Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    
    	Ever hear the expression "He's the last person in this world
    I'd ever expect to..."? Perhaps that behavior is so contrary to the
    set of *assumptions* people build up from their experiences with
    you, it's just such a shock for them to see you cry, and they just
    cant handle it - as in "Whoa!". 
    
    	"Hey; you know that guy that looks like Arnold Schwartzenegger
    - the body builder?" "Yeah." "Well, he's like balling his eyes out
    there in his office" "Well, what'd you do?" "Nothin' - *I* aint goin near
    him!"
    
    	The silly assumption here is that "This guy normally takes a lot 
    of pain and can deal with it", so, if he is *crying*, something
    must *really* be up and perhaps it's best to just stay away - else
    you might get yourself broken in half! Of course, what's real is that
    he takes pain just as hard as anyone else, has all the same kinds of 
    feelings as anyone else, and needs comfort and Human understanding,
    just like anyone else does too.
    
    	Joe Jas 
                                          

    You don't sit in an office near me, I would guess, because I would
    very likely come in and ask if I could help.  I've been a shoulder
    for both male and female friends and acquaintances.  But then, I'm
    pretty wierd too.  Women, after all, don't lift weights....
    
    --Louise

    I think it is more the whole idea that men in general aren't supposed
    to cry, no matter what their physique may be.  I made the mistake of
    crying (well, more like choking up at the time) in "public" after
    I was humiliated by my supervisor at a project meeting.  (It's been
    six years now, and I still remember it vividly...)  The reaction I
    got was enough to make me certain that I would never do that again.
    (It also prompted other actions on my part...)
    
    Since then, there have been occasions when I had to cry.  But I always
    did it in private, where nobody could hear.  I think it is healthy -
    the alternative is to keep the emotions bottles up inside and let them
    fester.  A good cry really helps.
    
    					Steve

    I used to think that I should I should hide to when I felt like
    crying.  I don't anymore.  If I am sitting in a resaurant or home
    or anywhere and I am upset I cry.
    
    The only place I will not let anyone see me cry is at work.  After
    work, with the same people, is different. 
    
    Linda

I consider myself very lucky.  I allow myself to cry.  But it was not always
that way.  I feel that I am doubly lucky because I allow myself to cry, not just
in angry, hurt, or humiliation, but also from joy, or from expressing something
that comes from deep inside me, like now...

There are times that I still have trouble crying.  There are occasions when I
really need to cry, but I do not allow myself to.  I will not cry when bing
humiliated to give someone the pleasure of hurting me, I will only cry to
communicate that I feel hurt to someone who cares, and did not mean to hurt me.
I guess I feel that crying is a means of communication as well as it's other
benefits. 

I can remember not being able to cry in the past, but I cannot really remember
the time when I learned to cry.  I guess that I learned to cry when my religious
life first became important to me.  I learned to cry by first crying with/to
God.  Gradually I learned to trust to cry with people as well.

Jim. 

    
       I cried when I was a boy. That was not to long ago but many things
    have happened in the last 7-9 years. I now have the responsibility
    of leadership and guidence to people other than myself. I take that
    responsibility very seriously. The only form of leadership I know
    is one of quiet strength and positive direction. In developing this
    manner of dealing with emotional situations control is of the essence.
       Crying is not part of my definition of control. There is no doubt
    in my mind that it shows weakness of character in trying situations
    where people may be counting on someones levelheadedness to get
    them through a bad time. 
       I might stop and ask you why you were crying but would be more
    likely to tell you to pull yourself together and take some time
    off to straighten things out.
    
                                              John C.
    

    I too allow myself to cry.  I have no problem with it, consider
    it one of my strengths.  I also notice the reaction this causes
    and get frustrated when I hear so many people talk of a liberated
    or mature attitude about it and act so differently.
    
    jim
    

    
    Its an unfortunate belief people have that men dont cry.  (I'm speaking
    in general terms now.)  I dont have that belief but I feel I've
    been conditioned to think that men feel that way, and if I did see
    a man cry, I would feel bad that I "caught" him crying because I
    would think he wouldnt want me to see him.  (That sentence
    sounds confusing but I've re-written it 5 times now and I dont know
    how else to say it.)  I think men feel that to cry is to lose
    self-respect and the respect of others if he is seen.  In my eyes,
    that is simply not so. I find I have more respect for someone who
    is comfortable enough to show his emotions.  Most men are so tied
    up in their egos that to find one that isnt is refreshing.  
    
    I used to feel that to show tears, even for a woman, is showing
    weakness.  Now, It doesnt take much at all for me to cry (when I'm
    extremely happy or compassionate).  Its funny though, now that I
    think about it, its harder for me to cry when I'm really sad than
    if I'm really happy.  I've cried so much in the recent past (from
    sadness) that I sometimes feel I have no tears left so no tears come
    out.
                                                             

    
    Crying ... my best outlet for both happy and sad times.  It wasn't
    something invented for women ... it is a natural function of the
    human species.  I often wondered if that has anything to do with
    the fact that men have more heart attacks and die younger.  Crying
    cleanses our emotional being, if we don't allow that to happen
    it will come out through some other channel (ie. high blood-pressure,
    heart attacks etc).
    
    Back to .0 question,  I will and have comforted both women and men
    who were crying. Because it is so taboo in our society, I tend to gain
    great respect for a man who can cry ... he's admitting he's human.
    
    Donna

        It is common to think that to cry shows lack of control and
        weakness, and further to feel that any amount of lack of control
        or weakness is a bad thing. Besides being common, I think it is
        very clearly mistaken.
        
        One of the things I've learned over the years is that it is
        impossible to have 100% control of anything in the real world,
        yourself included, and that a willingness to accept that one is
        not always in control is a great strength. It keeps one from
        wasting a lot of energy on illusions. This allows one to focus
        one's strength on the tasks that need it and which can be
        achieved. Also, a firm basis in reality helps one to apply one's
        strengths more effectively.
        
        Weakness, too, is not a completely bad thing. Strength alone
        results in brittleness. A good sword is flexible enough to bend.
        The only trees that survive in harsh climates are the ones that
        can bend before the wind or under the weight of snow. Our
        weaknesses can be a great strength. Beyond that weakness that we
        have but don't admit to are points of extreme vulnerability.
        
        I may not always be in control, and I quite definitely have a
        number of weaknesses, but I very seldom lose. A part of this
        comes, as I have said in another recent note comes from choosing
        my battles and my definitions of "win" and "lose" careful.
        Another part of this comes from appyling at least enough
        strength to anything that I consider to be a win/lose situation
        to assure that I have the maximum chance of winning. Yet another
        part of it comes from knowing and accepting my weaknesses and
        the limits of my control.
        
        Yes, I weep (seldom cry as I would rather not cause a scene)
        when the situation calls for it, even at work. No, I don't think
        that acknowledging that there are powerful emotions in the work
        place is weak or bad. In fact, not dealing with the emotional
        content of work can lead to considerable trouble. I also laugh,
        shout, blanch, blush, shake, and bluster as appropriate at work.
        
        Occasionally people have tried to exploit the "weakness" of my
        willingness to express emotion at work. This almost always
        happens in a situation where there is a corelation between their
        winning and my losing. The error of mistaking emotion for
        weakness is a mistake, and if I agree that that only one of us
        can win, I will generally exploit any mistakes the "opposition"
        makes, this one included. Off hand I can't think of anyone who
        has effectively used my emotionalism against me, and some who
        have been very surprised to have the tables turn.
        
        JimB.

    The one thing that irks me is all the talk we heard about "liberation";
    about how men were no longer going to be expected to live up to John
    Wayne role models; that it was OK to cry!
    
    The ones who proclaimed this new freedom are the same ones who'll
    call you a "wimp" the first time YOU DO CRY!
    
    Did you see "Tootsie"?  Remember the scene where Dustin Hoffman
    actually says to Jessica Lange all the things she HAD PREVIOUSLY
    said SHE WANTED A MAN TO SAY TO HER?
    
    There are lots of parallels!

    
    If there's one thing I have contempt for, it's a man who says men
    are not suppose to cry; it isn't manly.

    Horse feathers!!!  I'd rather meet a man who has the ability to
    shed tears than one who thinks a man is of weak character if he
    does.  To cry is to show feeling.  Men who get stuck in the "men 
    don't cry" rathole don't know how to show their innermost feelings.
    They might as well stick their head in the sand for all the good it
    does them and the people around them.
 
    This is only my opinion, but I think it's time for these men to
    grow up and build their own character.  It's their character
    that is weak, not the one of the man who allows himself to cry.
   
    - Beckie

    re: .0 TUNER::FLIS
               
    Hello Jim,
    
    Consider yourself lucky, as does Jim B. [see below]. There's nothing 
    wrong with you. It's the people around you who need to learn from you...

    re: .5, 
    Hi Jim B.,    
                                                          
    >I consider myself very lucky.  I allow myself to cry.  But it was not 
    >always that way.  I feel that I am doubly lucky because I allow
    >myself to cry, not just in angry, hurt, or humiliation, but also from 
    >joy, or from expressing something that comes from deep inside me,...
                                                          
     You are, indeed lucky!! 

      

>I can remember not being able to cry in the past, but I cannot really remember
>the time when I learned to cry.  I guess that I learned to cry when my religious
>life first became important to me.  I learned to cry by first crying with/to
>God.  Gradually I learned to trust to cry with people as well.
         
 Beautiful words, Jim. I can relate to them so well.
       
    
     "I asked God to teach me how to love.
      In His infinite wisdom,
      He taught me how to cry."
                  
                             
      Irena
 

    There are situations in which it's okay for men to cry; you just
    have to pick the times and places and the people you are with.
    Too bad it can't be all the time; maybe someday it WILL be all the
    time.  
    
    Have you ever been in any group workshops that encourage emotional
    expression?  I've been to several at Spring Hill in Ashby, Mass.
    (I can give you more information about them if you're interested).
    They are very supportive and very emotionally cathartic.  The men-only
    weekend workshop I attended a few years ago was really amazing.
    The amount of emotions and tears that flowed was impressive.  And
    the incredible feeling of awesome, flowing male energy that permetated
    the weekend certainly put the lie to any notion that crying men
    are weak!!!  I'm surprised the building didn't levitate.
    

    
    re: .13
    
    I just read my previous reply again to make sure I hadn't said what
    you thought I did.
    
    I never said men who *can't* cry have weak characters.  I believe
    if you read my reply again you will see that the people I referred
    to were those men who get caught up in the "men aren't suppose
    to cry because it isn't manly" attitude.
    
    If you misunderstood my meaning, I'm sorry.
    
    re: .15
    
    I think those workshops are wonderful.  My husband participated
    in several workshops like the ones you mention.  His father always
    said it wasn't manly to cry and put down if he once showed any
    emotion.  Maybe that's why I feel so strongly about it.  
    
    It would be great if more people, men & women, participated in
    these workshops.
    
    - Beckie    

    I truly believe that the ability to cry is dependant upon whether
    or not you were taught how to cry.  If you never saw your father
    cry, even when you could tell he wanted/needed too, then you will
    probably hold in the tears also.
    
    Now with women, a lot of men have the attitude that we cry too much
    and for inappropriate reasons.  How many times have you heard a
    man reference when a female gets pulled over by the police, all
    she has to do is CRY...  And how many of the men out there believe
    that woman use tears to get their own way?  
    
    These beliefs are what cause me to hold back my tears.  I was brought
    up in a home where there was not a man around and the female was
    the head of the household.  So, kind of taking on the "male" role
    that society has developed.  And, crying to me was not a sign of
    lack of control, but of weakness.  I always felt that if I let anyone
    see me cry, that would be admitting defeat.  I guess it would have
    made me feel like the women who use the tears to their advantage
    and I wouldn't allow myself to fall into that category.
    
    A piece of information that opened my eyes....
    
    I once responed to a man who asked me if I was going to be oaky.....
    
     	Don't worry about me, I am a survivor!
    
    His response....
    
    	Laura, you sure are, but remember that there is more to life
    	than surviving.
        
    
    
    I always thought I was doing so well, and it made me realize that
    I was only taught to survive.  
    
    When one is never taught to cry, they find it difficult to believe
    that it is okay to cry.  And like my situation above, they don't
    get the opportunity to find out that it is okay, and lose out on
    the opportunity of comfort that is available to them.
    
    I don't know, I think it is a sad thing that men are raised this
    way, and I try very hard to teach my two small boys to be loving
    and affectionate and to cry when they need to.
    
                                                           

         Most of my life, I refused to cry.  I was *always* told that
    it wasn't something a man was not supposed to do.  I wouldn't even cry
    in private.  I paid dearly for these misconceptions.  Eventually,
    one has to find some way of coping with the emotions one has kept
    inside for so long.  And sometimes we don't do this in a very con-
    structive manner.  I certainly didn't.  Today, I have no problems
    crying whenever the situation warrants it.  If it is offensive
    to someone else, that is something that they must deal with themselves.
    I am mainly concerned about my well being.  And if I must express
    myself, then, OPEN THE FLOOD-GATES!!!

    I don't deal very well with other people crying, male or
    female, unless it's someone I'm already pretty close to. When
    it's family and we're in more-or-less private, well, it's ok
    to let your hair down with family, to cry, to rage, whatever,
    and I'm able to offer comfort or support then.  But with
    other people I feel embarrassed, like they've just expressed
    an uncomfortably intimate emotion that seems inappropriate
    for our relationship.  It doesn't matter whether the person
    is a man or woman, outside family, I don't handle it gracefully.

    This probably says a lot about why I come across to friends
    and co-workers as calm, cool, and collected when inside I
    sometimes feel like a veritable storm of emotion.  (And this
    is something I've just recently become aware of.)

    Personal anecdote:  I was brooding over dinner last week when
    my husband asked what was bothering me.  "Oh, nothing," I
    sighed, "but did you ever feel like you wish something
    terrible would happen so you could cry about it?"  He replied
    thoughtfully, "I think when a man feels that way he wishes
    something would happen so he'd have an excuse to *break*
    something." 

    Perhaps men are more likely to get "trained" to respond to
    frustrating, frightening, or hurtful situations with anger
    than tears?  I've seen my husband in a towering rage many
    times, but I've only seen him cry once.  Maybe it's easier
    for others to deal with a man's anger than a man's tears?
    (...and easier to deal with a woman's tears than a woman's
    anger? but that's another topic)

    -- Linda (couldn't stay away from the keyboard very long!)

    re .20
    
    Isn't that interesting! Just last week, I was sitting there all
    tensed up inside over some things that were irritating me. My wife
    said "Gee, your awfully quiet tonight. What's wrong?" I said "I
    feel like going out and killing something." Naturally, she was 
    shocked. But I went on to explain that the object didn't necessarily
    have to be alive, it could be a rock or anything that I could vent
    my frustration at. I understand that some Japanese companies provide
    a room where employees can go and vent their frustrations by beating
    on dummies with a stick. It certainly is better than venting those
    frustrations behind the wheel of your car. Of course, this is only
    a way of venting frustrations and doesn't solve the expression of
    happy/sad emotions. Men use other means to express those feelings.
    
    Bob Mc

    A question to .0? What causes or brings on the tears? Man or woman
    crying I have not seen this question in the previous replies. Could
    you give a couple of typical conditions that start the tears.            

    re: .22
    
    Tough question.  Not that I don't know, because I do.  However the
    embarassment level of reveiling something so private to a fourm
    that can be read by co-workers and such is rather high...
    
    It is a lot of factors really.  A lot is love related, personal
    relationships and family problems.  I lost my father in the last
    couple of years, I lost my father-in-law last year.  One particularly
    stressfull night involved a *VERY* tense night, emotionally, for
    *unspecified* reasons.  Then we (my wife and I) were informed of
    her fathers death, her brothers arrest on a cocain charge her other
    brothers arrest for parol violation and her sisters husband losing
    his job (one week after finding out she was pregnant).  We found
    all this out over a course of 2 hours on the same night as the
    'stressful situation'.  WHEW!
    
    I am teribly frustrated over some feelings that I am going through
    that I can't seem to get a handle on and the level of frustration
    results in a lashing out.  Ether physically (eg: punch a tree) or
    emotionally (eg: crying).  The later seems to sooth the best, but
    as some noter commented, my punching a tree is more accepted than
    crying.
    
    Makes sense huh?  "Hey, lookit jim break his fist against the tree!,
    glad he's doing the manly thing like breaking every bone in his
    hand rather than crying..."
    
    As things mature I am sure that I will open up more about what ails
    me.  Beleive me it is not a problem with this forum.  I feel most
    comfortable with all of you.  Maybe I'm not too comfortable with
    myself at this time.
    
    The attached literary work is copied from the poetry notesfile.
     It is beautifull and expresses a some of what is on my mind.  Read
    and enjoy.  Thanx for all the replies, they do help!
    
    jim
    
    
    
    
    
    
The real meaning of Love
    
Oh what a heaven is love; oh what a hell.  To love one who loves you 
exceeds the limits of human joy.  It is a moment of oneness that is 
one of the most exhilarating, most exciting experiences in life.  Love 
doesn't make the world go 'round, love is what makes the ride 
worthwhile.  But to love someone is not just a strong feeling--it is a 
decision, it is a judgment, it is a promise.

For one person to love another is, perhaps, the most difficult of all 
our tasks.  We are never so defenseless against suffering as when we 
love.  For winning love, we run the risk of losing.  Had we never 
lov'd so kindly, had we never lov'd so blindly; never met, or never 
parted; we'd never been broken hearted.

Yes, loving is a painful thrill, but not to love more painful still.  
Love, and the hope of it, are a part of life's heritage.  Love is much 
nicer to me than an automobile accident, a tight girdle, a higher tax 
bracket, or a holding pattern over Philadelphia.  It doesn't matter 
who you love or how you love, but that you love.

Love is a beautiful necessity of our nature.  We attract hearts by the 
qualities we display; we retain them by the qualities we possess.

How do I love thee?  Let me count the ways.  I love thee to the depth 
and breadth and height my soul can reach...

A love like ours can never die.  How bold one gets when one is sure of 
being loved!  First love feels like a dream--tender and timeless--and 
touches all the loves of your life.  The magic of first love is our 
ignorance that it can never end.  Great loves too, must be endured.  
In love, there is always one who kisses and one who offers the cheek.

Love is, of all the passions, the strongest for it attacks the head, 
the heart and senses simultaneously.  When you are in love you are not 
wise; when you are wise you are not in love.  Love is a human emotion 
that wisdom will never conquer.

I can see from your utter misery, from your eagerness to misunderstand 
each other, and from your thoroughly bad temper that this is the real 
thing. To have and to hold from this day forward, for better, for 
worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health, to love and 
to cherish, 'till death do us part.

In your hand you hold my heart and forever it shall be.  At the touch 
of love, everyone becomes a poet.  The happiness of another person is 
essential to your own. The universe is reduced to a single being when 
a love relationship is at its height, there is no room left for any 
interest in the environment.

Love reckons hours for months, days for years and every little absence 
an age.  To be in love is to mistake and ordinary young man for a 
Greek god and an ordinary woman for a goddess.  Love tells us many 
things that are not so.  It is with true love as with ghosts; everyone 
talks of it, but few have ever seen it. True love doesn't consist of 
holding hands--it consists of holding hearts.

The course of true love never did run smooth.  We are not the same 
persons this year as last, nor are those we love.  It is a happy 
chance if we, in changing, continue to love a changed person.  Faults 
grow thick when love grows thin.  Love and eggs are best when they are 
fresh.

It takes more skill and courage to stop love than it does to start it.  
A very small degree of hope is sufficient to cause the birth of love.  
The loss of love is a terrible thing; they lie who say death is worse.  
Nobody loves me, I am going to the garden and eat worms.

It is obviously quite difficult to be no longer loved when you are 
still in love; but it is much more painful to be loved when you no 
longer love.  Nothing grows again more easily than love.  You will 
laugh again, you will love again.  To say that you can only love one 
person all your life is just saying that one candle will continue 
burning as long as you live.

You need somebody to love while your looking for someone to love.  The 
wretched part is, we can't love frivolously if we mean it.  Everything 
in the world can be imitated and forged, everything but love.  If we 
are to make a mature adjustment to life, we must be able to give and 
receive love.  The heart that loves is always young.

We have lived and loved together through many changing years; we've 
shared each others gladness, and wept each others tears.  With all thy 
faults I love thee still.  The greatest happiness in life is the 
conviction that we are loved.  Loved for ourselves, or rather, loved 
in spite of ourselves.

But for you to ask advice on the rules of love is no better than to 
ask advice on the rules of madness.  Love is the way it is. Love is 
an endless mystery, for it had nothing else to explain it.  Love is 
there, waiting.

Moreau 1-oct-1987

	Jim,

	It seems to me in .0 that ther are two questions.

	The one that you state :...Why does it bother you when I cry

	and the second "unstated" one: Why does it bother me when you
                                             see me cry.


	I have read all the responses and would like to add my observations.

	It doesn't bother me when I see you cry (you being generic). I

	accept _anyone's_ tears as what they need to do at that moment. If

	I am not going to be "bothered" when you laugh, then I'm sure not

	going to be bothered when you cry. As you stated, there are time when

	we cry from happiness. There is a book, "Mister God, This is Anna"

	and the character talks about crying when she's happy. She describes

	it as being "all full up". If you stop and think about it, there

	are some people who react with laughter to _very_ horrendous events.

	I would guess that they are "all full up" in the opposite direction!

	I cry at commercials! The standard comment around my house, when

	the kids and I rent a movie is, "Oh, this will make Dad cry." When

	the movie gets to a touching or sad or _loving_ or poinignt (sp?)

	scene, the kids tend to watch me instead of the movie! At least _they_

	have been brought up with a dad that cries, as I was not. It took a

	lot of councelling over a lot of my 41 years to "open up the tap"

	but it has been worth it.

	I have never equated crying with loss of control any more that I

	would equate laughing with the same thing. Emotion is emotion. We

	are not responsible for the way we feel, only for the way we react

	to that feeling.


	For the second part, I would guess that you are "bothered" when other

	people see you cry because you don't want them to be uncomfortable.

	From all the notes in the NOTESFILES that you have responded to,

	I would say that you are a caring, tender, loving person. This old

	world could do with a couple of billion people like you. Then maybe

	we could get on with sharing and caring and forget about all the

	stupid problems that prevent us from comforting one another.

	One other thing... it was touched on in an earlier response... I

	forget which one. Crying is _good_ for you! When you cry, you body

	manufactures chemicals called endorphines (sp?). These chemicals

	prepare the body physically _and_ mentally to cope with the reason

	a person is crying. There are studies that show that men who cry

	are less prone to heart attacks, strokes, etc. Not all of the

	"rules" imposed by society are good :^)

	Sorry for rambling for so long

	tomc

	BTW is it "proper" NOTES etiquette to double space the lines?

    I have deleted note 516.18 at the request of the author (Mike Bursch).
    Mike tells me that he wrote that note in "the heat of the moment" in
    reaction to a recent personal experience, and apologizes for its
    harsh tone and nature of attack.  He said that he would soon enter
    a new note that is less inflammatory.
    
    Because replies .24 and .26 are responses to .18, I have hidden them
    and have notified the authors, who may choose to un-hide them or delete
    them as they wish.
    
    This is a good opportunity to remind people that you should always
    "count to ten" (or maybe one thousand!) before writing a heated
    response.  Instead of instantly typing REPLY, create a separate
    file with the response.  Then put it aside for an hour or a day, and
    look at it again.  Consider whether you might be better off toning
    it down or not writing it at all, or perhaps sending mail rather
    than writing a note.  Stop and consider that the person you are
    attacking has feelings too. 
    
    The moderators try to recognize and weed out personal attacks, but
    we don't always recognize them in all forms, and can't read everything
    right away.  Help prevent problems by "putting brain in gear before
    putting fingers in motion".
    					Steve

    
    Jim,
    
    A late arrival onto the file, but I was touched by your note......
                                                      
    I can only speak from the receiving end. Over the years several
    men have cried with me and I have always felt deeply moved by it.
    It seems like a special gift to me - like he's saying " I trust
    you enough to break a stupid but ingrained convention and show my
    feelings to you in the way I want to - sod convention!".
    I have always respected the person concerned at least as much
    afterwards, if not more so, and it has inevitably deepened friendships.
                                                      
    Because men crying can be so touching and have this potential (at
    least for me) for a sort of special intimacy maybe people are
    afraid/embarassed by that.
                 
    For that reason, crying at work or anywhere with groups of people
    could make them uncomfortable because 1) no observer is free to
    respond to you the way they'd like to because of the others around
    and 2) it's sort of a "group-intimacy" invitation. I'm sure you
    can see the complications in that......crying one-on-one is probably
    better/easier cos there's no mixed messages.
    
    A
    

    I would like to second .28.
    
    About a week ago, I had a man who is simply my friend cry in a
    one-on-one session.  And I agree, we are much closer now - that
    is indeed a special kind of sharing.
    
    Elizabeth

RE: .-2,  et al.  - I would agree.

Being able to cry is seen (unfortunately not by everyone) as a good
thing in itself.  Crying for a particular reason at a particular moment
can be very therapeutic, indeed necessary.  Having the ability to
control the situation is also important.  A lot of people view
themselves as having lost a large measure of personal dignity, 
self-confidence,  etc,  if they think that their episode has been
inappropriate in any way.  We can help others by ensuring that they know
it is "safe" for them to do so,  men or women. Yes, why should we be
bound by convention?  So what,  if others can't cope with you crying or
think it inappropriate - that is their problem, the way that they view
it.  Unfortunately,  they can use such incidents to colour their
perceptions of the individual,  and that has to be coped with.  Not
everyone want's to be thought of and treated as a "weepy",  a "wimp",
etc,  but that is what we are often afraid of. 

But for the cryer,  it is usually one of the best ways to focus on the 
cause of the pain or joy and helps them to make the most of it.

It is interesting to note that,  for example,  when some relationship
guidance counsellors are being selected or trained, how the potential
counsellor views this human aspect is regarded as of import.  If there 
is no indication of ability to cope when needed,  or negative views 
being held,  it is almost taken as a reason for not selecting the 
person for training as a counsellor.  By implication,  a counsellor will 
help a client to cry and to come out from the experience all the better 
for having done so.

There have been some great (and unsung) heroes and heroines who have 
cried,  so we are not alone!

BTW.  As an opposite,  laughing,  the ability to laugh is seen as a good 
thing,  no matter which sex;  but crying?  So why does society pressure 
us - or is it an aspect of "survival"?  The laughers appear to cope and 
carry-on,  but the cryers curl up and give-up?

    Hi
    
    I feel rather stupid at times as i seem to cry at silly little things,
    if i am watching a sad film i cry, if someone upsets me or hurts me i
    cry, but at times i want to cry and i can't either because i don't want
    something to be said or i might have to tell them why...
    Sorry if this is not what you have all been talking about but i needed
    to put my view across.

    Nothing to feel stupid about - most semivoluntary physical reactions
    are like crying, I think.  Laughter can come up at the most inopportune
    moments or inexplicably disappear.  In men at least, the relation
    between love and its physical expression can occasionally be impossible
    to follow.  (Was that vague enough to get past the mods? (: >,) 
    
    Tears at a sentimental movie seem just as valid as tears at real events. 
    In fact, they might be a way of coming to terms with problems that are
    too painful or omnipresent to cry about in the real world. 
    
    Ray

    
    	The first time my boyfriend cried in front of me, I thought
    	he was faking it.  That thought was like a slap in the face
    	to me.  How dare I invalidate somebody else's emotions just
    	because most men don't cry?
    
    	It was a very touching revelation and I feel very fortunate
    	to be with someone unafraid to express mankind's wide range
    	of feelings and emotions.
    
    	Carla
    

    It occurs to me that crying is looked down upon because it represents
    and/or illustrates loss of control.
    
    But - crying is part of feeling - and feelings just cannot be
    controlled.  Like breathing IS, feelings ARE.  Crying sometimes
    expresses those *very* valid feelings.
    
    I was *floored* when I learned that.
    
    Carol

	I get teary-eyed when I see that telephone commercial about
	the father and son that haven't spoken in years.

	The daughter phones Dad at a holiday and says "Just call him
	o.k. ?"

	Finally, you see the father's face as he's about to forgive whatever
	the longstanding feud was.

	Brings the tears on instantly...

One tear jerker is the movie "A Little Romance" with the late Sir Laurence 
Olivier.  Everytime I see that movie, I feel happy and sad at the same time.

However, I draw the line at those New England Telephone commercials.  Especially
the "Prodigal Son" story where "Luke" runs away from home, then crawls back (or
was that "phones back"?) and begs for forgiveness.  Call me insensitive, but
I just can't take those commercial "soaps" seriously.  

    - Larry

    Re - .35
    
    So do I.  I was never like that with my family in real life.  I think I
    cry because I wish that were me.
    
    Carol
    

    I lose it in movies like "Same Time, Next Year".  I can't even hear
    the theme song without getting a little choked up.
    
    And just plain music can get under my skin, too.  Songs like "Abraham,
    Martin and John", or more recent stock, "In the Living Years" (is that
    the title?).
    
    All time killer:  "Where Are You Going?", sung by Danny Kaye but
    popularized by Kodak.  I get all emotional thinking about my daughter
    growing up, getting married and starting her own life - AND I DON'T
    HAVE ANY CHILDREN!
    
    If this rings a bell, you will definitely have a sob or two as you wait
    in line to see Captain Eo at Disney world.  Its a 20 minute version of
    the old Kodak commercials, and it will pull a heartstring, especially
    if you don't have children, but would like to.
    
    BTW on the more intellectual side of "crying", I read an article once
    where a test was conducted to compare tears evoked by emotional
    overflow, and tears evoked in some other manner.  It was found that the
    chemical content of the tears differed.  When you cry emotionally, your
    body disposes of ALL KINDS of things that normally don't readily find
    their way out of your system in other ways.  Findings:  emotional
    crying is very healthy chemically as well as emotionally, and a lack of
    crying may have health consequences.  Interesting, eh?  For the record,
    the movie used by researchers to evoke emotional responses in tear
    donors was "Brian's Song".
    
    Jim
    

    Well, as long as we are dicussing what makes us cry...

    The Martin Luther King jr "I Have a Dream" speech always makes me
    cry. Crying is something that comes all to easily for me though it
    does help clear up emotions that you have trouble dealing with.
    liesl