situation.
    
    As for what to do/not do, here is my suggestion...
    
    Talk - communicate.  That talk about 'you can't tell a person what
    they can and can't do' is, to an extent, correct.  You can't tell
    your husband "you can not do that, I forbid it" because you do not
    own him.  Nor can he say "I will go and you will leave me alone
    about it" because he doesn't own you.  In situations like this you
    need to tell him that this type of action (strip joints, lieing,
    etc.) hurts you and you don't like (or won't put up with it or
    whatever).  It is then up to him if your relationship is worth making
    changes for.  If he decides that he would rather hurt you than change
    then you'd be better off without him.  UNDERSTAND THAT I DO NOT
    BELEIVE THIS TO BE THE CASE.  I'VE READ NOTHING IN YOUR BASE NOTE
    TO INDICATE ANYTHING OTHER THAN THAT HE LOVES YOU, AS HE IS TALKING
    ABOUT IT.  Also understand that this IS a give and take situation.
     He may say that a particular *thing* is very important to him (be
    it strip joints or playing poker with the guys once a week or your
    involvement in feminist issues) and YOU have to make a decision as
    to weather your relationship is worth this 'event'.

    
    One last observation.  If this event happened in the distant past
    your husband may have forgotten much of the details of the event.
     You may ask him "who's idea was it" and he may say "bill's", later
    you may ask the same question and he may say "bob's".  This does
    not mean that he is lieing, he may simply not remember.  Be aware
    of this sort of possibility and don't jump to conclusions.
    
    Me?  I don't frequent strip joints, but I have gone to them, and
    would go again given the opportunity.  My wife knows this (and knew
    it before we got married).  My wife has, on occation, gone with
    me (great fun!) and it wouldn't supprise me if she wanted to go
    to one with her girl friends (hell, what's good for the goose is
    good for the gander!)
    
    Final line is that *I* find nothing wrong with this type of
    entertainment, if kept within the bounds of reason (I object to
    live sex shows (although, never having seen one I would go at least
    once, out of curiosity)).  I do not find porn to be degrading to
    women unless they are forced to do it.  If Jane Doe wants to strip
    for a magazine, it may be degrading to Jane Doe, but not to women.
     Nor is it degrading to men (let's not forget that men strip and
    pose for magazines and do porno flick -- FOR THE WOMEN.  It's the
    same thing)
    
    If you object to this sort of thing, inform your husband and drop
    it.  Let him make disisions.  Most of all communicate, don't pressure
    or push, allow the problem to settle and get back to 'relating'.
    
    Tell him you love him.  You'll both feel better.
    
    You may also want to show him these replies.  You have permission
    to show him mine.
    
    Here's hoping for the best for both of you.
    love,
    jim
    
                               

I wouldnt worry about it a bit.

My boyfriend goes once in a while when he's out with the guys 
and I don't think its a big deal.   And he doesnt mind if I go 
with the girls.  

I dont know - maybe if I were less secure about me or us I'd
be bothered (but I really don't think so - I've been to both 
and it isnt like the picture you have in your head).

It's like Mae West said -

"It doesn't matter where you get your appetite as long as you 
 go home to eat!"

Kp.

    i married a woman in 1963 who spent the last 25 years reacting to
    situations in our relationship that remind me of your reaction to
    your husband's *dalliance*...i'd like to share this thought with
    you:
    
    i took my marriage and family very seriously...i don't think anyone
    who knows us, would say differently.  the problem was, i *allowed*
    her to control me with just the sort of reactions you exhibit. 
    
    that control lasted until just a few years ago, and i began to realize
    that *I* needed to get out of it.  my divorce became final just
    yesterday.  i think most men would not allow themselves to be
    controlled *nearly* as long!
    
    i *caution you* that you learn to allow your man the freedom to
    be himself, to talk to you, and for you to talk to him.  absolute
    honesty (and frankly, i agree with one of the noters who stated
    that he doesn't feel your man actually lied, but was rather aware
    that his disclosure would elicit just such a reaction, and (like
    i did) chose not to expose himself and you to it) is essential here,
    not just to each other, but to yourself.  i think you are consiously
    or unconsiously attempting to *control* this man, and THAT IS WRONG!
     it *will* eventually destroy the marriage...
    

    tony _who_is_now_just_learning_what_freedom_REALLY_is
    

    
    	I went on a "date" to a strip-joint...couples got in free :*)
    	He watched the women; I watched the men.
    
    	It was fun at first, maybe a bit daring...  but after 3 dances
    	they all began to look alike...the dancing never improved...
    	The women started with hardly any clothes on and dropped off
    	a few in just a few minutes.  The men started out fully clothed
    	some in business suits (that was ok by me :*)) and ended up
    	in a g-string after much much longer...
    
    	One thing I noticed about the women:  they weren't smiling;
    	they couldn't smile and "dance" at the same time...  the guys
    	were pretty good dancers and seemed to enjoy themselves cause
    	the women in the audience were cheering.  The men in the audience
    	were just staring...men never get to *really* touch the women
    	but they can spend lots of bucks sticking $ in the g-strings
    	of the "dancer" and buying expensive drinks...
    
    	An interesting sidelight...  they encouraged the couples in
    	the audience to dance, so we did.  The single men in the audience
    	turned to watch us (fully clothed) instead of the nearly nude
    	women.  The comment my date made was quite interesting.  He
    	said "it would be more fun if the women started out wearing
    	dresses or business suits...more like the fantasies men *really*
    	have".
    	    
    
    	basically an expensive way to "look"...

    	It doesn't take nudity to turn people on, yet you're worrying 
    	whether someone aroused your husband at a strip joint _years 
    	ago_.  Let him live, let him breathe.  We all fantasize, and
    	many of us are aroused by situations/scents/sights that don't
    	involve nudity or pornography.
    
    	You can't monitor every second of his day for fear he finds
    	another woman attractive, be it at a strip bar, his office,
    	at a restaurant, or walking down the street.
    
    						Carla
    

    The following reply is from the anonymous author of the base note.
    
    
    

    I should probably give some background to my relationship, and
    maybe it will help.

    My SO and I had been living together for 3 years when this 
    happened.  As I said, we we're having a difficult time.  He
    had been lying to me about various things (some minor, some very
    major) and I was having a difficult time trying to trust him.
    I knew I loved and very much wanted the relationship to work.
    He would lie, we would have a big fight, we would make up, and he
    would promise not to lie again.  This pattern repeated itself
    many times, each time wearing away at the trust I was trying to 
    build in him.  I would spend most of my time wondering when he
    would hurt me again.

    All of this prompted us to go to counseling.  Among other things,
    the counselor wanted to find out 2 things, 1) Why lying was so 
    distasteful to me and 2) Why my SO lied so frequently.  Both solutions 
    were found by examining our childhoods.  I was severely punished 
    [abused] if I told the smallest of 'tales.'  Without really getting into
    it, my father would 'trap' me into situations where I could never 
    win, thus he could accuse me of lying.  Therefore, I learned to live
    on the straight and narrow and go as unnoticed as I could.

    My SO's father died very suddenly when he was 11.  His mother was
    devastated.  My SO did not ever want to upset her so he learned
    to lie and embellish, so she would never have to be bothered with 
    things that he thought would make her unhappy.

    Through counseling we were able to realize these things about each
    other and then began to build a very loving and trusting relationship
    which culminated in our marriage a few months ago.  Well, I found
    out about the strip joint, as I said, and all of those bad memories
    have come flooding back.  My old feelings about "OK, if I found
    this out now, what else is going to hit me"  "Has he started
    lying again" etc.

    I hope this sheds some light on this situation.  I would like
    to comment on some of the replies.

    re: 1

    My husband and I do communicate very well now, except for this
    one incident.  He is very understanding of how and why I am feeling 
    the way I do, but can't seem to ease the pain.  I guess I have to do
    that by myself which is why I entered the note.  I thought someone
    could say that one thing that I need to hear and I'm not even sure
    what that is.

    re: 2
  
    Yes, you were very blunt, but I think you missed the point.  At 
    first I was very hurt by your response, but then I realized that
    maybe I didn't give enough of the picture.  I'd like to get
    across that his secretiveness is not something I created, but
    rather something that I inherited.

    His values are not so different from mine that he cannot understand
    how any individual would be hurt by being lied to. I don't
    believe I am forcing my 'rabble-rousing woman's lib' opinions on him.
    You and I do differ on what we find degrading to woman and I think
    we should agree to disagree.

    Re: 5

    I didn't expect to get coddled by entering my note, but I also
    didn't expect to get the replies I have been getting, especailly
    from Eagles whose notes I've found to be (so far) tactful and 
    sensitive and respectful.

>    Then with all due respect, ma'am ... take yourself and a few feminist
>    friends if you feel it would be the right thing to do ... and GO
>    and find out if your worst fears are true ... bring some MACE in
>    your purse if you fear personal assault ...  Wear a Dukakis Mask
>    if you are afraid you might be recognized ...

    I feel as though certain issues are being pulled out of my note
    that are flavoring it in a way that I did not intend.  I haven't had 
    an opportunity to read all the notes, but the ones I have have accused 
    me unfairly because of the fact the I am that 'F' word (read: feminist).
    
    Believe it or not, I do *let my husband* do out with the guys ;). (for
    those that need an explanation - the phrase in '*' is sarcastic). Most
    of his friends are my good friends, I do my best drinking with these
    guys.

>   This old Eagle would NEVER have apologized !!!  You don't like it,
>   go smother somebody else ...  Eagles only want to "hang out" where
>   they are appreciated and not where they are CAGED !!!

    I should clarify that he has apologized for *lying* to me.


>   ~--e--~  Eagles_Didn't_Get_Divorced_Over_Strip-Joints_If_It_Matters

    "For better or for worse"  Who said anything about divorce?


     Re: 7

>    do things that many of you uptight types would say were terrible
                                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^

     It's insults like this that have made me sorry that I have
     entered this note.

     I have found out first hand how the issues in such files as
     womannotes can get interpreted to fit anyone's individual thinking.

>    strippers are single mothers supporting children - most of them
       don't go home with the marks (and believe me, strip joints are to
       get guys to buy $50 bottles of Champaigne and not to give them
       sex) 

     I do agree with you that the women are *usually* the victims in
     situations like these.

    Re: 9 

>    I think you should explain this to your husband -- that not knowing
>    hurts more.  I think this is the root of the problem.  However,
>    you should keep firmly in mind that this did happen in the *past*.
>    As you've said, he's not the same person, so it isn't entirely fair
>    to punish him for what he did then.  On the other hand, it isn't
>    entirely fair to require you to give up your hurt feelings; there's
>    no statute of limitations for getting hurt.  Just don't hold to
>    to the hurt.  Once you've gone over it and worked out your hurt
>    feelings, leave it in the past.

     Thanks for the thoughtful response.  I am trying to put it in the
     past, but it is not easy letting go of pain.

     Re:  12

     To me withholding something can be as much of a lie as verbalising
     a 'non-truth'.  This is something that came out in counseling, some
     people agree, other don't.


     Re: 14

     Thanks, Jim for saying what everyone else has been saying, but
     putting it in a way as not to offend, but to educate.

     Thanks again.


     Re: 15 

     I truly wish I had your confidence.  thx

     Re: 16

     Tony,

     This issue was mentioned earlier (control, power, etc.) and I 
     have to disagree.  My husband is a wonderful man, very giving
     and understanding.  We have a great marriage.  We do communicate.
     I understand how my behavior can be interpreted as manipulating. 
     This *is* something that I have thought about and talk to him about.
     He understands my feelings, I did not want to get through this situation
     by badgering him or manipulating him.  I don;t know if I can
     explain this very well, it was sort of the reason why I entrered
     the note - to maybe get ways of dealing with this that I haven't
     been able to work out with him.


In closing, I might add that not all people are fortunate enough to be free
of every hang-up life deals us whether it be emotional, mental, sexual, 
or intellectual as some of you noters so obviously are. 

    I figure it's okay to go to these places (just like it's okay to
    see porn flicks) once in a while.  A steady diet isn't very satisfying,
    I'd guess.  
    
    I must admit when I heard that the management meetings at a small
    start-up firm I used to work for were held when the four guys went
    to the "Lamplighter" in Worcester (a strip joint), I was pretty
    surprised.  No wonder there were no women in upper management there!
    
    But, seriously, if it's over and done with, and he has apologized,
    and he hasn't been lying anywhere near as much, why hassle over
    it?  Is this ripple on the surface symptomatic of something else
    that's troubling you?  Is this a "gut reaction" that something may
    still be "terribly wrong"?  I can't tell you how to settle it in
    your mind, I can only tell you how I'd try to settle it in mine.
    
    If he really loves you, he may well decide not to go again (although
    I can't speak for him, I don't have his perspective on this).
    
    If you really love him, you'll forgive him, and perhaps if he really
    wants to go again, you'll let him do so.  This will also affect
    whether or not he tells you if he goes.
    
    I dunno, I'm off in left field on this one, never having had to
    handle it.
    
    -Jody
    

    Dear anonymous:
    
    Is it safe to assume that the incident that recently came to light
    happened during that time when he was doing a lot of the 'lying
    and deception' ?  If so, then perhaps, you can try now, to concentrate
    on who he IS TODAY, not who he was three years ago.  Yes, I can
    understand that hearing about a past incident brings back all the
    bad memories of that difficult time. But, it sounds like the incident 
    happened during a time when hiding things from you was his typical 
    behavior (I'm just guessing from what I've read...).  I can understand
    the anger...and maybe he does not want to discuss it because he
    doesn't want to relive the bad times and dig up all the pain that
    was. 

    Anyway, if you've come so far from those days, think about the progress
    and how hard you've both worked to be as happy as you are today.
    You cannot change the past. It happened but despite it all, you
    are still together. It sounds like you need to let go of the past
    and forgive him, forgive yourself ? and let it be. You say he's
    changed, accept that and continue to trust in him as he is TODAY.
    
    Unfortunately, this is something I believe you need to do yourself.
    I don't think anyone can give you the answers with shedding past
    pain and bad memories. It's hard work, but worth it. I don't believe
    there are any magic words to make anger or pain disappear (often
    I've wished there were !). 
    
    well, just my .02 ...
    
    Joan G.
    
    

    Geez, you know, anonymous, your relationship with your husband sounds
    really super.  It is a credit to both of you that you are willing
    to hassle through these things in order to keep your relationship
    the best it can be.  Seriously, my last two lovers left the instant
    we started dealing with hard stuff.  Luckily, I had one lover early
    on who cared enough to work through everything until we agreed that
    our problems were too big.
    
    Finding about a lie, a reminder of the "old" behavior, and you fear
    that he will either 1) start lying again, or 2) start telling you
    about other stuff that happened back then.
    
    Seems to me you are braced for both.  Can you attack each of these
    separately?  His "reformation" is pretty recent, and it is possible
    that he will slip unknowingly back into old, bad habits.  Would
    it help if you _assumed_ (and told him so) that he was going to
    have an occasional relapse, but that EVERY time it happens the two
    of you agree to nip it in the bud?
    
    About the other, old lies that he has: seems to me he's going to
    need to purge them, and you're going to need to hear them (preferably
    from _him_ - these things are worse when you find them out from
    someone else).  If you were to say "it's past, and it's forgiven,
    please don't tell me", I think that would be reinforcing the reasons
    that led him to lie to his mother (and consequently, everybody else
    too).
    
    Hmm, on the other hand, an all_or_nothing approach is pretty limited.
    Perhaps you could agree to have him feed you a steady diet of all
    the _big_ lies, one at a time (so you have a chance to react, then
    forgive them, and he has the time to recover from your probably
    negative reaction, see that you indeed still love him, then screw
    up the courage to tell you about another old lie), but when most
    of the big ones are gone, you both drop the little ones.
    
    I think that it's likely you're going to be hearing about old lies
    from him for a long time, and there'll probably be new ones mixed
    in some too.  I think these are pretty much inescapable in the context
    of your relationship.  If your relationship is worth keeping, it
    must be worth finding a way to deal with this aspect.
    
    I still think you're lucky, though...
    
    Lee

Re: .19

>>    I didn't expect to get coddled by entering my note, but I also
>>    didn't expect to get the replies I have been getting, especailly

You're right - you did get some replies that were a little harsh.
I think a lot of people got thrown off by the "sleazy creeps"
part of .0.   Most readers have been to a strip bar at one time or 
another and took offense.  (Me too  - I almost commented on it
in my first reply, I wanted to stick up for them.)  

If this all happened before the counselling, and if he truly is a 
different person, please, forget it.

Kp.

    re .19 - Ok, so *that's* the real situation!  I didn't get that
    picture at all from .0.  And my comment regarding rabble rousing
    was meant to illustrate a possible opinion of your spouse, not
    my opinion of you and your activities.  I've "roused some rabble"
    of a feminist nature myself!
    
    I think that a reply a few past, regarding purging the lie-queue
    over a period of time, was pretty good.  It'll take a weight off
    his shoulders AND yours - it's hard living with lies no matter
    which side you're on.  I still think you need to look at whether
    or not you're being unbendable on some issues that he really DOES
    have a differing opinion on.  With the background you've described,
    it sounds like he needs to know that he *can* do things that you
    disagree with, and you'll still love him and there won't be hell
    to pay.  That sounds wrong - I don't mean it to sound like you'd
    be permitting him, just that it's understood that you are not
    restraining him, that you're strong enough to hear all the
    truth, that your relationship is strong enough to stand some
    disagreement, and that the disagreement will be expressed and then
    the issue will be dropped.

    Thanks for hanging in there and responding to clear up the 
    misconceptions.
    
    --Louise

       To .0 - I'm sorry if I offended you but you offended me. My maid
       of honor at my wedding (over 15 years ago) was a stripper. (And no
       she didn't dance for the wedding :*)) She did this to support
       herself while she tried to make it as an artist. You basically
       said we and the men we know were "sleazy creeps". You implied by
       the depth of your despair that just going to the strip joint was
       the lowest most disgusting thing your husband could have done.

       As for the word pornography, I too dislike pornography, just
       removing clothing is not pornography. During the time my friend
       was a dancer complete nudity was not even allowed though I know
       it is now. Pornography is obscene, nudity is not, even in front
       of others.

       One final thought, the men that frequent strip joints are just
       like the men you work with. There are bank VPs and construction
       workers, accountants and programmers. Most of them are not
       "sleazy creeps", the creeps harrass women on the street and at
       work. The creeps go to Sunday school and then descriminate
       against you on the job. The creeps don't always look sleazy and
       that makes them hard to spot. liesl

RE: .0

"As it turns out they went a couple of years ago (during a time when we weren't
married and going through a difficult time in our relationship)."

You feel betrayed over something that your husband did before you were married,
and you feel that that one act (going to a strip joint once) makes him a
different person, and that you would not have married him, while forgetting all
the other moments of his life that you have shared (presumably happy) with (or
even without) him.  Which is more truely your husband?  I don't think it is the
incident at the strip joint.  Especially since your husband (who was not your
husband at the time) has said that he 'regrets going', and you say he is a
'changed person'.

It sounds to me like you have belabored the point with him way too much as it
is, and if you have problems dealing with it, you might want to consider
counseling to learn how you want to deal with it, instead of taking it out on
him. Then, hopefully, you will be able to communicate and deal with the
situation together.

This instance seems trivial to me, (although I *do* understand how you feel),
and being trivial does fall into the 'what you don't know won't hurt you'
category.  I question whether you even have the "right" to know about the
incident, being as it was before you were married, if your husband does not want
to talk about it, and you "must" react badly to it.  You are putting your
husband into a double bind, damned if he tells you, damned if he doesn't
tell you.  Is that the kind of stress you want to put on your mate?  Yes,
you should communicate about how you feel about the situation, and come to
some agreement about how to handle the situation, but you can do that without
making it a "control" issue.

I am being very presumptious, but the tone of your note in general, (bringing up
the past, holding it against him, "He obviously LIED to me, about not telling
me, and obviously the night he went he told me he was somewhere else." [not
obvious to me], "He has apologized profusely about this", "he *is* a different
person now", "I tend to 'make-up' scenarios" ...), it sounds to me like there
are a lot of control, victim and rescuer roles going both ways in your marriage.
It does not sounds like two people freely united as I envision marriage. I think
that you and your husband have a lot of basic problems in your relationship. 

Please forgive me for being blunt, but that is what I see.
 
"Why did he lie?  One noter commented that keeping information to oneself is not
lieing.  I don't follow this belief.  An unspoke truth is a lie (and like any
lie there are many levels to this). Take for instance when you were a child.
You may have broken a lamp while playing ball in the house.  You quickly glue
the lamp and HOPE nobody notices.  When they do you are punished for breaking
the lamp AND further punished for hiding the fact (ie: lieing), so most of us
are raised with the backing that unspoken truths are a form of lie."

This assumes that going to a strip club is the equivelent of destroying someone
else's lamp.  I do not believe that it is.  There is even the Fifth Amendment
that says that you cannot be forced into the choice between lying or condemning
ourselves; there is always the option of keeping silent.  Every person has the
right to share that about themselves that they wish to, and nothing more.
Anything else is an invasion of privacy, and a rape of the person's
individuality.  The issue that when two people marry, that they should strive to
give each other the most honest sense of what they are like so that both know
what they are getting into, is an entirely seperate issue.

I feel that for a relationship to be the best possible one, it must be possible
for them to share any thought/idea/*.  One of the prerequisites that helps
sometimes is to be able to share something FYIO, FOR YOUR INFORMATION ONLY. That
is, you are not to react to it, take action on it, or think differently of the
person for sharing with you.  You must act as if it had not been said. The
sharing, whatever the subject, is a plus in itself, which keeps something
unshared from growing into a mountain and coming between two people.  When you
withhold a secret, you withhold a part of your person. 

Sadly, most people are not capable of 'just listening' in this manner, just as
in this situation, and secrets are built, not because someone won't tell, but
because someone cannot 'just listen'.

"My SO and I had been living together for 3 years when this happened.  As I
said, we we're having a difficult time.  He had been lying to me about various
things (some minor, some very major) and I was having a difficult time trying to
trust him...."

I don't believe that what you describe in your second note really changes my
understanding of the situation.  (I believe I understood it as well from the
first, and this confirms it.)  Essentially, you ride herd on anyone long enough,
and they *will* lie or get out.  This is a control issue between *both* of you.

This is a classic "co-dependancy" problem, where you constrain his freedom, he
breaks *your* constraint, you get mad, but then 'kiss and make up', enabling the
situation to repeat itself.

"This pattern repeated itself many times, each time wearing away at the trust I
was trying to build in him.  I would spend most of my time wondering when he
would hurt me again."

Sounds like you've made your fears into reality...

"You and I do differ on what we find degrading to woman and I think we should
agree to disagree."

The question is can you give your husband that freedom which you give everybody
else?

I don't think you are out of the woods yet...

"If you were to say "it's past, and it's forgiven, please don't tell me", I
think that would be reinforcing the reasons that led him to lie to his mother
(and consequently, everybody else too)."

Sounds like good advice...

Jim.

    i was really impressed by the reply (.19) from anonymous.  but it
    changes my observation very little.  i do concede that my statement
     in .16 that there was no lie involved *may* be wrong...but i think
    that issue is moot.  
    i was married for nearly 25 years to a person who insisted on an
    explanation for everything.  every issue was either black or
    white...never a shade of grey or even the hint of color.  she had
    a nearly photographic memory (now THAT is hard to live with) and
    could remember the slightest detail of the most obcure event if
    it suited her need.  in a nutshell, she was able to control the
    marriage by manipulating me with guilt, hurt or any number of emotional
    reactions...including pure logic (or what seemed to be).  
    i *still* think your reaction is manipulative...yet you say you
    are willing to "agree to disagree" with at least one noter.  your
    (admittedly sarcastic) *let my husband* comment, while you may not
    intentionally MEAN it, tells it all.  
    i agree with the eagle...i'm not at all sure you don't have some
    really deeply rooted problems in your marriage.   i hope the outcome
    for you is better than for me.
    why does your husband have to live up to *your* expectations?
    
    tony

    	I think that persons seeking advice in these files should
    completely inform the audience of the circumstances at the BEGINNING
    and not come back 19 replies later with clarification. This is the
    third or fourth note that has appeared and many replies later more
    clarification comes. At that point I wonder if the author is making
    things a bit more slanted for increased support of their position.
    	
    	When I transferred to Mass., I would go to the MAX in Worcester
    every two to three weeks with a couple of friends from work. I had
    the opportunity to meet most of the dancers (One friend's brother
    worked there and introduced me) . I also met some of the road tour
    dancers who travel the country from place to place making somewhere
    in the vacinity of $250-$500,000 on the tour. They are the woman
    who perform in the X-rated movies and pose for the centerfolds of
    Penthouse, Hustler, etc. magazines. I met Marilyn Chambers, Kathy
    Kane and others and we discussed the feminist issues of exploitation
    and degradation. They didn't feel that they were being exploited,
    rather they were doing the exploiting by being paid phenom sums
    of money to do nothing more than a wife or girlfriend does for their
    husbands or boyfriends on a regular basis (remove clothing). It
    was that simple to their way of thinking. 
    	Not everyone that enters a strip joint is a sleaze either. That
    would be like saying that everyone who went a bar is a drunk. Lumping
    people into groups is unfair. I surely don't consider myself a sleazy
    creep. 
    	I would like to share something with everyone concerning the
    people who do go to strip joints and X-rated entertainment. Which
    is why I hate lumping people into categories. 
    	While in college, I had a class "Sexual Attitudes" in which
    I did research on the community theaters that showed X-rated films,
    on the adult book stores, and the peep show stores. Many of the
    men who attend (and who allowed me an interview, no women except
    the owners/operators would interview) said that after
    a day of stress and strain they would go to these films just to
    wind down and relax. Some of them were lawyers, bankers, and other
    professionals. Most feature films don't start until 7 PM so the
    X-rated were only movies available at that time of day.  What surprized
    me was that the crowd between 5-7 pm was approx. 14% female and usually
    unescorted. I did this research over a 4 month period in 1975. I
    would say that the sexual revolution was beginning its decline.
    BTW...this was an elective humanities course while doing my Bus. Admin.
    degree work. 
    
    Ken
    

    inre re .29
    
    In defense of the base noter, it is very hard to write a note that
    covers all the relevant material or anticipates what the responses
    will be without writing a book. It might be more appropriate to
    encourage people to check back regularly on a note that they enter
    or have entered so that a real dialogue can ensue.
    
    Bonnie

    re:30  I understand that Bonnie, but the base note should state
    such recurring behaviors and problems as were put forth in .19.
    Many of us comment and then find that we don't have all of the
    information, the base noter gets upset because they weren't understood
    and then clarification is required and now the responders are griping
    saying "If I had known that before......". I find this to be prevalent
    in other notes files I particpate in also. I'm not attacking the
    base noter, just stating that when people are seeking advice or
    comment on a problem, they should be sure that all of the information
    is available before they submit it, and they may find response are
    more in line with what they are searching for.
    
    Ken  

    The following reply is from the anonymous author of the base note.
    
    

Well, I understand that ~--e--~ has been taking alot of heat for
some of his comments.

Well, I have exposed (pun intended) myself to him off-line and we seem
to have come to a better understanding about how each other feels.

I do owe an apology to those that I offended by using the phrase
'sleazy creeps'.  I apologized to ~--e--~ and I feel that those
others who were insulted deserve the same.  I am truly sorry
for using those words, I really didn'y even mean it that way
(I can't go into another long explanation - it's too draining)
but, believe it or not, that phrase was coming more from past
experiences than from any real feminist viewpoint.  I didn't
speak for all feminists when I said it and I certainly didn't
speak well for myself.

I wonder about the direction my note would have taken if I didn't
offend so many people, it was not deliberate. 

I also want to say that, when I wrote the original note, I was
not thinking about what might be inferred or not inferred. I couldn't
be objective.  I realized after the replies, that I needed to give
more information.  And the second note came late because the weekend
had elapsed (and 18 replies) before I realized what was happening.

This note has been quite a strain on me, but, in trying to be
objective, I am trying to put things in perspective.  I do
have a wonderful husband, and I have to let go of this.  I am
trying.

This will be my last reply.  What a long strange trip it's been.

    I've set replies .35 through .37 hidden, as they contain an inquiry
    about and suggestions for locations of strip joints.  Seeing as
    the author of the base note expressed her distaste for such places,
    this tangent seems out of order to me (not to mention off the topic).
    
    			Steve (co-moderator)
    

    
    
    I admire your sensitivity, Steve.
    
    Deb
    
    

    Well done Steve.
    
    Holly
    

     Perhaps this is only on the periphery of the focus of this topic,
but I kind of feel that the women, the strippers, referred to (implicitly) 
in this "strip joint" discussion..well, somebody ought to speak up for them (!),
and perhaps some may wonder, "Who are they, and why do they do that?  
Are they bad people, good people, or what?"

    And obviously I can't speak for all cases, but ... I have had two roommates 
who worked full time as nude dancers in the Combat Zone in Boston.  I lived 
with each of them for at least 3 years (and am still good friends with one of 
them 10 years later), so I feel reasonably comfortable about representing
their conscious motivations and feelings for being in this line of work.

    They danced in the Zone because it was an easy way to make a lot of
money.   And they enjoyed it (more than other types of work).

    Both of these women had college degrees (4 yrs) and from time to time
they would take "straight" jobs.  But they just didn't like the 9 to 5
straight world and the bullsh** they had to put up with in that (this)
type of workstyle.  Neither of them expressed any interest in 
"escaping" from what they were doing.  Either of them could have walked
out any day and have had a (straight) job offer within days (one of them
did go to work in a straight job, later on, as a police officer in Miami, Fl.)

    But dancing paid them (a lot) more and gave them something like flex-time.  

    They would sometimes come home complaining about some guy not 
understanding "No, that's not what I'm here for" when he propositioned her,
but basically there seemed to be few hassles.  One does meet some low-life
characters (often, it would seem, the people operating the "lounge" 
(or whatever it's called), and then it was time to just quit and go down
the street to someplace else that would treat them better).
Overall, they were fascinated with the diversity of people they met.

    Their boyfriends, I noticed, were always people who had no association 
with their work (same for us roommates! ... most of us were in the medical 
field).

    I probably had more hangups about their work than they did!  While
I would sometimes pick them up after work, I never went in to see their
routines!  It was just, "so how was work?"  "Ok, but they're two weeks
behind in paying me, and I'm pissed!; let's stop at Star Market and get
some ice cream..." -- that kind of afterwork talk.

     And now, years later, the one I'm still in touch with looks back
on those times with a smile on her face ... she'll still go to a 
costume party dressed as a "stripper" ... and entertain people ... (with
her stories...!).

   She's now a very caring, concerned mom, and she's "good people".

			                      Dennis

    Re: .41
    
         As long as it ain't MY sister doing it...
    
                                      Greg

    RE: .42
    
    Are you saying your sister needs your permission to choose a job?
    
    Claude
    

    
    personally, if my daughters told me they were going to be
    strippers or prostitutes or.....whatever....
    i would just ask if it was what they really wanted to do...
    and if the answer was "yes"
    they would have my blessing.
    
    

    I don't think I could give my blessing if it was one of my daughters
    (which I don't have yet).  But I think I would love them enough
    that I would not drive them away.  I would simply let them know,
    in a nice way, that I disapproved of their profession and wished
    they would find a different job.
    
    Ed..
    

RE base note; my spouse and I have a wonderful relation since we
share a lot of our deep feelings and "try" not to pass judgement
on those feelings. Feelings including what turns us on, what
doesn't.

Releasing my inner feelings was a learned experience; I lost my
first spouse through death just after graduation and learned to
release my feelings so that I don't hurt. I believe that your
husband needs all the love and nurturing to help him release his
inner feelings to you. Bear in mind, he may never be able to.

Judy and I started our relationship by sharing those feelings and
continue to work on those areas that I am still afraid to share.

cal

       RE: .0
       
       	My opinion? You're making too much of it.. Geez, it's just
       a strip joint..  If someone I was seeing went off with her
       girlfriends to see a male strip show I'd be saying "Have a great
       time!"
       
       	If this is the worst your hubby has done then I'd say give the guy
       a break...
       
       							mike

    I would actually tease her...and joke about how she shouldn't bring
    anyone back.......Ok to window shop, but don't try anything on for
    size......
    
    8-) x 1000
    
    Bill