Conference quark::human_relations-v1

    
    Cherie, I really feel for you.  It's a tough situation you're in.
    While I didn't have to face that with my parents (they celebrate
    their 50th next year), I have recently gone though a rough divorce
    myself, with "nasties" still continuating. This is mainly due to
    our shared physical custody of our sons.  Enough of my situation.
    
    I agree with you that it is a high risk situation that something
    may explode at your reception, at what it is not unreasonable for
    you to expect to be a happy celebration of your marriage.
    
    The compromise you proposed is what I feel to be not only a reasonable
    one, but very giving on your part, especially in light of your own
    feelings at the way your father deserted you and the rest of your
    family for five years.  The fact that your father "wants it all"
    or nothing, is not reasonable, in my opinion, especially where you
    and your fiance are footing the entire bill and he is contributing
    nothing to it.  He has chosen to relenquish any "rights" he might
    have in your wedding.  You and your fiance have the final decision
    in your hands.
    
    My feeling is that it would be too risky for you to invite him to
    your reception, in terms of your mothers' and your "old feelings"
    surfacing, as well as those of your other siblings.  This is even
    more likely since he seems to be insisting on bringing his new
    girlfriend.
    
    My advice is to invite him to the church and that's all.
    
    Please feel free to contact me by ENET if you'd like to discuss
    this more in a more private way.
    
    					Joe
    
    
    
    

       
       
       Sorry, but your Dad is being completely unreasonable. You are
       being VERY reasonable.. Personally, I'd, at this point, ask
       him not to attend.  I'd be too worried thru-out the wedding
       and reception about "Oh God, when's it gonna blow??" that
       it'd be "memorable" in just that way..  From what you've written,
       it sounds like Dad wants to "make an appearence" rather than
       "go to his daughters wedding"... Sorry, weddings aren't the
       place...
       
       	You don't deserve the hassle. Especially on YOUR day. (Geez,
       you'd think people could be civil for just one bloody day..
       Especially for their family..)

       Sorry I don't have a better suggestion.. I don't envy your
       situation.. I do hope that everything turns out ok.
       
       					mike

    Invite your mother and father and book the same room at a motel
    for them and don't tell them!
    
    Or go away and get married in a different country.

    
    	I too detect the wrong intent on your father's part, simply
    by his having to resort to a context of "an ultimatum"; Let her
    in - or else!
    
    	I'd formally ask him not to show his face, and tell him why.
    That he "threatened" to show anyway just solidifies what his real
    intent is, like the earlier reply said, to just make a showing and
    maybe (likely?) "rub elbows" a bit.
    
    	Joe Jas
    

    Tell him you're sorry he won't be there and you'll miss him.
    
    It's YOUR day and Lord knows there's enough nerves and tensions
    getting ready for a wedding without you having to think about who's
    going to explode when. If differences can't be put aside for one
    day (or even an hour) then the dissenting party should stay away.
    Of all days, it should be your wishes and happiness that count.
    
    Best wishes to you and your husband-to-be.
     

If your mother can manage not to rise to the bait, you could invite your father,
the worst he could do is make a fool of himself.  Appraise a couple of ushers
of the the situation beforehand.  If he's really obnoxious have the ushers
throw him out.

I sympathize with the father.  When you have to make a break, it is a whole lot
easier to make a *clean* break, and have nothing to do with your family for a
while.  It sounds like he sucumbed to the temptation to do just that. 

Jim.

    Well, I had the opposite problem.  My parents had a very bitter
    divorce.  Several years later my dad remarried.  My mother had a
    deep resentment of my father and my step-mother.  So much so that
    she told me that she didn't want him at our wedding.  After much
    arguing she agreed to allow him, but not his wife.
    
    I stood my ground and told her that it is *my* wedding and I invited
    them both.  If she didn't like it and couldn't act like an adult
    about it then she could stay home.  I emphisized that not only was
    my dad and his wife going to be there, but that my mother HAD to
    be civil to them.  That or I'd have her leave.  It was tough, but
    I guess I recalled all those time my mother had told me to "ACT
    YOUR AGE!", that it finnaly sunk in...
    
    It is *your* wedding, invite the people you want to attend.  If
    you decide to invite your father (with or without his SO), make
    sure he understands that he has to act like a big boy, and that
    you are the judge of what a big boy is...
    
    One other bitter pill.  Imagine being invited to what may be the most
    important thing in the world to you, and told that your new spouse
    was not welcome.
    
    jim
    

    
    
    Re: .6
    
    Mom is pretty cool about the whole deal, but if you knew my father
    you'd know that he won't just go there and be closed-mouthed.  I
    think he'd be ok at the ceremony, after all how much hassle could
    he cause?  But the reception is a different story.
    
    I'm glad others think that my compromise is reasonable, I thought
    it was, but dear old Dad doesn't.  Guess there is just no pleasing
    some people.
    
    Thanks for all your good advice (by the way, I like that idea of
    putting Mom and Dad up in the same hotel room....not very realistic,
    but that would be funny!).  This notesfile is a great find.  It's
    nice to get warmth and support from people you don't even know!
    
    Looking forward to reading more ideas, advice, or "war" stories...
    
    Warm regards,
    Cherie
    

    
    re:.7
    
    
    
    Thanks for sharing your experience with me.  How did the wedding
    and reception turn out with everyone in attendance?  Did your mother
    truly enjoy herself?  Were you on edge at all, waiting for when
    things would "blow up"?  If things had gotten out of hand, how would
    you have handled asking your mother to leave?  I can imagine asking
    a family member to leave would cause more problems than the actual
    original confrontation....
    
    The thing about my situation is that Dad's girlfriend truly doesn't
    care if she goes to the wedding.  She doesn't know me or my fiance 
    and has told both me and my Dad that she doesn't care if she goes.
     I really feel dad is just "flexing his muscles" by giving me this
    ultimatum.  I am not one to cause problems, or go looking for problems.
     I can't stand confrontations and go out of my way to get along
    with everyone.  But, like everyone, I do have my limits and I don't
    think it's too much to ask that my wedding day goes off "without
    a hitch".  This is one day I don't think it's too much to ask of
    people to indulge MY feelings.  And I'd like everyone who is at
    the wedding to really have fun...
    
    What a hassle........eloping is sounding better and better....!
    
    Cherie
    

        From what I've heard so far, it doesn't seem to me that your
        father's girl friend is the problem, but that your *father's*
        behavior at the reception is likely to be the problem. Given
        that and the fact that his girlfriend is sufficiently important
        for him to have tossed away the first marriage for, I would
        invite both of them. If your mother is "pretty cool", then she
        can probably live with the girlfriend showing up.
        
        If it were me, I'd invite everybody, but I'd lay down the law to
        them using the basic "act your age" approach that was used by
        another noter in this discussion. I'd lay it down real firmly,
        and make it clear that I was willing to make it stick.
        
        The above is what I would do, and additionally what I'm
        comfortable recommending to others. Precisely how to "make it
        stick" is something where I'm not as comfortable recommending my
        own approach to others. Personally, I'm a person who is fairly
        comfortable with the use of serious formal authority. I wouldn't
        use the ushers to eject anyone who misbehaved. Physical threat
        not backed by formal authority is too likely to lead to violence
        in my mind. I'd use police. I'd either be prepared to call in
        the police to eject anyone who was out of line, or more likely
        hire and off-duty cop as security for the reception--plain
        clothes if he'd do it.
        
        A policeman can offer the person the choice of leaving quietly
        or causing trouble and being arrested, and completely rule out
        the question of not leaving or staying for an extended scene.
        Anyone else leaves open the possibility of overpowering them and
        staying. Once you've decided to eject someone you want them to
        understand that staying is out of the question and the only
        issue is where they leave for.
        
        Now, a lot of people wouldn't be comfortable with my solution. I
        can understand that. It is the approach that I would take if I
        thought someone was likely to cause trouble and not be willing
        to leave my wedding reception merely on my request.
        
        JimB.

        I wrote .10 before reading .9. After it, I will at least
        tentatively recommend the use of a pair of plain clothes
        off-duty cops as security for the reception. It allows you to
        avoid the confrontation. If you aren't comfortable with
        confrontations--let someone else do that. You have more
        important things to be doing. 
        
        It sounds like there's no way to avoid a confrontation occuring
        at your wedding or reception. All you can do is pick the place,
        the participants and the outcome. Let it be at the reception,
        not the wedding, let it be between your father and someone who
        is not you or your groom, and let the outcome be that he leaves,
        with the minimum amount of fuss possible.
        
        If you are not someone who wields authority or power well, it
        seems quite reasonable to hire someone else to do it for you.
        
        JimB.

    Why is it important that your father's woman friend NOT be there?
    
    Is she saying it is not improtant to her to keep peace?
    
    You said your mother would be cool.  It sure seems to me that the
    only person that might not be cool is your father.  The woman friend
    seems cool.  
    
    You may be running more of a risk of an upset by not allowing her
    to be there.  Dad would be more upset.
    
    Are some of your feeling of resentment about the divorce coming
    through?
    
    Book the same hotel room!!!  Boy that would start world war III
    and it sure isn't a funny joke.
    
    Parents should think of the children and not their hurts but I know
    that is not always easy for some people.  Remember, this will come
    up again as other big events occur with you or with your siblings.
    
    Births, deaths, graduations and weddings.  They will have to get
    use to each other sometime, even the woman in your fathers life.
    
    It is not impossible.  I see my ex husband and his wife often at
    events that involve our children.  Its all part of loving our children.
    
    Sue

    
    
    answer to questions...
    
    it is important to me that she not be there for a couple of reasons
    - first of all I do not like her.  Second of all, she is not cool,
    if she were reasonable she would just not go.  But Dad isn't content
    with that, and yes it is he who is giving me this ultimatum, but
    she could very easily just let it slide and forget the whole wedding.
     She will support HIS decision, which I guess makes sense seeing
    as it is he that she loves and all, but my fiance and I are
    the ones who are footing the bill, and making all the plans and
    I really think that our wishes should be honored, just on this one
    day.  I don't want her there because she's caused alot of pain in
    the family, not just the divorce itself, but she's accused me and
    my family of things that were very unfair and plain old cruel, and
    very uncalled for.  That hurt and resentment sure is still there.  
    I've thought alot about what could possibly happen and I want to
    avoid any source of any confrontations, any scenes, or general bad
    feelings.  I guess the obvious thing to do would to not invite Dad,
    but I thought I had come up with a good compromise by inviting them
    to the wedding but not the reception.
    
    I guess there isn't one good, solid answer for this problem.  I
    just wish Dad would meet me half-way.
    
    Cherie
    

    Boy, does this all sound familiar!  I sympathize with .7.  My husband's
    parents were divorced many years ago, and his father has since
    remarried and has a daughter, who was about 6 at the time of our
    wedding (more than 6 years ago).  His mother has never remarried,
    and is still very bitter about the divorce, as is her mother (only
    living grandparent; my husband is very fond of this old lady) -
    she cuts her ex-son-in-law's head out of family photographs people
    send her if she spots him in the picture, even when it ruins the
    pictures!
    
    Now, when we got married, there was no question about inviting Paul's
    step-mother (unfortuneately!  She is a very nice person.); it would
    have caused WW III, and, most importantly to Paul, caused his
    grandmother (let alone the rest of his mother's side of the family)
    to boycott the wedding.  So, she wasn't coming (she's a cool lady,
    also).  The problem in this case was that his father wanted Paul's
    little half-sister to attend the wedding (not the reception, just
    the ceremony).  She was a cute little kid at the time, and Paul
    is fond of her (as well as his two full sisters); she was born years
    after the divorce, anyhow.  When his mother discovered that her
    ex- was planning on bringing this child, she hit the roof!  What
    we ended up doing was telling her that the half-sister would NOT
    be there (even though we knew that she almost certainly WOULD be,
    since negotiations along that line had failed).  The grandmother
    does not know that the half-sister exists (well, *I* wasn't going
    to be the one to tell here....neither has anyone else, to this day).
    We talked about telling all the guests with children in that age
    bracket to bring them, but decided that was a bad plan (reception
    was to feature folk dancing; non-dance-savvy children would get
    trampled!).
    
    What ended up happening was that Paul's mother and sisters were
    much later than they were supposed to be to the synagogogue for
    the wedding, showing up only about 20 minutes ahead of the ceremony
    (we were going to do the photographs first) because one sister,
    predictably, had mislaid the belt to her dress.  So, his mother
    did not see her ex- (and his daughter) until she and the grandmother
    were about to march Paul into the sanctuary, following the people
    carrying the chuppah.  She looked in through the doorway, and
    immediately spotted her ex-, with a little girl sitting beside him,
    and growled to Paul "He brought THE KID".  Paul gives me and his
    mother one of those "Oh, no, don't back out NOW" looks.  Luckily,
    his mother set her jaw and marched in with Paul and her mother (as
    Paul had requested - the grandmother being everyone's favorite person
    - the older of his two kid sisters, who got married a few months
    before we did, also marched in with her mother and grandmother).
    I don't think that the grandmother noticed the ex- at all until
    the reception, and the little half-sister was whisked away by her
    mother (poor Joanne!  Paul's stepmother really got the short end
    of this affair) right after the ceremony, so there was no confrontation
    between his parents at the reception - in fact, they were pretty civil
    to each other.  We didn't have a receiving line (you can get away
    without one via a technicality at a Jewish wedding, you see!), and
    we had taken the precaution of seating the warring sides of Paul's
    family at diagonally opposite tables where they wouldn't see too
    much of each other.     
    
    Sigh.  Everything managed to hold together at our wedding.  Still,
    you'd think people could put aside their differences for a few hours!
    Good luck in your new life together!  If anyone makes a fool of
    him/herself at your reception, it is no reflection on you; it might
    even make for a funny story to tell on your 10th anniversary!
                              

    Here is my 2 cents:
    
    Comments on divorce:
                                               
    It takes two people to get married and two people to get a divorce.
    There are two sides to this story and you have only presented one,
    the abandoned family.  Everyone gets hurt in a divorce.
    
    Maybe its time to begin making ammends.                      
                                               
                                                                      
    Comments on weddings:                                             
                                                                      
    This is your party and a chance for your family and friends to rejoice
    in your good fortune.  This is one of those times everyone wants
    to feel good for you and for themselves.  This is the time to let
    them know you accept them for what they are and to request they come
    and celebrate with you an important day in your life.  By limiting the  
    attendance of your parents or their significant other(s), you will create 
    a problem which will not be easily forgiven.  Rather treating them
    like children and telling them what they can and cannot do.  Tell
    them in a positive way you want to make this a happy day you will
    cherish.  I think you will find if you open your heart your parents
    will respond positively.               
                                           
    "The Eternal Optomist"                                                        
                                               
                                           
    

    
    I agree this is a touchy situation.  Having been their myself. Let
    me explain a little of what happend and how I handled it.
    
    First of all my parents were divorced in Feb. 1982, and I was married
    in May of 1982.  Us kids (5 in all, I being the oldest) were told
    of the divorce 3 days before it went to court.  Yes, dad had still
    been living at home, we knew there was tension, but never thought
    a divorce.  For the same reasons as your dad, mine left for another
    woman (next door) mid life crissis etc.  Well after the initial
    shock of it all happening we HAD to get together, I only had 3 months!
    I did change the invitations to not read Mr & Mrs  and that
    was ALL I changed.  Yes, he was (and still is) my father and I still
    wanted him to give me away.  But I made things clear, you are still
    invited, I still want you to give me away, however, there will be
    no girlfriend.  This is my day and I don't want anyone or anything
    to spoil it. PERIOD!  My mother and father both agreed and would
    do their best.
    
    Well wedding day came, things were going rather smoothly UNTIL,
    the band asked the bride and groom to dance, then asking the parents
    of the bride to come to the floor.  I almost died, it was the one
    thing I didn't want the band to do and forgot to tell them, well
    mom and dad kind of gave each other "that look" went to the floor
    and proceeded to dance.  We have a picture the photographer took
    of the two dancing and believe me their is tension on their faces.
    
    After the day was done, I promply gave each a kiss and thanked them
    for the best day anyone could of asked for under the circumstances.
    
    You just have to set the rules, either he grants your wish or tell
    him to forget it!
    
    Best of luck.
    
    Karen
    
    

    Take a flight to Tahiti.  Get married there.  You will never forget
    it and it will mean that you are your partner have nothing but
    wonderful memories of committing yourselves to eachother.  The
    relationship is more important than the marriage.  Leave the
    family and friends to give you congratulations on returning, and
    forget the drunken scenes which might have occurred.  It  will
    be easier on you and for them.
    
    RE:.8  Not so unrealistic.  It happened once to a couple who split
    and still had an attraction for eachother.  Their son booked a room
    in a posh hotel and told the reception to give a key to both and
    not tell the other was registered.  They both had a great time...
    And the son got a new car! 

    re: .9 (completion of .7)
    
    The wedding went fine and so did the reception.  In fact my mother
    and step-mother seemed to really hit it off, joking and talking
    and all.  (though my mother claims to not remember this...)
    
    That was many years ago, but most attendies still refer to it as
    the best wedding that they have ever been to!  (Everybody had to
    travel out of state to attend, so it was like a group vacation)
    
    And I was prepared to take both parents to a private area (if there
    was trouble) and confront them with their behavior.  If I wasn't
    satisfied, *I* would judge who was the offending party and request
    that they leave, making sure that they were aware that I could enforce
    that.
    
    Not sure if I could have done it, but boy I sure *looked* like I
    was ready -- and they didn't choose to test it...
    
    jim
    

    Cherie,
      Your fathers woman is just as much a part of him as your mother 
    once was.  By snubbing her you are snubbing him as well.  If you 
    are ever to have any relations with your father in the future you 
    will HAVE to learn to accept his woman as well.  
      BTW, Did you grow up and go to school in Leominster?  If so, 
    congratulations and good luck from an old classmate.
    
    Dave

    
    
    re: .20
    
    I answered this reply off-line, but so Dave's question is answered
    on-line, yes, I did go to school in Leominster!
    
    Cherie
    

    For yet another's "two cents worth............
    
    I'll approach this from a few stand points.
    
    First, I too got married very recently after my folks divorced,
    "new" woman was neighbor and 'their' best friend, and things were
    quite a bit less than friendly. At first I didn't think "Jewel"
    (Dad's later to be wife) should be invited to spare Mom's feelings....
    BUT..............
    .How could I "RESTRICT" my father from bringing a certain person
    when other invitees were told they could bring a guest?
    ."Jewel" was an important person to Dad.
    
    End result...................Everyone had a good time, behaved
    themselves,etc.
    
    Now, for another approach.............
    
    I'm a professional D.J., doing about 35-40 weddings a year. I see
    situations like yours (in varying forms) about once a month.
    
    Others have handled it in all the ways you've suggested with every
    concievable end result, from nothing to ARREST (of the father, and 
    he went through a plate glass door after being thrown by the Mom's 
    NEW boyfriend!).
    
    When planning receptions with Bride/Grooms in these 'types' of
    situations there is almost always conjecture as to "what if, etc."
    
    My conclusion is that there is NO way to predict how things will
    go.  HOWEVER!!!!!! 9 out of 10 times (probably more like 1 out 50)
    go very smoothly, everyone has a good time, and all the woory was
    for nothing.
    
    Enjoy yourselves, much love, etc.
    
    BJ
    
    p.s. I was recently re-married. Cindy and I took our closest friends
    (about 9 couples) to a great restaurant (private room) and had one
    hell of a time. There were no obligatory attendees, not even family!
    Music was easy (no hully gullies for obnoxious Aunts etc.). We "got"
    around" all the problems of, "but you MUST invite................."
    by not telling anyone what we were doing. In fact we called her
    parents the next day from our "honeymoon" hotel. 
    This was definitely better than my first wedding which amounted
    to buying an over priced dinner for people I would not associate
    with except for the fact that they were relatives or otherwise obligatory.
    
    Happy trails!

    One of the problems with weddings is that there are lots of bits of
    protocol that you're supposed to follow.

    One of the rules is that you can't invite only one half of an
    established couple. In the old days, this meant that you have to invite
    married or engaged couples. Today, this gets fuzzier. You still have to
    invite married and engaged couples, but what do you about live-ins,
    long-term SOs, etc.?

    There's no good rule for it, but a guideline is this: any time you
    invite only half a couple, you are snubbing the uninvited partner in
    about the most dramatic way possible. You are saying, in effect, that
    the uninvited person is not really seriously involved with the invited
    person. You are saying that in your mind, that couple is not
    "established."

    However you feel about your father and his girlfriend, no matter how
    awful either one of them have been, you must realize that in inviting
    only him you are insulting her. Since she doesn't know you, the insult
    just flows off her back. She probably never expected to be invited.

    However, you are also insulting him and probably insulting him worse
    than her. You are saying that even if he has been with her for five
    years, even though he went through a divorce, you do not consider his
    relationship with her to be serious. If this were international
    diplomacy, you'd be saying that you don't recognize the government of
    your father's country.

    Given the situation as you describe it, there really isn't a better way
    for you to slap his face than that -- it's the worst insult you can
    give him. If you're after a slap, then fine. This is the best way to do
    it, and manners-wise you're 100% in the right. You have put him in a
    situation where his only options are to swallow his pride and let his
    daughter publicly deride him, politely decline the invitation, or act
    like a boor. Sounds like he's chosen the latter. Congratulations. You
    get an A for content and an A for style. He's brought it all on himself
    -- if he'd married his girlfriend (or even proposed), you'd *have* to
    invite her. As it stands, you've managed to retaliate for five years of
    living on a roller coaster, and by all standards of morals, ethics,
    manners and etiquette, you're in the clear; your hands are clean.

    However, if you *really* want him to give you away, then you might
    consider being a bit more conciliatory. He's being rude, but you threw
    the first punch.


    I'd recommend getting a copy of Miss Manners's "Guide to Excruciatingly
    Correct Behavior" as she gives some ways to deal with problems exactly
    like this.

	Jon

    
    
    Re:  .23
    
    Whew...that was quite a reply. 
    
    All I am trying to do has have a wedding and reception that is free
    of hassle, confrontations and the like.  I am not trying to publicly
    deride my father, or humiliate him, or belittle his girlfriend.
     I am asking only that my wishes be respected for one day, and not
    even the entire day at that.  Whatever they want to do with their
    lives is fine, however, I think that I do have a right to want my
    wedding a certain way.  I feel I *have* been flexible with my father.
    I do not think I have thrown the "first punch".  That punch was
    delivered by him over five years ago.  My wishes for my wedding
    aren't to "get back at him" or whatever, like I said before,
    I just don't want the hassle or the worry of when things are gonna
    blow.  Maybe they will, maybe they won't,but I don't want to have
    to be on edge the entire day.  It's that simple.  I have no ulterior
    motives.....I'm not trying to make my father's life miserable.....I
    have no plans to "slap him in the face".  This is a very tough
    situation for me and I hoped, when I wrote the base note, that I
    would get some constructive feedback.  I also hoped that replyers
    would take this situation seriously and not be flip, as I feel the
    last reply has been.  
    
    This situation is not easy for me.  I haven't included every detail
    of the past five years in the base note because it just gets too
    personal, so I guess I can't expect everyone to be supportive or
    give me constructive advice if they don't know the whole story.
    
    "Mr. Tamzen", if you would like to continue a discussion off-line,
    I welcome mail - LAGUNA::RACINE_CH
    
    CHERIE
    

    Cherie, I don't think .23 was meant to be flip.  Taking a look at
    it from your dad's point of view, I'd think you were slapping me
    in the face, too.  I don't know you, your dad, or anyone else in
    the situation - most of us here don't.  So all I can do is imagine
    how he might feel.  Looking at it from a Miss Manners point of view,
    I think Jon has hit the nail on the head.  Whether you mean it to
    be a slap or not, it is.
    
    --Louise

    
    
    Louise,
    
    Thanks for your input.
    
    I don't want to start a huge debate here or step on any toes or
    say "the wrong thing"....but, what about how "I" feel?   Yes, the
    situation may hurt Dad, and I'm not saying that's good or bad or
    whatever, but what about MY WEDDING?  It may be selfish for me to
    be thinking of only myself at this point, but how do you think *I*
    will feel if I am not one of the lucky ones, everyone shows up,
    and the wedding does NOT go off without a hitch?
    
    I certainly do not want this to get blown out of proportion.  I
    try to stay reasonable and open-minded as I read the replies.  But
    since I'm in situation and it's my wedding that we're talking about,
    it's very tough to stay objective and open-minded.  I
    have tried putting myself in my fathers shoes.  This situation
    absolutely does not make me happy.  I have to try to come up with
    something that is acceptable for everyone, but there seems to be
    nothing that does that.  Either I'm the "bad" guy and I don't invite
    Dad's girlfriend, or I put aside my hostilities and reservations
    for the day and I'm on edge all day.  Doesn't sound like alot of
    fun to me.  I'll have enough to do just coping with
    the normal and expected wedding jitters.
    
    I do realize that some of the people reading this note may be in
    my fathers shoes, or his girlfriends, or can easily imagine being
    the "scorned" party.  Or they've gone through a divorce and it's
    been amicable so they don't see what the big deal is.  Maybe if
    I read this note without being in the situation and without knowing
    what has happened in the past, I'd form some of the same opinions
    that are shown in these replies.  However, I have looked forward to 
    my wedding day since I was very young, as have most people.  I want it 
    to be a happy day...what is wrong with that?  Is that really too much
    to expect?  Will I really be a bigger, better person if I just say
    "scr** it" and invite his girlfriend and there ends up being this
    huge confrontation?  Maybe I'm worrying about something that won't
    happen, but with all the tension and hurt feelings that are around
    at this point, I'd say the chances of a confrontation are pretty
    high. 
    
    Most people don't have things like this to worry about when planning
    their wedding.  When my sister got married, all the planning was
    very easy and all they worried about was whether or not it would
    snow (they got married in Feb a few years ago back east).  I'm not
    the type that goes looking for something to worry about. This is
    a very real problem for me.  I'm also not trying to blatantly do
    things to hurt my father.  I am trying to make my wedding day a
    happy and memorable one.  I know this situation doesn't make my
    father happy, but for a minute put yourself in MY shoes.  My decisions
    aren't based on what I can do that would hurt my father the most.
    Hurting my father does not give me the "warm and fuzzies"...but
    he's not the only one who has been hurt.  I've been living with
    it for over five years, as has my family.  To ask him to compromise
    with me for one day, just a few hours, is not too much to ask, as
    far as I'm concerned.  I have friends who ask me why I even want
    him there, considering the past few years.  He tells  me that my
    wedding day is very important to him, I am his oldest daughter and
    he'd like to see me get married and participate in the wedding.
    I would like that....but I honestly don't know what to do.
    
    Cherie
    

    Cherie,

    I'm not being in the least bit flippant. I have no doubt that your
    father has been dreadful to you and your mother. I really do think
    you're handling it well.

    Even -- or rather especially -- if you don't want to insult your father
    you have to realize that there is no way for him to see not inviting
    his girlfriend as anything but an insult. I explained in .23 why from
    etiquette standpoint it's an insult. If you don't mean to insult him,
    then you really must understand that from an external viewpoint it
    looks like one of the most suavely executed digs of the year. Even if
    your father is a perfect gentleman, his girlfriend will be noticeable
    by her absence. People will notice. From your father's rather biased
    viewpoint, it has got to hurt! No matter how much he may deserve the
    hurt, it's going to hurt. 

    Also, by not inviting her, you throw the balance of sympathy toward
    your father and give him an opportunity to retreat to the moral high
    ground. If you have him there without her and he's civil, then he
    scores lots of _on_ (a Japanese term meaning "face" or honor points) at
    your expense. People will say something like, "Oh, isn't Richard being
    a sweetheart, especially considering that Cherie specifically dis-invited
    his Sylvia, not that I blame her." Uh huh, not that they blame you.

    Now if you invite her, you make them beholden to you. All you have to
    do is stand around and be noble. You've made a great sacrifice for
    them. If they're rude, ignore it. There will be plenty of people there
    who will love nothing more than to run interference for you. Ask a
    friend with diplomatic skills to do precisely that. 

    I recommend getting a copy of Miss Manners. She has guidelines in her
    book for how to deal with stepmothers younger than you and other
    tension-producing guests. Have your friend read it, too.

    There's an old Chinese proverb that says if you want to stop fighting,
    you have to stop fighting. You are going to have to decide what you
    want. If you want your father to do you kindness like give you away at
    your wedding, you should consider doing him a kindness like inviting
    someone you can't stand to your wedding. If having your father give you
    away isn't worth it, then it isn't worth it. 

    I understand your desires for your wedding. I got married three weeks
    ago (hence the "Mr. Tamzen" personal name). But there is no way to get
    around inviting people to your wedding that you'd rather not come. The
    closer they are related to you, the more frustrating it is to have to
    invite them, but the more important it is to have to do so. The reason
    is that it is very important on your day to set things up so you can
    look as noble as possible. The alternative is melodrama. At my wedding,
    I invited people that I really didn't want there. If I hadn't, I would
    have been piling snubs on top of snubs. Most of the ones I didn't want
    there didn't come. The other ones knew enough to be civil.

    If you think that the suggestion to call a truce and invite your
    father's girlfriend is flippant, absurd, or unworkable, and you still
    want your father to come to the wedding, you'd better do as other
    people suggested, and hire some cops. You're setting up a situation as
    potentially explosive as an IRA funeral. If you want to stop fighting,
    you have to stop fighting. It is my experience that if you treat people
    like adults, they act like adults. If they don't, it's your wedding,
    and you can lean on your friends. They'll protect you. Just sigh loudly
    and stare at the ceiling.

    Your father is an adult. He may have lots of things wrong with him, but
    he probably knows enough to be pleasant at his daughter's wedding. Is
    there anything wrong with giving him the opportunity to rebuild the
    ties between the two of you? You said that he cut off contact with you
    before, and I get the impression that you'd rather remain in contact
    with him, or you'd simply not invite him. If you do him a favor, and
    follow it up with a little bit of trust, he might repay you many times
    over. If you treat him like an emotional terrorist, he's liable to act
    like one. 

    	Jon

I just have a couple of things...

I agree with Jon's viewpoint, and with your viewpoint.  They are from two
different perspectives, and the same action will have different meaning to
different people in different places in the situation.  You just want to have a
nice wedding.  Your Father just wants to bring his SO.

For me, at least, inviting your father *and* *not* being on edge would be an
option.  I hope that you can invite your father, and realize that you did the
right thing, and let go of the outcome.  If your father makes a foll of himself,
that's *his* problem, not yours. 

Second, it might be helpfull to disassociate 'five years of trouble' with your
father from the present situation.  Realize that that five years of trouble was
trouble for him also.  Now, you could continue to blame each other for those
problems, or you could try to leave those problems behind and realize that
neither of you meant to hurt each other (unless you feel it was otherwise), and
get on with life.  This is part of Jon's 'if you want to stop fighting, you have
to stop fighting'.

It is your wedding; it's your choice to invite them.  How they behave is their
choice. 

Jim.

    
    
    Re: last two....
    
    Thanks for the insight.  And Jon, thanks for explaining your previous
    reply in a little more depth.
    
    I do agree that if you treat a person like an adult, they will more
    than likely act like one.  Unfortunately, I cannot control other
    people's actions...I wouldn't want to anyway!  My "problem" as such
    is not that I will be making any scenes with my father or his friend.
     There are about a dozen other people, at least, who have been directly
    affected by all this and it is the interaction between them that
    I am wary of.  Now, I don't think that they'd all be thinking to
    themselves "Gee, let's all go to Cherie & Pete's wedding and cause
    a ruckus....this is a perfect time to settle things with her
    dad......",but the fact remains that dad has been estranged from
    the family for so long and so many things were left unresolves,
    and this would probably be the first time for many of my relatives
    to come face to face with him.  Now, I could line everyone up and
    make them promise to "be good", but once they have a couple glasses
    of bubbly, or someone  gives someone else "a look" or whatever,
    then the fun begins.  I don't want to rent cops as a "solution"
    to this.  I am trying to AVOID that.  I'd like a nice, relaxed
    atmosphere at the ceremony and reception.  I'm trying to stress
    the point that there will be alot ofSTRESS at the wedding with dad's
    s.o. there.....she's had alot to say to the people in my family
    and even if everyone was stoic and calm and kept a stiff upperlip,
    I still think the tension would be quite noticeable.
    
    At any rate....your replies are definitely food for thought and
    I appreciate the feedback.
    
    Regards,
    Cherie
    

        As the person who suggested the hiring of plain-clothes off-duty
        cops, which I readily admit is a strong tactic, I might as well
        at least explain a little. In essence, I believe in everything
        Jon has had to say in this note, both in terms of the etiquette
        of the situation and how it will look to your father, and with
        what he's said about stopping fighting. As anyone who knows both
        Jon and me either personally or through notes can tell you, he
        and I have rather different styles. As a result of this our
        interpretations and implementations differ.
        
        Jon is absolutely correct that the only way to stop fighting is
        to stop fighting. The only way to avoid conflict is to be at
        peace, peace with yourself and with those around you. To do this
        you need to do two things. 
        
        The first is understand the dynamics around you. Conflict can
        only be avoided if you understand its causes, and you avoid
        those things that create tension and conflict. This is where
        Jon's comments on etiquette and his recommendation that you read
        Miss Manners comes in. Judith Martin (who writes as Miss
        Manners) understands a lot about how people interpret things,
        and a lot about conflict resolution. Her books can offer you a
        lot of insight into both how to avoid social conflict and how to
        win it if you choose not to avoid it. Manners are not just
        meaningless forms, they are controlled ways of interacting with
        people, and of controlling the outcomes of interactions. Miss M.
        not only explains etiquette, but gives many insights into the
        reasons behind manners and the ways in which they may be used.
        
        The second aspect you need to be at peace is the decision to not
        conflict and the determination to act upon that decision. You
        must actively put away conflict. This requires a good deal of
        both control and power. You need control because the human form
        is subject to extremes of passions, and many of these passions
        if heeded can lead to conflict. Not listening to our passions,
        putting away the past, takes a great deal of control.
        Fortunately, the benfits of this control can be quite marked,
        and once you begin to exercise it there is a lot of positive
        feedback to help you maintain it. Gaining control is a good deal
        harder than maintaining it.
        
        Just as control is needed to resist the inner pressures that can
        lead us into conflict, so is power needed to resist the external
        forces that would force conflict. It may seem odd that one of
        the requirements of avoiding conflict is power. In our culture
        we often associate power with aggression, and thus it is
        tempting to feel that in order to avoid conflict one must
        renounce power. This is a mistake. While it is true that without
        control no amount of power can assure you peace, power is still
        a necessary ingredient for peace. 
        
        To illustrate this one need only think of some of the great
        practitioners of peace. Two that come quickly to mind are Ghandi
        and Martin Luthor King.Both were men of tremendous power, but
        power controlled and directed to peace. Other illustration can
        be found in the animal kingdom. It is the animals of great
        power--the elephants, gorillas and lions who are the most
        peaceful.
        
        The inclussion of the lion along with the elephant above gets us
        back to the issue of the difference in style. There are many
        ways of being at peace, many styles of conflict avoidance, many
        different types of tactics for acheiving the goal of minimal
        conflict. Control and power and the decision to avoid conflict
        can be used in many different ways. The one you choose, the best
        one for you, should be based upon your personality and your
        capabilities, and whether conflict avoidance is a goal in and of
        itself or merely a tool for attaining some other goal.
        
        As a boy I had a terrible time with bullies--I was severely
        beaten up a number of times. As a result, one of my major
        motivations is the avoidance of being victimized. I have an
        extreme aversion to losing. One of the major ways that I avoid
        losing is by avoiding competetion and conflict. The less you
        conflict and compete, the fewer opportunities you have to lose.
        On the other hand, I also avoid losing by winning. I can be a
        very forceful person at times. The last major method by which I
        avoid losing is by writing my own rules. If I decide what the
        definition of "win" and "lose" are, I can stack the deck in my
        favor.
        
        My own style, then, for handling conflict is to do everything I
        can to avoid it, and to make sure that if it does arise I have
        it within my power to win. I strive to set things up so that the
        people with whom I am potentially in conflict with have two
        choices of outcome either we can both win, or I win and they
        lose. Any outcome whereby I lose is ruled out. As I've said
        before, this is my style and not everyone will be comfortable
        with it.
        
        For all the reasons that Jon has stated, and which Miss Manners
        can lay out for you as well, I can't see how you can possibly
        win if you refuse to let your father's girlfriend come. She
        means too much to him--she must from the decisions he's made in
        the past. If she weren't important or didn't represent something
        important, he wouldn't have given up his marriage and family.
        
        If you refuse to allow her, he has a number of choices that
        involve you losing. He can visibly quietly suffer under your
        "abuse". He can get back by lashing out at you at the reception.
        He can just bring her anyhow, and show you up. This, of course,
        would be a big enough slap in your face that someone who is
        already angry at him is likely to strike back "in your defense"
        which is likely to result in a row.
        
        As far as I can see the only winning strategies involve inviting
        both of them. That alone, of course, will not result in there
        being no conflict. To avoid conflict you need the co�peration of
        all of the interested parties--your father and his girlfriend
        and all ofthe people who are upset with them.
        
        In some manner you must explicitly get each of the to agree not
        to cause trouble. I'd say you have to let them all know that she
        is invited, so that no one is surprised. You must also
        explicitly remind them of how important this day is to you and
        that peace is more important than any past transgressions. You
        must make sure that you expect them all to be good despite all
        provocations from the other side and that you are counting on
        them.
        
        Precisely how you do this is a matter of personal style. My own
        style would be to be very firm, to tell them that I hold each of
        them personally responsible for their own actions, and that
        because of the importance of the day that anyone who gets out of
        line will have to leave immediately. Not having complete trust
        in the ability of people to avoid conflict, I would be prepared
        to enforce the good behavior. 
        
        Since I believe that half messures are liable to get you into a
        lot of trouble, I would make sure that the power I wielded in
        the enforcement of good behavior would be undeniable, but not so
        naked as to be provocative. Thus my suggestion that it would not
        be unreasonable to engage a pair of plain clothes off-duty cops.
        Plain clothes so as to not be too intrusive. Two so that they
        out number any single trouble maker or can deal with both sides
        of a two person conflict. Policemen rather than amateurs because
        their power (of arrest) and authority is undeniable.
        
        More important to the essence of my strategy than the particular
        use of policemen, is the impersonal wielding of power on the
        actual day of the wedding. There are too many things for the
        bride and groom to do. The problems need to be entrusted to
        someone else. It may very well be that you have friends or
        relations who are not involved in the conflict and who can be
        sufficiently powerful to enforce the peace.
        
        JimB.

    My daughter is getting married in two weeks, she has asked her brother
    to give her away,  her father walked out seven years ago, called
    four years later and then again last year.  He lives out of the
    country but is coming home for her wedding, he said he will go to
    the church only because he does not want to cause problems.  As
    far as I am concerned he could not possible cause a problem, no
    one would notice wether he was present or not !  This is just another
    attempt to lay the blame on me (that his being their would be a
    problem for me),  I have told my daughter this is her wedding (my
    gift to her) and she could have whom ever she would like, her father
    is most certainly welcome to the church and reception. If he has
    a girlfriend or wife she is also welcome.  This is a day that is
    for my daughter and her future husband, for the day all bitterness
    and angry feelings should be put aside.  My divorce also has many
    difficult thing to deal with.

        I just thought of another type of authority that you could wield
        for enforcing peace at the wedding or reception. You don't say
        whther you are having a church wedding, but as the wedding and
        reception seem to be at separate places, it seems quite
        possible. Although the authority of a plain-clothes cop is
        moderately undeniable a priest (or minisiter), especially in
        full vestments and at a church outranks everybody.
        
        Had I your problems, I would galdly turn over peace-keeping to
        any one of a number of priests (Episcopalean in my case) that I
        know.
        
        With a secular wedding you must rely on friends if you have any
        authoritative enough or something like plain-clothes cops for
        security. But if you've got clergy on hand, they're much better.
        
        JimB.

    JimB -
    
    The wedding is at a Catholic church and the reception at a hall.
    
    I do like the idea of confiding in the priest and using him as
    the buffer if there are conflicts.  He has been involved in this
    and knows my parents as well as a few of my other family members
    so he's aware of the history of this situation.
    
    Thanks for the suggestion.
    
    Cherie
    

    I really don't mean to be flippant - but assuming that your father
    attends the reception - either with or without his girlfriend -
    where are you planning to seat him/them?  At a little table for
    two by themselves?
    
    My ex and I had been divorced 8 years when my daughter was married.
    Though our situation wasn't like yours - we made an effort to be
    more then pleasant to each other and to each other's families -
    after all - it was OUR daughter's day.
    
    Seriously - where are you planning to seat him/them?
    
    

    
    
    I really don't  know where they'd sit.  I imagine my father
    would sit at the head table and his girlfriend would be wherever
    (ladies room, maybe?) ;)
    
    I'd have to give that some thought....I know for sure that she (the
    girlfriend) wouldn't be in direct line of vision of my mother.
    
    Good question...
    
    Cherie
    

         I can only add my opinion.  It is so unfortunate that bad things
    happen in our life.  But if we just keep simple things in mind like
    the fact that these things did happen, and there is truely nothing
    we can do to change it, then we must learn to accept it.  I try
    my best not to give other people the *power* to control my happiness.
    You are embarking on a journey that hopes to be a life of happiness
    with your new spouse and this is what I would be concentrating on
    now.  You have already invited your dad and this would say to me
    that you love him.  I would let it happen as it will and try not
    to *give* the power to others to ruin what should be a joyous occasion.
    
    Good luck and may you have many *more* years of happiness.

    We had a really small head table, with the bridesmaids, the ushers,
    the men who carried the chuppah, and the rabbi.  My parents were
    seated at the middle table next to head table, Paul's mother and
    her relatives at the far left end of the first row of tables, and
    his father and that side of the family at the far right end - where
    the two sides couldn't see each other!  It all held together; they
    were actually civil when they did run into each other during the
    reception (which would NOT have been true if Paul's step-mother
    had been there, I'm nearly certain).

	My wife grew up in a situation where her parents were rather
	abusive to her as she grew up.  We found it best not to include
	them during our wedding.  We didn't find it that there was much
	problem regarding the "slap in the face" mentioned earlier.  Over
	time, such wounds are forgotten, if they ever were strong in the
	first place.

	I think your feelings are much more important in this case.  While
	I love my parents deeply, my relationship with my wife far outranks
	my relationship with my parents.  I would do all that I could to
	make sure this day is the day that you want and feel good about.
	I disagree very strongly with the person who talks about setting
	up the wedding and reception to save face and appear as the noble
	one.  Personally, I doubt if what most people want on their wedding
	day is to feel noble.  That's not the kind of feeling you can look
	back on and be happy about.

	Ultimately, do what is best for you and your spouse.  You have years
	ahead to build those relationships with your father and his SO, and
	it is my opinion that if you want to accomplish this, you will,
	whether your father attends or not, whether his SO attend or not.

True, she doesn't 'owe it to her father'.  BUT it seems that SHE wants HIM
there.  In any relationship, the terms have to be agreeable to both parties; if
not, there is sure to be a ruckus.  If you can't agree to each other's terms,
you're better off to stay apart.

Jim. 

    
    
    Not necessarily, Jim. I do not think he will be doing me any favors
    by attending.  Yes, I do want him there (without the SO) but he
    also wants to be there and he feels very strongly about this.
    
    Haven't worked anything out yet.  It's very frustrating.
    
    Cherie