Conference quark::human_relations-v1

In spite of appearances to the contrary, terrorists are human and 
subject to motivation/demotivation just like you or I. As a 
result, if they were convinced that hi-jacking a plane or killing 
prisoners does not pay, they wouldn't do it.

The first hi-jacking I recall (PLO taking a plane to Algier) paid
off handsomely when Israel unwisely released all prisoners the
terrorists demanded. While Israel had it's own motives (they really
wanted to get rid of the prisoners) it paved the way to the recent
Kuwait murders. 

How to deal with them:

1. Do not give in to their demands. Do not negotiate. Do not 
   respond. Do not even listen.

2. Kill off as many of them as possible.

3. Do the above in ALL hi-jacking cases.

The initial price will be horrendously high. I do not know how firm
I would stand behind these opinions if, say, my daughter or wife
were on board. I realize how difficult they are to carry out. That
does not make them any less correct. Just not realistic. 

-- Ron

    The recommendations in .1 work for money-motivated kidnapping, too.
    Again, what makes sense overall in the long run is not fun to do
    in a particular short-run case.
    
    This is similiar to other issues (such as giving children vaccines):
    a conflict between a focused loss (the wife on the hijacked plane
    or kidnapped or the child killed by an allergic reaction to a vaccine)
    and a general but diffuse gain (fewer hijackings/kidnappings/deaths
    due to disease).  Medicine has lots of such issues.  So does law.
    
    There is no solution in which no innocents get hurt.  How to explain
    _that_ is in itself another difficult problem.
    
    				-John Bishop

Two thoughts I've had on the matter of terrorism:

1)	Would you obey if a person stuck a gun in your face and demanded
	that you (as a jail guard) open up a cell and release a prisoner?

	Or would you refuse on grounds that if you give in, more people
	will take advantage of the effectiveness of brute force with
	guns ?

	I'm assuming most of us would fear enough for our lives and
	give in.

	But what about a terrorist sticking a gun in the face of
	a hostage on an airplane and demanding that a remote
	Kuwaiti jail guard open up some cells and release some
	prisoners ?  Should Kuwait give in ?

	I'm not saying I believe in giving in to hijackers, but it
	does kind of seem like the same situation, only that in one case
	it's YOUR life, and in the other case it's a remote hostage's
	life at stake.

2)	My father had a nice idea.  When hijackers think plane is being
	refueled, actually, sleeping gas is being pumped into the plane,
	and everyone goes to sleep, and police enter the plane and
	carry the hijackers away !

Yes, by the way, the whole issue of having one's life at stake is definitely
a subject for "human relations".

/Eric

re; < Note 498.3 by VIDEO::OSMAN "type video::user$7:[osman]eric.vt240" >

>1)	Would you obey if a person stuck a gun in your face and demanded
>	that you (as a jail guard) open up a cell and release a prisoner?

If I were a jail guard, I would have taken every martial arts class available.  
I would be in such prime physical form that I would be very, very fast and 
clean when I swatted the gun out of his hand and cranked that arm around his 
back.  I would then slam him against the wall and cuff him.  I wouldn't give 
him *time* to think.  (Note; Male gender being used for purpose of writing 
simplicity.)  If, at this point, he threatened that there were other terrorists 
outside who would do such-and-such, I would find a way to make him prove it.  
Hopefully, in this amount of time, other guards would be alerted, and there 
would be some type of backup plan in which a SWAT team would be on-the-scene;
maybe several, depending on terrorist numbers.

In the case of someone who wants violent power using violent means, I say, 
fight fire with fire.  Rationalization isn't going to work.

>	But what about a terrorist sticking a gun in the face of
>	a hostage on an airplane and demanding that a remote
>	Kuwaiti jail guard open up some cells and release some
>	prisoners ?  Should Kuwait give in ?

We'd hopefully be smart enough to rig the situation to make the terrorist think 
that the prisoners had been released, so that the hostage would live (but in 
some cases, the hostages get shot *anyway*, and can you be certain about with
which type of terrorist you are dealing?).  I need more variables.  What does 
the terrorist want, as proof that the prisoners have been released, since, 
after all, he is at a remote location?

>	I'm not saying I believe in giving in to hijackers, but it
>	does kind of seem like the same situation, only that in one case
>	it's YOUR life, and in the other case it's a remote hostage's
>	life at stake.

Personally, I think the bottom line is this;  Does terrorism win out?  Do we 
show the world that brute force/violence are ways to power, or do we stop it?
I don't care if it's my life, or someone else's; one life is too much to lose 
to terrorism.   As a defender, I would risk my life to stop it, though.

>2)	My father had a nice idea.  When hijackers think plane is being
>	refueled, actually, sleeping gas is being pumped into the plane,
>	and everyone goes to sleep, and police enter the plane and
>	carry the hijackers away !

I like that...but the question I have is, what about the cockpit;  Will the 
sleeping gas reach it?

security -

How did the terrorists get the guns aboard? Were there no metal detectors
and xray machines? If these new plastic guns become available, frisking
will become necessary. Open searching of all luggage. A remote control
detonator to a bomb in the cargo section is just as effective as a gun,
although not selective. This would be used by the "martyr for a cause"
radical terrorists. Security guards on all flights?

remote control -

Could the airport tower have a remote control which would disable the plane
without injuring passengers. This could involve an electrical system
short circuit which would not cause structural or fire damage, but
which would render the plane unfliable without extensive repairs (days).
This way, the terrorists couldn't blame the pilots or crew, and would
know that the plane would be crippled the minute anyone knew that it was
a hijack (plane stopped on ground of course!). They have to land sometime.

SWAT -

Surround the plane with weapons experts. No deals. No concessions.
You have one minute to come out with your hands up or we are coming in.
For this to work, _every_ country would have to cooperate and agree not
to aid the terrorists. We need to make airplane hijacking completely
unviable for the terrorists, or it won't work.

It is very much like open warfare. For every hitech terrorist trick there
is a counter weapon (eventually). The alternatives are not very pleasant
for the innocent traveller though (strip search, open luggage, security
clearance, etc.) Casual travel could become impossible unless get tough
policies are implemented at every international airport. Tighter security
may be the only answer, with unarmed martial arts experts for flight
crew. Fly the friendly skies... :+(

    
    
    	re .3 and .4
    
    	> ... pump sleeping gas into the plane.
    
    		Nice idea, and may work. But will work only once.
    	If and when the "terrorist world at large" finds out that
    	they were done in by sleeping gas, you can bet that the next
    	hijacking team will add gas masks to their shopping list.
    	After all, if they can get rifles and bombs on board, a gas
    	mask won't be any more difficult to have as standard equipment.
    
    				Kevin

RE: .4

    Your daughter is walking down on a deserted street.  She had just taken
    out $100.00 from the cash mahcine.  Suddenly she has encountered a
    person pointing a gun at her and demanding all her money. 
    
    Since she is *your* daughter, she is determined not to give in. She
    decides to disable her attacker.  She reaches for a bottle of mace in
    the purse. 
    
    Later she is found with a bullet in her head and a hand clutched around
    the bottle of mace.
    
    - Vikas

re; < Note 498.7 by ANGORA::ZARLENGA "Give me liberty or give me debts" >

>    	You've been watching too much TV.

I knew someone would say that.  No, I haven't been watching too much TV.  I 
think martial arts make you very fast, aware of your center, fast-thinking.  
Catch the terrorist before he has time to think.

    re. sleeping gas. I find it difficult to believe this would even
    come close to working as there is no connection between the fuel
    tanks and the cabin. Also sleeping gas in the general area would
    be ineffective if the cabin doors were closed as the cabin is airtight.
    
    re. plastic guns requiring frisking. All metal detectors are capible
    of detecting the plastic composite gun as they do contain a significant
    amount of steel provided the operator is awake and paying attention.
    Said gun is simply a plastic body around steel barrel,main spring,clip
    or magazine,various screws,ect. I have an x-ray photo of the exact
    gun in question and in noway can it be mistaken for anything else
    but a gun.
    The bogus point that they cannot be detected is 100% false and
    intentional truth twisting by the anti-gun groups in an effort
    to gain the support of the unknowing and uninformed. I see it has
    worked. It is important we all check out these so called facts before
    we jump on the bandwagon. Dont tell me to take it to soap as I'm
    not fighting a soap cause but rather providing truth were it is
    needed. I intend no flames to anyone but get very tired of reading
    twisted truths when facts are availible and not used.
    
    Now my opinion. If all known terrorists were shot on sight they
    wouldent be a bargain token for take my to libia(fill_in_your_favorite
    destination) demands. I believe an all out war on terrorism is the
    only way to solve the problem if this means giving them their demands
    and then blowing them out of the air so be it. I was nearly on a
    hijacked flight in 1985 had we not changed our plans to go to cyprus
    and left from rome instead I would have been on a hijacked flight.
    
    -j
    

    An *all* plastic gun may be theoretically possible (how they'll
    make plastic springs and chambers capable of withstanding 20000
    PSI I don't know) but that gun will be very expensive. 
                                           ----
    
    

    Back to *act(s)* of terrorism.
    
    I just read the story of KAL858 in the May Reader's Digest. This is the
    flight that simply disappeared over the Persian Gulf. It was bombed
    by N.Korean agents. An older man and a young woman pretending to be
    Japanese. The detonator looked like a pocket transistor radio. It had
    a small amount of plastic explosive. It was carried in a plastic bag
    along with a liqour bottle. The liquor bottle contained an explosive
    liquid. This bombing was almost thwarted by airport security. They
    took away the batteries in the radio. Problem was, that the batteries
    were returned during a stopover and the old man was allowed to keep
    them when he raised a stink upon re-boarding. They placed the bag in
    the overhead compartment and left it there at the next stopover. The
    point, pay attention to the people around you! Imagine the agent's
    chagrin if some other passenger noticed that they *forgot* their
    bag when getting off. Especially when travelling, take note of
    suspicious behavior around you. If you fail to notice your
    surroundings, or "don't want to get involved" by reporting suspicious
    behaviour, it could be your last trip.
    
    Bob Mc