Conference quark::human_relations-v1

hmmm, there was (still is I believe) a group in Island Pond in the
Northeast Kingdom that was raided by the State Police a while back.
It was believed that the children were being abused so they went in
and took them away. If I remember correctly someone decided the raid
was unconstitutional or some such thing and the children were sent back.
I don't know if this is the same group or not but I would stay away
from these folks. At any rate, there's a similr note around 89 or so
in UCOUNT::VERMONT (KP7 stuff) that you may want to check out. Perhaps
someone living there can shed some light.

Jenna

    A couple of years ago, the The Valley Advocate had a listing and
    article of groups with alternative lifestyles, but I don't 
    remember this one mentioned.  They did quite a few in New England
    too.  
    
    16 is an impressionistic age and a very vulnerable one. More than
    the reasons for joining the group are the reasons for leaving the
    existing one.  Done with reason and full understanding of the world
    around oneself (or least partial reason) is much better than entering
    with a naive view of the world.
    
    The only alternative lifestyle groups I am familiar with were in
    the Southwest where being different was a way of life back twenty
    years ago.  
    
    The danger now is that very few things seem to be what they really
    are.  Love, peace, home education and even female subservience can 
    be practiced in this lifestyle as well as any other!   

    My own experience was with a 'commune' within society. I met them
    whilst at University (I was 18, first time away from home). A friend
    from the company I worked for introduced me to them. He never mentioned
    his association with any groups until I got to University. 
    
    I went in slowly, accepting the wide open friendship they offered, the
    parties they held and so on. They made it look like a wonderful world. 
    
    They weren't a commune as such, but there was an open invitation to
    live with a small group of them, to learn from them, and so on. 
    
    I broke away eventually, when I went home for the summer holiday. I
    started to have doubts about their beliefs. When I went back, and
    refused to have anything to do with them, THATS when the threats
    started. 
    
    That was ten years ago. An incident occured within that group that had
    me very frightened and worried for a considerable period of time. It's
    really only recently in the last year with therapy I have finally put
    my fears to rest. 
    
    I do not know anything about this group, all I can say is *BEWARE*.
    I don't know what advice to give. I was hell bent on getting involved
    with the group at the time, and nothing would have changed my mind.
    It's only now, with hindsight, I can see what happened. The fact
    that the group messed up my life for a lengthy period is something
    I'll have to live with.

    Hopefully this group is nothing like the one I met.    

    Pete.

    Actually, I guess I can give some obvious advice:
    
    o	Does the group allow family access? Can any member of her family
    	meet her, is she free to go and come as she chooses?
    
    o	How secretive is the group? Are outsiders discouraged from prying?
    
    o	Will she be allowed to contrast what she's taught within the
    	group with the outside world? So that she can make up her own
    	mind what is right and wrong?
    
    If the group is secretive, does deny family access, refuses contact
    with the outside world, insisting only THEY know what's right and
    wrong, then I'd stay away from them.
    
    I only wish I had.
    
    Pete.

    
    re: .0
    
    I watched that evening news special which focused on this commune
    as well.  If I'm not mistaken, there was an attempt to take the
    children from this commune.  Apparently there was reason to believe
    that the children were being abused.
    
    I can't remember all the facts on the news story, but I seem to
    remember the children were removed and a Vermont judge ruled that
    these children were to be returned to their parents.  Again, I'm
    not positive, but I seem to recall something about insufficient
    evidence.  
    
    Also, from the news story I saw, I had the impression people from
    the outside were not welcome.  This was one reason for insufficient
    evidence (no one had been inside to actually "see" a child being
    abused).
    
    I would be very leary of this commune.  Personally, I would do everything
    possible to sway her from this path.
    
    Good Luck to your friend.
    
     - Beckie

    Try contacting the local FBI, they maybe interested in watching/helping
    you. There is alot of conditioning of the youth before and during
    her stay. There has been some success in educating young people
    long before they join and there for keeping them home on the farm,
    as to say. Not only do you have these folks to watch out for, but
    there is a chapter of Moonies in Gloster, the Harra Christners,
    and a host of others. It is not easy, I fear the same fates for
    my child as you do for yours. It is easy for a young person to join
    for many feel that they are alone in the world and need this support
    of others, other than Mom and Dad... 
    
    George
    

    Re: .6
    
>    It is easy for a young person to join for many feel that they are alone
>    in the world and need this support of others, other than Mom and Dad... 

    I joined 'cos they offered a friendly atmosphere. It's true they
    were supportive... more so than my parents.
    
    I was also looking for 'something' and I thought I found the 'answer'
    in that group... instead in the end I found more questions. Took me a
    long time before I had the courage to defy the groups teachings (they
    told if I left I'd go to hell). 
    
    Pete.

There is a note on Communities in HYDRA::HOLISTIC, note 28 on communes. There is
a commune called Sirius in Shutebury MA which did a study of many communities,
recently for a book on communities.  I suggest that you call them at
413-259-1251 at see what they know of it. 

There is a guideline floating around for recognizing cults that should be
usefull in this instance, I will try to find it.

I myself enjoy a community lifestyle.  However, I have not found one I liked
since moving from MI, but there are plenty I have not seen.  I would like to
continue working for DEC.

I think that it is a telling point Pete makes in .7, that outside organizations
often seem more supportive then parents. 

Feel free to contact me...

Jim YODA::BARANSKI

    We as parents, are building the perfect utopia for our childern
    to live in. Sometimes in our building, we forget to give that attention
    to the children or find that the children have other interest that
    will not allow them to conform to our utopia. And either we force
    them into a corner from neglect or conformity. I see how communes
    can be benificial in our society. I can see how parents and children
    can become bitter enimies too. 
    
    George

Brainwashing can take place by the use of these techniques;

Reform dietary laws and habits; cut down drastically on amount of food 
consumed; leave out many food types, sticking to only one or two (grains or 
grains and vegetables are often the ones to which the diet is narrowed down.  
This is OK if you're a Zen macrobiotic and were doing it on purpose.  However, 
to have it done *to* you, is something else, again).

Reform sleep habits so that brainwashee is getting 1/3 to 2/3 less sleep than 
he/she normally gets.

Reinforce the ideas that you want to pump in to the mind; let the brainwashee 
talk with you at first so that you can learn how he/she talks (expressions, 
meanings, peculiarities); gain his/her trust by making it seem as though you 
are "only here to help", then figure out how to get from where his/her head is, 
to where you want for it to be; use his/her language; gradually manipulate 
thought; say many times, over and over again, the paramount ideas of the new 
philosophy which you want to be believed.

Watch out for these techniques.

    I went camping in that town 7 years ago before anything hit the
    news.  All I remember is that the people in the town were looking
    for ways to get out.  That town had a weird attitude about itself.
    The businesses are mostly run by group members.  I recall, that
    while sitting in the town's pizza shop, a waitress came up to our
    table and pleaded with us [3 in the group] to take her away.  We waited
    for her at our camp site the next morning but she never showed.
    Perhaps she changed or  mind or someone changed it for her, we don't
    know.
        
    The area is beautiful - been meaning to camp at the state park again
    but since the news story reinforced what I knew and felt, my return
    trip may take a lot while longer.

    re .11
    Please...
    I've been going to Island Pond for fifteen years. Yes, there is
    a group of "religious fanatics" who live there. I don't associate
    with these people. The town's people are quite normal. I have a
    pretty strong feeling that this waitress was having a good joke
    on you. The pizza shop you refer to is not owned by the religious
    group. The businesses are NOT mostly run by group members. Anyone
    who thinks so, doesn't know about the town. This religious sect
    has given the town a bad name that it doesn't deserve. 
    Anyone who is familiar with the town understands this. If you'd
    like to enjoy camping in a beautiful environment, try it!
    I think you'll find that the majority of it's inhabitants are just
    like us, if you can call us normal.
    Rick Shaw..
    
    

re; < Note 478.12 by AKOV68::SHAW >

   >I have a
   >pretty strong feeling that this waitress was having a good joke
   >on you. 

I wonder if that isn't Island Pond's way of protecting itself through 
discouraging touristing through that area??

    Absolutely not!! The residents understand that tourism brings dollars.
    What they don't really like is "flatlanders" buying up large amounts
    of property. 
    

re; < Note 478.14 by AKOV88::SHAW >

>-< I doubt it >-Absolutely not!! 

Well, do you doubt it, or know it for certain?

>The residents understand that tourism brings dollars.

So do the residents of Colorado, but an ever-increasing-in-popularity bumper 
sticker reads, "Welcome To Colorado - Now Go Home".  There seems to be a level 
of discouragement for people to come and visit, because visitors often become 
residents, as you said below;

>    What they don't really like is "flatlanders" buying up large amounts
>    of property. 

Perhaps the woman in question was one of the residents who felt that visitors 
come, and then buy up large amounts of property, so better to not have 
visitors, in the first place, revenue, or no revenue.  Just a thought.

    As the saying goes... Nothing is certain but death and taxes.
    While I don't know that for certain, I feel pretty comfortable that
    the townspeople on the whole do appreciate tourism dollars. The
    reason I responded in the first place, is I don't like people
    offering far reaching conclusions when their knowledge is so
    pathetically thin. I felt it only fair, to offer my observations
    of this economically depressed, beautiful area. 
    Regards..
    

Ah yes, but hypothesizing has led to many an interesting testing-of-theory, 
whereas assumption without other consideration, and deeming of hypothesis as 
"pathetically thin", or otherwise unsavory, has often led nowhere.

    Let's assume, considering you're writing from Colorado, that you haven't
    got the slightest inkling of knowledge, pertaining to Island Pond.
    Would that be an accurate assumption?
    
    Regards..
    

Never been to Island Pond; congratulations on your hypothesis; it's correct!

Have studied human nature quite a bit, though, and noticed a trend for more 
quiet towns, smaller towns, mountain towns, etc, to want to stay that way.  
People are in to getting away from the crowds, for the most part, and in 
seeking such places, often end up defeating the purpose of "getting away", 
i.e., what was once a small, quiet town starts to develop more than anyone 
wanted.  Therefore, you don't always find that everyone wants to give a great 
impression of the town, i.e., the waitress who said she needed help getting 
away.  Of course, different folks have different ways of going about things, 
and of course, we all have different ways of thinking.  Some of us like to 
stick with things that we know for certain; others among us like to consider 
the realm of possibilities.  I don't see why one group of thinkers has to get 
so irritated with the other group; we all make up the world, after all, and I 
think we can have our differences without trying to make the other side look 
worse.  Heck, if your point is so good, you won't *have* to denounce the point 
of the other guy!

    I considered it important enough to slam the less informed opinion.
    I think you're quite correct, in that some small towns want to stay
    small. Let's drop it and move on.......
    

Someone called the Island Pond Area "economically depressed"...  Is that really
true?  Do they really lack the 'necessities' of life we have?  Do they want
them?  If they don't, are they still 'economically depressed'?

It's like calling 'poor' people in developing nations 'economically depressed'.
Sure, $$$wise, they are poor.  But who cares when it's warm all the time, and
all you have to do for food is climb a tree? 

Ecomonically depressed isn't always so bad...

JMB

    I believe this topic is straying rather far from the original note.
    Let's get back on track, please.
    
    Tamzen, Co-moderator